Talk:Sd.Kfz. 8

Gearbox

Hi, StormBird and congrats on the continuing GA status. Nevertheless, I'm fairly sure that the transmission fitted to the Sd.Kfz. 8 used a conventional 4-speed manual gearbox. If the statement that it used a semi-automatic g/box actually appears in Spielberger's book, I would have to disagree, much as I normally respect his work.

As far as I am aware, the only half-tracks that used this type of gearbox were the Sd.Kfz 10 and its derivative, the 250. There is a very clear diagram here: As you can see, the gear levers slide in a fore-and-aft motion in a slot like a modern automatic gearbox. Photos such as these very clearly demonstrate the arrangement, with the levers level with the driver's seat.

All the other pre-selector gearboxes were fitted in the tanks, almost as big as the engine, in an arrangement somewhat like this: File:Pz III Motor-Getriebe.svg where the driver was physically level with the gearbox, not above it.

Unfortunately, this page from the Handbook on German Military Forces fails to mention the gearbox fitted to the 8. However, visual evidence is at hand: various photos demonstrate the floor-mounted gear lever arrangement in the Sd.Kfz. 8 with the last photo being especially clear. And this.

In addition, Maybach's own nomenclature uses no space between the HL and the engine size, namely HL85 TUKRM. Explanations can be found at List of WWII Maybach engines. Furthermore, the HL85 TUKRM developed 185PS, not hp.

I suggest, therefore, that the paragraph should read something like:

The Sd.Kfz. 8 had a ladder frame chassis. Power was provided by a Maybach 12-cylinder, water-cooled, 8.52 litre (520 cu in) HL85 TUKRM gasoline engine developing 185 PS (182 hp; 136 kW) at 2,500 rpm. It had a conventional manual gearbox with 4 forward speeds and 1 reverse. It had two fuel tanks, one of 210 litres (55 US gal), and a reserve of 40 litres (11 US gal) capacity.

Cheers, >MinorProphet (talk) 11:48, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

References

Sadly, I no longer have access to Spielberger, but I think that this is where we run afoul of WP:V. Neither Jentz, Chamberlin & Ellis, nor the Nuts & Bolts volume on the vehicle provide any useful information on the gearbox's mode of operation, so we have no choice but to follow Spielberger, even if he is wrong.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:08, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Well, if you no longer have access to Spielberger, who is going to confirm the truth or otherwise of the statements? Do you deny everything in my post? WP:WikiBlame points towards you as having made the edits in question. I suggest that the statements in question be deleted, or at least a {{cn}} needs inserting. Best wishes, >MinorProphet (talk) 15:55, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

My edits only attest to what Spielberger wrote, nothing else. Your evidence is suggestive, but not conclusive. If you find an author who states differently, feel free to change things accordingly. But pictures cannot be used as RS unless they're interpreted by a published author. We're not published authors and our interpretations are irrelevant. A cn note isn't appropriate because the text is accurate; I'd suggest that you add a note stating that Spielberger might be wrong based on photographic evidence and leave it at that. I might also suggest that you procure your own copy of his book and check to see that I didn't make a mistake as that's certainly not out of question.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:50, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your pertinent and valuable comments. I had a look at prices for Spielberger's book, but £30-40 second-hand is frankly beyond my means. I didn't look at the other images from the official Sd.Kfz. 8 parts list when I reffed it above, but these photos, Figs. 4 & 5, clearly depict a standard gearbox with floor-mounted levers for main gearbox (Schaltgetriebe) high/low range box (Untersetzungsgetriebe) and winch control (Seilwindegetriebe). To me, it is blindingly obvious that the pre-selector gearbox reffed in my previous post is not depicted. Sadly, there is no mention of the gearbox type, and as you say pictures are not reliable evidence. Meantime, I have ordered German Heavy Half-tracked Prime Movers, 1934-1945 by Reinhard Frank for around a tenner, which may resolve our little impasse. Best wishes, >MinorProphet (talk) 10:39, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

'German Half-track vehicles of WW2' by John Milsom lists Sdkfz 8 has having a ZF 4+1 gearbox. Other halftracks listed as having similar 4+1 gearboxes. SdKfz 10 listed as having Maybach Variorex 7+3 gearbox. Book mentions the DB s7 (early production Sdkfz 8) using a constant-mesh-gearbox. --Denniss (talk) 11:49, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Do you have access to Interlibrary loan or similar program? That's what I use for the expensive ones. My local library limits me to three at a time, but it's saved me tons of money over the years. Sadly Thomas Jentz didn't publish a volume on the Sd.Kfz 9 in his Panzer Tracts series before his death as that probably would have covered the transmission a little more in depth than the other sources that we've looked at.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 12:24, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

(Edit Conflict, mostly repeating Denniss's post:) − In the meantime, John Milsom's German Half-Tracked Vehicles of World War 2: Unarmoured Support Vehicles of the German Army 1933-45, p. 92 (available here) indicates that a standard 4/1 manual gearbox was fitted to the Sd.Kfz. 8, like all the other half-tracks except the Sd.Kfz. 10 which was equipped with a 7/3 Variorex pre-selector box (Milsom, pp. 88-89). I'm beginning to suspect that Spielberger simply states that the Sd.Kfz. 8 did indeed have a conventional manual 4/1 gearbox and that the semi-automatic operation is akin to wishful thinking. My local library is closed because of the Covid restrictions. Cheers, >MinorProphet (talk) 12:40, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Sorry to hear about your library being closed. Like Denniss says, Milsom says that the DB s7 model had a constant-mesh gearbox, but his table on p. 92 doesn't mention that, just the ZF 4 + 1 that everybody refers to. So I dunno which is correct, but it does impeach Milsom's ability to definitively settle the issue.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:13, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Well Frank's German Heavy Half-tracked Prime Movers, 1934-1945 arrived from Blackwell's yesterday. It's full of interesting photos and information, but annoyingly it has zilch on the gearbox apart from the oil levels - 8 and 14 litres respectively for the main and reduction gearboxes. (p. 4) See also ZF datasheet here. There is a numbered view of the cab on p. 7, which as expected shows the typical floor-mounted gear leavers of the assumed 4+1 box. On page 16 there is a good photo of starting the engine with the hand-crank, the hole is just forward of the front drive sprocket on the rh side. The photo also shows a small acetylene generator attached to the air intake for improved cold starting. None of this helps to solve the g/box problem, however. As you say, the Nuts & Bolts volume by Hettler only gives 4+1.

Let's ensure we are using the same terminology: Manual transmission#Overview has some clear animations. The older sliding mesh ('crash gearbox') type where the entire gear is moved up and down the shaft, were almost all non-synchro. In the constant mesh type, as the name implies, all the gear pairs are constantly meshed, and only the dog clutches move to engage a ratio. This mechanism was used in the ZF Aphon series. ZF history, click on 1930. Although some Aphon boxes were fully synchronized, especially for passenger cars, the halftracks were non-synchro (such as the ZF's ZG 45 and 55 in the Sd.Kfz. 6 & 7).[1]. This website, citing Doyle, Friedli, and Jentz - Panzer Tracts No.22-4: Mittlerer Zugkraftwagen 8t (Sd.Kfz.7), says that the ZG55 used in the 8-ton Sd.Kfz. 7 had a 5+1 configuration. Thus Milsom's "constant mesh" is not inconsistent with 4+1 or 5+1, it's just another way of describing the Aphon series - I imagine we agree that the g/box fitted to the 12-tonner is an Aphon type? Here, just for the info, is a picture of the Fichtel & Sachs Mecano LA80 clutch, listed in the Handbook on German Military Forces reffed above. This obviously gives no clue as to the g/box. I also keep coming across the ZF G 65 VL230 fitted to the 18-tonner being described as synchromesh, which may well be the case.

My main point continues to be that only the 7+3 Variorex (Sd.Kfz 10 & 250) used this kind of pre-selector mechanism, and I find it increasing hard to believe Spielberger's claim. Of course, I am always happy to change my views. The tale continues... MinorProphet (talk) 16:49, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Maybe I'll try and get Spielberger through ILL to see if I just didn't make a copy paste error from when I was working on all the half-track articles.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:31, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Well, @Sturmvogel 66: some heavy-duty digging (ahem) has turned up a copy of Spielberger in German. Pages 163-4 have all the model numbers. The DB s 7 and s 8 with the Maybach DSO8 had a 'ZF Schubvorgelege' box, the DB 9 (1938-9) with the HL85 TUKRM had a 'ZF Allklauen', and the main production series, the DB 10 has a 'ZF Spezial Schubvorgelege', with no further info. Most frustrating. All the g/boxes are shown as 4/1 x2 (ie 4/1 in both hi and lo ranges). (A very swift web search indicates that the Allklauen series may have been 5- and 6- speed boxes.)

The term 'Schubvorgelege' applies to a number of other gearboxes in the technical data section as well. For the other half-tracks, the wartime production series of the 3-ton Sd.Kfz 11 had a Hanomag Schub-021-32785- U 50, 4/1 x2 (p. 158). All variants of the 5-ton Sd.Kfz 6 have a 'ZF Schubvorgelege', 4/1 x2. Of the the three variants of the 8-ton Sd.Kfz. 7 (p. 162), one is listed as having a "ZF ZG 55 Schub-", and the other two as "ZF Aphon G 55", all 4/1 x2. A "ZF Aphon" was installed in the first 18-ton Sd.Kfz. 9s (1936-7), and from 1938 onwards a "ZF G 65 VL230". The term 'Schubvorgelege' goes back to at least 1906 (see Der Motorwagen und seine Behandlung p. 89 [pdf 103]) and although it translates as something like 'thrust reduction gear' or 'thrust transmission' or 'intermediate gear' it could refer to the hi/lo splitter box. How's your German? MinorProphet (talk) 00:30, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

My technical German really doesn't encompass automotive terminology, but lemme pull out the Jentz volumes on those other half-tracks and see how he characterizes them.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 03:01, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Jentz describes the DB m 8 model of the Sd.Kfz. 7 as using a ZF ZG55 gearbox with four forward speeds, followed by an auxiliary two-speed gear in the same housing with a second gear lever. The KM m 9 and later models had a ZF "Typ G55 transmission with four forward speeds, followed by a separate 2-ratio auxiliary box for road and cross-country speeds".--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 03:15, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

The BN I 8 and DB I 8 models of the Sd.Kfz. 6 had a "transmission comprised a gearbox with four forward speeds followed by a two-speed auxiliary gearbox and a Cletrac controlled differential, all in the same housing." And the wartime production BN 9 models had the same type.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 03:34, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps bringing all the info together might clarify things:

• Sd.Kfz. 10
  • D6 - Demag-Adler Shub- (Spielberger 1993, p. 157)
  • D7 (1938-44) - Maybach SRG 102 128H Variorex 7+3 (Spielberger 1993, p. 157)
  • D7 (1938-9) - Maybach pre-selective semi-automatic SRG 102 128H. (Handbook [2])
  • D7 (1940) - Maybach Variorex VG102128H (Handbook [3])
  • Maybach 7+3 preselective (Spielberger & Feist, Halbkettenfahrzeuge: German Halftrack Vehicles (1968) [pdf p. 17])
    • Maybach changed the name from SRG to Variorex in 1939. (Spielberger 1994 Sturmgeschütze: Entwicklung und Fertigung der sPak p. 37).
• Sd.Kfz. 11
  • "Normal 4-speed type with auxiliary gearbox" - also on the 251. (Handbook [4])
  • Hanomag Schub-021-32785- U 50 (Spielberger 1993, p. 158)
  • Hanomag 4+1 x2 box fitted to Sd.Kfz. 11 H Kl 6, and the Sd.Kfz. 251 H Kl 6p. (Spielberger & Feist, Halbkettenfahrzeuge: German Halftrack Vehicles (1968) [pdf pp. 23 and 34] )
• Sd.Kfz. 6
  • BN L7 – Zahnradfabrik Aphon gearbox type G.45 V. (non-synchromesh) (Handbook [5])
  • BN I 8 and DB I 8: "transmission comprised a gearbox with four forward speeds followed by a two-speed auxiliary gearbox and a Cletrac controlled differential, all in the same housing." (Jentz)
  • All variants have a 'ZF Schubvorgelege', 4/1 x2. (Spielberger 1993 p. 162)
• Sd.Kfz. 7
  • KM m 8 – Zahnradfabrik ZG 55, described as "Non-synchronized" (Handbook [6])
  • KM m8 "ZF ZG 55 Schub-" (Spielberger 1993 p. 162)
  • DB m 8 - ZF ZG55 gearbox with four forward speeds, followed by an auxiliary two-speed gear in the same housing with a second gear lever.(Jentz)
  • Nice photo of a ZG 55: p. 141, ed. by Olaf v. Fersen
  • Later models had a ZF "Typ G55 transmission with four forward speeds, followed by a separate 2-ratio auxiliary box for road and cross-country speeds" (Jentz)
  • KM m9 & m10 - "ZF Aphon G 55" (both Spielberger 1993 p. 162)
• Sd.Kfz. 8
  • DB s 7 and s 8 with DSO8 - 'ZF Schubvorgelege'
  • DB 9 (1938-9) with HL85 TUKRM 'ZF Allklauen',
  • DB10 - 'ZF Spezial Schubvorgelege'. (all Spielberger 1993, 163-4)
• Sd.Kfz. 9
  • FM Gr 1 - "ZF Aphon"
  • F2, F3: ZF Type G 65 VL230. (both Spielberger 1993 p. 165)
  • F2, F3: Zahnradfabrik Type G 65 VL230. (Handbook [7])

All these gearboxen (except the Variorex) are described as 4+1 x2 in essentially all the sources we have discussed, and it appears that they all work in the same way, with a shift stick, a range stick and winch PTO where fitted. But the Sd.Kfz. 8 continues to disappoint. There is almost nothing from which to deduce that the 'ZF Schubvorgelege' is necessarily an Aphon, although it seems possible. Almost all web hits about the 'ZF Allklauen' indicate there were many different types, possibly still being made today. What was so special about the 'ZF Spezial Schubvorgelege'? Grr. MinorProphet (talk) 06:57, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Although neither of the following seem to have been used in the ½tracks we've been discussing, here's an Aphon G25 with just the gear shift + rear coupling.[8], yours for €999, sir, ta: and here is a good picture of an Aphon G35 with separate range box attached to a Mercedes Benz G3A.[9], similar to what Jentz describes as fitted to the Sd.Kfz. 7 KM m9 & m10, and which Spielberger also calls Aphons.

Tentative conclusions so far

It seems then that the all Aphons have a G prefix (ie G25, G35 G45, G55), and all have a separate range box. See also historical info in ZF data sheet. All those not described as Aphons have a ZG prefix. and would appear to be of unit construction, ie everything is inside the one housing. In Spielberger 1993 (Halftracks 1909-1945), p. 90, is a photo of (probably) a ZF G 65 VL230 being adjusted in the factory on an 18-tonner. It's a massive oblong block of unit construction with speed, range and winch levers, with the PTO shaft driving the winch on the right. The sources above don't describe it as an Aphon although it is a G65. Probably the Germans having an illogical moment. Still no further with the Sd.Kfz 8 tho... MinorProphet (talk) 10:52, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

In Surviving Sd.Kfz 8 & 9s pdf p. 2, there is a shot of a DB 10 showing the g/b, but all a bit fuzzy. Also pdf p. 13, rebuild of an 18-tonner, Fahrgestellnumber 46600, built in 1944, with similar gearbox (I think) to the factory shot I mentioned above.

Spielberger says the Sd.Kfz 8 DB 10 had the 'ZF Spezial Schubvorgelege': so that would be what's in the pic of the surviving DB 10 in the pdf above. I've been looking again at the pics in my first post, and thanks to our most fruitful discussion I can see that refs 6 and 7 show two different arrangements of gear levers: National Military History Center, Auburn, Indiana and Jacques Littlefield Collection. The first has one long and one short lever (ie shift and range), located very close to each other, with a simple-looking handbrake: the second has two levers of approximately equal length, separated by some distance, and a more complex design of handbrake. In my opinion they probably show different gearboxes. As we agreed at the beginning, photos are not evidence, but I'm just trying to build up a picture of what the various boxes actually look like.

The Frank book which I recently bought turns out to be useful: the numbered view of the transmission of a DB 10 on page 13 shows (presumably) Spielberger's 'ZF Spezial Schubvorgelege' labelled no. 2, 'transmission and reduction gearbox'. This looks very much like the photo of the Jacques Littlefield Collection. However, devil, details etc.: that photo doesn't have the two levers on the dashboard to the left of the steering wheel which operate the radiator shutters and hand throttle, but it does have the links/rechts wheel position indicator... There's possibly a case for writing a Jentz-style book entitled Sd.Kfz 8: Variants and Production Changes haha MinorProphet (talk) 12:53, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

The Nuts & Bolts book is pretty much just that. Since all photos of the surviving examples are of DB10s, (Nuts & Bolts p. 73) the apparent differences must be me hallucinating. MinorProphet (talk) 13:59, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Snicker--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:42, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Marathon to you too... Anyway, the bare dashboard in question appears to be a poor attempt at a reconstruction from scratch. Soo, what else, if anything, used a 'Spezial Schubvorgelege'? The Trippel SG6 Schwimmwagen, according to Spielberger 1992, Beute-Kraftzeuge und -Panzer der Deutschen Wehrmacht Motorbuch Verlag Stuttgart, 2nd ed., p. 309. Almost of all the other gearboxes in all the other equipment in the book are simply described as 'Schubvorgelege'. Also, the Italian it:Breda 61 used a ZF Schubvorgelege 5+1 (p. 315), thus the inconsistency in the Sd.Kfz. 7 noted above. The French Panhard 178 interestingly had a pre-selector g/box with reverse (Vorwahl-, Umkehr-) (p. 316)

And what is a 'Schubvorgelege' anyway? Maybe I will ask at the Reference Desk. MinorProphet (talk) 17:37, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Allklauen transmission

Well well, I hunted around for a bit for ZF Allklauen transmissions which Spielberger 1993 states were fitted to the DB 9 variant of the Sd.Kfz. 8 in 1938-9. I found lots of references to post war 5- and 6-speed boxes as mentioned earlier. Then I stumbled across a 7+1 Allklauen AK 7-200 transmission, fitted to the Panther tank.[10], with good pics. I rather think that a Panther transmission in a 12-tonner would be overdoing it somewhat, but this type would obviously incorporate a pre-selector mechanism like all the other tank g/boxes: so we may be onto something. This ZF catalogue (in German) lists the the post-war Allklauen models on p. 14: 5-speed AK 5-25, -33, -35 & -140, and 6-speed AK 6-55, -70 & -75. The illustrations are hilarious. The synchro versions (S 5-25 uzw.) are on p. 18. MinorProphet (talk) 10:54, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

""but this type would obviously incorporate a pre-selector mechanism..." Well, I was "obviously" wrong. >:MinorProphet (talk) 02:40, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

Interestingly, the AK 6-75 on p. 15 bears a considerable resemblance to the ZF SRG 102 as fitted in the Sd.Kfz. 10 which I reffed in my OP.[11]. They both show the same type of compressed-air mechanism for moving the dog clutches, shown on pp. 25-27. The drawing of the Friedrichshafen plant on p. 30 is stunning. Although this is all post-war stuff, the technology had evidently been developed since the mid-to late 1930s. Since Spielberger 1993 states that all the boxes fitted to the 12-tonners were 4+1, we may need to be searching for something like an inferred heavy-duty AK 4-55 or something.

By the way, my Frank German Heavy Half-Tracked Prime Movers book has some pertinent information for the article, so I'm intending to update it accordingly. Onwards and upwards... MinorProphet (talk) 10:54, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Well a search for an AK 4-type gearbox has returned nothing, but the AK 5-25 was apparently in production during the war: it was intended to be fitted to the 'Rutscher', a projected late-war mini tank destroyer with no entry on WP. I haven't looked for the maximum torque which this gearbox was designed to cope with, but it was evidently fine with the 90 hp of the intended 3.5 litre BMW engine. Here's another web page in German.[12] This could also possibly be the "ZF Schubvorgelege 5+1" used in the it:Breda 61 mentioned by Spielberger 1992, (Beute-Kraftzeuge und -Panzer der Deutschen Wehrmacht), p. 315. All we need is a surviving DB9 - oh look, there is one in Surviving Sd.Kfz 8 & 9s, top photo, which shows the handbrake and apparently a twisted gear lever. Fancy a road trip to Stavanger? MinorProphet (talk) 12:38, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Sure, I'm flyin' if you're buyin' ;-) Update away, I got it to GA a decade ago and nobody's done much with it since. Incidentally, Jentz names the transmission used in the Breda 61 as the usual 4 + 1 ZF Typ G55. I'm pretty sure that the 'Rutscher' is one of a multitude of paper projects that the Germans wasted time on and likely doesn't have enough coverage in RS to be notable. Generally I like steel to be cut on at least a prototype before I think an article can be justified.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 13:10, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

I said road trip, not a flight to Fornebu. Btw, in the old days the pilots on SAS used to leave the cabin doors open (:-O) yes, really, and we would skim the clouds at 30,000 feet, plus hot buns and coffee, and the approach up Oslo fjord is utterly stunning in the autumn. I quite agree on 'paper tanks'.

On more relevant matters, the helpful crowd at the Ref Desk have come up with 'sliding-mesh gearbox' as a an old-fashioned term for 'Schubvorgelege'. This makes good sense to me, since in general sliding-mesh predates the constant-mesh Aphon boxes, as I mentioned earlier. As an aside, Spielberger says that the all the gearboxes fitted to the Sd.Kfz. 6 (see #List above) are 'ZF Schubvorgelege', which the Aphon is demonstrably not (if sliding-mesh is correct).

Regarding the recurring main point of the 12-tonner's g/boxes: a sliding-mesh box (I would call it a crash box) on the DB s7 & 8 (for example, a ZG 55 although we certainly don't know) would seem to make sense. For the 'Allklauen' box on the DB 9, it might just possibly be something like an AK 5-25 or -33, which were at least in production during the war. But as far as I can see, all the AKs were 5- or 6-speed boxes, so we fall into difficulties with Spielberger's 4+1. And we have a picture of a 'ZF Spezial Schubvorgelege' on a surviving DB 10, which in my view looks at least a bit like the ZF G 65 VL230 fitted to the 18-tonners. So, perhaps some of the fog of war has been dispelled. >MinorProphet (talk) 16:05, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

For what it's worth Jentz uses Getriebe when talking about transmissions.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:48, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Getriebe is the standard word for gearbox, but it skates over the exact mode of operation. Do you object to {{sfn}}s? Used in conjunction with {{cite book}} in the bibliography they make any article look much more professional. Personally, I detest scrolling down all the way to the bibliography and back up again just to check a source. I would like to convert the whole article to cites and sfns if that's OK. MinorProphet (talk) 18:08, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Oi, what happened to the talk discussing the GA nomination process? Suddenly it's gone, and all record of it whatsoever seems to have disappeared. MinorProphet (talk) 19:51, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

I despise sfns, but go ahead. I deleted the GA review because it's redundant to the article history and I was getting tired of scrolling down past stuff I didn't think was useful to anyone anymore.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 23:02, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Hey, I am more than happy to keep the current style of referencing, it'll save me some work. At least a plain <ref> is easy to create. I started a new topic on my talk page if you felt like replying. I've been having an enlightening engineering lesson on the German WP Reference Desk about 'Schub(rad)vorgelege': it appears that the term describes the way the actual gears are 'thrust' axially up and down the shafts in a sliding-mesh gearbox, as opposed to the constant-mesh box where only the dog clutches move. Best wishes, MinorProphet (talk) 03:11, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

You've dived deeper into transmissions than I ever have. I really much prefer the manual 6-speed one in my old Ford Focus SVT than the automatic slushbox I have to use now.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:05, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Article update

Running notes:

• Hmm, in the 'Variants' section, Chamberlain and Doyle, p. 186, state 10 SP Anti-tank vehicles were made: Spielberger 1993, p. 85 says there were 12: and Frank, p. 29 in a pic caption says 25 altogether. What to do?
  • Add a note giving the varying quantities with the appropriate cites, although I think that Spielberger is the most reliable one between the three. Sadly, Jentz's book on panzer production, which I regard as definitive, only covers the full-tracked vehicles.
• Silently added Nuts & Bolts in Biblio section for approval as a RS.
  • Definitely RS
• 'Production and use' section:

The phrases "...and Škoda joined in the last years of the war." and " but it is not known if production continued at Škoda or when they were finally discarded." do not appear in my copy of Spielberger, p. 85. Instead, it does say (in German) that "the Czech army was still using these vehicles in the '50s." This may be down to a different edition of his book. Frank, p. 3 says that these Czech vehicles were built 'indigenously, with parts apparently coming from "relocated operations." ' Unofficial war reparations, perhaps? Mysterious.

I'm going to try and buy Spielberger in the next month or so (and maybe upgrade the rest of the half-track articles), and will try to clarify this whenever I get it.

• Further production figures here, add later?: Operation Barbarossa: the Complete Organisational and Statistical Analysis By Nigel Askey.
  • I have Askey's first book, covering his combat model, but I haven't seen the later ones and would hesitate to use them as sources because I'm pretty sure that they're not RS.
• Probably should mention that the 12-tonner was the first of all the modern halftracks, and all the others were derived from it. Definitely in one of the sources.
• Despite having spent so much time attempting to work out what gearboxes were fitted, there is still precious little to go on, and the vague German terms probably don't even merit mentioning. As discussed above at length ad nauseam, I would like to suggest that Spielberger nowhere specifically states that any of the gearboxes were pre-selector or semi-automatic, and I would like to remove that statement for the time being until it can be confirmed.
  • OK, just as long as you remember that if I confirm it when I get the book, it's going back in.
• 'Design & development' section: probably mention that the road wheels on early models had leaf springing, torsion bars only introduced on the DB 10 along with better front axle.
• Pics:
  • File:Sd.Kfz.8 DB 10 Skansen Pilica.jpg - Armoured Sd.Kfz.8 DB 10, is it mentioned in the sources?
    • I don't recall seeing anything like this off-hand, do you want me to check anything that I may have on-hand that you don't?--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:59, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes please MinorProphet (talk) 06:05, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Will do, although my preliminary thought is that it might be related to the Maultier vehicles.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 12:08, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

I hadn't realised until very recently that the light and heavy Maultiers were replacements for the 1 & 3 tonners, and the 5 & & 7 tonners respectively. The Czech volume on the Sd.Kfz 6 by Sawicki and Ledwoch is very scathing about the vehicle, saying it is 'puzzling how how it could be possible that nearly 3,000 vehicles of all variants of this actually useless 5-ton tractor were manufactured'. The German Army had simply specified too many special-purpose vehicles with overlapping tasks, and the later line-up was the two Maultiers, and the 12 and 18-tonners. MinorProphet (talk) 13:08, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Hettler p. 8 talks about the armoured vehicle, mentioning the Polish one in our image. It had 14.5mm armour plating and twin rear doors, possibly equipped with a crane. Some photos show it with Luftwaffe plates towing a modified 8.8 cm Flak: Hettler suggests (in German) that the crane might have been used for moving ammunition. The English translation (normally OK) is particularly poor at this point. MinorProphet (talk) 11:35, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

• • File:Sd.Kfz.8 Half-Track - Patriot Museum, Kubinka (38390155562).jpg
  • File:Captured German half track Libya 1941.jpg, possibly a DB 8/9? Externally identical, only the engine + g/box changed. Find source. MinorProphet (talk) 07:52, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

No, a DB10, solid front wheels, and design of hub of front drive sprocket. Getting good at this... MinorProphet (talk) 13:08, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

• Outline of production differences: (?)
  • DB s 7: DSO 8 + crash box, 5 running wheels (3 outer, 2 inner). Plain radiator w/out guards, angled bonnet, Mercedes bonnet ornament. Front axle: basic single leaf spring on central pivot. Spoked front wheels. Spare running wheel on rear body.
  • DB s 8: Same engine + box, 6 running wheels, (3 out & in). Rad. guard. Remove spare wheels
  • DB 9: HL85 engine + ZF Allklauen transmission. Merc star on front of rad guard.
  • DB 10: Solid front wheels, step up to cab. "Spezial Schubvorgelge" (Special sliding-mesh transmission)
    • Got the book today, so Spielberger gives gearboxes for each variant:
      • DB s 7: DB pre-selector 4/1 x2
      • DB s 8: same
      • DB 9: ZF Allklauen 4/1 x2
      • DB 10: ZF Spl. pre-selector 4/1 x2. So what say you?--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 01:12, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Hi, @Sturmvogel 66:, you really should have pinged me. Well done for getting the book. With little else to do, I was randomly looking at my old Contribs, and happened to come across your now-old post. I almost never use my watchlist. Well, if that's what the man wrote, that's what he wrote but I think he must have been on drugs.

I can only register my almost complete disbelief: the entirety of the most enjoyable forgoing discussion, references and photos in the agreed RS, points fairly comprehensively to a single possible conclusion for me: apart from the pre-selector 7+3 Variorex fitted to the Sd.Kfz 10 and 250, every other 4+1 x2 gearbox fitted to every other halftrack was either a basic sliding-mesh crash box (Schub), or a constant mesh box (Allklauen). In all that time I never came across a single reference or even a hint that all the boxes were anything other than completely standard. The photos in Hettler and Frank and every single other pic (yes, I know) show two completely bog-standard change-speed and hi-lo gear lever, and the the purpose of a bloody great big 2-foot stick poking out of a gearbox is to physically shift gears or dog clutches up and down a shaft. Almost all the pre-selector mechanisms I have come across necessarily use a linear fore-and-aft lever which doesn't act directly on the physical gears: and such a thing simply doesn't appear in any illustration or description of the cab, eg my copy of Frank p. 18.

Nevertheless, I feel sure we could arrive at some statement or refnote in the article text pointing out this somewhat annoying anomaly. I am very grateful that you have gone to such trouble. I would be really interested to compare info on other ½tracks in the English edition of Spielberger as against the earlier German one. Thanks for your continuing lively interest in this obscure topic. Best wishes, :>MinorProphet (talk) 10:24, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I can do that although I'll be busy over the next several days. Ping me if I get distracted and don't respond within a week or so.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:10, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. I think that this most fruitful discussion might benefit from a new section.

Italics

The use of Sd.Kfz. 8 throughout seems a little unnecessary. Actual German terms like Schachtellaufwerk should be in italics, but I suggest that Sd.Kfz. 8 and similar expressions are commonly understood terms in English, and I propose to remove the italics. MinorProphet (talk) 14:10, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

I don't think that it has anywhere near the recognition or familiarity as something like Luftwaffe or panzer.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:44, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

None of the reliable sources referenced in this article use italics, certainly not Hettler, which you ỳourself stated to be "Definitely RS". Best wishes, >MinorProphet (talk) 16:02, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Irrelevant as they're for a specialist audience. Ordinary readers generally aren't going to blink twice at non-italicized panzer or Luftwaffe, but are definitely not familiar with Sd.Kfz.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:07, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Hi, hope you're having a good time, I most certainly am, just having watched the 1927 US romantic comedy It, which is totally up to date. See List of Sd.Kfz. designations. Click on any link: very few italics in sight except in the lede as part of a general definition. I would suggest that's up to you to find a majority of articles, sources etc. which do use italics throughout. I would furthermore suggest that an "ordinary reader" wouldn't care less, but these articles are far more likely going to be read by a specialist audience, such as you and me, modellers, fanboys, those with a genuine interest in military history, armchair generals etc. who have a fair idea of the terminology involved. If you are writing for an "ordinary readership", good luck to you, they will not care, by definition, and the idea of a Good article will surely escape them. With very best wishes, MinorProphet (talk) 16:38, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

The majority of editors don't pay as much attention to the MOS as I do. That's perfectly fine unless I intend to improve an article to meet ACR or FAC standards where every jot and tittle of the MOS must be satisfied. If you feel strongly about not italicizing them, go ahead, because I don't have any expectations of working on these articles to that extent.

Off-topic: "Silent" films

Re It

I'll have to do that; I've never watched a Clara Bow movie. Perhaps she can get me past my weird quirk of not being able to handle silent movies, even when they're by Mel Brooks or Charlie Chaplin.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 19:37, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Charlie bloody Chaplin is one of the most over-rated silent actors ever. He is not funny, he is merely a clown, and usually raises little more than a faint chuckle in me. On the other hand, Buster Keaton in The General or Harold Lloyd in Safety Last! are the genuine silent stars for me, and Laurel & Hardy shorts in eg The Music Box. Sadly, the average musical accompaniment to silent films is usually appalling, which may mar your enjoyment. It is in fact all-important, and happily It has a very sympathetic modern score by Carl Davis, who also wrote the accompaniment to Abel Gance's Napoléon. I went to see it in the Tottenham Court Road Odeon in the early '80s, with a full symphonic orchestra with Davis conducting, quite extraordinarily effective.

Mel Brooks' Silent Movie is not his best work: Young Frankenstein, The Producers, Blazing Saddles, even High Anxiety are much better imo. MinorProphet (talk) 21:53, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

I agree with you about Silent Movie, although I've been unable to separate out the reason for my dislike between a weak plot, unfunny characters or the format. I've heard that the orchestrated Napoleon was tremendous, but really wasn't interested in it at the time. As for Chaplin, I've seen bits and pieces of his stuff all my life and it could have struck me as more of a tired shtick carried on for longer than justified than something funny. My dislike for silent movies may just something as simple at that the stylistic conventions of the era strike me as overacting, but I'll have to investigate further.

And it may be related to something I discovered when I started going through my father's collection of mid-century mysteries; it's hard to appreciate something when you've exposed to improvements on the formula for decades. Neither Chandler nor Hammett really grabbed me like I rather thought that they would since I like a lot of noir-type mysteries and movies.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:37, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

I can talk about this for ever. 'Noir' was invented in Germany in the 1920s, going back to The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, shot in the studios of Continental-Kunstfilm. See also Weissensee Studios. Try the three Dr. Mabuse films or their follow-up, the early sound film M by Fritz Lang. As far as I can work out, everyone wanted the "talkies" as soon as moving films were invented. A number of film production companies released (mostly short) films accompanied by a synchronised, patented, gramophone recording. See Oskar Messter, from 1905, Jules Greenbaum from 1910 et al. The Jazz Singer was the Johnny-come-lately of the talking film, as if the Americans had suddenly invented it in the first place: see especially Tri-Ergon, (mostly mea culpa). There was also a plethora of unusual niche effects instruments/devices specifically designed for cinemas which provided all sorts of sound effects. Also, audiences became experts at lip-reading. For a long time the camera was thought of as representing the view of a theatre-goer in a good seat in the stalls. So, many silent films seem (and are) incredibly static, since many of the early actors and directors had theatrical stage training and experience. Their entire experience was rooted in theatre.

The 'unchained camera technique' was a revelation, in both the US and in eg Germany. The quick film editing techniques, the whole Hollywood panoply of effects which underlie any modern film, and which we take for granted, came last. Many films made even in the 1960s seem clunky by comparison. For audiences back in the early '20s, it was completely new, and there was nothing else to go back to, no radio, no TV, no internet, no Facebook, TikTok, wotevs. Plus, "film stars" became a whole industry on their own.

There was a huge effort entirely devoted to publishing effective music for silent films; even a single live, capable, sensitive pianist can completely transform a screening into a memorable occasion. Many of the modern sound tracks attached to films from the silent era are literally risible. The effect of a even a half-decent live band accompanying a film is transforming: and in the best cinemas with a well-trained 30- or 40-piece or more orchestra with a proper score, the effect is stunning. The late, great silent films with professionally-composed scores (many of which have survived and have been be re-recorded for modern DVD release) are especially noteworthy.

It's easy to return to Fritz Lang; if you are into sub-Wagnerian fantasy, try Die Nibelungen, a two-part double feature-length epic with wholly imagined sets and a score by Gottfried Huppertz. Or The Last Laugh (1924 film) (Der letzte Mann) with Emil Jannings, shot entirely within a vast studio without a thought for the budget, and which famously has exactly one intertitle: it is deliberately understandable without dialogue. Or The Wind by Victor Sjostrom, or City Girl ..... I could go on. Oh, perhaps I will. One of my favourites is The New Babylon by Kozintsev and Trauberg with a score by Dmitri Shostakovich. You definitely need to know quite a lot about the Siege of Paris and the Paris Commune, because the film is very specifically episodic, but the whirling indistinct background with the main actors in the foreground in full focus is especially noteworthy.

PS If you like crime thrillers, I would like to especially recommend James Ellroy, for both the quality of his plots and his writing. I devoured the L.A. Quartet and the 'Underworld USA' trilogy a number of years ago. Enough. MinorProphet (talk) 17:35, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

More on g/boxes

• Hettler, p. 29 shows a DB10 or Skoda (S10), with a good pic of the exposed transmission. It's like the ones that Jentz describes on the Sd.Kfz 6, with main speed change box, hi/lo splitter, main drive differential and winch PTO all in the same housing.
• On the other hand, the Sturmpanzer.com parts list for the Mittlerer Zugkraftwagen 5t Sd.Kfz. 6, for Feb. 1940 (plans on Tafel 24 towards the end) show a speed change box with ratio lever and winch PTO, connected rearwards to the separate main drive axle.
• Ahaha, I went to the German ref desk] where I learned that a constant-mesh box is a 'klauengeschaltetes Getriebe' where Klauen are dog clutches. Thus I imagine the 'ZF Allklauen' gearbox uses the same principle. So, as I suggested, if the Allklauen (perhaps 5+1) is anything like the Variorex SRG in the 1-tonner and 250, then I imagine that it could easily be the pre-selector which Spielberger mentions. So I just stuck "Variorex" "Allklauen" into the evil search engine, and came up with a page on Panzer 4s. In the Ausf. A: "The ZF Allklauen SFG 75 transmission had five forward gears and one reverse."[13] Thus a pattern begins to emerge:
  • Variorex VG 102 128H, 7+3 (Sd.Kfz. 10) de:Verteilergetriebe ("Transfer cases are gearboxes that divide the input torque over several outputs. They are often used as differential gears in vehicles in order to compensate for different speeds of the driven wheels or axles." Also ZF Verteilergetriebe VG - 275-3
  • Variorex SRG 328 145, 10 speed (7+3?) Panzer III Ausf. E-G (Schaltreglergetriebe, 'shift regulator [or controller] gearbox')
  • Aphon SSG 75, 7+1 (Panzer III Ausf. H & earlier PzKw IV) (Schaltsynchronisiertegetriebe = 'shift synchronised gearbox')
  • Allklauen SFG 75, 5+1 (Panzer IV Ausf A) (Spielberger 1993b Panzer IV & its variants, p.16) NB All web hits for "Allklauen SFG" reference only this model. NB Previous orderdering from 6 February revised by MinorProphet (talk) 00:22, 12 February 2021 (UTC) ®

Other vehicles (off-topic)

Moved to separate section, hopefully to un-clutter main thrust of Talk by :>MinorProphet (talk) 15:09, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

There is a clear pic of the pre-selector lever in a Tiger I here (Maybach Olvar 40 12 16):[14]. Here's a shot of a restored Panther box (ZF AK 7-200 synchromesh):[15] from Net-Maquettes Panther Restauration – Walk Around

Photos of the internals of the SSG 76 synchro 6+1 fitted to Panzer IV Ausf. B through at least H (Spielberger 1993b, Panzer IV & Variants, pp. 32 & 66) And some fantastic pix of a real ZF SSG77 from a Panzer III restoration.[16]

Also, as a result of the bomb damage in Friedrichshafen, in April 1944 Hitler ordered that tank all tank production, decentralisation and security for contractors, sub-contractors and suppliers, should be afforded the same level of priority as fighter plane production. (Spielberger 1993b, Panzer IV & Variants, p. 72) MinorProphet (talk) 10:56, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Latest thoughts

I have come across a number of pertinent sources from the Waffen-Arsenal series, including Spezial 39 & 40, (and 129 & 132), which tend to contradict Spielberger. Again the only semi-automatic g/box mentioned is the Sd.Kfz 10, which gets the full treatment: all the others are dismissed as v. ordinary. Hope to update with full citations soon. MinorProphet (talk) 11:55, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Do any of them specifically state the type of gearbox in the DB 10? That's what we need to overturn Spielberger.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 12:05, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

For convenience, here's what you posted earlier from your copy of Spielberger:

• DB s 7: DB pre-selector 4/1 x2
• DB s 8: same
• DB 9: ZF Allklauen 4/1 x2 [a constant-mesh, non-synchro box, see above]
• DB 10: ZF Spl. pre-selector 4/1 x2.

Well... Going through the lot again, for all the halftracks:

• Walter E. Seifert (2005a). Die Zugkraftwagen der deutschen Wehrmacht 1-5t (Sd.Kfz. 10, Sd.Kfz. 11 and Sd.Kfz. 6). Wölfersheim: Podzun-Pallas Verlag 3790908045 (Waffen-Arsenal Spezial 39)
  • p. 21 Seifert gives a lengthy description of the 7+3 Variorex SRG[sic] 108 128H in the 1-tonner: "halbautomatisches Schaltreglergetriebe [ie SRG] mit Gangvorwahl und selbsttätiger Gangschaltung durch unterdruck beim Durchtreten der Kupplung" - semi-automatic regulator [or controller] gearbox/transmission with gear pre-selector and automatic gearchange through vacuum by stepping on the clutch [pedal]. Even gives all the forward gear ratios, from 8.2:1 in 1st to 1:1 in 7th. NB All the other descriptions I've seen call it a VG 018. My feeling is that if the g/box in the Sd.Kfz 8 was anything like this, it would have been singled out for this level of description, being technically much more interesting. But it isn't.
  • p. 32, 3-tonner Sd.Kfz. 11 data: "4 Gang und Vorgelege (8 Vorwärts- 2 Rückwärtsgänge)", plus all the ratios in hi and lo ranges, from 8.63:1 in lo 1st to 0.63:1 in hi 4th
  • p. 42, the same g/box description for the 5-tonner Sd.Kfz. 6: "4 Gang und Vorgelege (8 Vorwärts- 2 Rückwärtsgänge)"

• Walter E. Seifert (2005b). Die Zugkraftwagen der deutschen Wehrmacht 8-12t. Wölfersheim: Podzun-Pallas Verlag 3790908077X (Waffen-Arsenal Spezial 40)
  • p. 17- The same basic description is given for the 4 versions of the 8-tonner, KM m8 - m11: "4 Gang und Vorgelege (8 Vorwärts- 2 Rückwärtsgänge)"
  • p. 28 - Technical data for all 12-tonner versions S7 - S10, gearbox for all models: "4 Gang und Vorgelege (8 Vorwärts- 2 Rückwärtsgänge)", 4-speed and reduction, (8 forwards and 2 reverse gears). No difference from any other g/box described by Seifert except for the 1-tonner.
  • p. 30 - view of 12-tonner cab, including gearshift lever, hi/lo lever, PTO and handbrake.
  • p. 31 - Good external view of the gearbox by itself: "Ansicht des Vierganggetriebes mit Vorgelege. Übersetzung des Vorgeleges: Straße: 1,00, Gelände, 1.771" - four-speed gearbox with reduction gear. Ratio of reduction gear: road, 1.0, cross-country, 1.771. The gear and ratio shift levers are clearly shown.

• Waffen Arsenal 134, Reinhardt Frank (1992) Die mittleren Zugkraftwagen der Wehrmacht 1934-1945
  • pp. 3-4 - no info at all on the g/box of the Sd.Kfz 6
  • p. 23 the Sd.Kfz 7 has a "ZF Schubvorgelege, 4/1 x 2".

• My copy of Frank, "German Heavy Half-tracked Prime Movers 1934-1945" has absolutely no info on the gearboxes at all.

• Nuts & Bolts No. 016 Hettler, Schwerer Zugkraftwagen 12 to and Variants (Sd.Kfz.8), p. 7, just has "ZF 4+1".

• Nuts and Bolts No. 12, Hettler (1999) Schwerer Zugkraftwagen Sd.Kfz. 9 18t and Variants FAMO
  • Is very skimpy on the tech details, nothing about the gearbox, but has a good close-up shot of the 18-tonner's dashboard, with a plate showing the gate layout of the hi-lo and 4-speed box.

I find it really quite mystifying/annoying that absolutely none of the sources you or I have been able to find, reliable or otherwise, have any info on the Sd.Kfz 8 gearbox model number. Info taken from above discussions:

• Sd.Kfz. 10 - Maybach Variorex VG 102 128H
• 11 - Hanomag Schub-021-32785- U 50
• 6 - ZF Aphon G45 V
• 7 - ZF ZG55
• 8 - "4+1 x2" (most sources): "ZF Spezial Schubvorgelege" (Spielberger 1993 [in German], pp. 163-4): and "ZF Spl. pre-selector 4/1 x2" (Spielberger English version)
• 9 - ZF G65 VL230

Still can't work out what "Spezial" might mean - perhaps it just indicates a unit construction, as opposed to separate gearbox and hi/lo. MinorProphet (talk) 10:56, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Here's the inside of the gearbox[17] from the armoured Sd.Kfz 8 recovered from a river in Poland in 2015.[18] Looks like a pretty basic constant-mesh gearbox to me. Pity we can't see the top half with (presumably) the forks attached to the bottom of the gear lever. I think the hi-lo gears are nearest the camera. MinorProphet (talk) 11:28, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Another pertinent point, I feel, is that all the '4+1 x2' boxes have a separately controlled hi/lo reduction gearbox (whether separate from the speed-shift box, or of unit construction). Conversely, all the pre-selector transmissions (Variorex on Sd.Kfz 10; and also on Panzer III Ausf. E, F, G; (Source: Panzer Tracts 3-02, Jentz and Doyle (2007). Panzer III - Ausf. E, F, G. H, p. 3-2-11) and certain Stugs; and Tiger I (and II etc.) with Maybach Olvar) have a single selector lever acting on a completely different design of transmission which incorporates some very low ratios. In at least one of the sources, I have almost certainly come across instructions re driving on the road with such a transmission: namely, the driver should start off in say 3rd or even 4th gear, since the bottom gears in all the pre-selectors are equivalent to low ratio in a standard box.

In other words, "4+1 x2" is by definition incompatible with the term "pre-selector". QED. :>MinorProphet (talk) 23:04, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Logic fails WP:V. Do you still need me to provide the gearboxes of the other half-track variants from Spielberger?--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:37, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes please, I would be most grateful. MinorProphet (talk) 19:14, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

• Sd.Kfz. 10
  • D6 Demag-Adler 6/1
  • D7 HK 601 Maybach Variorex 7/3 or 8/3
• Sd.Kfz. 11
  • HL kl 5 Hansa-Lloyd-Goliath 4/1 x2
  • HL kl 6 Hanomag U 50 4/1 x2
• Sd.Kfz. 6
  • BN I 5 ZF pre-selector 4/1 x 2
  • BN I 7 ditto
  • BN I 8 ditto
  • BN 9 ditto
• Sd.Kfz. 7
  • KM m 9 ZF Aphon G 55 4/1 x2
  • KM m 10 ditto
  • KM m 11 ZF pre-selector 4/1 x2
  • Breda 61 ZF pre-selector 5/1 x2
• Sd.Kfz. 8 (Added by MinorProphet (talk) 15:09, 20 April 2021 (UTC))
  • DB s 7: DB pre-selector 4/1 x2
  • DB s 8: same
  • DB 9: ZF Allklauen 4/1 x2 [a constant-mesh, non-synchro box, see above]
  • DB 10: ZF Spl. pre-selector 4/1 x2.
• SD.Kfz. 9
  • FM gr 1 ZF Aphon 4/1 x2
  • F2 ZF G 65 VL 230 4/1 x2
  • F3 ditto--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 19:41, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Wow, thanks so much for this, respect. Thank you again for your time, trouble and expense in acquiring this book. Although I have lots of time for Spielberger, especially since he lost all his original records in a fire, IMHO this list appears to border the realms of fantasy. It is particularly weird that the only genuine pre-selector gearbox, the Maybach Variorex VG 102 128 ["7+3"] ([or "8+3" NB which it wasn't), fitted to the Sd.Kfz 10 & Sd.Kfz 250 isn't classified as a pre-selector, whereas numerous other transmissions (namely, the Sd.Kfz 6, 7 and 8 in your kindly transcribed list) are, contrary to every other source I have come across, before or after.

Thus I have to repeat my previous opinion—which I have consistently stated throughout this most enjoyable exchange of views—that the only pre-selector gearbox fitted to any half-track under discussion was the Maybach Variorex VG 102 128, fitted to the Sd.Kfz 10/250, (and also to the Panzer II Ausf. D and E (Source: Spielberger 1997, Die Panzer-Kampwagen I und II und ihre Abarten, p. 102 and Appendix [p. 151]), and that all other transmissions were, in one form or another (ie Schub- or Synchro-), "4+1 x2". Hope you are well and enjoying the sunshine, unless you are a football fan :> MinorProphet (talk) 15:09, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Discussion continued here.
MinorProphet (talk) 02:12, 8 October 2024 (UTC)