Talk:Sobre las olas

Untitled

I am author of a Rosas biography and have deleted a number of unproven assertions.

For example the statement that "Over the Waves" had been published first of all in New Orleans years before it was published by Wagner y Levien in 1888. During more than two decades of researching this subject I found several authors writing that, however, not a single one presented a source or reference. Until today I could find neither an exemplar of an edition released before 1888 nor another hard evidence for that assertion. Some refer to a mysterious music sheet at Tulane. There is one published by Junius Hart - in fact this is the only edition of "Over the Waves" they have according to the director of the Hogan Jazz Archive and Special Editions at Tulane, Bruce B. Raeburn. This music sheet does not contain any publication year, however, on the back cover we find a promotion for other pieces including an imprinted "copyright 1891 by Junius Hart". University library cataloging puts a question mark (see link below), Because of the imprint it canot have been published before 1891. (hb). http://voyager.tcs.tulane.edu/vwebv/holdingsInfo?searchId=185&recCount=10&recPointer=0&bibId=2740815

Another assertion is that the waltz frequently was attributed to Johann Strauss. With the exception of Silvestre Rodríguez' movie during all my research I have not found a single doubt on his authirsip.

Another assertion is that of Rosas presence at the World Cotton Centennial World's Fair in New Orleans 1884. There is not a single proof that at this time Rosas was member of a Mexican military band (his military years begun much later). In 1884 Rosas just had started taking classes at the conservatory in Mexico City, he matriculated into the conservatory in January 1884 and attended the Orfeón popular (Popular Choir). Helmut Brenner —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.115.151.182 (talk) 12:12, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Listening to the following performance of the waltz, one can very well imagine that it has been / is frequently attributed to Strauss, as it sounds very Viennese (and not very Mexican): [1]

(Unfortionately the performing orchestra is not mentioned in this video).

VKing (talk) 13:22, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

first published 1888??

How does Brenner reconcile his 1888 date with the existence of a 1885-published simplified arrangement of the score published by Hamelle of Paris? It seems difficult to imagine the work was first published after this simplified arrangement was. (see http://catalogue.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb43241870p - the [1885] generally means the date is probably not an actual copyright date but again probably still comes from the official French library stamp and can if so be relied on.) Schissel | Sound the Note! 01:39, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

What is the relationship between Sobre las Olas and An der schönen blauen Donau (The Blue Danube)

When I first heard Sobre las Olas, I thought it was Strauss's Blue Danube. These days such similarities would surely result in lawsuits. Are these really 2 different compositions and can anyone throw any light on their similarity? My curiosity was roused by thie article https://www.wfmt.com/2017/05/05/this-waltz-once-attributed-to-strauss-is-actually-by-indigenous-mexican-composer-juventino-rosas/?fbclid=IwAR3FdOLv0eA2neRKTMFkO6v6dxuK4Fl53yTYqIXpQ7gmVTiQxYFAs_Hr1ew — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.131.98.96 (talk) 06:28, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

They are both graceful orchestral waltzes, but beyond that, they don't have much in common to my ears. They have different rhythms - The Blue Danube being kind of 'jumpy' with lots of tension, while Sobre las Olas is 100% smooth and legato. They also have quite different melodies, aside from the 3rd, 4th and 5th notes which are generally similar, though not identical). Grand Dizzy (talk) 17:18, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 9 March 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move, after a month and multiple relistings. Cúchullain ^t/c 13:33, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

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Sobre las Olas → Over the Waves – This tune is so well known in the English-speaking world (and in general) as to be a cliché. It has an equally well known English-language title, "Over the Waves", and has appeared on English-language sheet music and various other English-language references for about a century. As of this writing, Over the Waves redirects to Over the Waves (film) but should be, instead, the main title header of this article. — Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 15:07, 9 March 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. SITH (talk) 15:26, 16 March 2019 (UTC)--Relisting. SITH (talk) 22:59, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Is it actually as well-known by its English-language title? The composition is certainly well-known in the English-speaking world, and its English-language title may be commonly used, but I've always been under the impression that the composition was best-known by its original, Spanish-language title. I did a quick google search, and although it appears that English-language sources often use both titles, most sources that I found appear to give precedence to the Spanish-language title. [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]

My search was hardly thorough, but regardless of which title is more commonly used, the Spanish-language title appears to be very well-known in the English-speaking world. So I'm inclined to continue using "Sobre las Olas" as the title of this page. --Jpcase (talk) 16:49, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

WP:ESTABLISHED states that "If a particular name is widely used in English-language sources, then that name is generally the most appropriate..." and, since there is no question that "Over the Waves" is very widely used in English-language sources, then it should take precedence on English Wikipedia, even if the Spanish-language name is also used in English-language sources. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 17:59, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Both names are widely used in English-language sources, so WP:ESTABLISHED doesn't seem to offer any clear guidance on the matter. I can understand wanting to give precedence to the song's English-language title on the English Wikipedia. But if a song's original, non-English-language title is widely used in English-language sources, then personally, I'd prefer that Wikipedia use the original title. Just my opinion though. --Jpcase (talk) 18:50, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Also to consider is WP:Article titles#Foreign names and anglicization: "In deciding whether and how to translate a foreign name into English, follow English-language usage. If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader." No one can argue that "there is no established English-language treatment" for this overly-familiar melody. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 19:45, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

That policy appears to be offering guidance on how to translate a foreign title, as opposed to offering guidance on whether to translate a foreign title - i.e. when I type "Sobre las Olas" into Google translate, the first result that I'm given is "On the Waves", but per the policy you've cited, this Wikipedia page shouldn't offer "On the Waves" as a possible English translation of the song's title, because the standard English-language treatment of the title is to translate it as "Over the Waves". --Jpcase (talk) 22:46, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Granted that the guideline might be phrased somewhat more distinctly as regards the use of the linked and piped term "translation|translate", given that we do not usually translate non-English-language titles of films, books, songs, artworks, etc, into English without providing sources that such works have been performed or exhibited in the English-speaking world under English titles.

Having stated that, however, the guideline does provide sufficient leeway for its interpretation as appropriate to the case at hand. The nuance depends not only upon the use of "whether" in "deciding whether and how to translate", but also in the use of the term "treatment" in "established English-language treatment for a name", thus confirming that the English form of the work's name need not be an exact or even an inexact translation, but simply whatever English name attaches to the work in the English-speaking world. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 23:50, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Sorry for the late response, and you're right, the policy does offer guidance on both whether and how to translate a title - I hadn't read carefully enough. All the same, I feel that the "English-language treatment" of a name doesn't necessarily have to be in the English-language. I believe that any title commonly used in English-language sources should be considered an established English-language treatment, even if that title is in a language other than English. So in this case - it seems to me that there are two English-language treatments of the title. One treatment is to simply offer the original, Spanish-language title; the other treatment is to translate the title as "Over the Waves". Many sources offer both treatments, but precedence is often given to the former treatment. And as I stated earlier, when a work of art's original-language title is commonly used in English-language sources, my personal preference would be to see Wikipedia use that original-language title. --Jpcase (talk) 15:52, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose better known by the Spanish name. Likewise the film should be moved to Sobre las Olas (film). The English Over the Waves probably is a PRIMARYREDIRECT to the tune not the film. In ictu oculi (talk) 19:19, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Note: Announcement of this discussion appears at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (use English). —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:05, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

How many times does this need relisting? It's clearly failed to gain support. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:27, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps notices at a couple of WikiProjects will engender greater participation. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 22:01, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Note: Announcement of this discussion appears at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Songs. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 22:01, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

• Comment The suggested target name, Over the Waves, is unsuitable because it's already used for the film. What is the waltz called in the cited sources, Oxford Companion to Music, Brenner (2000)? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:01, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the 2000 edition, but the 2011 edition, which can be seen here [7], says, "The waltz Sobre las olas ('Over the Waves'), by the Otomí Indian Juventino Rosas ( 1868–94 ), remains one of the most famous Latin American pieces worldwide." So both titles are given, but considering that the English-language title is relegated to parentheses, it does seem to me that the Spanish-language title is given precedence. --Jpcase (talk) 15:52, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

The suggested target name is perfectly suitable since it is unoccupied and serves as a redirect to the article for the Mexican cinematic production which has as its main title header, Over the Waves (film), not simply Over the Waves.

In naming discussions which center on works originating outside the English-speaking world, the key guideline should always be WP:COMMONNAME. Since this is the English Wikipedia, the initial question would be, "does this song/book/film, etc have a well-established English-language title?" Due to its continued use and overuse, this is one of the best-known tunes in all of music and the title "Over the Waves", is ingrained in English to an absolute degree, going back to the era of piano rolls, magic performances, circus and carousel music.

Unlike, for instance, "La Violetera" or "La Golondrina", which are known in English by those same names, the name "Over the Waves" is so established in English that it is indicated as a parenthetical title in the English-speaking world even in instances where the Spanish-language title is given first. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 04:49, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Are there 2 tunes with this same title?

The tune is known to be a slow, gentle waltz. That is the tune that plays when you click to play it on the right. But the article talks about it being a Latin American piece? Huh? It doesn't sound even remotely Latin American. Grand Dizzy (talk) 16:02, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Juventino Rosas Sobre las Olas Over the Waves.ogg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:22, 3 March 2022 (UTC)