Smorello87
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November 2018
editWelcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, your addition of one or more external links to the page Larry Livermore has been reverted.
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Exclamation in Lookout Records
editHi there. Regarding these edits, I think there's a case to be made for both variations of the name (with and without the exclamation point). I've been working on articles about the label, its discography, and about Livermore in my userspace...well, I worked on them in 2017 and have let them sit unedited for several years, but with the current "stay at home" situation I intend to revisit them:
- User:IllaZilla/Larry Livermore
- User:IllaZilla/Lookout! Records
- User:IllaZilla/Lookout! Records discography
I understand from your edit summaries that you are in contact with Livermore and he's said that there's no exclamation point in the label's name, but in looking at the releases themselves (both in my own collection and looking at covert art on Discogs) many of them use the exclamation point in the name, especially if they're using the original logo (with the eyes and the grin). It appears that starting in about '94/'95, when they started changing up the logo, they'd either use or not use an exclamation point...it seems to vary quite a bit. Because of this, I'd probably leave it out of the article title but mention it in the lead sentence "sometimes written with an exclamation point at Lookout! Records)". The article title should probably match however the name of the business was listed in any legal papers it may have had, like articles of incorporation or something like that. What do you think? --IllaZilla (talk) 22:00, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry if this is bothersome, feel free to ignore, but I looked into this more and with your interest in the subject I wonder if you have further insight. My main sources are Livermore's two memoirs (Spy Rock Memories and How to Ru(i)n a Record Label) and Kevin Prested's Punk USA, which I assume you're familiar with. I haven't found anything in those sources that describes how/if Livermore and Hayes set up the company in the beginning (legally and tax-wise, I mean), but in Ru(i)n Livermore does describe how, when Hayes exited the label at the end of 1989, he signed papers with the state and county to assume sole responsibility for paying taxes and filing legal forms for Lookout (p. 87), so I presume there must have been some paperwork on file before that in both their names. On page 212 he writes about completing the paperwork in 1995 to turn Lookout into an LLC...maybe there are articles of incorporation that could be looked up to see whether the exclamation point was used in the company's name on those. As I mentioned above, the label used various logos over the years; probably the most recognizable is the original "smiley face" one that does use the exclamation point. The other one I see the most on (mostly mid- to late-'90s) releases is the "moving men" logo that doesn't have the exclamation point. But then the more businesslike logo they used in the early '00s (the square one with the big "L", little "r") does have the exclamation point. I did a quick survey of my record collection and it's a fairly even split between exclamation/no exclamation, both in the logo and in the label's business address.
- Diving further down the rabbit hole, I searched the US Patent & Trademark Office and found two records for Lookout Records: The first was filed in August '96 for the word mark "Lookout Records" (no exclamation), but the owner/registrant is "Lookout! Records LLC Limited Liability Company" (note the exclamation) at the Adeline Street address (which is weird, because the company didn't move to that address until early 2000, per Prested p. 168...maybe they updated their address with the P&T Office at some point). This trademark was canceled in June 2008, during the time the label was inactive but hadn't been fully shuttered yet. The second record was filed in August 2012 for the word mark "Lookout! Records" (with exclamation) and for the original smiley face logo, by Hopeless Records. Prested notes in his book (p. 191) that Hopeless purchased ownership of the remaining Lookout IP and the rights to use the name, but haven't made use of them (as of 2014...I haven't heard of them making use of these assets at all in the years since). Livermore was asked about this in 2016 and said "I found it completely baffling, since at least for as long as I was at Lookout, we never even had a trademark. So I have no idea if the people who took over Lookout after I left created a trademark and then sold it, or if Hopeless just noticed that nobody owned the trademark so they pounced on it and claimed it, or what." Since he resigned in '97, I presume that others involved with the label (e.g. Chris Appelgren, Patrick Hynes, Molly Newman, Cathy Bauer) may have filed for the trademark and he wasn't aware. Anyway, these records don't seem to help clarify the exclamation/no exclamation issue much. --IllaZilla (talk) 00:23, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
- I also did a business search on the CA Secretary of State website (go here, check "LP/LLC name" and search "lookout records") and found the LLC Articles of Organization for the company. The original, filed May 12, 1995 by Lawrence Hayes (Livermore) gives the company name as "Lookout Records LLC" (no exclamation). A renewal, filed April 16, 2001 by Chris Appelgren, also gives the name as "Lookout Records LLC" and names Appelgren, Molly Neuman, and Catherine Bauer as the managers & members. Another renewal, filed February 18, 2003 by bookkeeper Andy Asp, also gives the name as "Lookout Records LLC". --IllaZilla (talk) 01:51, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
- My apologies, I'm just noticing your messages now. Yes, I checked with Larry again, and he said that all official paperwork was filed without an exclamation point, at least until he was a partner of the label (should be around 1997?). And thank you for taking the time to unearth that information! --smorello87