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Template:Did you know nominations/Ladislaja Harnoncourt

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 20:37, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Ladislaja Harnoncourt

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Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 16:25, 24 February 2022 (UTC).

  • Comment (not a review). I thought we were trying to clean out all of the minor-nobility-genealogy-cruft from the encyclopedia; why are we adding more? Is she known for anything other than being descended from famous people and mother to a couple more? —David Eppstein (talk) 05:41, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
    I don't care about descent, but don't want to say this same thing in four biographies, of her sons, and hopefully her daughter to come some day. I believe that it clarifies the background of these four or five people, of whom at least two did unique things for the world. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:11, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
QPQ: Done.

Overall: Nice article. Perhaps modify the hook a bit:

Alt1 "... that Ladislaja Harnoncourt, born a Countess at Schloss Stainz, married a widower with two small children only two months after he proposed to her?

I have the following comments to avoid very short sentences:

  • geni.com is a questionable wiki site, but can be used for uncontroversial topics. In this case, it is admissible in the absence of other sources informing of the artist's DOB and death date. Please check WP:RSP list.
  • Maybe remove 'making him' in this sentence. "She was the great-granddaughter of the Habsburg Archduke Johann, the 13th child of Emperor Leopold II, making him a descendant of various Holy Roman Emperors and other European royalty." to this
  • I would add a description after the monastery name: "Her father was Franz the Count of Meran; who he bought Schloss Stainz, a former monastery in the Austrian state of Styria, where she was born.
  • Perhaps add a conjunctive adverb to link these sentences, because the second sentence is too short? "As a girl, she was nicknamed "Die wilde Laja" (The wild Laja) because she was regarded as uneducatable; she displayed however a propensity for dancing and singing. "
  • " He thought of her as a possible mother for his children, and requested her mother to grant him a talk with the young woman" --> " He thought of Ladislaja as a possible mother for his children, and asked permission from her mother to meet her"
  • "Eberhard travelled to Austria for the meeting in October 1928,"
  • In 1931, Eberhard's company went bankrupt.
  • I'd delete "Of her her children," but it's up to you.
  • The memoir covers details of Ladislaja's life.
  • Please remove duplicate links el.ziade (talkallam) 09:58, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
Thank you for looking. I adopted some of your changes. I don't like to call people by their first name only if I can avoid it. "Franz, Count of Meran" is the correct way in English (in German "Franz Graf von Meran"). The singing and dancing was possibly when she was older. Please check. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:07, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
I like your hook version. Please close br html, or the editor is confused ;) - I did it for you above. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:10, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
el.ziade, what do you think? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:23, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
Nice Gerda! It's ready from my side. I took the liberty to remove duplicate links because it's a requirement, and they could hinder your nomination.el.ziade (talkallam) 15:59, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
The hook isn't interesting. I think this is a case where there are no suitable hooks. Pinging theleekycauldron for their opinion. SL93 (talk) 05:25, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
@SL93: I mean, it seems the hook is a tamped down version of the truth—but yeah, even a hook that correctly conveys the information is borderline uninteresting for me. I'll ping Gerda back here, since she's usually got a reason why she features a hook. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 05:59, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
Another round of what's interesting to one isn't for another, and all think what they find interesting is what a broad readership finds interesting. This was planned for women's month, so I wanted to say something about her, not that she is the mother of these famous four sons, plus less famous step-son, step-daughter and daughter, nor that she was born into one of the most noble families in Austria. We could head for mother's day and say that. One of her sons was/is really famous. When she walked through Berlin with the him in a stroller, the two stepchildren and visibly pregnant, people attacked her, spitting, because so many children in such a world seemed wrong to them ... - should we say that? (I thought it was interesting, but not encyclopedic.) We could make the original hook more interesting by adding that her intention was to to remain single and serve as a nurse at that time, but I didn't see room within 200 chars, - want to help? - Today's plan: a person who died in Ukraine for RD, a theatre in Ukraine for DYK (last day as usual), a FAC with a load of open questions, and that says nothing about a new article, - why do we have these discussions to make a hook a bit more quirky??? This is good for 700 views, and whatever else will get it to 900, - why waste time arguing? - A reviewer and I found it interesting. Have mercy. I understand that you two are to young to understand what nobility meant in Austria until 1919, and still does, - did you read the interview of her merchant son about their family gatherings with 700 to 800 attending? in the 21st century? - Other idea: we say that she was called the "wild Laja", and have a quirky for my DYK collection of all eight positions. I hope the family would forgive me. Please word that, I have no talent for it. Off to the other tasks. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:58, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
The issue with the hook is that its a common thing for so many people throughout history. She married someone who had two kids from a previous marriage = common (and so did my mother by the way - although not the widower bit). Her being single due to her career is nothing unusual either. Is it unusual due to her being a Countess? Try explaining that if such a thing is the case. SL93 (talk) 02:13, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
Gerda, I was thinking the same thing SL93 has just stated. This tells us a brief story about a woman who married and had children. Marriage and giving birth were her accomplishments. The rest of the article is more info about the husband and children. And quite frankly, if this made it as far as passing the nomination, and even making it to Prep, it would be surely pulled. — Maile (talk) 02:53, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
I agree that the hook is meh. Also, there is no mention of her being a countess in the article. Gatoclass (talk) 03:19, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
Alt2 "... that Ladislaja Harnoncourt, born a Countess, and descended from Holy Roman Emperors, was once nicknamed, "The wild Laja," and thought to be uneducatable? Kübler, Susanne (12 February 2019). "Die Mutter wild, der Onkel ein Nazi". Tages-Anzeoger
Thoughts? --evrik (talk) 04:28, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
Thank you for the promising offer. I don't believe we have to mention the very noble family twice (and thought the schloss was an informative way to do that), and "once" could be more precisely: when she was young. I leave the wording to you all who know English better. - Replies to some above: That she was born a Countess of Meran is the first sentence. She wanted to remain single because her fiance was shot, possibly by himself. Not good to mention in a hook even if they are all dead. - Quoted from above: "Other idea: we say that she was called the "wild Laja", and have a quirky for my DYK collection of all eight posiions. I hope the family would forgive me. Please word that, I have no talent for it. Off to the other tasks." - Trying anyway, adding a year to explain why that high nobility still counted in Austria (until 1919):
ALT2a "... that when Ladislaja Harnoncourt grew up, born a Countess of Meran in 1899, she was thought to be uneducatable, and nicknamed the "wild Laja"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:40, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
ALT2b "... that as a child, Ladislaja Harnoncourt, born a Countess of Meran, was thought to be uneducatable, and nicknamed the "wild Laja"? --evrik (talk) 18:24, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
ALT2c "... that as a child, Countess Ladislaja Harnoncourt, was thought to be uneducatable, and nicknamed the "wild Laja"?
ALT2d "... that as a young girl, Countess Ladislaja Harnoncourt, was thought to be uneducatable, and nicknamed the "wild Laja"?--evrik (talk) 18:24, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
Three more. --evrik (talk) 18:24, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
Thank you. English not being my first language, I think of "child" as someone age one to ten, but may be wrong. How about "girl"? I like the Countess in front. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:49, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
How about "young girl"? In America,"girl" is not so much age, as it is gender, and can be used to refer to women of all ages. — Maile (talk) 00:23, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
I'll never learn English ;) - we have "Mädchen" in German, and "kleines Mädchen" would be preschool at best, "junges Mädchen" perhaps up to 15? It doesn't matter to me. Always learning. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:00, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
I guess the best US examples are The Golden Girls, which is about women of retirement age, and Billionaire Boys Club (2018 film). — Maile (talk) 12:14, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
Gerda, what does the source say - "girl" or "young girl"? We should simply follow the source. Gatoclass (talk) 12:01, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
The source is in German, and says "Mädchen", "ein wildes, ungezähmtes Mädchen" (a wild, untamed girl). [1] The derived source (which has a nice pic of mother and the son who wrote that) says "wilde Laja" without any indication of at what age. The question is how to translate "Mädchen". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:43, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt, Gatoclass, and Maile66: Alt2d translates Mädchen as young girl. --evrik (talk) 01:12, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
I am happy with that, but it needs a reviewer. Here's another quirky for Mother's Day:
ALT3: ... that Ladislaja Harnoncourt, born a Countess of Meran, raised seven children, including a later musician, theologian, business executive and physician?
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Gerda Arendt (talk • contribs) 03:44, April 27, 2022 (UTC)
I'd go with ALT2d. Sorry if I kept you waiting you guys. el.ziade (talkallam) 11:21, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
Kindly give it an icon --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:56, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
I added the check on behalf of the reviewer. --evrik (talk) 14:03, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
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