Talk:Tan Kai

Sorting

After I added {{DEFAULTSORT:Tan, Kai}} to the page, Badagnani started a discussion in the comments on the article page:

• Badagnani: what is the necessity of this code? It already sorts this way.
• Nygaard: A: no, it doesn't; all characters are sorted, and standard divider between family name and given name is comma and space.
• Badagnani: I just checked the sorting in the earlier edit before this strange code was added and it sorts and alphabetizes exactly the same way, under "T."
• Nygaard: Duhh? All the characters get sorted, not just the first one.
• Badagnani: Exactly, is sorts and alphabetizes properly without this strange code. And the "duh" remark is unnecessary and extremely rude, it's against our Wikipedian principles to insult another editor in this manner.

Continuing, new by Nygaard: No, it does not. This way we get Kai between Isabella Tan and Lucio Tan. Without the "magic word" stuff we do not; we had Tan Kai before Amy Tan. Gene Nygaard 05:25, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I just tested and it does alphabetize incorrectly. I have no idea why because I have never before had a problem with this. Liu Tianhua, for example, sorts correctly but maybe that is because all the other names around it in the category are also in Chinese order (surname first). I think a better solution in future is to always put the surname first in the category, like "Tan, Kai," to solve this without using code that most editors don't understand. Badagnani 16:06, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

The letter T sorts as "Unicode number 84 (decimal)". It and the other characters sort numerically in each position as if they were these numbers without the DEFAULT sort:

84, 97, 111, 32, 75, 97, 105

but this way with "Tan, Kai" in DEFAULTSORT:

84, 97, 111, 44, 32, 75, 97, 105

Note that the fourth character is now number 44 rather than number 32, the fifth character is number 32 rather than number 75, etc.

Most editors don't understand the DEFAULTSORT "magic word" (see Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2007-01-02/Technology report) because it is new, first available in 2007. I've used it a few times; I avoid it yet in times when it is likely to be controversial. Note that if Liu Tianhua were in Category:Living people as Tan Kai is, he would be missorted there. And he could end up missorted as other people are added to the categories in which he does appear. Gene Nygaard 16:37, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

So the magic word must always be added for individuals who use Chinese name order? I wish there were a simpler way; that's always best at Wikipedia. Badagnani 17:17, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

No, you can still add sort keys to each individual name (and note that if a different one is added in any category, that will override this "default" just as it overrides the default article name without any DEFAULTSORT tag). Note that there are many of these people which are often known in "normal" name order. Where they end up being indexed ought not depend on the whims of the article creator, in choosing one name order or the other, nor of the choice of which order of the names will occupy the one slot available for an article name as the result of a WP:RM discussion, or whatever. And it usually has to be added when the given name is first, too.

It won't be added to all of them anytime soon, and for this particular problem, it won't matter at all or won't be out of place by more than one or two places in most categories, so it won't get anybody's attention as needing fixing. It's something to keep in mind when you do add categories, however; easier to get it right from the beginning. Gene Nygaard 17:43, 15 January 2007 (UTC)