DavidCrosbie

Welcome

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March 2008

Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. Regarding your edit(s) to Robert Johnson (musician), it is recommended that you use the preview button before you save; this helps you find any errors you have made, and prevents clogging up recent changes and the page history. Thank you. Special-T (talk) 22:53, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Walkin' Blues

Hi DavidCrosbie, I've redirected your new article Walkin' Blues to Sweet Home Chicago per Wikipedia:Notability (music)#Songs. D0762 (talk) 13:33, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi again DavidCrosbie, I see you undid the redirect. For it to remain an article you'll need to add some context, like a paragraph or two about the single and some sources that assert that the single is notable. D0762 (talk) 13:50, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

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Captain Wedderburn's Courtship (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver)

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The Trees They Grow So High (folk song) (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver)

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Walkin' Blues (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver)

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T–V distinction (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver)

added links pointing to English, French, German, Italian, Spanish, Ben Johnson, Racine and Roger Brown

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Dutch pronouns

"Die" is often used as a substitute for "ie" when the preceding word ends with a vowel. So the "d" could be interpreted as a linking consonant. You also hear "n" as the linking consonant instead, so "ondekte-n-ie". But "die" is also a pronoun and can mean "he", "she" or generally "that (one)". For example "zag die dat niet?" (did they/that one not see that?) could refer to a woman as well as a man. So it's not clear whether the two could be separated. "ie" is not found often in written language anyway (certainly not as regularly as "je" or "ze"), and the forms with linking consonant are virtually nonexistant in writing, so that's why I changed it to "hij". CodeCat (talk) 03:11, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes but Zwart's argument rests on the pronoun being clitic and definitely not "hij". The fact that these forms are not common in the written language is irrelevant to the syntax under discussion. Of course, if they were not found at all, that would be another matter.DavidCrosbie (talk) 03:24, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure what's syntactically different about the clitic forms though. They're just unstressed forms of the regular pronouns and are placed in the same place in the sentence. They're generally interchangeable too. It's not like in some Romance languages, where they really attach to other words and can appear before the verb instead of after it. So if there is a good reason for treating the unstressed forms as specifically different from the stressed forms in V2 syntax, then that should be elaborated on. As it stands now in the article, it only makes me wonder why it's there. CodeCat (talk) 14:18, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

It's a step in Zwart's argument in favour of seeing V2 as somehow Spec CP — an argument that doesn't belong here, but might be taken up later in the article. Here, it puts down a marker and establishes a Wkipedia link with Specifier. As Zwart sees it, the unbreakable link with the clitic makes the V2-to-conjuction equivalence more obvious.DavidCrosbie (talk) 23:14, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

While were' in contact, can you advise me on an assertion in 'The Germanic Languages' (Routledge) that the order of verb forms at the end of a subordinate clause is fixed in Afrikaans but free (or free-er) in Dutch? The examples offered are not full enough for quoting. Obviously, I have no native-speaker feeling, but the writer (Bruce Donaldson of Melbourne University) appears to be qualified to judge. He claims: Dutch dat ... zal doen/doen zal vs Afrikaans dat ... sal doen only. Also Dutch dat ...gedaan heft/heeft gedaan vs Afrikaans dat ... gedoen het only. There's a place here for the observation, assuming that it's not a very marginal feature. If it is included, these examples won't do. Could you suggest better ones?DavidCrosbie (talk) 23:14, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Usually, in a series of verbs, they're placed in main-to-subordinate order in Dutch. So the inflected verb normally comes first. The reverse order (like in German) can be used but it sounds formal and somewhat archaic. CodeCat (talk) 23:18, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for that. You gave me the encouragement to look for examples. DavidCrosbie (talk) 12:52, 9 March 2014 (UTC)Right now I don't see an advantage in explaining the stylistic nuance.

The degree of stylistic difference depends on what construction is being used. In combinations of an auxiliary verb with a past participle, the difference is not big and putting the inflected verb first is just more usual and neutral. So both gedaan heeft and heeft gedaan are possible, the latter more neutral. For example it would be fine to say ik weet niet of hij dat gedaan heeft, maar.... But putting other auxiliaries last does sound archaic, like doen zal. I'm not sure if it's a general rule but I think infinitives almost always come after inflected verbs, while participles don't necessarily. CodeCat (talk) 14:55, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Something that may also be useful to consider is that subordinate clauses can "break outside" of the verb-final order even when they are syntactically the object of the verb. For example Ik heb toch gezegd wat ik niet had moeten zeggen. "I have said anyway what I should not have said.". The verb-final order is possible too, but sounds a bit less stylistically neutral and might have different nuances: Ik heb wat ik niet had moeten zeggen toch gezegd. I think the latter is avoided generally because it has stronger nesting of clauses; so there's a tendency to "close" the verbal part of the main sentence and keep it more unified, before starting a subordinate clause. The word "toch" is a bit free here, and can be placed after the inflected verb too: Ik heb toch wat ik niet had moeten zeggen gezegd..

Things get even stranger when the subordinate clause modifies the direct object instead of representing it fully. For example: Ik zag iets dat rood was in de schaduw bewegen. "I saw something that was red move in the shadow.". Here, "dat rood was" modifies "iets" as an adjectival clause. But you could put it at the end of the sentence too, splitting it off from the thing it modifies: Ik zag iets in de schaduw bewegen dat rood was.. This kind of construction is valid but it's sometimes avoided because it can leads to strange sentences that might be ambiguous as to what the subordinate clause actually refers to. Like: Ik zag iemand in de schaduw bewegen die zwart was. "I saw someone move in the shadow that/who was black.". In the original sentence the gender kept them apart: schaduw is feminine, iets is neuter, so they use different relative pronouns die and dat. But here, both words use the common-gender pronoun die so it's not clear whether zwart describes the shadow or the person. CodeCat (talk) 15:14, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

March 2014

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A page you started (Clause element) has been reviewed!

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The section titles should be rewritten for clarity; right now the first one in particular could lead some readers to think that what follows is a comprehensive grammar of the English language. In general the article could use some copy-editing to read more like an encyclopedia and less like a linguistics textbook.

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_signed, Rosguill ^talk 20:40, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

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