Talk:Spanish-style bullfighting

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 January 2020 and 22 May 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Mstarkey981.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 09:57, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Portuguese-style bullfighting

there also a Portuguese-style bullfighting! where is the article for that???--Anen87 (talk) 19:26, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Never mind I found it... It should be linked from this page.

If anyone is still looking for it, it's here: Portuguese-style bullfighting. And its linked on the article's see also section. Donna Spencer^{talk-to-me⛅} 15:36, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

About "Antitaurina"

In a part of the text appears:

In Spanish, opposition to bullfighting is referred to as antitaurina.[citation needed]

There is no need for citation of this. The word "oposición antitaurina" is a common place in spanish and everyone knows of what are we talking.

Anyway, there is a citation:

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/cultura/campana/antitaurina/reune/180000/firmas/Cataluna/elpepicul/20090507elpepicul_7/Tes

it's an article of El Pais, a well known newspaper of Spain, who relates to the sign collection for the approval of a law against the corridas, and califies the law as "ley antitaurina".

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.38.38.221 (talk) 22:20, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Lighter muleta or estoque

What is the fake certificate used for? A lighter muleta or a lighter estoque? --84.20.17.84 08:12, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Criticism removal

I removed the criticism section. I don't doubt that there is some criticism of Spanish bullfighting, but the entire section was just this lone sentence, "Animal rights groups often protest bullfighting." The only reference was a broken Yahoo link. I don't really think this qualifies as referenced, NPOV information in any sense. This is not my area of expertise, but if someone wants to research and get a criticism section going again, I'm not opposed. Clemenjo (talk) 09:52, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry - I didn't see your note when I re-edited the article. I agree with what you say above. The new info added under Animal Concerns should be better referenced and is specific to bullfighting in Spain. I think that animal concerns is a better section head than criticism since it is more specific. If other criticisms exist and are added later they could be lumped together under a criticism section. Bob98133 (talk) 14:30, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

It appears that the section has been renamed from 'Animal Concerns' to 'Anti-bullfighting movement'. This appears to be an attempt to minimise the cruelty aspect and portray those against the cruelty as an almost peripheral movement. The last paragraph ("After years of increased pressure against bullfighting by abolitionist movements within Spain, the death of bullfighter Victor Barrio in July 2016 led to hundreds of comments being posted on various social media expressing joy towards the event and openly mocking his family and widow. This led to a significant backlash within Spain against anti-bullfighting activism, and criminal investigations are ongoing against those involved. Within a few days of Barrio's death, over 200,000 signatures had been collecting demanding action be taken against one such activist.") conveys a mostly unreferenced impression that critics of bullfighting are a quirky minority performing an antisocial acts whilst its supporters are 'the norm', rather than a global minority supporting an increasingly disapproved practice. There is no mention of the marked decline in acceptability of the practice in Spain in recent years. Attention is warranted to restore balance to an article which has something of the tone of pro-bullfighting propaganda throughout.

What you, Anonymous, say does not feel quite neutral to me neither, it is rather biased towards anti-bullfight PoV. As a person who lives in Spain, follows the news, and has personally attended a bunch of bullfighting events, I can't keep myself from noting:

<...> conveys a mostly unreferenced impression that critics of bullfighting are a quirky minority performing an antisocial acts whilst its supporters are 'the norm', rather than a global minority supporting an increasingly disapproved practice. The truth is in-between of these two PoVs. According to opinion polls, (e.g. https://www.elplural.com/sociedad/encuesta-mitad-espanoles-favor-prohibir-toros_239267102) about 48% of Spaniards want to prohibit bullfighting, about 19% want to conserve the practice, and the rest 35% do not care. As the current Wiki article mention, the attitude is actually very region-dependent, thus these %% will be quite different from region to region. IRL, should you go to a bullfight with known torreros, the events are usually fully sold out, mostly to locals, and sure not a thing attended just by a few crazy freaks, or just stupid tourists.

The paragraph about Victor Barrio is actually true story, and if you want more/better citations, just google it, as it was all over the Spanish news. In the nutshell it was like it is written: the guy was killed by a bull, folks who are anti-bullfight celebrated that, including lots of comments that infuriated lots folks who support bullfighting. As none of these groups are a minority, as you say, the scandal got lots of publicity, and a police investigation followed, as Spansih laws a somewhat stupid regarding what you can and cannot say in public. Birdofpreyru (talk) 22:56, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Map - Prevalence in 2012

Bullfighting, has evidently decreased in following since the 19th century (when Spain didn't even have football as an entertainment activity) but this map is patently false original research, particularly in those provinces marked in white in the two Castilles. Either a more realistic map is drawn or this one has to be removed, particularly since there is no sources to its claims. Asilah1981 (talk) 14:50, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

Same issue with map. I think the map has been modified but still, was there really more bullfighting in Huesca (for example) than in Valladolid in the 19th century. I just have trouble believing this. Tordesillas is in Valladolid for example.Asilah1981 (talk) 15:54, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Anti-bullfighting movement

I have a slight POV issue with the "anti-bullfighting movement" section. It seems to depict those who oppose bullfighting as a fringe movement motivated by political rather than animal welfare agendas. I'd say the opposite is true. Bullfighting is generally incompatible with modern Western values, but Castilians and Andulusians remain sentimentally attached to it because of it being a symbol of Spanish identity. Those who don't identify as Spanish per se don't feel this bond, and reject the spectacle on animal cruelty grounds, just like most people in the rest of Europe. The opposition against flamenco, guitars, or the Castilian language isn't quite as strong (could you imagine Catalonia banning flamenco? Or the selling of sangria?), even though these are equally potent symbols of a Spanish identity imposed on Spain's peripheral regions. Regionalism can't be the only reason for this widespread opposition. Steinbach (talk) 07:22, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

Steinbach No. Just to answer your argument (I remind you wikipedia isn't a forum), bullfighting is no more incompatible with modern western values than the industrial/intensive farming and slaughter methods prevalent in most northern European countries, unless we consider the Nazi gas chambers very much aligned with modern western values. No livestock in Europe (certainly nothing you have ever eaten) has neither the length nor quality of life of the Spanish fighting bull, but that is beyond the point and I don't want to keep you away from your chicken nuggets or Frikadelle. Regarding, identity politics the Catalan parliament protected its local version of bull-running simultaneously to banning bullfighting and Barcelona historically had among the highest number of "aficionados" in Spain. The ban in Catalonia was very much a matter of identity politics and there are a vast number of sources which explain and discuss this. The Spanish fighting bull is such a strong symbol of Spanish identity that Catalan nationalist youths repeatedly removed the Osborne bull from Catalonia many years ago. No one really drinks sangría in Spain, except perhaps German tourists, and it is certainly not a national symbol. It is surprising you use the example of Flamenco though, because the earliest Bullfighting movement was actually known as the "anti-flamencoist" movement (no kidding) whereby 19th century Spanish intellectuals simultaneously campaigned against bullfighting and Flamenco throughout the country. They saw both as core elements of Spanish identity which had to be removed to "Europeanize" Spain. Something similar happens with peripheral nationalist movements. Opposition to bullfighting within Spain has many reasons, animal welfare evidently plays a part, yet a small part. Foreign-funded NGOs and lobbying groups (e.g. Franz Weber Foundation), deeply rooted national complexes, the recent growth in far-left parties which tend to be hostile to tradition and, of course identity politics in certain regions are the core drivers of this movement.Vicensdiego (talk) 21:47, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

First of all: If Wikipedia isn't a forum, you are far more guilty of breaking this rule as I am. You are actually involving Hitler's concentration camps in the discussion, for God's sake! Also, I haven't said that bullfighting is any more cruel than industrial farming (which would be out of place on a Wikipedia talk page), I said that in the Western world, people generally don't watch spectacles where animals are teased into their own deaths for fun, except for Spain and some Latin American countries. Why? Surely not because all Europeans and North Americans are so anti-Spanish....

You cite the 19th century opposition to flamenco as an example of how both it and bullfighting are rejected on cultural grounds. It says a lot that you have to go that far back. People felt very different about animal rights then. Modern European values as they are today were not yet in place. So, what do you think has caused the Catalan government to ban bullfighting but not flamenco? Steinbach (talk) 06:41, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Steinbach There are so many flaws in your argument I frankly don't even know where to start. Firstly, the strange racist overtones in talking of your western values: Bullfighting actually only exists in the western world, it is a cultural manifestation of and inherent to the western world. It doesn't exist in African, Asian or Islamic countries, so how is that you claim "in the western world people generally don't..." Are you claiming they do this in the "barbaric eastern world"? Because they don't. It only happens in the west: Spain, Portugal, southern France and Latin America. Not Syria, not Iraq, not Congo, not China... Secondly, please tell me a western country where hunting (i.e. chasing, terrifying and brutally killing animals for fun, often teared apart by a bunch of dogs is forbidden? Is it? Anywhere in the "civilized" West? Do they even always eat the animals they hunt? No. Exactly. Boar hunting in Holland, a traditional sport, is a gruesome affair for the boar, and it is traditional there and it is done for fun. Thirdly, banning Flamenco? Really? Do you think it would be legally feasible to ban a musical genre anywhere except in North Korea? In Catalonia having your children receive Spanish-language education has been forbidden. Having your shop named or advertised in Spanish language is forbidden. There are plenty of examples manifestations of what is perceived as Spanish being attacked or persecuted. Even local associations dressing up as bullfighters and fooling around with a wheelbarrow and a cape has been forbidden. All that is explained here is that the ban on bullfighting within the cultural drive of identity politics and that why the same parliament which banned Spanish style bullfighting simultaneously reinforced the protection of bull-related events which also involved "mistreatment" of animals - i.e. bous al carrer. Fourthly, the only two differences between bullfighting and hunting in holland is that hunting in holland is done "for fun", whereas bullfighting is a highly ritualized and artistic form of slaughter which does not involve "fun" and secondly, contrary to hunting in Holland, the human party involved risks his life in this practice, severe injuries are common and deaths happen - not the same as chasing a boar with dogs and guns. Contrary to hunting in Holland, the animal is given a fighting to chance to defend itself and contrary to hunting in Holland a bull which fights well is often pardoned and allowed to live the rest of its life in the open. Vicensdiego22 (talk) 16:59, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

Women in Spanish-style bullfighting

I think this article should have more content on the role women played (and continue to play) in Spanish-style bullfighting. I noticed that on the Bullfighting article they had a section called "Women in bullfighting". Indeed the Spanish-style is the largest type of bullfighting and as such as the largest amount of women involved. I think this would improve the article. According to Britannica women have been bullfighting for centuries, despite the 1970s Supreme Court ruling. Donna Spencer^{talk-to-me⛅} 18:27, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Sources for future article expansion

Something worth noting:

• "Fight Between a Tiger and a Bull", Sacramento Daily Union, vol. 94, 16 February 1898.

Presumably the original London, Parisian, and Spanish sources should exist somewhere as well, although they might not be digitized as well. Also curious if the declaration about elephants was based on an actual fight or series of fights. There should be a mention of the specific animals tested if this was an ongoing thing. (Presumably it's stopped more recently.)

Also, any idea what the article's "Plaza de Madrid" was? Currently that's a red link but there are other articles mentioning it as well, even though Las Ventas doesn't and Fuente del Berro doesn't even know (per Las Ventas) that it used to have a major bullfighting ring. The article could also use a treatment of the major arenas over the years. — LlywelynII 07:18, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Where have you seen links to "Plaza de Madrid"? Usually, when people refer to "Plaza de Madrid" within the bullfighting context, they just mean Las Ventas. There is a slim chance somebody meant Plaza Mayor de Madrid, which historically (like in XVII century) was used for bullfighting, I believe, prior to the construction of dedicated bullfight arenas.

Fuente del Berro doesn't even know (per Las Ventas) that it used to have a major bullfighting ring Hmm... well Fuente del Berro is essentially where Las Ventas is :) I guess, the article means that prior to the construction of the nowadays Las Ventas there was a smaller arena in about the same place (or at least in the same neighborhood), which had to be expanded. Birdofpreyru (talk) 11:22, 15 August 2023 (UTC)