- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:52, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
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Ulrike Sonntag
... that Ulrike Sonntag, an operatic soprano at the Staatsoper Stuttgart and an academic voice teacher in Stuttgart, recorded oratorios by Fanny Hensel and Paul Hindemith?Source: several
- Reviewed: Bronx–Whitestone Bridge
Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 11:48, 24 August 2019 (UTC).
- I didn't know that Felix Mendelsohn's sister wrote an oratorio, - did you? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:12, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
- The hook is about Sonntag though and not Hensel, so I'm not sure if using that as a hook fact would be suitable. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:49, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
- I only explain the existing hook: she is singing in little known oratorios, which some singers would not do, so it says a lot about her. Also, these are only an addition to the key fact that she was a longterm member of the Staatsoper Stuttgart and academic there, - which of course she has in common with many others, so I'd like to add something unique to her. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:31, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
- Also, it appears that several statements in the article don't have a reference. Could references be supplied for these statements, such as the awards and other biographical information? Thank you. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 03:04, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
- Will look. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:31, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
- I referenced one prize, will look at the other later (commented out so far.) I don't have a source for the school (translated from the German WP), but am ready to believe AGF that she went to that school. Anything else? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:40, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
- The other prize is de:Mozartfest-Wettbewerb für Gesang. The link to the recipients is broken. The prize seems to have discontinued in 2006, - no trace of it on the current website of the university. I have no time to dig deeper. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:01, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
- The hook is about Sonntag though and not Hensel, so I'm not sure if using that as a hook fact would be suitable. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:49, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
- @Kingsif: Would a different direction work here? Perhaps something like:
- ALT1
... that operatic soprano Ulrike Sonntag won first prize at the Deutscher Musikwettbewerb, which is considered the most important competition for young musicians in Germany?
- ALT1
- The part about it being "most important" would need to be added to the article and referenced if this hook is to be used, but it's just a suggestion. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:44, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
- That is quite a nice hook, yes. (And for Gerda, I did know Mendelssohn's sister composed, it was a question on a popular UK quiz show last week!) Kingsif (talk) 00:47, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
- Please no, many many others did the same (+ it was early and only 2nd prize), - please say something only SHE did. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:45, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
- ps: I also knew that she compoed, yes, but a large-cale oratorio? No. That's a bit we can tell our readers, not that Sonntag was one of hundreds to win a prize for young singers? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:48, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
- But that wouldn't make sense, because if we write a hook about Mendelsohn's sister composing, that would take attention away from Sonntag, who is supposed to be the subject of the hook. We're writing about Sonntag and not Hensel, so the hook would need to be about Sonntag in particular. @Kingsif: Do you have any other ideas? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 07:13, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
- We are going in circles, again. Please read above: the hook is about a singer and academic teacher in Stuttgart. Period. The rest is extra, and better to hint at Hensel writing an oratorio - implying that Sonntag dares to do unusual things - than another mentioning of the roles and parts everybody knows already, and many others also perform, such as Susanna. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:52, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
- Reading over the Life section, do we know where Sonntag was a student in Stuttgart in the 80s? If it's the same place that she taught from 2005, that could be quite an interesting hook to write up. The problem with Hensel's oratio is that barely anyone will know who she is (Fanny Mendelssohn would be clearer) and they won't know of the significance of her writing an oratio or of Sonntag performing it, for most readers it will be meaningless jargon of a subject they know little about, so they'll skip it. But most folk know about teaching and stuff. Kingsif (talk) 14:36, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
- We are going in circles, again. Please read above: the hook is about a singer and academic teacher in Stuttgart. Period. The rest is extra, and better to hint at Hensel writing an oratorio - implying that Sonntag dares to do unusual things - than another mentioning of the roles and parts everybody knows already, and many others also perform, such as Susanna. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:52, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
- But that wouldn't make sense, because if we write a hook about Mendelsohn's sister composing, that would take attention away from Sonntag, who is supposed to be the subject of the hook. We're writing about Sonntag and not Hensel, so the hook would need to be about Sonntag in particular. @Kingsif: Do you have any other ideas? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 07:13, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
- For disclosure, @Narutolovehinata5: has asked me for some help on Discord in regards to this hook. Reading through these comments, I have a few comments myself. I agree with @Kingsif: that it would be interesting if the university where she studied was the place that she is now a professor. However, I'm not sure if this is 100% true. If you're looking for something unique @Gerda Arendt: , I would suggest her professorship at the Staatliche Hochschule für Musik und Darstellende Kunst Stuttgart, as the wikipedia article states that " it is one of the oldest schools of its kind in Germany" in terms of schools for professional musicians. Or, the globality of the cities she has been a guest singer / masterclass teacher seems unique as Sonntag has made a career outside of Germany. My final suggestion would be something to do with her roles at the Vienna State Opera. Appearing in at least eight operas by well known composers in just three years? Seems important! --MrLinkinPark333 (talk)
- I feel so sorry for the time you put into this, because I was possibly not precise. What I want in a hook is to answer as many of the jornalist's questions who when where what why, about the subject. Not about her university. It's rather frequent that someone teaches where she studied, because of the location. This hook says who where what, and I like it. A similar one (Ursula Boese) just made the stats. Why all this argument? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:28, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
- If you would not prefer the university one, how about my other suggestions with where she made her career in the world, or the eight operas she was in while at Vienna? The Vienna one would possibly fill in who, what, where, and when, while the world one would fill who what and where. If you don't like either of these suggestions, no worries from me. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 20:39, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
- Gerda Arendt, MrLinkinPark333, Kingsif, Narutolovehinata5: How about a tweak on ALT0,
- ALT2:
... that Stuttgart operatic soprano and voice teacher Ulrike Sonntag has recorded little-known oratorios by Fanny Mendelssohn and Paul Hindemith?
- ALT2:
- I am picking up on your comments about Felix Mendelsohn's sister writing an oratorio - using the name Fanny Mendelssohn will lead readers to think there is a possible connection, while the name Fanny Hensel suggests nothing to me. Also, that they are little-known oratorios - so let's say so. I don't really know what has been preferred and not preferred, but reading Gerda's comments made me think the first hook could be made clearer, and so more interesting. RebeccaGreen (talk) 19:18, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
- Gerda Arendt, MrLinkinPark333, Kingsif, Narutolovehinata5: How about a tweak on ALT0,
- If you would not prefer the university one, how about my other suggestions with where she made her career in the world, or the eight operas she was in while at Vienna? The Vienna one would possibly fill in who, what, where, and when, while the world one would fill who what and where. If you don't like either of these suggestions, no worries from me. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 20:39, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
- I feel so sorry for the time you put into this, because I was possibly not precise. What I want in a hook is to answer as many of the jornalist's questions who when where what why, about the subject. Not about her university. It's rather frequent that someone teaches where she studied, because of the location. This hook says who where what, and I like it. A similar one (Ursula Boese) just made the stats. Why all this argument? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:28, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
I think Alt2 is a better version of the hook, and I would support it. But, Gerda, again remember that the purpose of DYK is not to explain who, what, etc - it's to avoid those and make the target article interesting enough for readers to want to click so they can find out who and what. It is a form of article promotion, not a summary (there can be significant crossover depending on topic, but good hooks are more 'fun fact' than 'main facts' - e.g. here, adding "little-known" takes this more into 'fun fact' territory) Kingsif (talk) 20:14, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you Rebecca. I am not convinced that "little-known" will raise curiosity, but may be wrong. I believe that the rather pompous "Staatsoper" would add interest (and know that ERRORS is against easter egg links). - Kingsif, sorry, I feel that when looking at a life"s achievements, just one fun fact is poor. - How is this?
- ALT3:
... that Ulrike Sonntag, an operatic soprano at the Staatsoper Stuttgart and an academic voice teacher in Stuttgart, recorded oratorios by Mendelssohn's sister Fanny and Paul Hindemith? - ... although hate it when a woman is reduced to being someone prominent's sister, - trying to please. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:30, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
- While ALT2 and ALT3 have potential, they seem to take attention away from Sonntag and instead put focus on Fanny, plus they don't seem to solve Gerda's comment before about uniqueness. Like, is Sonntag the only modern person to have recorded Fanny's oratorios? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:25, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
- Gerda Arendt, I am not sure that using "Staatsoper" would add interest, as most readers of English WP would not know what it meant. I'm not sure what an "easter egg link" is - is that to do with Stuttgart? I hope other editors will comment! RebeccaGreen (talk) 23:30, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
- I don't know why it's called "easter egg", but it's the name of when you expect something (the city of Stuttgart) and find something different (Staatsoper Stuttgart). When you don't know something on Wikipedia, try to use preface WP:, WP:EASTEREGG. You could use State Opera instead, but I fear it looses in translation, + readers might confuse it with National Opera. In Germany, state opera is an opera house run by a federal state, and most states have several. Opera DYK has the term Staatsoper eleven times, State Opera 14 times.
- Narutolovehinata5, perhaps "unusual" is a better word than "unique". I want to find something in her bio that is not so usual, so more interesting (or should we say: making curious) for a reader. I created the article because she was a red link for a recording of the Mass in B minor, and while I believe that it's one of the greatest music on Earth, I don't want to mention it again. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:07, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
- I am not sure that my suggestions are helping much, but I thought I would mention that I personally think that it's interesting that this singer has "recorded works by women composers", as the article says - by Lili Boulanger as well as by Fanny Mendelssohn. Not all singers like to record works by lesser known composers, or women composers, so that does say something about this person, to my way of thinking. I don't see it as moving the emphasis away from the subject onto the composers whose works she has performed. Singers perform works, make recordings, appear at certain places, teach at certain places, have teachers - we have to mention some of them in a hook about a singer, and the choice of works or choice/chance of places, teachers, etc, is one of the things that distinguishes singers from each other. RebeccaGreen (talk) 14:32, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you, why not?
- ALT4: ... that Ulrike Sonntag, a soprano at the Staatsoper Stuttgart and an academic voice teacher in Stuttgart, recorded an oratorio by Fanny Hensel and psalm settings by Lili Boulanger?
- Nice coinsidence that both are less known than their siblings. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:51, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
- I am not sure that my suggestions are helping much, but I thought I would mention that I personally think that it's interesting that this singer has "recorded works by women composers", as the article says - by Lili Boulanger as well as by Fanny Mendelssohn. Not all singers like to record works by lesser known composers, or women composers, so that does say something about this person, to my way of thinking. I don't see it as moving the emphasis away from the subject onto the composers whose works she has performed. Singers perform works, make recordings, appear at certain places, teach at certain places, have teachers - we have to mention some of them in a hook about a singer, and the choice of works or choice/chance of places, teachers, etc, is one of the things that distinguishes singers from each other. RebeccaGreen (talk) 14:32, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
- Gerda Arendt, I am not sure that using "Staatsoper" would add interest, as most readers of English WP would not know what it meant. I'm not sure what an "easter egg link" is - is that to do with Stuttgart? I hope other editors will comment! RebeccaGreen (talk) 23:30, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
- While ALT2 and ALT3 have potential, they seem to take attention away from Sonntag and instead put focus on Fanny, plus they don't seem to solve Gerda's comment before about uniqueness. Like, is Sonntag the only modern person to have recorded Fanny's oratorios? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:25, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
| General: Article is new enough and long enough |
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| Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems |
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| Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation |
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| QPQ: Done. |
Overall: 
Approving ALT4. As I said above, I think it's interesting that this soprano has recorded works by two women composers. I would personally prefer a shorter version of the hook, possibly leaving out the words "operatic" and "academic", but the hook as it stands is 187 characters, within the length required, and I will leave any editing to the promoter/approving admin. RebeccaGreen (talk) 17:35, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you! I dropped "operatic" - meant to accent vs. the oratorio and psalms, but see that it is duplicate to the opera house. I'd drop "academic" if we had room for the university, but with just "in Stuttgart", she could simply give a few private lessons. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:41, 15 September 2019 (UTC)