Talk:Zuhir al-Qaisi

CounterPunch as a source

CounterPunch is not a reliable source. It is an extreme-left blog (call it a newsletter if you want), and the author being cited here has also been called extreme left[1]. Even if it was a more reliable source, it definitely does not comply with WP:REDFLAG, and is inappropriate for sourcing a statement claiming that Israel (allegedly) wanted the escalation in Gaza. I suggest that we do not use CounterPunch as a source unless the statement is non-controversial and qualified. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 10:12, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

No. You have everything wrong here re Counterpunch and its contributors. That is an utterly inappropriate assertion to make, and is counter-factual. A blog has a very specific meaning in English and wikipedia, and your use of the term to erase information that was not cited from a blog, is well below editorial par.

I can't blame you for not reading it and thererfore being totally unfamiliar with the e-journal, to the point of dismissing it, ludicrously, as an 'extreme-left blog'. It has contributions from retired members of the Reagan administration (Paul Craig Roberts); of its two main editors, Jeffrey St. Clair is a distinguished investigative reporter, and ecologist: Alexander Cockburn is a libertarian, cynical of democrats and republicans; Patrick Cockburn has worked for the Financial Times and the Independent, newspapers that are right/midmainstream and not extreme-leftist; Michael Hudson is an ex-Wall Street financial speculator turned economics professor; Pam Martens worked on Wall Street for 2 decades as an economist; Uri Avnery an extreme-leftist, bah;James Abourezk is an engineer, turned lawyer, turned congressman and senator, and extreme-left wing? Gabriel Kolko, prof.emeritus at York University in Toronto, is so 'extreme leftist' that, if you know his writings, he can't stand ideological Marxists, or their political icons like Mao and Lenin in China and Russia; Franklin Spinney, before his retirement, was a distinguished and much praised military analyst for the Pentagon; Winslow T. Wheeler, 'the Director of the Straus Military Reform Project of the Center for Defense Information , founded by Rear-Admiral Gene La Rocque in Washington, D.C,' and extreme-left winger, hah! Who are you trying to kid? I could go on, but surely that shortlist will help editors focus on the facts, if you wish to contest this as RS.

Neve Gordon teaches at the Negev's Ben-Gurion University for X's sake, and is not blogging, as you tried to put over.

The reasons given both for your edit (blog) and your dismissal of the source here (not RS, because 'fringe' extreme-leftist) are therefore visibly erroneous or spurious. If disagreement with Israel's occupational policies were extreme-leftist, next you will be telling me I can't use Simon Sebag Montefiore's recent book on Jerusalem because he's an 'extreme leftist'.

In short, Counterpunch (and check the archives) is a perfectly reliable source for what notable academics write, and what they refer to as being discussed by Israeli reporters.Nishidani (talk) 13:20, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

For the record, I overlooked also Gareth Porter who also has in a cool-headed article in that same e-newspaper, (30 March, 2012) citing Harel on the escalation's possible aims in killing Al-Qaisi.Nishidani (talk) 19:04, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Before we take this further into RfC, RSN, etc., can you simply find a mainstream source corroborating these claims? In real extremely long post above, you did not address how CounterPunch, call it what you want, can be used as a source for WP:REDFLAG statements.

Regarding Neve Gordon, who "teaches at the Negev's Ben-Gurion University for X's sake", I understand that the controversy surrounding Ben Gurion University, and specifically its political science faculty, has mostly evaded non-Israelis (and therefore don't blame you for not knowing about it), but I suggest you read up on the issue, which captured headlines in Israel for many days after events involving the university, such as Eyal Nir's extremist statements[2], Im Tirtzu's report, and other events. The government and Knesset had sessions specifically on the issue.

—Ynhockey ^(Talk) 08:49, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

You misrepresented a source, and maded several egregious errors, hence my 'extremely long post' (a short paragraph is such in the twitter world?). I shortened it by not saying, for example, that your link to Irit Linur's highly dated screed in a blog, while contesting an RS as blog looks to be contemptuous (using a blog as an RS source in order to characterise an RS as an unusable blog). It struck me as an attempt to throw sand in the eyes.

Did I, by the way, miss something in Linur's screed? I can't see where Neve Gordon is dismissed as an extremist. I shortened it by not mentioning that your attempt to wave WP:REDFLAG my way, as if that were applicable (there is nothing extraordinary being claimed) was just that, citation of a policy that has nothing to do with the material I introduced. Citing an Isrfaeli screed reporting on Eyal Nir has absolutely nothing to do with Neve Gordon or Zvi Bar'el, or even the status of academics at Ben Gurion University. Do that and someone will tell you that the fact that Steven Plaut is a member of Haifa University does not translate into an editorial right to question A. B. Yehoshua's presence on Wikipedia.

I'd remind you that you are an administrator, and this kind of wikilawyering is inappropriate. Please note that in English the word 'extreme leftist' does not mean 'critic of his government's policy', which is the way you appear to use the term. Please justify your citations of policy by showing why the policy you cite is relevant. So far it isn't. ThanksNishidani (talk) 10:34, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

The comment about the long post was because most of the information there was not relevant to the discussion (how are Alexander Cockburn, Patrick Cockburn and others important here?), and because it was long. The link to news1 was to show that someone called Neve Gordon an extreme leftist (as required per WP:BLP), nothing more. You and I both know about Neve Gordon's reputation and activities, and I can't understand why you're (possibly) trying to "throw sand in the eyes" by claiming that he's impartial.

Regarding WP:REDFLAG and the policy that you are violating—WP:REDFLAG is exactly that policy (part of WP:V). Even if you qualify the source as well as the commentator, it would still be a WP:UNDUE problem because both are on the fringe. Regarding why it's a WP:REDFLAG problem, please read your addition again. It is saying that Israel did not kill al-Qaisi out of necessity (i.e. Israel killed him for no good reason, i.e. in cold blood). That also means that Israel lied about the whole affair, because officials clearly stated that the attack was preemptive. If that isn't a WP:REDFLAG claim, then I don't know what is.

—Ynhockey ^(Talk) 11:42, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

You have forgotten your original edit which patently removed RS material using an edit summmary (blog) that is demonstrably false, since neither Counterpunch nor Al Jazeera which carried his article, are blogs.

You challenged Neve Gordon as a reliable source for Ofer Shelah's report on March 11 (in Maariv) about Ehud Barak's view, and Yoav Limor's reportage in Yedioth Ahronoth. The article you eliminated refers to a survey of 11 Israeli sources made by Gordon, who concluded that 'Most analysts intimated that Israel knew that the assassination would lead to an escalation.' You are now asserting, that what Gordon remarks as being a consensus by 'most analysts' in the Israeli press, is a WP:fringe view. In your personal view, Gordon is lying. I suggest you reread Gordon's article, check the 11 sources he mentions, and show that he is misleading his readership in his summary of what those 11 cited sources say. I won't take your word for it that he is lying, and no policy in wikipedia justifies removing an established academic's analysis of a secondary language's news sources because one editor either dislikes him, or the venue that publishes him, which, if you dislike Counterpunch, can be easily remedied by sourcing that article to Neve Gordon, 'Preparing Israel for war,' AlJazeera, 21 March 2012. Your objection completely breaks down because Zvi Bar'el and Aluf Benn, and the Hayat article, which you retained, say exactly what Gordon says, without his details, so it is again not WP:Fringe, and has nothing to do with WP:REDFLAG or WP:V. Being a reasonable man, since you get anxious about 'extreme left' rags like Counterpunch, I'll change the source to Al Jazeera, clarify it is Gordon's summary of several Israeli mainstream sources. Okay?Nishidani (talk) 16:38, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

devout muslim etc. Removed to talk and awaiting verification

He was a devout Muslim, and saw in Jihad the fulfillment of religion.

I suspect he was a devout Muslim. I've searched for several days without finding anything to support this statement.However Brian R. Farmer's,Understanding radical Islam: medieval ideology in the twenty-first century, Peter Lang, 2007 p.172 does mention al-Qaisi and jihad and mentions the duties of a 'devout Muslim' in this context. The problem is, this is a Baghdad Salafi al-Qaisi and not our man. I think, in lieu of real evidence, that someone has made a false google connection. Secondly, editors should learn never to add material that they cannot justify in terms of ready-at-hand RS. You cannot just plunk stuff in, and hope that a cn. tag, if applied, will stay up for years.Nishidani (talk) 21:42, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps a useful source. But I won't add it for the moment

It is true that Israel started the violence with a targeted assassination, but it is hard to ignore several important circumstances: firstly, the top militant who was assassinated on Friday, Zuhir al-Qaisi, was so deeply involved in terrorism that the Egyptian intelligence had recently warned him to keep it down or else Israel would kill him. [4]

Whether or not he was the mastermind of the specific terror attack that Israel accuses him of planning - a cross-border raid from Egypt in August of last year which killed eight Israelis - it seems quite plausible that he was intimately involved in the destabilization of Sinai in the last year.

Given that the Egyptian-controlled peninsula became the last stretch of a long arms-smuggling route that started in Libya and ended in Gaza, numerous Israeli officials have warned over the past month that more violence was to be expected in and near the strip.

Secondly, al-Qaisi was not a member of Islamic Jihad, the organization that launched the majority of the rockets at Israel and that suffered most of the losses (the majority of those rocket crews on combat missions). He was the leader of the Popular Resistance Committees, another militant organization.

Victor Kotsev Iranian hand seen in Gaza escalation, Asia Times,14 March 2012Nishidani (talk) 21:45, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

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