Talk:Tel Yosef

"Separation" from Ein Harod in 1926 - ?!

According to Mati Alon, Holocaust and Redemption, pp. 62-63, Trafford Publishing, 2004 [1], in 1926 Tel Yosef separated on political grounds from the first kibbutz, Ein Harod. It is not clear from the book text in which way the two kibbutzim "separated": due to a split within Ahdut HaAvoda? Were they two groups (kvutzot) in one single settlement before that? Quite significant!

The Hebrew article has the answer. Number 57 17:41, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

@Number 57:: Sorry, but from what I understand from the "Google translate"-mangled text, it was a communist faction that split away. Nothing about any previous common project? close cooperation? two-kvutzot-one-kibbutz? with Ein Harod. If you know more, please write it here and/or on the Ein Harod talk page. Thanks!Arminden (talk) 17:56, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

My Hebrew isn't great, but from what I understand, it was founded by a work battalion (Gdud HaAvoda) from Ein Harod a short distance away, a few months after Ein Harod had been established. Ideological disagreements during 1922 and 1923 led to a split. In 1926 some residents of Tel Yosef (the "Left" faction) left the Gdud HaAvoda movement), which appears to be what the book is referring to. Number 57 18:13, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, but the book speaks of "the separation of Kibbutz Ein Harod and Kibbutz Tel Yossef, in 1926", not of some left-wing faction within Tel Yosef moving to the Soviet Union. Either the book (or its translation) is inaccurate, or the question remains: how did they separate? Were they one single kibbutz before 1926? In what sense? (Kibbutz/kvutza can mean both a group of pioneers, and a settlement established by such a group. Before they settled at a permanent location, the group often wandered around, some starting already in Europe, but most of them only within Palestine. See Kinneret Farm, where the Kinneret "kvutza" was established in 1913, but moved on to establish the settlement only in 1929! The Degania founders came from Romny, regrouped in Hadera, and so on.) Too much guessing.Arminden (talk) 18:48, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Well I think until someone can answer that question, it's pointless having the text in the article – I didn't think it was a great idea to add text and immediately tag it as dubious. Number 57 18:51, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

I agree it's less than elegant, but if it's not mentioned there, nobody will bother to look for an answer. It seems to be a WP guideline that one should not streamline the data, but rather leave the contradictions in the article until they can be dealt with; and if the issue is controversial, this should be reflected also in the contradictions, which are there to stay.

Note: the Ein Harod article claims that that kibbutz relocated to its permanent location (Kumi Hill) only in 1930, but other sources set this event in 1926, and the map shows Ein Harod and Tel Yosef adjacent to each other; if they already "separated" in 1926, whatever that means, and Ein Harod moved up the hill only 4 years later, one wouldn't expect Tel Yosef to follow it in its move. They share the same hilltop, are immediately adjacent to each other, and Mati Alon speaks of the two breaking Shlomo Lavi's heart by "separating" in 1926... It makes sense, we just lack the facts. Hopefully someone will find the answer, my intensive Google search didn't bring up anything.

PS: Mati Alon dates Ein Harod's Ihud-Meuhad split to 1954, while it actually happened in 1952. I hope he didn't just get everything wrong by writing from memory, and this all is nothing but a useless discussion...Arminden (talk) 20:02, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

It's messy and the article is missing details. Sheikh Hassan hill, where Tel Yosef was supposedly first founded, is about 3km south of where Tel Yosef is now. I have a map (guessing 1930-ish) that shows "Tel Yosef" in both places, then a later map (revised 1942) showing it only in the northern location close to Ein Harod. So at some point it moved, which the article is missing. The location of Ein Harod then is more or less where Ein Harod (Meuhad) is now and Ein Harod (Ihud) is about 1.5km north. Zero^talk 02:31, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

I'm reading Anita Shapira, "Gedud ha-Avodah: A Dream that Failed", The Jerusalem Quarterly, Number 30, Winter 1984, pp62–76. From this I understand: the two settlements were separate from the start, though both were founded by Gedud in quick succession. In the summer of 1923 (not 1926) there was a big fight over money and other things (I didn't sort it out exactly) that led to Ein Harod leaving the Gedud. The Gedud itself began to be riven by internal disputes, leading to a split in December 1926 into "leftist" and "rightist" factions. A year or so later, the leader of the "leftist" faction Menachem Elkind announced his intention of returning to the Soviet Union, which he did accompanied by about 80 of his followers. There they established a commune called Vojo Nova. Zero^talk 02:58, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks Zero. Shapira's book is probably a better source than the website "Zionism and Israel" used as the only apparent source for Gdud HaAvoda. So Mati Alon (or his translator?) meant to say that the two kibbutzim went separate ways politically, not that they separated. I vaguely think to remember that the Herod Valley was a deadly malaria trap, maybe they all went up the hill for that reason. Elkind was killed by Stalin in 1938, his Crimean commune was dissolved already in 1931-32([2]); another tragic story.Arminden (talk) 20:27, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

That also fits in with what the Hebrew wiki article states. Number 57 21:15, 13 October 2016 (UTC)