Template talk:Aliyah

I made an English version of the parralel Hebrew template.. Any help in filling up the missing articles or correcting the links would be gladly apriciated. Acidburn24m 18:27, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I made an attempt to improve it for consistency with the style of other templates and link-wise. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 09:09, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Convert to navbox?

I think this is a great template, but it should be converted to a navigation box at the bottom of the page, which will significantly reduce clutter. There's a reason why 'see also' and 'external links' are at the bottom, it's because related links don't need to be in the user's face, will all due respect to the Hebrew Wikipedia which seems to prefer this approach. Any thoughts? -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 16:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Related discussions

see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Jewish history#some advice on "Aliyah to Israel and settlement" table and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Israel#some advice on "Aliyah to Israel and settlement" table

--Shevashalosh (talk) 09:22, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Zionist political violence

I have added this to the template. It is an important part of Aliyah, and should not be omitted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.148.42 (talk) 02:59, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

I've removed it. It's not "an important part of Aliyah" - immigration to Israel is not political violence. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:19, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

One Milliion Plan

Why is the One Million Plan in this template? It was a plan that was never put in effect. It's certainly not similar to the rest of the stuff surrounding it the template. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:06, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

This is one editor's strong desire to redraw history in accordance with his agenda. This plan has practically zero significance, since it was shelved shortly after proposing it. Certainly not a significant topic in the context of Aliyah, but perhaps should have a paragraph about it in Aliyah Bet article, as proposed at talk:Aliyah Bet#Merger.GreyShark (dibra) 13:43, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

@Greyshark09 and No More Mr Nice Guy: I have just been made aware of this thread per [1] at AE. I added the One Million Plan link here in May 2014. If I ever had the template on my watchlist, it didn’t stay on for long. In May 2015, Galatz added the template into the One Million Plan article [2]

When you removed the link and had this conversation, you did not notify either me or Galatz.

I disagree with the removal, since the One Million Plan was one of, if not the, most notable of all government policies relating to Aliyah. Its significance is well sourced throughout the article.

It was THE moment when Aliyah of Mizrahi Jews first became a focus for what was to become Israel. The history of Aliyah for Mizrahi Jews should have equal weight, since they comprise half of Israel’s population today.

Onceinawhile (talk) 08:41, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

I don't think I'm under any obligation to find out who added information months before I removed it and inform them of my actions. And even if I did, you'd still not have consensus to re-add it.

Also, you are still pushing a misinterpretation of the plan that's not supported by the sources. Please see my above reasoning for why it doesn't belong here, which you have not addressed. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 08:49, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps not, but Greyshark09 above referred to “one editor's strong desire to redraw history”; it would have been appropriate for him to draw attention the attention of whoever he was referring to to this discussion.

To address your point about the plan being “similar to the rest of the stuff surrounding it the template”, this is exactly the same point regarding the image that you and Greyshark editwarred out of the One Million Plan article, and that Greyshark editwarred out of the Maabarot article. A couple of good sources (which you and Greyshark have deleted from these other pages without explanation):

• Katz, Irit (2016). "Camp evolution and Israel's creation: between 'state of emergency' and 'emergence of state'". Political Geography. 55: 146-147. These camps did not merely appear due to a state of emergency of the increasing stream of immigrants; instead, they were a product of an existing detailed plan, the One Million Plan, consolidated between 1942 and 1945 in order to absorb one million Jewish immigrants a few years before Israel's establishment… Camps were an integral part of the One Million Plan… However, three years after its completion, the One Million Plan approached realisation following the Israeli declaration of independence in May 1948 and the decision to open the state's gates to Jewish immigration. As planned and anticipated, the camp had gradually become a central instrument in the absorption process. Several small immigrant camps operated before statehood in the centre of the country, and in accordance with the One Million Plan, about 30 additional camps opened in former British military facilities.
• Rossetto, Piera (November 2012). "Space of Transit, Place of Memory: Ma'abarah and Literary Landscapes of Arab Jews; in Memory and Forgetting among Jews from the Arab-Muslim Countries. Contested Narratives of a Shared Past". Quest. Issues in Contemporary Jewish History. Journal of Fondazione CDEC. 4: Note 6. It could be argued that the State of Israel, before and immediately after its declaration, was going through such hardships that there were no many other options to "absorb" so many thousands of immigrants arriving to the Country than by placing them in these precarious hosting facilities. Nonetheless, I am of the opinion that the most controversial issue in this respect is not the outcome (e.g. the ma'abarot) of the choice, rather the choice in itself to bring to Israel so many thousands of immigrants, following the idea of the "One Million Plan" unveiled by Ben Gurion in 1944. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |editors= ignored (|editor= suggested) (help)

These sources make the connection crystal clear. Onceinawhile (talk) 08:57, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

What connection are you saying these sources make clear? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 09:02, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

The Maabarot / Immigrant Camps, as these were the “stuff surrounding it [in] the template”. [3] Incidentally, when you opened this discussion the “stuff surrounding it [in] the template” was Aliyah Bet [4] which you and Greyshark later stated you saw a connection with per the merger proposal! So your argument that “It's certainly not similar to the rest of the stuff surrounding it the template” has been disproven.

Onceinawhile (talk) 09:13, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. The OMP was a plan that was never implemented. The rest of the things in that section of the template are things that actually happened, not plans or ideas. The OMP could perhaps have a short paragaph in Aliyah Bet, but that doesn't mean it belongs here.

I just remembered you like going around in circles until your interlocutor is tired and then claiming no response means you have consensus. I don't have time for that so I will bow out now. You obviously don't have consensus to include so do not take my silence as supporting the change you'd like to make. If other editors show up would like to discuss, please ping me. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 09:34, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree as plane was never implemented its sagnificance is minimal there are clearly no consensus to include --Shrike (talk) 09:37, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

What does the plan being implemented have to do with anything? Does this have to do with Jews moving to Israel? If so then it makes sense to include. According to WP:NAV their nutshell states "A navigation template is a template that links between existing articles belonging to the same topic on English Wikipedia." Implementation is meaningless, its if they are related. Its 100% related to this topic - Galatz גאליץ^{שיחה Talk} 19:04, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

You may have also noticed that the guideline WP:NAVBOX says that "The subject of the template should be mentioned in every article" and despite exiting for years the OMP article doesn't mention Aliyah once. I know someone will probably now go and shoehorn it in, but the fact it didn't happen organically should tell you something. Also the OMP article doesn't refer to other things in the template per #3 in that guideline. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 05:19, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

”Aliyah” is the Hebrew word for “ascent” or “immigration to Israel”. The OMP article mentions immigration to Israel a large number of times. In fact that entire article is a plan about Immigration to Israel. The guideline says “the subject” not “the exact word”; that requirement is satisfied.

With respect to #3, the OMP article refers to both the immigration of Jews from Arab and Muslim countries and Ma’abarot (before you removed the latter a couple of days ago), which are both topics on the template. So that guideline has also been satisfied.

Onceinawhile (talk) 07:17, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Aliyah is a specific term that doesn't appear even once in the OMP article.

The fact the template has over 30 links, only one of which is referred to in the article just proves my point. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 11:03, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Once is correct: the article is almost entirely about the topic of aliyah. There is no rule that a particular word must be used, but if that really bothers you go to the article and add the word to any of the many places it would fit. Zero^talk 14:15, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Aliyah defines Aliyah as "the immigration of Jews from the diaspora to the Land of Israel". Does OMP discuss is details Jewish from outside of Israel moving to Israel? If the answer is yes than it should be included. - Galatz גאליץ^{שיחה Talk} 14:20, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

It seems that there is no counterargument here? I will wait a few more days before adding back. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:45, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

You have a clear consensus against. This would require sanctions.GreyShark (dibra) 10:45, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

What clear consensus against? I have not seen any policy based arguments to exclude - Galatz גאליץ^{שיחה Talk} 17:38, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

No consensus against exists here. I can't even find a reasonable argument against. Zero^talk 22:47, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Propose renaming of a component

• To Ottoman Palestine
• To Mandatory Palestine
• After Israeli Independence

The last one should be "To the State of Israel" or "To Israel" --Makeandtoss (talk) 13:35, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Aliyah was not only to Ottoman Palestine (Sanjak of Jerusalem), but also to Ottoman Galilee (Sanjak of Acre). Aliyah is defined by the borders of the Land of Israel.GreyShark (dibra) 13:10, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Image copyright

Fiamh has raised the question of whether the image File:PikiWiki Israel 20841 The Palmach.jpg is free in the US, per WP:NUSC. I have not been able to confirm this from the wikimedia commons information, so have temporarily removed it from this template. If anyone is able to confirm this, please do. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:14, 6 November 2019 (UTC)