Talk:Silvio Berlusconi/Archive 2

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Little sample of POV

In one of latest edits in the "Policy" section the phrase:

... Northern League are strongly anti illegal immigration ....

was changed into:

... Northern League are strongly anti-immigration ....

(Northern League is one of the parties of the government coalition).
Whoever knows italian politics knows also that the official position of this party is not against immigration "in itself" (which responsible party in which part of the world can be so?) but against the way this issue was handled in the past. Of course maybe that some (I think ignorant and low-level) members of this party would like to build a wall all-around Italy, but the point is that to present this as the line of the whole party is pure misinformation, in my opinion, the try to cast a prejudicial negative shadow onto the actual government, whenever it's possible. A further evidence of this is that one of the extensor of the Bossi-Fini law (Umberto Bossi) is the leader of Northern League itself. The Bossi-Fini law doesn't want to abolish the immigration but to regulate it (maybe in a wrong and too strict way, and that's the reason why now the law will be probably modified).
By the way my personal opinion is that immigrants are a fundamental resource for Italy and that one of a civil country's main duty is to integrate them.

Marius 22:02, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Maybe a little OT for Silvio Berlusconi's page, but the Lega Nord is indeed anti-immigration (if we want to avoid saying "anti-arab" and "anti-nigger" straight out). Please don't bend the truth, there are no political parties more oriented towards racism than Lega Nord on the Italian political scene. Their very name reveals the inherent discrimination against southern Italians or "Terroni". They are the only party since the Fascist party to have a own militia, the green shirts. The Bossi-Fini law, BTW, was ruled unconstitutional because it violated fundamental rights of immigrants, since denied them a fair trial. If we define "anti-immigrant" as "having an attitude that unfairly penalizes immigrants compared to regular citizens", I'd say that Lega Nord qualifies by a wide, wide margin; and I still have not started quoting people like Gentilini or Borghezio.

--Orzetto 18:57, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

A political party should be judged through its official statements, not through some of its members' beliefs. I don't think that Alleanza Nazionale (right wing party) is fascist if some of its supporters feels nostalgia for Mussolini, or that Rifondazione Comunista (left wing party) is stalinist if some of his followers consider Stalin the most important leader of the past century. Lega Nord is responsible of its own actions only toward italian laws and toward its voters. Even if we (me too) don't agree with Lega Nord position about immigration, we can't forget that many Italians think different. In democracies these are obvious things. These discussions are twice off topic: here, in this article, and here on Wikipedia that is just an encyclopedia. And, above all, not interesting for Wikipedians. Marius @ 21:13, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Please let's bear clear in our minds that Mussolini was an Italian who imposed his fascist regime onto Italians for over twenty years wherease Stalin imposed his upon Russians - the two ought to be kept separate for obsious reasons and for a sense of decency and respect towards the victims of these dictatorships. Italian stalinism is historically irrelevant, a non-issue; it has been made such by Mr Berlusconi's self-serving demagogy.

Vschwager 13:07, 20 March 2006 (UTC) Vincent

Recent image

current pic is 9 years old, i added a more recent one on commons from last month--27.123.136.92 (talk) 06:06, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.123.137.230 (talk) 06:19, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, image inserted in the article, I think it's better using the latest photos when they are available. Lawtheagoraphobic (talk) 01:06, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 July 2019

Please feature Berlusconi's European Parliament Constituency in the infobox section "Member of the European Parliament". 70.29.38.15 (talk) 03:18, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

 Done --Ritchie92 (talk) 11:56, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Remove section on trials/legal problems, replace with link to article on that topic

The Legal Problems section is a partial and outdated copy of the Trials and allegations involving Silvio Berlusconi article. May I suggest removing the long, but partial section of this article and just linking to the more current material in the (also long) more specific one? IAmNitpicking (talk) 19:25, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

Mussolini

"Berlusconi was the first person to assume the premiership without having held any prior government or administrative offices."... er, isn't that Mussolini? john k (talk) 22:59, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 June 2020

Change "Kingdom of Italy" to "Italian Republic" 151.42.141.42 (talk) 11:17, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Galendalia Talk to me ^{CVU Graduate} 17:45, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

I gather the OP is talking about the birthplace in the infobox? The point being that Milan is in the Italian Republic now? Surprisingly I've been unable to find any clear statement about this in the Manual of Style or even in the infobox documentation, but if you look through other biographies, you'll see that the clear practice is to name the sovereign that controlled the birthplace at the time. The Italian Republic did not exist until 1946, so that was certainly not it. --Trovatore (talk) 06:42, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 September 2020

Instead of saying mussolini signed a pact to terminate jews why not unknowingly admit that he stood next to but did not actively take part in terminating Jews. Despite his persona i've come to notice people ridiculing Mussolini and it creates confusion. I wasn't there but i've seen footage of him meeting Hitler, the person that actually asked for the Holocaust to happen. There's a difference please don't use the term Terminate or place him next to this term "Jew" because I support Italy. I don't find it necessary to dig into why he met Hitler or why Hitler went to Paris. Just avoid saying he co-signed anything during the Holocaust and termination of Jews.

Berlusconism 108.76.80.249 (talk) 18:37, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. It's not clear what changes you want to make. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 19:06, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Documentary "My Way: The Rise and Fall of Silvio Berlusconi" by Alan Friedman should be added

Would somebody with rights paste this sourcecode for Documentaries

• Citizen Berlusconi – The Prime Minister and the Press, 2003
• Viva Zapatero!, directed by Sabina Guzzanti, 2005
• Quando c'era Silvio, documentary film directed by Beppe Cremagnani e Enrico Deaglio, 2005
• My Way: The Rise and Fall of Silvio Berlusconi, documentary film by Alan Friedman, 2016 — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Kendyman can (talk • contribs) 11:36, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

--The Kendyman can (talk) 10:32, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on October, 24th, 2020

The incipit should specify that Silvio Berlusconi is a convicted criminal, like it does for his two co-founders of the Forza Italia political movement, Cesare Previti and Marcello Dell'Utri. Instead of: "Silvio Berlusconi is an Italian media tycoon and politician who served as Prime Minister of Italy [...]", it should read: "Silvio Berlusconi is an Italian media tycoon, politician and convicted criminal. He served as Prime Minister of Italy [...]". This information is crucial to apprehend the public image of Berlusconi and his historical role in Italian politics, so it should be put forward in the first line. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nusco (talk • contribs) 09:01, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Mediaset production center, Cologno Monzese, metropolitan city of Milan, Italy.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:23, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Putin supporter

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-09-23/putin-was-pushed-into-ukraine-war-says-italys-berlusconi <-- should be incorporated in the article 50.111.34.139 (talk) 23:50, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Birthday Update

It should be updated, as he recently just turned 86. With all that makeup he looks so much younger, but yes, he really is closer to being 90 than to the year 2018! 146.200.180.251 (talk) 00:58, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Modern English

Why is this article written in Victorian English, and not in Modern International English ("American"), when Italy is not part of Britain? Or has never been occupied by the Empire? Should be changed and modernized. Wikipedia is for an International audience if I remember correctly (: 2003:D5:D723:6A00:D507:E1BF:38E9:8725 (talk) 23:51, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Member of both houses?

Can he be a member of the European parliament and Italy Senate? Djallese (talk) 19:11, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Silvio Berlusconi May 1994.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 05:07, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Italy in 2023

Hello, @Ymblanter! I can't edit your talk page because of a parameter error that someone else left, so I'm bringing this here: Your recent revision is noted, but it appears you have edited the "death place" field! Is it not the "Republic of Italy" in 2023? — Nameless^(?) 09:25, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

I am sorry, the intention was to change the birth place. I assume this is fixed by now. I will also try to fix my talk page, not sure what is happening there. Ymblanter (talk) 11:35, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

He was hospitalizated again

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/09/world/europe/pope-francis-silvio-berlusconi-hospitalized-italy.html Death Editor 2 (talk) 01:26, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Org

This article is poorly organized with 17 main sections and no sub sections. Someone who knows the subject should correct this. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 09:31, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Technical reason: The subsections are actually hidden due to {{TOC limit|2}} (as an apparent means of curbing the article's display length). --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 10:24, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

• I've added {{section sizes}} above to help understand the overall structure. Andrew🐉(talk) 07:56, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 June 2023

please change current to former (see page Andrej Babiš):

Andrej Babiš, the former Prime Minister of the Czech Republic

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cocobb8 (💬 talk to me! • ✏️ my contributions) 16:56, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Marta Fascina marriage

The infobox says that he married Marta Fascina in 2022, however there's no mention of this outside the infobox in this article nor a mention of their marriage is seen in Fascina's article. In Fascina's article it says that they were simply dating from 2020 until his death. Is there a reliable source confirming their marriage in 2022 and if so, can we add this in both their articles? 2601:249:8E00:420:B93B:A3A7:4E32:53B2 (talk) 21:12, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 June 2023 (2)

In The "Comparisons to other leaders" section under "Berlusconism" the part where it speaks of Andrej Babiš, that phrase needs amending because it says he is the current Prime Minister of the Czech Republic. His tenure was from 6 December 2017 to 17 December 2021. Echo-Phyber-Echo (talk) 21:37, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done. Obvious change. Note the source used there is from 2015 (when AB was not PM yet) and cited in 2018 (when AB was PM), which explains the choice of wording not based on the source used. Pavlor (talk) 05:16, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

"Then Finance Minister of the Czech Republic" would be also useable (and correct by the source). Pavlor (talk) 05:19, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done Paradise Chronicle (talk) 07:34, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Circular reporting?

A few hours after Silvio Berlusconi's death, one user added the following sentence: "Berlusconi rose into political background of Italy in late 60s, after being helped by both politician Piersanti Mattarella and singer Elena Zagorskaya". The sentence was lately modified as follows: "Berlusconi rose into the financial elite of Italy in the late 1960s after being influenced and assisted by both Italian politician Piersanti Mattarella and singer Elena Zagorskaya". It looks like fake news, but I have no way to prove it as I have no chance to check the first given source (this book). Before the edit, no other source mentioned Piersanti Mattarella and Elena Zagorskaya related to Berlusconi, but, hour after hour, several news outlets all around the world have started citing the two. It is possibly a resounding case of circular reporting (see also Wikipedia:Verifiability#Wikipedia and sources that mirror or use it). I am going to remove the sources that have clearly mirrored Wikipedia and add a "verify source" tag for the book. I hope other users can check the information, which, true or false, look redundant at best. Possibly, this case will be added to the list at Circular reporting#Examples on Wikipedia. -- Checco (talk) 18:00, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Seems irrelevant enough, can be removed altogether. The article quality is already not the best, we do not need more poorly sourced information. Yakme (talk) 21:40, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree that the information is irrelevant, not just redundant. Is it also false? That Berlusconi was influenced and, above all, assisted by Piersanti Mattarella and Elena Zagorskaya seems quite implausible. In my view, it has been an incredible example of circular reporting: before the inclusion of the information Wikipedia by an obscure user, there was nothing in the web about it (I checked that immediately after), now there are thousands of Google hits! I am sorry I started this thread three days late. --Checco (talk) 06:03, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I would go ahead and remove it if there are no RS predating his death. Hemiauchenia (talk) 06:19, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

As an Italian, I confirm it's not true that Berlusconi was helped by Piersanti Mattarella and Elena Zagorskaya.--Vernel222 (talk) 08:09, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

More than 2,100 news sources on the web now link Berlusconi with the figures of Piersanti Mattarella and Elena Zagorskaya. More than likely, it is a case of circular reporting, caused by an inaccurate edit in Wikipedia. Would it be a good candidate for Circular reporting#Examples on Wikipedia? --Checco (talk) 20:34, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

@Checco: Only if there is a reliable source that mentions the circular reporting. Otherwise this is WP:OR. The very addition of this to the article about circular reporting is also WP:NOTSOURCE and WP:CIRCULAR, funny enough. The only place I can find that mentions the "problem" is this Wikipedia talk page. Renerpho (talk) 05:53, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for pinging you twice, Checco (once here, and once on the talk page at Circular reporting). Maybe I should have combined both comments, and put both of them in one place. In fact, I have just opened a third thread about this, at Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#Circular_reporting_at_Silvio_Berlusconi?, where I replied to your comment again. Renerpho (talk) 06:25, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

The book doesn't contain anything to back up the details added, and all other reporting of the details is after they appeared here. Nor does any source I could find that predates the addition here mention anything similar. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 12:38, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

NPOV: "which he restricted freedom of information"

This is extremely debatable sentence, which should not be written as a fact. Before Berlusconi's entrepreneurial activity (and lobbying), Italy had only state-controlled TV (Rai 1 and Rai 2). Considering that Berlusconi made a strong contribution to private television (at first it was illegal or for technical/legal reasons almost impossible to open a private network) it is ridiculous to write that he "restricted freedom of information." 93.45.229.98 (talk) 18:55, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Berlusconi wikiarticle corrections/edits

Record of suggested edits (for accounts without edit ability/permission, or want consensus before editing):

1. Section "Family Background & Personal Life"; addition- clarity/cohesion: missing information, also does not match corresponding article "Veronica Lario". Section end (corresponding to footnote 38, regarding Verlusconi/Lario divorce, last entry 2012): needs updated information (2020; https://milano.corriere.it/notizie/cronaca/20_febbraio_06/silvio-berlusconi-veronica-lario-accordo-definitivo-divorzio-b3e9cc3a-48db-11ea-91e8-775bd36e4cb6.shtml); could also be supplemented by addition of the 2013, 2015 & 2017 settlement alterations.

2. Sentence at citation/footnote 448; line edit- clarity/coherence. replace "in an Adamic dress"; author obfuscation- euphemism for "nude/naked/unclothed" MadLadLana (talk) 22:42, 16 December 2023 (UTC)