Talk:Suzie Moncrieff

Use of "nee Dick"

Kia ora Paora thanks for the tidy up on this article! I'm curious about the use of "nee" here - this is used to indicate the maiden name of a married woman (any dictionary will give this definition) and it doesn't seem the correct use of the word here as Moncrieff didn't change her name from Dick to Moncrieff on marriage, and she's not currently married. Is there a WP policy on this type of situation, or a precedent for other women who have changed their names from their birth names to something else but not as a result of marriage? Thanks! MurielMary (talk) 11:30, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

See Given name#Name at birth. Paora (talk) 19:36, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I note that other NZ women in WP who are known by a particular name (either married name or other name which differs from their birth name) are not described in the lede as "nee" - e.g. Caroline Abraham and Kiri Te Kanawa. I have added an infobox with Moncrieff's birth name in it. MurielMary (talk) 01:04, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

I have amended those articles for the missing birth names. Schwede66 18:28, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Schwede. I'm still a bit uncomfortable with "nee" being used in the situation of a person changing their name by deed poll rather than by marriage. I'm going to ask a few more questions and dig a bit deeper! Maybe on the page for the WP style manual. On the to-do list! MurielMary (talk) 20:19, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

According to the Manual of Style page, people who legally change their name can be described as "born" as follows:

• In some cases, subjects have legally changed their names at some point after birth. In these cases the birth name should be given as well:

(from Jack Benny): Jack Benny (born Benjamin Kubelsky, February 14, 1894 – December 26, 1974) ...

• • So I'm going to change this article to "born" as Moncrieff changed her name herself, it wasn't a change as a result of marriage. MurielMary (talk) 10:31, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm not that bothered, but I re-iterate that the term "née" (or the male equivalent, "né") does NOT imply that the surname was necessarily changed as the result of marriage. Rather, marriage is just one of the ways in which someone's surname may change. Quoting from the Wikipedia description of "Née":

The French and English-adopted terms née and né (/ˈneɪ/; French: [ˈne], from French né[e] 'born') are used to indicate the name at birth. The term née, having feminine grammatical gender, can be applied to a woman's surname at birth that has been replaced or changed (women might prefer to have their marital names fixed to their pre-marital names), most often (in English-speaking cultures) at marriage. The masculine form né, though uncommon, can likewise be applied in English or French to men's family names changed for any reason. (The accent marks are important but sometimes omitted.)

Thus, in the case of Jack Benny, the use of "born" is appropriate instead of "né" because it was not just his surname that he changed but his given AND family names. Paora (talk) 10:53, 10 February 2016 (UTC)