User talk:Herzen/Archive 2

May 2014

Please do not attack other editors, as you did on Talk:Siege of Sloviansk. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. You make valid points, but you've got to do it without attacking other editors. RGloucester — ☎ 02:02, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Please do not introduce incorrect information into articles, as you did to 2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine. Your edits appear to be vandalism and have been reverted. If you believe the information you added was correct, please cite references or sources or discuss the changes on the article's talk page before making them again. If you would like to experiment, use the sandbox. As seen here where you added content not mentioned by either source, and then defended the move despite being entirely made up by yourself. Львівське (говорити) 00:58, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Could you help me in translation?

[1] It seems that there were several options in this poll, but only two were mentioned.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 20:03, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions notification

Please carefully read this information:

The Arbitration Committee has authorised discretionary sanctions to be used for pages regarding Eastern Europe, a topic which you have edited. The Committee's decision is here.

Discretionary sanctions is a system of conduct regulation designed to minimize disruption to controversial topics. This means uninvolved administrators can impose sanctions for edits relating to the topic that do not adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, our standards of behavior, or relevant policies. Administrators may impose sanctions such as editing restrictions, bans, or blocks. This message is to notify you sanctions are authorised for the topic you are editing. Before continuing to edit this topic, please familiarise yourself with the discretionary sanctions system. Don't hesitate to contact me or another editor if you have any questions.

This message is informational only and does not imply misconduct regarding your contributions to date.

Because of your highly offensive and WP:BATTLEGROUND comments here: [2].Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:57, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

September 2014

Your recent editing history at Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.

To avoid being blocked, instead of reverting please consider using the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection. Stickee (talk) 23:10, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry...

...about that deletion at Talk:Malaysia Airlines Flight 17. It certainly wasn't intended. No idea how it happened. HiLo48 (talk) 05:15, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Overthrow of government

Regarding your change[3]. There was no "overthrow of government" in Ukraine, either legal or not. The current parliament was elected in 2012 and has not changed since then. On the other hand, the separatist movement is definitely anti-Ukrainian, it's difficult to describe it differently if the only terms separatist and Russian media use to describe Ukrainian government are "fascist hunta" etc. Pawel Krawczyk (talk) 12:49, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Contact

My mail is dolficonta@hotmail.com (same as for facebook)... I've also given it to Iryna Harpy who is a quite moderate respectable person. If you wish, join me. Mondolkiri1 (talk) 04:58, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

The POV editors are trying to ban me for NPOV edits of Ukraine conflict entries

I notice that you're an NPOV editor when it comes to Ukraine conflict Wikipedia entries. I am currently under severe attack -- see Haberstr -- for also being an NPOV editor of Ukraine conflict entries. Any comment or support at the Arbitration will be greatly appreciated! Maybe if enough of us protest the obvious, anti-Wikipedia bias, we'll get things moving in the right direction.Haberstr (talk) 00:19, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

3RR Violation

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Please be particularly aware that Wikipedia's policy on edit warring states:

1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made.
2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing.

You know where. You've gone over 3 reverts. Please self revert. Volunteer Marek  03:32, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Notice of Edit warring noticeboard discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. Thank you. Stickee (talk) 03:51, 13 October 2014 (UTC

Hi Herzen please get out of the war in Donbass Russian troops please no russian troops in donbass kiev is a kiev lying there Russian troops in donbass --91.134.65.79 (talk) 17:17, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

So, what you know and what you do not know? (concerning to my positions)

Well, I haven't started to edit on Wikipedia about Ukraine or Russia, honestly. I started to edit it about the Portuguese economy and Turkish Airlines. And when I noticed that the Euromaidan people in Ukraine were so mad in love about the EU, when we, here, in Portugal, in Greece, Spain, Italy, Cyprus, and also in Ireland, are sufferering because of EU, I thought: thouse guys must be mad! And then I saw EU officials going there to support the Euromaidan!... And then, I made my mind: OK... this guys are being manipulated by greedy eurocrats in Brussels, under "Nazi following orders" from Berlin! And I got more mad when I saw all those people burnt by neo-nazis in Odessa! But!... Then I saw a lot of anti-semitic, very racist conspirational opinions on RT (comments), and a lot of non-sense edits on Wikipedia, from both sides! And I thought... No, both sides have problems here, and they must resolve it. So... I think that, if the differences are so great that they can reach that "Fox-News" style extravaganza, the best way is to have fair and truly (not commanded by USA) independently scrutinized referenda in Crimea and in Donbass! That's the solution! And, as I told, I continue to support the peaceful reunification of Cyprus through referendums, on both sides, and the self-determination of peoples when they're majoritary in certain regions. Mondolkiri1 (talk) 03:32, 11 October 2014 (Lisbon/London/Dublin/Casablanca Time)

@Mondolkiri1: Thank you for that explanation. The only reservation I have about that recent edit to your user page is that you imply that the Crimean independence referendum was not valide. No one seriously questions that the result accurately reflects the will of the people. When it comes to the DNR and LNR independence referendums, I will grant that they were carried out in the middle of a military conflict, so they were not completely without problems.

As for antisemitism, it is a problem in western Ukraine, but not in eastern Ukraine (or Russia, for that matter). I actually found a quote from a Ukrainian rabbi saying exactly that and put it in the DNR article where that article goes on and on about that anti-semitic leaflet hoax, but my edit was reverted, of course.

I agree with you about Cyprus. That Turkey continues an illegal occupation should be a major scandal, but since it's a NATO member, it's allowed to get away with it.

I don't visit RT very much, since I prefer to read the Russian media in Russian. As for "non-sense edits", I would say there are about ten times as many made by the Maidan sympathizers then by the Novorossia sympathizers. Nevertheless, I think that recently I have finally gotten used to dealing with editors with pretty much all points of view when it comes to the Ukrainian articles.

Finally, here is a news site about Russia that was recently set up: Russia Insider. It was started by an American investment banker who lives and works in Moscow. The purpose is to counter the anti-Russian propaganda constantly spewed out by Western media, without being financed by the Russian government.

I very much appreciate the contributions you make to the Ukrainian articles. (I think that editors dealing with this subject have calmed down somewhat since the start of the nominal cease fire.) – Herzen (talk) 03:12, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Whatever what your opinions about Turkey are, don't forget that that Turkey is also an Eursasian country, like Russia, like it or not! I was sincerely shocked about the inaction of Turkey in Kobane, in the Syrian-Turkish border, just because they were Kurds, which made me even more sympathyzer of the Kurdish independence movement,... and after this shocking attitude, also in Turkey! If they don't regard the Kurds as Turks, why should the Kurds belong to Turkey, after all? But remember! The Turks are also Eurasians! And I'm Latin. I don't identify myself with the EU. I ideltufy myself more with Moldova, Angola, Cape Verde, Brazil, Guatemala or the Phillipines than with Germany! Mondolkiri1 (talk) 04:29, 11 October 2014 (Lisbon/London/Dublin/Casablanca Time)

@Mondolkiri1: That's an interesting list of countries! Turkey may be part of Eurasia, but it is certainly not European. European countries are Christian, virtually by definiton; Turkey is Muslim. Nothing Turkey does can surprise me: Erdogan is an Islamist. – Herzen (talk) 03:53, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Well. I'm actually disgusted about Erdogan's inaction in Kobane, and that directs me more to a Kurdish independence movement, not only in Iraq, but also in Turkey. I know Turkey, I know nice Turkish people, but they're not represented by this government! Well, as a couple of people don't represent the country as a whole, as this is the Turkish reaction, for sure, I'm for the Kurdish self-determination, in the Kurdish majority regions, and in the Alevi region of Tunceli. Now, this Eurasian issue is very complicated. Because: Some countries or regions regard themselves as Eurasians (including Mongolia!). Others (including Chechnya), don't regard themselves as Eurasians. Turkey and Ruassia certainly regard themselves as Eurasians. The official religions of Russia are: Orthodox Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Judaism. Turkey doesn't have any official religion. Now... Why don't you join in Baku, discuss your differences and the major threats above them, and fight against the germanic eurocrats that have destroyed the latin, greek and celtic Europe in the last few years? (I don't think Erdogan is a crazy Islamist, by the way, I pay more attention to the Portuhueses and Italian news than to the Russian version of the Fox News, which is RT) Mondolkiri1 (talk) 05:42, 11 October 2014 (Lisbon/London/Dublin/Casablanca Time)

Userboxes concerning to Crimea and Donbass (for my userpage, and others who eventually agree with them)

Hi Herzen, I'd like to create 2 userboxes on my userpage, supporting the right of self-determination of Crimea and Donbass. I haven't figured it out yet (I've been an editor for less than a year, so, I'm still getting acquainted to it). Do you know, how to create them? Thanks for your attention! (By the way, I'm glad to meet someone who's (I'd hope, but I'm not sure) for the Crimean people and the Donbass people, instead of just being for the Western (USA and Eurocrats) and Russian imperialist desires that have already cost so many civilian lifes in Donbass.Mondolkiri1 (talk) 23:43, 15 October 2014 (Lisbon/London/Dublin/Casablanca Time)

Hi Herzen,

I have a difficulty following the argument on the talk page, but as for the BBC video, there was one which got deleted and then restored

http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/blogs/2014/07/140725_blog_editors_bbc_story_republished

BR, Usernick (talk) 01:04, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Reply

Hi Herzen, I did get the email, but I will not use my email account for the purposes of Wikipedia. Email, phone, Skype, all these things were invented to improve the lives of their owners, but whenever the phone rings, an email arrives, Skype sirens, what do we do? We drop everything we're doing and jump to it! An email account is a convenience, and I like to keep it strictly for MY convenience - tough luck anyone else LOL! No offence.

There's no need for spin off into bilateral exchanges, the Talk page is fine and I have already set out my views on it on the Talk page (in Forgive us Netherlands). I didn't pull any punches while staying polite. Do read if you have about 10 hours to spare (joke, it's long, but not 10 hours long).

I've looked at your "systemic error" theory, and I don't think there is a systemic problem - the Wikipedia policy is fine, the problem is it's not being followed. If an admin can be got to enforce what the Core policy says, the article will become neutral.

Re last sentence of your email, your terminology is out of order, I was saddened to see you use it. Good luck, Tennispompom (talk) 22:26, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

@Tennispompom: I said that there is systemic bias in the Ukrainian articles. I did not say that there is any problem with Wikipedia policy. I can't think of a more sensible policy for an encyclopedia written by anonymous editors who are not expected to be experts.

I guess you are not a fan of Monty Python, and that Monty Python make you sad. – Herzen (talk) 22:37, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Aha - Ukraine articles! I've been avoiding them like the plague!

Love Monty Python! Can't recall the exact words, something about an instruction to line up against that wall over there, the hell or purgatory sketch? I've forgotten most of the details now. Humour is allowed some leeway, and Monty Python was in the 70's - very different times. Perhaps we should go on the MH17 talk page and sing Eric the Half a Bee as a duet? Would be most apt don't you think? Half the article "... must ipso facto half not be." Tennispompom (talk) 23:12, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Whoops - that should have been Rowan Atkinson, not Python! There is a youtube version "welcome to hell", but it's been cleaned up. Tennispompom (talk) 00:01, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

@Tennispompom: I've never heard of Rowan Atkinson. Like most Americans, I didn't get into much British TV comedy besides Monty Python. – Herzen (talk) 00:13, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

You, Herzen, and Iryna Harpy... I've worked with both Ukrainian-speaking and Russian-speaking Ukrainians. And I know that the relationship between them is not optimal. From my point of view, this unhealthy relationship has brought Ukrainians and Russians (either Ukrainian citizens or Russian citizens) to a war. And I think is abysmal, since my own neighbours and cousins (as a Portuguese) are the Spaniards and the Brazilians, with whom I'd find anecdotal, at least, to have a war with them. I think that Western Ukrainians were too much deluded by Eurocrats (in order to think that they'd be in paradise if they'd join the EU... but as for us in Portugal, for Greece, Spain, Ireland, Italy, Cyprus, Hungary, etc... it wasn't just as wonderful as that, while Norway, Switzerland, even Turkey, have performed amazingly well outside EU). The Eastern Ukrainians (mainly in Crimea and Donbass) don't feel that way. The present situation in Ukraine is a result of forced external powers, it has nothing to do with the interests of the Ukrainian people, in opinion! And those external powers are either Russia!, Brussels, Germany and USA, which wants to rule all over the places! I'm sorry for you, Iryna, since you're Ukrainian, and I've loved every Ukrainian person that I've met, but that's the reality. I'd suggest that Ukraine would follow a Turkish way, between the Western and the Eastern world, but is it possible? (not to subject to Russia, obviously, as Azerbaijan hasn't subjected to Russia, by the way... it held its head high...though it's a dictatorship, but that's not the point). Mondolkiri1 (talk) 23:41, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

It's not just "Ukrainian-speaking and Russian-speaking Ukrainians": you can't leave Russians out of it. The relationship between eastern and western Ukrainians is "not optimal" because western Ukrainians think that eastern Ukrainians are not really Ukrainian because the latter identify with Russia. What is going on in Ukraine is exactly what happened in Iraq: division along religious, ethnic, or sectarian lines was created where it did not exist before. This is an old technique of AngloAmerican imperialism. And I don't know why you keep on putting Russia on the same level as Brussels, Germany and USA. The only one of these four who cares about the Ukrainian people is the Russian government. The Ukrainian government sends Ukrainian men to their deaths with wild abandon and, imposing brutal austerity measures, and letting letting foreign corporations own natural resources which belong to the Ukrainian people. The last is another thing that eastern Ukrainians don't like about the present Kiev government. – Herzen (talk) 23:58, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

I came very close to writing a treatise on the subject as a response. Rather than do so, I choose not to make any assertions about Western Ukrainian chauvinism. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:09, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

@Iryna Harpy: Well, I wouldn't do it anywhere but on my Talk page. In any case, Mondolkiri1 raised the subject. By the way, since you live in Australia, I might as well point you to a Talk section I started for an Australian article. – Herzen (talk) 00:23, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

I guess that was to Iryna... Though the place where anyone lives is not important at all! Iryna Harpy is from Ukrainian descent! (Zaporozhian Cossacks, close to the Dniepr River!))! And I'm from Napoleonic descent... descendant from a Napoleonic Colonel... but yes, I consider myself as a Napoleonic descendent (Liberal Revolution of 1820), and I'm not ashamed of it. Now... Where are you from @Herzen: ? Would you like to be bullied about it? Honestly! You're bullying Iryna and that's absolutely unacceptable| Mondolkiri1 (talk) 00:43, 23 October 2014 (UTC) 01.43 (Lisbon/Dublin/Casablanca/London Time)

@Mondolkiri1: Here is what the article you link to says: "Today, most of the modern descendants of the Zaporozhians, the Kuban Cossacks, remain loyal towards Russia". Also, no Cossacks are western Ukrainians, and we were talking about western Ukrainians. In any case, I think that Iryna Harpy and I understand each other, so no, I was not bullying her. – Herzen (talk) 02:11, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Response in your Talk Page... By the way, you, me, and even more the very respectful Ukrainian Iryna Harpy are all victims (and eventually responsible, but Iryna is the least of all of us) of this POV editing concerning to Ukrainian related articles. Mondolkiri1 (talk) 03:49, 24 October 2014 (Lisbon/Dublin/Casablanca/London Time)

Maybe by mistake I wrote some stuff in your own Talk Page, rather than here, but, the point is: what I wrote is what I think (and I wouldn't write here as a forum topic)... Now, what you think about Iryna Harpy or not is up to you! I won't be the one to say that the Cossacks are from Western Ukraine, how that is relevant or not and how many of them ended up fighting for the pro-Russian side in this war! This is just pathetic! We here in Portugal have crossed this line with Spain in 1668! And you there haven't crossed it in 2014! Find a way to cross it! Mondolkiri1 (talk) 03:59, 24 October 2014 (Lisbon/Dublin/Casablanca/London Time)

Sorry, I can't make any sense of what you wrote. If you want to understand the Ukraine, here is an Anglophone blog that helps with that. (Sorry, there are French and German versions, but so far, no Spanish version, although Spaniards do fight on the sides of the Novorossians, because what has happened in Ukraine reminds them of the Spanish Civil War.) – Herzen (talk) 05:49, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Apologies, but I haven't had time to respond to any of the chat here as I'm about to go on holiday for a week and just want to tidy a couple of things before I go.

I'm keeping out of the Whitlam article for the moment, Herzen. There's a serious lack of balance between his being almost mythologised and the reality of his term (although I was one of the students who used to paint "Remember, remember the 11th of November, 1975!" on walls as my 'erhem' objection to the monarchy having any real representation in Australian politics, much less the fact that a Governor General could dismiss an elected government).

As regards my heritage, Mondolkiri1 is correct. My family was anti-monarchist and anti Russian Imperialism. I think you might have to brush up on your history because I have nothing to do with the Kuban Cossacks. After the razing of Sich, the Hetmanate continued for some time, and more Cossack families left than stayed and to be shoved off to Kuban, plus were prepared to swear allegiance to the Russian Tsar. Kuban Cossacks also have mixed allegiances. Many consider themselves to be Ukrainian and can trace their ancestry to Ukraine (plus the older generation still speak Balachka, although the younger generation want to be Russian and think it uncool to have anything to do with their old ways). --Iryna Harpy (talk) 02:39, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

@Iryna Harpy: Thank you so much for taking the time to "tidy up" before you head off. I enjoyed working a tiny bit on the Whitlam article, because controversial matters get discussed so much more coolly there. And I do think the one small edit I made to that article made it more balanced. Apparently, Australian editors were not willing to make that edit, even though it had been discussed.

As for Cossacks, Ukraine, and Russia, I was basing myself not on "my history", but on the WP article that Mondolkiri1 linked to. So maybe you need to fix that article? The only claim I made based on "OR" was that no Cossacks are western Ukrainians. Is that not the case? Enjoy your holiday, Herzen (talk) 03:07, 26 October 2014 (UTC).

Nope, Cossacks were not western Ukrainian (although they did travel there for a few skirmishes against the Poles). They were based in the Eastern Slavic heartland (although there were Cossacks on the Hungarian borderland later in the piece)... and, yes, those articles need some major overhauls, but they're also subject to massive POV pushes. I'm just about to leave my 'on holiday' message on my user and talk pages, then I'm packing. Thanks for the good wishes! I intend to have a Wikipedia-free week. Yay! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:29, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Concerning to your considerations in the Talk Page

I can't write this there, since this would be a forum conversation. I've felt a lot of pressure both from the pro-EU side and the pro-Russian side concerning to this topic. Well, what I have to say is that I think this conflict is difficult for me, from scatch, to really understand it. It's almost like if we (Portuguese) were confronting the Spaniards.... Though the Soviet Union, during Stalin, actually killed a lot of Ukrainians (during Holodomor), it also killed of Russians. It was not targeted at one single single ethnicity, by what I've read... it was targeted against whoever, rich or poor, wouldn't agree with Stalin's policies. I'm learning Italian, now, for 3 years, and the professor was born in Poland, and she has said to me some very embarassing stuff concerning to Stepan Bandera (like the Khmer Rouge, and my username is actually a Cambodian name, Mondolkiri, which is a region in Cambodia). So, as I told her that I was editing about this issue (to a Polish-Italian woman), she just told me the most despicable stuff about the Ukrainian colaborationists during WW2, that sounded a lot like what the Khmer Rouge did to the Cambodian people (either if they were Khmer, Vietnamese, Chinese, Thai, etc ethnicity). So... I tried even more to spot who was who, and there are a lot of self-declared fascist ppl in the Ukrainian government. There are plenty of fascists in Russia too, but at least Putin has kept them down (because he's himself very nationalist, narcissistic and pragmatic person). Whatever the future will be, there will be the self-proclaimed fascists in the Ukrainian govt, and the pro-Putin people in Ukraine. It's complicated but the best that I can wish is that there will be peace and, when it becomes obvious (for me it has already become), that Donbass people has its own right to a fair and independently scrutinized self-determination process. Regards! Mondolkiri1 (User talk:Mondolkiri1) 06:03, 24 October 2014 (UTC) 03:44, 24 October 2014 (London/Lisbon/Casablanca Time)

@Mondolkiri1: I don't know why, but I hadn't noticed that you created this new section here. I only went to my Talk page because I wanted to respond to a comment you made elsewhere. First, I have to say that I know nothing about Portugal or the Portuguese. My only connection to Portugal is port wine and my seventh grade social studies teacher being Portuguese. My impression is that your response to the current Ukrainian crisis is highly colored by struggles that Portugal has gone through which I know nothing about. Thus it is very hard for me to understand what you are trying to say with your comments about the Ukraine crisis.

A case in point is the comment you just made: "I actually thought about the case between Israel and Gaza. … I don't really think that the Russian shelling was a consequence of that particular event." (1) Are you actually comparing Russia to Gaza? Gaza is a tiny strip of land with no autonomy. Russia is by far the largest country in the world, and one of the world's few truly sovereign states. How can two things be more different than those two? (2) I am not sure what you mean by "Russian shelling". Do you mean shelling by Russia of de jure Ukrainian territory? First, I do not believe that Russia has ever shelled Ukrainian territory during this crisis. Second, if you think that Russia would engage in a military action for the sake of revenge or retaliation, you do not understand Russians at all. – Herzen (talk) 00:50, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

No, in this case I was more thinking about an eventual comparison between Russia and Israel, not between Russia and Gaza. Concerning to the Portuguese issue, let it go, I guess I was rambling.Mondolkiri1 (talk) 01:10, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Interview with Romano Prodi (former president of EU commission)

Hello, Herzen! Do you think that this inverview: [4] could be included in any article concerning to the Ukrainian situation? Thanks for reading! Mondolkiri1 (User talk:Mondolkiri1) 03:10, 1 November 2014 (GMT)

I direct this to you, since, by what I've seen, you've been the only reasonable voice from the (I'd be glad not to call it pro-Russian) Novororossiyan (or Donbassian, whatever side), since most of the other editors (including RGloucester, I admire him, but I must aknowledge), are very lenient towards the Ukrainian side, when it's a fact, sustained by a lot of independent sources, that the Ukrainian government hasn't been any better than the insurgent side. I guess (though I'm not absolutely sure), Iryna Harpy would agree with this. I'm neither anti-Russian or anti-Ukrainian. I'm just anti-international-interefence in issues that have directly neither to do with any EU country (though I'm myself a Eurosceptic) or USA.Mondolkiri1 (User talk:Mondolkiri1) 05:14, 1 November 2014 (GMT/Lisbon/London/Dublin/Casablanca Time)

Herzen, if we are (as you are) pro-Novorossiyan, or neutral (as I am, and maybe also Iryna Harpy, though I'm not sure), we have to deal with the bias in the English Wikipedia... And we'll have to deal with it... And let me be clear, what I say is absolutely correct: I support the self-determination of Crimea and Donbass, independently (not exclusively by Russia, and not exlusively by the West or the Ukrainian govt... let's say other INDEPENDENT democratic countries like Brazil, Argentina, South Africa, India, Indonesia, Malaysia, for instance). Under such supervising, I support a new Crimean referendum and a referendum about Donbass (either if it is about continuing to belong to Ukraine as it has been, to be a federation, to be independent, to be federalized with Russia or to be a part of Russia without federalization, actually). Iryna Harpy has more experience than I have about Wikipedia (whenever someone calls a WP rule, I still, generally have to look what does it mean, since I've only been an editor since January... and she knows a lot and she's neutral, I can tell you... RGloucester, more pro-Anglo-Saxonic views). Thanks for reading! Mondolkiri1 (User talk:Mondolkiri1) 05:49, 1 November 2014 (GMT/Lisbon/London/Dublin/Casablanca Time)

I wish I won't edit anything else about this bullshit ... not even if it would have a less favourable position concerning to Russia. The interest of USA about Ukraine is not about USA (as it never was). I refuse to participate in this circus. I know that USA is playing with Ukrainian dead people to play their own dirty game of power. As a European left-winger, supporting Alexis Tsipras I refuse that! I support Iryna, absolutely, but I refuse the arrogance of RGloucester! I rest my case (I'm Portuguese, Agnostic, Latin, living in Setúbal, 40 kms South of Lisbon, with the phone 932352942 of Portugal. if I can't communicate further! I hope I can!.. Good morning from Portugal, with a lot of Ukrainians, and a lot of Russian-speaking Ukrainians! :)Mondolkiri1 (User talk:Mondolkiri1) 08:11, 1 November 2014 (GMT/Lisbon/London/Dublin/Casablanca Time)

@Mondolkiri1: If you are a European left-winger, you should be supporting Russia 100%. Yet you constantly lump Russia together with the US and the EU, which means that you see Russia as being no better than the US or the EU. That makes you just as biased against Russia as RGloucester in my book, so your criticizing him for holding "pro-Anglo-Saxonic views" is hypocritical. And I find really annoying that you keep on saying that the people of Crimea should be given a chace to make a choice. The people of Crimea had a referendum, and they voted to reunify with Russia. Until you admit that simple fact, I see no point in working with you. Refusal to admit that fact is unambiguous evidence that you have strong anti-Russian bias. – Herzen (talk) 19:11, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

@Herzen: My position is not concerning to Russia, it's concerning to the self-determination of people in Donbass and Crimea (and elsewhere, when it makes any sense). Putin is not any left-wing guy, whatsoever, why should I support him, based on my ideological principles? Mondolkiri1 (talk) 19:12, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Edit by Koonter

I don't edit these articles anymore, but I still read (either to cry or to laugh about it) and I'd appreciate if you'd pay attention to the nonsense written by Koonter in the War in Donbass article. Correct if you wish.Mondolkiri1 (talk) 07:04, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

@Mondolkiri1: Thanks for alerting me. I reverted his last edit. This article is not at the top of my interests, so I don't know how much effort I will put into this.

I'm sorry to hear that you have stopped editing these articles, but I can understand it. I was surprised today by the amount of hate I was getting, just for maintaining the position that there are two theories of how MH17 was downed. For whatever reason, this idea makes some editors feel threatened. Hopefully you will decide to return to editing these articles after a break. – Herzen (talk) 07:38, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Well, eventually. I fell too much overwhwelmed while trying to remove a paragraph that is completely unsourced in Donbass general elections, 2014. It states that the observers of these elections were coordinated by Eurasian Observatory for Democracy and Elections (EODE), and they dedicate a quite developed paragraph to it, when it's completely unsourced. The only thing that is there is "citation needed" (which I added in the 1st place, but then I thought the proper thing to do was to remove the paragraph entirely, since all of them associated the separatists with far-right personalities)... I guess they were not satisfied with a list containing moderate and also far-left observers, they had to, by OR, since it's not sourced, to say that the observing mission was organized by the far-right. Now, I don't have a clue about how the Russian social-democrats (A Just Russia) or the Communist Party of Greece, or even Forza Italia, would they agree to be organized by neo-nazis. It's unsourced! Most editors, I doubt a lot that they feel the minimum empathy with the people there in Donbass. I've watched other Wikipedias and (the ones I can understand), every single one of them is far more balanced than this one.Mondolkiri1 (talk) 13:06, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Concerning to my activity about the War in Donbass

I'm now editing the Portuguese and Spanish Wikipedias about this issue and I'll also edit the French and Italian Wikipedias about it (though my knowledge on Italian and French is not as good), all of which are far less biased than the English Wikipedia. But I'll keep an eye on the English Wikipedia. Greetings and good luck with the avalanche of bigots on English Wikipedia.Mondolkiri1 (talk) 15:32, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

just because one is not engaged in a pov war for some White russian crusade and doesn't see types like this as the best representatives for European civilization or whatever claptrap herzen said somewhere doesn't make one a 'bigot' - and good to see you assuming good faith and not engaging in personal attacks mondolkiri - ffs. you want to take the bloody boulder out your own eye maybe - you and herzen are the only npov concerned people on these articles ? ridiculous self -praise , - you label a whole group of fellow editors bigots, and you are? the soul of impartiality? yeah? RS dictate content , that's your problem , they aren't just blandly repeating russianpropaganda. sorry about that.. Sayerslle (talk) 16:12, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Sayerslle "you want to take the bloody boulder out your own eye maybe" you said. I wonder who's engaging in a personal attack. I didn't mention anyone specifically in my sentence, so it can't be considered as a personal attack. Mondolkiri1 (talk) 18:19, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

???

When you make reverts like these [5] with those edit summaries, it becomes very hard to assume you're acting in good faith. You asked for details about the references. I provided them. It is also not true at all that "article title calls Dugin a neo-Eurasianist, not a fascist" - all of those sources explicitly call him a fascist. I presume you can read them. So why deny the obvious, the verifiable? Come on.  Volunteer Marek  09:21, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

== One sided campaigns before referendum is the opposite of "people's right to self-determination" ==

You seem to confuse here the Crimean status referendum, 2014 with "people's right to self-determination". In the campaign leading up to the referendum everything that was vaguely pro-Ukrainian was silenced forcefully and their were foreign Russian troops occupying parts of Crimea as admitted by Putin. Referendums held in such conditions have nothing to do with "people's right to self-determination" because by manipulating people (depriving people of information that does not tell what you want them to hear, in this case that Crimea should stay part of Ukraine, is also manipulation) you can not find out what they really want (people need to hear also the arguments of their opponents to make a just decision) and I have the feeling you know this too. Only referendums held in the same conditions as the Scottish independence referendum, 2014 are acceptable and tell what people's want to self-determined. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 16:13, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Given the geopolitical pressures on English Wikipedia (not on French, Italian, Portuguese or Spanish wikipedias), I'm now in ISIS. Anyway, I give to you (as I've given to Iryna and ti RGloucester) this video: I know that you agree that Russia hasn't intervened in E.Ukraine but that's not the essencial issue, the essencial issue are are the cultural differences between Eastern Ukraine (maybe apart from Kherson) and Western Ukrainian cultural issues. This is a very balanced video. And that's what I think! I'd also recommend to you to listen are read about Mikhail Gorbatchev comment about the situaton in Ukraine. User:Mondolkiri1Mondolkiri1 (talk) 23:59, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

@Mondolkiri1: What video?

I've never said that Russia has not intervened in eastern Ukraine: sending in humanitarian convoys is an intervention of sorts. But Russia has every right to intervene, given that the US overthrew the legitimate government with the February coup. Most editors here seem to believe that the US has the right to intervene in countries on the other side of the globe, but Russia has no right to defensively intervene in the affairs of a neighboring country, when that country is using its military to kill its own people. – Herzen (talk) 00:13, 22 November 2014 (UTC)