Talk:Social Democracy (Italy)
Latest comment: 2 years ago by Rotideypoc41352 in topic Requested move 7 April 2022
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 | On 7 April 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Italian Social Democratic Party to Social Democracy (Italy). The result of the discussion was moved. |
Category:Freemasonry in Italy
editCategorization follows the fact that one of the three foundeers, Giovanni Antonio Colonna di Cesarò, was a Freemason (cf.[[1] p. 50]).Theologian81sp (talk) 10:20, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
References
- ^ L'Italia 1945-1955: la ricostruzione del Paese e le forze armate (PDF). Congresso di Studi Storici Internazionali CISM- Sapienza Università di Roma (in Italian). Centro Alti Studi per la Difesa (Rome). November 20, 2012. p. 50. ISBN 978-88-98185-09-2. OCLC 884271366. Retrieved July 8, 2021. (Conference Proceedings)
Requested move 7 April 2022
edit- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: moved. Italian Social Democratic Party does not "unambiguously define the topical scope of the article" (WP:PRECISE). Social Democracy appears in English-language reliable sources on this party, is concise enough, and with (Italy), is precise enough to identify the subject. (non-admin closure) Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 23:51, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
Italian Social Democratic Party → Social Democracy (Italy) – I propose the move for multiple reasons: 1. it seems to me that this party is called in English-language sources exclusively "Social Democracy" (which, by the way, is the translation of the Italian alternative name of the party, "Democrazia Sociale") (see: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]); 2."Italian Social Democratic Party" is the other name by which the Italian Democratic Socialist Party is called in the sources, so it should redirect to that page. Scia Della Cometa (talk) 19:45, 7 April 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 16:24, 3 May 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. 晚安 (トークページ) 16:03, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose The current name is the literal translation of the party's official name. I do not see any benefit in moving the article to "Social Democracy (Italy)", which might seem it is the Italian version of "social democracy", the ideology. --Checco (talk) 15:13, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Checco: Are you so sure that the official name was that? Where is it established that this was the official name of the party? It seems to me that it is indistinctly called "Partito Democratico Sociale Italiano" or "Democrazia Sociale" by sources. The acronym (also present in the symbol) was DS. And above all, there are two valid reasons to move the page: 1. With the name "Italian Social Democratic Party", all sources refer to the Italian Democratic Socialist Party, not to this party (therefore the title of this page is extremely misleading); 2. all English-language sources refer to this party as "Social Democracy". If not, please demonstrate me otherwise. Finally, the rules of Wikipedia do not claim to translate the original name, they claim to use the most common name in the sources (in this case "Social Democracy", that is also the translation of the other Italian name of the party, "Democrazia Sociale").--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 19:03, 9 April 2022 (UTC)
- I’m going to have to oppose for now –we already have a clear mention in the lede of the shortened form of the party title, and a disambiguation link to the article about the PSDI. (I realise that the PSDI’s name is alternatively translated as “Italian Social Democratic Party” in a number of English language sources, but it’s not the predominant translation as far as I can tell. As long as we disambiguate, I don’t think there’s much room for confusion.)—Autospark (talk) 17:14, 10 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Autospark: If "Italian Social Democratic Party" is used by sources exclusively for another party, how can it be said that it is not confusing? If the sources use only one name for this party (except for one source, which however refers to it as "Democratic Social Party") how can you believe that the current title is correct and not misleading? I do not understand your position and that of Checco, as they seem to me to conflict with the Wikipedia policies...--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 07:58, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- "Italian Democratic Socialist Party" is a translation used for the name of the PSDI in many English language sources: Example 1, Example 2, Example 3, Example 4, Example 5, Example 6, Example 7, Example 8, Example 9, Example 10. So it is incorrect to claim that the PSDI's name is solely translated into English as the "Italian Social Democratic Party".--Autospark (talk) 13:47, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Autospark:Why are you answering me with a topic that has nothing to do with my proposal? Please to explain to me exactly where I said the "PSDI's name is solely translated into English as the Italian Social Democratic Party", and also explain to me when I proposed to move the PSDI's page. Why don't you show me instead the sources that refer to this party as "Italian Social Democratic Party"? I accept opinions that differ from mine, but I don't like oppositions based on nothing...--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 14:02, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- Sorry, wires crossed there. You have a point there that the party's name has been rendered as "Social Democracy" in some English language sources (or left untranslated as "Democrazia Sociale" example 1, example 2). However, I'm not sure we can justify changing the article title without an exhaustive search of the literature to really ascertain whether the references to "Italian Social Democratic Party" refer exclusively to the PSDI and not the PDSI/DS. I'm more neutral on this issue now, and you are right to point out that the literal name translation is often used to refer to the PSDI.--Autospark (talk) 15:07, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Autospark thank you for re-reading and re-evaluating the proposal. Of course I can't guarantee that 100% of the hits for "Italian Social Democratic Party" are references to "PSDI", but I could hazard a guess that the percentage is at least 99%. I don't know if the most common English name for PSDI is "Italian Social Democratic Party" or "Italian Democratic Socialist Party", that's not the problem. The problem is another and it is objective: exclusively the PSDI is known as "Italian Social Democratic Party". There are few English-language sources about this party (the PDSI/DS), but apparently none of them refer to it as the "Italian Social Democratic Party". These elements are enough to make the current title misleading and therefore unsuitable. The other possible translation would be "Italian Democratic Social Party", but it is not used in any source. I trust in your and Checco's common sense to change the title of this page to a more suitable one. Scia Della Cometa (talk) 16:02, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- Sorry, wires crossed there. You have a point there that the party's name has been rendered as "Social Democracy" in some English language sources (or left untranslated as "Democrazia Sociale" example 1, example 2). However, I'm not sure we can justify changing the article title without an exhaustive search of the literature to really ascertain whether the references to "Italian Social Democratic Party" refer exclusively to the PSDI and not the PDSI/DS. I'm more neutral on this issue now, and you are right to point out that the literal name translation is often used to refer to the PSDI.--Autospark (talk) 15:07, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Autospark:Why are you answering me with a topic that has nothing to do with my proposal? Please to explain to me exactly where I said the "PSDI's name is solely translated into English as the Italian Social Democratic Party", and also explain to me when I proposed to move the PSDI's page. Why don't you show me instead the sources that refer to this party as "Italian Social Democratic Party"? I accept opinions that differ from mine, but I don't like oppositions based on nothing...--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 14:02, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- "Italian Democratic Socialist Party" is a translation used for the name of the PSDI in many English language sources: Example 1, Example 2, Example 3, Example 4, Example 5, Example 6, Example 7, Example 8, Example 9, Example 10. So it is incorrect to claim that the PSDI's name is solely translated into English as the "Italian Social Democratic Party".--Autospark (talk) 13:47, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Autospark: If "Italian Social Democratic Party" is used by sources exclusively for another party, how can it be said that it is not confusing? If the sources use only one name for this party (except for one source, which however refers to it as "Democratic Social Party") how can you believe that the current title is correct and not misleading? I do not understand your position and that of Checco, as they seem to me to conflict with the Wikipedia policies...--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 07:58, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
- Comment I would like to clarify one thing: if this proposal is rejected only due to these two contrary opinion, I will resubmit it. I would not want the page to keep a title for reasons contrary to the Wikipedia policies. "Italian Social Democratic Party" is definitely the name by which another party is known, while this party is called by the sources with another name. So Checco's motivation for the literal translation does not stand in this case, and Autospark also did not provide a valid rationale for keeping the current title.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 15:51, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- Support per nom.
I think there's some validity to the ambiguity issue raised by Checco, so I wouldn't mind something like Social Democracy (political party) as an alternative (since that seems to be an unambiguous title).Colin M (talk) 19:50, 21 April 2022 (UTC)- Struck part of the above after noticing we have Social Democracy (Serbia) and Social Democracy (Mexico). Colin M (talk) 19:58, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
- Colin M, wouldn't keeping the status quo article title of "Italian Social Democratic Party" be a better solution, as it naturally disambiguates, unlike "Social Democracy (Italy)"? As long as we mention the party's alternative/shortened name (Social Democracy / Democrazia Sociale) in the lede, the keep the disambiguation link to the article on the PSDI, I don't see any strong need to alter the current situation.--Autospark (talk) 12:01, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- As I understand it, the problem with the current name is twofold. 1) It's very rarely used in RS compared to "Social Democracy". Per WP:NATURALDIS, we should not use "obscure or made-up names" as a means of natural disambiguation. 2) The current title is ambiguous with Italian Democratic Socialist Party. According to the nominator, it's even more strongly associated with that party than the one covered in this article and should be a primary redirect. (Though I would lean more towards making it a disambiguation page.) Colin M (talk) 14:32, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- It is not correct that the PSDI is solely or most commonly referred to in English language materials as the “Italian Social Democratic Party” – I’ve supplied examples above where the party is called the “Italian Democratic Socialist Party” in English.—Autospark (talk) 15:34, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- I think this is the same confusion as above. Let X be the total number of occurrences of the phrase "Italian Social Democratic Party" in RS. Let X_1 be the subset of those which refer to the subject of this article, and let X_2 be the subset which refer to the party described at Italian Democratic Socialist Party. The claim that I'm making above (by way of the nominator), is that X_2/X is not sufficiently close to 1 for the current title to be acceptable. The nominator seems to be suggesting that this fraction might be less than .5, but even if it were as high as, say, .9, this would still be a big problem, and I would still strongly prefer an unambiguous title. In your comment above, you're responding to a different hypothetical claim. Let Y be the total number of English RS references (using any name) to the party described at Italian Democratic Socialist Party. You're saying that X_2/Y is less than .5. That may well be true, but it's not relevant to the argument for moving. Colin M (talk) 16:04, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Autospark: Are you starting again to attribute statements that no one has made? I wonder if you do it on purpose: no one has stated that the PSDI is known "solely or most commonly" as the Italian Social Democratic Party. No one said that that page should be moved. Now stop muddying the waters, please. Here a very simple thing was said: for the Italian Social Democratic Party, the sources mean exclusively the PSDI, it is a fact. This is how it is: the PSDI is known both as the "Italian Social Democratic Party" and as the "Italian Democratic Socialist Party". No source refers to the party in question ("Partito Democratico Sociale Italiano" or "Democrazia Sociale") as "Italian Social Democratic Party". This is another fact. Natural disambiguation does not seem to me a motivation in this case and I don't think there is a Wikipedia policy that justifies the current title of this page.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 21:35, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- As for the other concerns expressed above, it would be sufficient to move the pages to "Social Democracy (Italian political party)", "Social Democracy (Serbian political party)" etc. Disambiguation is not the problem.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 21:39, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- SDC, it's more a case of "if it isn't broke, don't fix it", rather than any other concerns or objections – I realise that the PSDI was/is referred to as the "Italian Social Democratic Party" in English sources, but we disambiguate for that. By all means this article can be moved and retitled to "Social Democracy (Italy)" or (preferably) "Social Democracy (Italian political party)" if the consensus leads to that, but it seems more change for the sake of change than anything else. Also, apologies for my defensiveness of wanting to maintain the article on the PSDI at Italian Democratic Socialist Party, but I do have some concern that the article on PSDI will be altered in title to "Italian Social Democratic Party" if this article (PDSI) is moved, which I'd rather didn't occur.--Autospark (talk) 15:04, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Autospark But it is "broke": the "Italian Social Democratic Party" is another party, according to all sources. Nobody proposed to move the other page and this was not my purpose: for me the title of the other page is indifferent, I am not able to know the most common name of that party and therefore I am not interested in moving that page. I believe instead that "Italian Social Democratic Party" should be a redirect to the PSDI page or at least a disambiguation page, as proposed by the user Colin M. On the other hand, the opposition to a move for fear that this may virtually cause another page to be moved does not seem to me a correct motivation, they are two different topics.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 17:12, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
- SDC, it's more a case of "if it isn't broke, don't fix it", rather than any other concerns or objections – I realise that the PSDI was/is referred to as the "Italian Social Democratic Party" in English sources, but we disambiguate for that. By all means this article can be moved and retitled to "Social Democracy (Italy)" or (preferably) "Social Democracy (Italian political party)" if the consensus leads to that, but it seems more change for the sake of change than anything else. Also, apologies for my defensiveness of wanting to maintain the article on the PSDI at Italian Democratic Socialist Party, but I do have some concern that the article on PSDI will be altered in title to "Italian Social Democratic Party" if this article (PDSI) is moved, which I'd rather didn't occur.--Autospark (talk) 15:04, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
- I think this is the same confusion as above. Let X be the total number of occurrences of the phrase "Italian Social Democratic Party" in RS. Let X_1 be the subset of those which refer to the subject of this article, and let X_2 be the subset which refer to the party described at Italian Democratic Socialist Party. The claim that I'm making above (by way of the nominator), is that X_2/X is not sufficiently close to 1 for the current title to be acceptable. The nominator seems to be suggesting that this fraction might be less than .5, but even if it were as high as, say, .9, this would still be a big problem, and I would still strongly prefer an unambiguous title. In your comment above, you're responding to a different hypothetical claim. Let Y be the total number of English RS references (using any name) to the party described at Italian Democratic Socialist Party. You're saying that X_2/Y is less than .5. That may well be true, but it's not relevant to the argument for moving. Colin M (talk) 16:04, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- It is not correct that the PSDI is solely or most commonly referred to in English language materials as the “Italian Social Democratic Party” – I’ve supplied examples above where the party is called the “Italian Democratic Socialist Party” in English.—Autospark (talk) 15:34, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- As I understand it, the problem with the current name is twofold. 1) It's very rarely used in RS compared to "Social Democracy". Per WP:NATURALDIS, we should not use "obscure or made-up names" as a means of natural disambiguation. 2) The current title is ambiguous with Italian Democratic Socialist Party. According to the nominator, it's even more strongly associated with that party than the one covered in this article and should be a primary redirect. (Though I would lean more towards making it a disambiguation page.) Colin M (talk) 14:32, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- Colin M, wouldn't keeping the status quo article title of "Italian Social Democratic Party" be a better solution, as it naturally disambiguates, unlike "Social Democracy (Italy)"? As long as we mention the party's alternative/shortened name (Social Democracy / Democrazia Sociale) in the lede, the keep the disambiguation link to the article on the PSDI, I don't see any strong need to alter the current situation.--Autospark (talk) 12:01, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
The move of this page was requested almost a month ago: I thought it would be a formality, instead it was blocked by the unjustified opposition of two users. The "Italian Social Democratic Party" is another party, what are we discussing? Why is it so difficult to make even the most obvious changes? --Scia Della Cometa (talk) 20:28, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not "blocking" anything; it was just my opinion that this article didn't need retitling or moving. I'm not completely against moving this article to "Social Democracy (Italian political party)" if there is consensus for that move; currently though, I'd like to ask how you propose that the article title "Italian Social Democratic Party" be used if this article is renamed. Would you point it at a disambiguation page, redirect to "Social Democracy (Italian political party)" (or "Social Democracy (Italy)"), or redirect to Italian Democratic Socialist Party?--Autospark (talk) 20:46, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Autospark "Italian Social Democratic Party" should not be a redirect to this page. For me it could be a redirect for the PSDI or a disambiguation page (as proposed by Colin M), I am ok with both hypotheses. The only thing that really interests me is that the translated name of one party is not used for another party due to a simple coincidence of translation, as happened in this case.--Scia Della Cometa (talk) 21:07, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.