Talk:Scotch-Irish Americans

Use of the term "Scotch" is wrong

Please note that the people of Scotland are offended by the incorrect use of the word Scotch. They are either "Scottish", "Scot" or "Scots". In Scotland the use of the word "Scotch" to describe the people will be quickly be rebuked "Scotch is a form of Whiskey not a people". In respect to Scots everywhere can this be corrected or qualified... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_people — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.75.30.61 (talk) 17:59, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

In respect to Americans who call themselves Scotch-Irish Americans: No. - BilCat (talk) 22:38, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, ikr? like its Scots-Irish not Scotch-Irish. 152.117.98.89 (talk) 16:04, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

I have a brother-in-law who is of Scottish descent. My sister corrected me when I used "Scotch" to describe him, saying "Scotch is a drink or a kind of tape. The correct term is Scots." I've used Scots ever since. Given that Scots is not incorrect and doesn't offend anybody, whereas Scotch does, it makes sense to me to root out all the mentions of Scotch when referring to Scottish people. Sp8Works (talk) 14:04, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I heartily disagree@ Bilcat. Scotch is the name for (many but not all) Scottish food and/or drink. Scots is the name of the people. i.e I am Scottish. It is wildly incorrect to call someone 'Scotch'. Dava4444 (talk) 02:58, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

@Dava4444: No one is advocating calling people currently from Scotland "Scotch". However, the whole term "Scotch-Irish American" is the term for these people in the United States, and what they call themselves, ie. I am Scotch-Irish American. - BilCat (talk) 04:02, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Nah. That's a Victorian archaism. Scots-Irish is now the more common spelling, since the 1990s (i.e. since the public Internet put Americans in immediate touch with real Scots). This article should move.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:00, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: Claims that "Scots-Irish American" (not simply Scots-Irish") is more common have been made here before, but couldn't be substantiated. Can you verify that "Scots-Irish American" is now more commonly used by those people to refer to themselves? BilCat (talk) 20:23, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed your list of sources below, as I was writing the previous post when you added it. However, a lot of those sources seem to be about Scottish and Gaelic immigrants in general, not just "Scotch-Irish Americans". To my knowledge, Wikipedia give great deference to what people actually call themselves, not just how academics refer to them. Many Scotch-Irish Americans are very vocal about retaining that term for themselves as a matter of personal pride, regardless of what academics or "real Scots" believe they should be called. We aren't "Scots", but "Scotch-Irish Americans". BilCat (talk) 20:41, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

As an example, we wouldn't consider calling African Americans, which is their (current) preferred term, something different simply because "real Africans" objected to it for some reason, if African Americans stated they still preferred thst term. Why should we do the same thing here? BilCat (talk) 20:50, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

False analogy, because there's not a large block of people who consider "African" to be an offensive term. A more apt analogy might be Coloureds of South Africa, a mixed-ethnicity group who prefer that term despite "colo[u]red" being considered offensive in the US. But even this is a poor analogy, for several reasons, including that the US is not the origin area, and WP uses "Coloureds" for that specific ethnic group because it is the preferred term for them in independent reliable sources (if that usage shifted, so would our article title). And your apparent premise that Americans of Scottish descent still today prefer to call themselves "Scotch-Irish American" or "Scotch Americans" rather than "Scots-Irish Americans" or "Scots Americans" (or "Scottish Americans") is dubious at best, though it's a difficult proposition to test objectively. The fact that "Scotch" in reference to people is offensive to Scots, and somewhere between silly and offensive to many in the Scottish diaspora, including in North America, should be sufficient. At bare minimum it has become a hotly disputed usage, and that is reason enough for an encyclopedia to avoid it in favor of the undisputed spelling.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:59, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

It is true that many of my compatriots have a misapprehension that the term Scotch is somehow "wrong", or even an insult, simply because it has fallen out of fashion, in regard to certain things only, in Scotland itself. It's not that it's somehow right for Scotch broth and Scotch whisky but wrong for people, it's just that it has been retained for the former, as it has for the Scotch-Irish in the wider world. The same people would probably be as inconsistently irate if you referred to a Scottish pie. Indeed, that the term is regarded as out of favour in one part of the world should have no bearing on its commonplace application elsewhere, and by that I mean, in my experience, Australia and Ireland as well as just the States. 21:13, 31 August 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mutt Lunker (talk • contribs)

Thanks Mutt! I'm glad to know there are still dissenters in Scotland. BilCat (talk) 21:29, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: As far as I can tell, there's never been a formal move discussion for this article. Perhaps it's time. BilCat (talk) 21:31, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Just "in Scotland itself" is a false assumption. E.g., I am in nearly every Scottish-American (and many Scottish-[other]) diaspora groups on Facebook, and this debate is frequent on them, among populations of users with almost no native Scots. It comes up enough that several of the admins of such groups have banned the topic from their groups because it is so heated and divisive. "It's not that it's somehow right for Scotch broth and Scotch whisky but wrong for people"; actually, that's precisely what it is. Native Scots who don't like being called "Scotch" would disagree with you if wanted to rebrand Scotch whisky as "Scottish whisky" or "Scots whisky"; it's a major market and a big slice of the Scottish economy. If I'm understanding your point about "Scotch pie" correctly, there might be some people who would object to "Scottish pie", but use of "Scottish" in reference to the inanimate isn't offensive, while to many people use of "Scotch" for the inanimate is, so it's another false analogy. And "simply because it has fallen out of fashion" is plenty of reason to move an article even if there were not a broad and increasing sense that the usage is offensive. The presence of a rare within-Scotland voice who doesn't object to "Scotch" in reference to people doesn't magically dispell all those who do, in or out of the country.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:36, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion is about the particular term Scotch-Irish American, not the adjective Scotch in general. The baseless offence taken by some to the adjective, in other, and only some, contexts, in a country other than that where the full term under discussion is primarily employed should hold no sway, let alone greater sway. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:38, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Dismissing the concerns of entire classes of people as "baseless" just proves you're on a polemical mission with regard to this matter. And your proposition that only native-born people of Scotland find "Scotch" used in regard to them to be offensive is not evidenced by any sources. Meanwhile I've provided (below) piles of evidence that usage is shifting away from "Scotch-Irish American[s]" toward "Scots-Irish American[s]" even among American publishers and – this is especially important – by writers and publishers in the areas of thickest concentration of Scots-Irish immigrants (the East Coast and eastern South).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:58, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

You have provided no evidence of the usage of the term being remotely actively intended to offend. What the ill-informed beholder thinks is another matter. When used, the term is largely in contexts where it is a normal, commonplace term, with no baggage, often as self-identification, neutrally or actively with pride. Is to deny that not dismissive? Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:14, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

"Actively intended to offend" has nothing to do whether something is taken as offensive. When something is taken as offensive by a large group of people, WP needs to consider whether the project has anything to gain by using it as our article title. Notice, e.g., that Eskimos, Australian aborigines, and Gypsies are all redirects not article titles, despite the fact that many people mean no offense by them, and some people to whom the terms apply even prefer them.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:41, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Your first sentence just repeats, in other words, exactly what I said above. Please stop assuming what the rest of us really mean. Are you seriously suggesting this is a case of a racial slur and actively comparable to the examples above? If people take offence through ignorance, it is surely for a work of reference to disabuse them. Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:57, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

It's not an undisputed spelling, or this talk page wouldn't be full of disputes about it. Academic sources aren't the only sources permitted, and there are plenty of other sources that show "Scotch-Irish American" is still in common usage among Scotch-Irish Americans for themselves. As to "The fact that 'Scotch' in reference to people is offensive to Scots" is totally irrelevant to me, and to many other Americans. What gives them the right to determine what we call ourselves!? Our ancestors left Scotland for many reasons, partly so they could have freedoms they didn't have in Scotland or Ulster, including from this sort of nonsense. BilCat (talk) 21:22, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

"It's not an undisputed spelling, or this talk page wouldn't be full of disputes about it." That's a good reason to rename the page, since "Scotsh-Irish" doesn't appear to be offensive to anyone, even if it's not the personal preference of some subset of editors/readers. This is not a good subject for false-balance "bothsidesism". That you're just going to dismiss any disagreement with you as "nonsense" would seem to indicate that your useful participation in the discussion has ended, or at least that trying to continue it with you in particular will be a waste of time and energy.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:36, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

(Sorry for the edit conflicts) I have only dismissed the opinions of certain unnamed Scots, who object to the usage of "Scotch-Irish American", as nonsense. I certainly didn't mean to imply your opinions as, apparently, an American of Scottish descent, were nonsense, that wasn't the crux of your argument. I do have to wonder why you are so concerned about what people from another country want you to call yourself, but so dismissive of what a majority of Scotch-Irish Americans want to call ourselves. Please remember, you led this discussion with "put Americans in immediate touch with real Scots", as if that's all that matters in this discussion. I just disagree that it should matter at all to me or any other American. But your best move at this start a formal RM discussion, and we'll see how that goes. BilCat (talk) 21:54, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

For matters like this, where there's a judgment call involved, I find it better to open a general discussion and gather evidence and viewpoints, before going to RM (or sometimes just making RM unnecessary, e.g. if a rename idea is a bad one).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:55, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Agree. We aren't talking aboyt the people of Scotland in this article. We are talking about the Scotch-Irish, which is an American ethnic group. Many people who consider themselves Scotch-Irish (from personal experience), might not have much ancestry that even goes back to Ulster. But because so many people in the area they're from did come from Ulster, it's sort of become a general description for "who they are". It's a lot more polite than other names they're called. In my own family from North Carolina I have Carpenter cousins, who consider themselves Scotch-Irish. But Carpenter was a name they switched to in the 1800s. The family name was originally Zimmerman, which is hardly a Scottish name. We aren't talking about Scots in this article. The Scotch-Irish are a whole different beast. Eastcote (talk) 22:01, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Their ultimate genetic origins, and the propensity of Americans in the diaspora to identify more strongly with one ancentral line than another, have thing to do with whether to spell it "Scots" or "Scotch".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:55, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

My point was that whether modern Scots object to the term or not has nothing to do with the spelling used in this article. They are different peoples, and the one has nothing to do with the other, other than some common history half a millenium ago. So raising what modern Scots think is not a relevant argument. Eastcote (talk) 14:31, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

That point might sway some opinions (I can think of arguments against it, but not without repeating much of what I've already written above). It's not a valid argument when it comes to reliable source materials at all, though. On any given matter, WP cares what all of the RS say, regardless where they were published and regardless of the claimed ethno-national origins of the author or publisher. But you're missing another point: it's not just Scots in Scotland who object to "Scotch"; the vast majority of debate about the term is among Scots Americans and Scots-Irish Americans, who numerically dominate pretty much every venue in which these discussion take place, by an order of magnitude. See the evidence below, all American publications, including specific sourcing that "Scotch-" is outmoded. And it's just from an hour of looking around. Detailed research into this (with more sources and by reading the already mentioned ones in detail) would almost certain produce an overwhelming case to rename this article. But I don't have that kind of time to spend on it.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:24, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

I guess I have to chime in here. I've heard the term mainly as "Scotch-Irish" here in the USA. It's the traditional way it's spoken. "Scotch-Irish" is the usual term here for the people this article is about, while the usual American term for people from Scotland is "Scots". I've only very rarely heard anyone refer to the people of Scotland as "Scotch". (Although my mother-in-law from Belfast routinely used the term "Scotch" as an adjective for anything related to Scotland). We are talking about two different sets of people: Scots and Scotch-Irish. We call them different things. Eastcote (talk) 21:54, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

If "we call them different things" were broadly true, the search results below simply could not be possible. What the reality is, is that some individuals (mostly older, and perhaps on a regional-dialect basis as well) still like to use "Scotch-Irish" despite it more generally moving rapidly toward obsolescence.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:55, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Well, I suppose that if it's only "older" people, or "regional" people who use the term "Scotch", then we older and regional people need to bow to the people who are moving us more rapidly toward obsolescence. What you seem to be saying is "The old way is rapidly aging. Get out of the new way if you can't lend a hand". All those older and regional people need to get with the mainstream, and follow those scholars who write all those books. It's a brave new world, and we all need to abandon tradition and conform to the scholarly consensus. "Scotch-Irish" is what these people have been called for some 300 years. That doesn't need to be changed based on scholarship of the last 30 years. Eastcote (talk) 22:21, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with me or you personally or your "values" against someone else's. This melodramatic hand-wringing of yours is missing something rather obvious and crucial: "conform to the scholarly consensus" is pretty much exactly and all that Wikipedia does, by design. I've provided quite a pile of evidence that this consensus has shifted or is shifing, and you've provided nothing in response but emotion. That it's in response to concerns from others (not just native-born Scots) that the term is increasingly seen as offensive starkly reminds me of other "I refuse to change my ways and will impede anyone trying to change minds" attitudes in response to other language shifts about other ethnic groups from the 1960s onward. And that's all I'll say on that.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:53, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

An hour or so of source searching: American Society of Scots-Irish [1], FamilyTree (New Hampshire) [2], quote: 'For those not using the term Ulster Scots today, Scots-Irish has generally supplanted the use of “Scotch-Irish” in America.', University of Connecticut [3], quote: '“Scots-Irish” is the American term for descendants of settler-colonial Presbyterians who left Ireland from the 18th century onwards', Mountain Xpress (NC) [4], uses both spellings, but quote: 'I usually call them the “Scotch-Irish,” but the fashionable term these days is “Scots-Irish.”', The Westward Sagas (Texas) [5], quote: 'In [early books in the series], there are numerous references to the Scotch-Irish. At book signings and speaking events, I am often asked the meaning of the word Scotch (pertaining to people). After being asked how one’s ancestors can be from a place called Scotch, which is the native whiskey of Scotland, I started calling my ancestors Scots-Irish.', AmeriCeltic (California) [6], Immigration and Ethnic History Society (Minnesota) [7], Historic Rural Hill Cultural Center (N. Carolina) [8], Citizen Time (NC) [9], Genealogical Publishing Company (Maryland) [10], Broadway Books (NY) [11], Scottish Tartans Museum and Heritage Center (NC) this seems to be their own book, since I can't find it anywhere else, Ancestry.com (Utah) [12], The Register-Herald (Ohio) [13], SCIWAY.net (S. Carolina portal) [14], Village of Foxburg (Pennsylvania) [15], CelticClothing.com (PA) [16], FamilySearch (UT) [17], Carolina.com (SC) [18], Fairfax County (Virginia) [19], City Univerity of New York – Brooklyn [20], Indiana University – Purdue University Indianapolis [21] (they have "Scots-Irish" but not "Scotch-Irish" as a keyword, even), The Atlantic (Washington DC) [22], Princeton University Press (NJ) [23], New England Historical Society (Massachusetts) [24], Temple University Press (PA) [25], AncestralFindings.com (Florida) [26], ElectricScotland.com (Arizona and Ontario) [27], US National Park Service (DC) [28], Mid-Continent Public Library (Missouri) [29], The Encyclopedia of Greater Philadelphia (PA) [30] (lists both spellings, prefers "Scots-Irish"), Blue Ridge National Heritage Area (NC) [31], Lees McRae College (NC) [32], FindMyPast.com (US UK Ireland; not sure where the home office is) [33], KISS 95.1 FM radio (NC) [34], West Virgina Blue Book [35] (dating back to the 1920s, and showing Scots-Irish American is not a neologism), Washington Monthly (DC) [36], Irish America (NY) [37], Polk County (FL) [38], Kentucky Genealogy Society [39], Appalachia State University (NC) [40] (uses both spellings, prefers "Scots-Irish"), University of Tennessee Press [41], Chattanooga Times Free Press (TN) [42], NameCensus.com (exact location unknown, but it's all US Census data) [43], Visit Staunton portal (VA) [44], WikiTree (NY) [45], Pittsburgh Quarterly (PA) [46]. This is just a smattering from the first page of search results.

What's really remarkable about all of that is the high frequency of the material being from the US East Coast and eastern South, where Scots-Irish settlement was concentrated. I.e. no case can be made that "Scots-Irish" is some kind of exonomyic imposition from outside.

There are similar results for "Scots-Irish Canadian", though I'm not going to list them all here. In searching for the American stuff, I did run across this one, though, so may as well paste it in: U. of Guelph (Ontario) [47].

We also have to consider what recent sources use, regardless where they are published. While I did not bother searching up a list of such material, I ran across a few in the course of looking for specifically American publications, and I did not run across any modern non-US publications using "Scotch-Irish" (though again I was not exhaustively looking for that in particular). Emmigration.info (entirely US focused, but may actually be British-owned) [48], Emerald Group Publishing ("a global publisher", but seem to be UK headquartered, though publish a lot of highly specific American local-history books) [49][50][51], Causeway Press (now seems to be owned by Pearson, a UK company) [52]

Some individual writers are inconsistent (perhaps due to publisher preferences): topical author Larry J. Hoefling put out Scots and Scotch Irish: Frontier Life in North Carolina, Virginia, and Kentucky from Indiana Press, but Chasing the Frontier: Scots-Irish in Early America through iUniverse, which might be a self-publishing outfit; not a publisher I've heard of).

See also random but assertive American usage: "I'm Scots-Irish American; there's a difference" [53].

You can of course do a Google search on "Scotch-Irish American" and find lots of usage of that term; the fact that the term is still in some use is not disputed by anyone. What stands out to me, though, is the large proportion of books using that term in their titles that date from the 1980s and earlier [54][55][56][57][58] and many others (back to at least the Edwardian era). There are some exceptions, like this one from 1998 using "Scotch-Irish" [59], and another from 1993 [60], and one from 2000 [61] – but these are pushing the definition of "recent".

Anyway, more could be done, like narrow searches in Google News, Google Books, Google Scholar, and other databases.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:55, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

PS, and this is significant: One of the main style guides that WP's own MoS is based on, Garner's Modern English Usage (4th ed., p. 811), addresses these terms directly, and is against use of Scotch in relation to the animate. "Some things, usually those associated with people, have names that use Scots instead of Scottish, e.g., Scots law, Scots Guards, Scots goose, Scots pine. And there are many things with fixed names, such as Scottish Rite and Scottish Rifles. ... Scotch ... is now often considered offensive. Limit its use to set phrases such as Scotch broth and Scotch egg. But even some of those names are undergoing change. For instance *Scotch terriers are now called Scottish terriers or even Scots terriers. ... As a noun, Scotch refers only to whisky distilled in Scotland." If Scotch isn't even good enough for dogs now, why would we still keep applying it to people?  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:24, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

"If Scotch isn't even good enough for dogs now, why would we still keep applying it to people?" makes no more sense than "If Scotch is still good enough for whisky, why wouldn't we still keep applying it to people?" I'd find Scotch unusual applied to people in Scotland but I'm well-enough informed about its wider and historical usage to not be under the misapprehension it's an insult. We shouldn't be campaigning to expunge a widely-used term based on the prejudice of the ill-informed, any more than we should accept a Scotch bonnet pepper being called a habanero because there are those unaware of the distinction, Mr Garner apparently included. What is a "Scots goose"? He advocates that one "Limit its use to set phrases such as “Scotch broth” and “Scotch egg.” "Scotch-Irish" is abundantly documented as such a set phrase. Mutt Lunker (talk) 20:31, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

The "set phrase" clause is only in relation to examples like broth and egg. You have to actually parse the material sensibly. It is literally not possible for Garner to have said "Scotch ... is now often considered offensive. ... As a noun, Scotch refers only to whisky distilled in Scotland" and simultaneously to have meant to include people when he waid "set phrases" in early material about inanimate things like broth and eggs. I feel fairly certain that your reading skill are good enough to have figured this out, without any help, so I'm left to wonder why you'd try to make such a bogus argument that anyone can see through. Simiarly, I don't find it very plausible that you can't understand the difference between dogs as geese as animate entities and Scotch whisky as an inanimate substance. I disbelieve that you can't actually understand the distinction being drawn, and believe that you are arguing as if you can't because you hope it will confuse later readers. It's a hand-waving tactic to sow FUD about the source.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:43, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Mr. McCandlish, you seem to be the only one here making the argument that "Scotch" needs to be changed,based on your intense belief that it is somehow offensive and out-of-date. Other people happen to disagree with you. Please stop insulting people with terms like "bogus argument" and insinuating things about people's "reading skills" or their ability to undestand distinctions. Please be civil. Eastcote (talk) 22:10, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

That's a form of red-herring fallacy, and does not substantively address any point I have raised. This is a poorly-watchlisted page, and entire projects like WikiProject Scotland have gone defunct except for some activity about sports and politics. The fact that I happen to be the only person right this very moment who has brought the matter up is completely immaterial, especially given the evidence on the talk page of this and related articles that it's been discussed multiple times in the past without resolution. Point out that fallacious arguments are bogus is not "uncivil", it's factual. If I say that I choose not to believe someone is having reading difficulties but that they're engaging instead in argumentation gamesmanship, I'm also not being uncivil. So, you can climb down off your high horse now.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:02, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Phewee, you are a delight Mr McC. "Often", thus also: "often not". Scotch as whisky is a noun. In (the set phrase) Scotch-Irish, an adjective. I respect dogs and geese but also respect whisky which, in my view, is due at least as much, inanimate as it may be. "It's a major market and a big slice of the Scottish economy", I hear. My question about the “Scots goose” is genuine: what, the, is it? Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:49, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

"The Scots-Irish" or "the Scotch-Irish" are noun phrases, not adjectives. (Same with "Scotch" by itself when you say something like "The Scotch invaded north England in 1640.") Making them adjectival by turning them into modifiers of "Americans" would not change the spelling we select, any more than you'd change from "traveller" to "traveler incentives" because one was a noun and one an adjective modifying a noun, or go from "She had a caesarian" to "She had a cesarian section". I have no idea what Scots geese are; possibly a breed of goose, or possibly it was just an example of using "Scots" as an adjective in front of any random noun, like "Scots roadways" or "Scots pastures" or "Scots television shows". Note how dated the usage is if you swap in "Scotch" in any of them. "Scotch whisky" is sticking, beacause it's a protected designation of origin product category, subject to international agreements; it'd be a hassle to change, even if everyday usage supported making a change, which it doesn't. People most often just call it "Scotch", so much so that "Scotch" as an adjective seems to refer to the whisky. If you say "I'm going to a Scotch tasting event" no one thinks you're headed to a cannibal party. Heh.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:02, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

"Scotch"-Irish is the traditional American term for these people. There's nothing wrong with sticking to tradition, and not changing with recent trend. I've seen recent arguments that the names of other American ethnic groups should be changed, too, notably the Pennsylvania Dutch and the Cajuns, to make the naming more "accurate". Much has been said about the Pennsylvania Dutch being actually Pennsylvania "Germans". The argument goes that use of the word "Dutch" is confusing and historically inaccurate, as the people did not originate in the low countrues. This is true, but "Pennsylvania German" is not what these people have been historically called and changing from "Dutch" is altering history rather than correcting it. The same with the Cajun argument. I've heard some say that Cajuns should be more accurately called Acadians, because "Cajun" is just a corruption of that term, and because "Cajun was used by Anglos to refer to all persons of French descent and low economic standing". But "Cajun" is the traditional term, and changing it to "Acadian" would be changing history rather than correcting it. So what if the "trend" in the past 30 years has been towards "Scots" rather than "Scotch". Stick to tradition and don't bow to the recent whims of scholarly thought. What do scholars know, anyway? Scholars seem to want to change a lot of history, lately. Eastcote (talk) 14:54, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Repetitively claiming it's "the traditional" (emphasis added) spelling when I've presented a large pile of evidence that "Scots-" is increasinly preferred in the very area most concentrated with Scots-Irish Americans (i.e. the source of what you claim "the" tradition is), does not make for much of an argument, and smacks of both proof by assertion and false dichotomy, as well as just hand-waving in the face of a lot of evidence instead of directly addressing any of it. The rest of what you wrote is more false analogy. "Scots" or "Scotch" are not wrong-nationality misnomers, nor dialectal abbreviations, and neither "Dutch" nor "Cajun" are terms that cause a lot of offense to large group of people, nor subject to long-term intensive debate that is causing modern writers and publishers to shift away from "Dutch" and "Cajun" (much less in Penn. and LA themselves). It's clear that you just happen to like "Scotch-", but that's not a good reason for WP to continue using it.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:24, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Also of relevance: WP:DIVIDEDUSE: Sometimes, English usage is divided. ... In this case, we cannot determine which is "most common". Use what would be the least surprising to a user finding the article. Note this does not say "least suprising to a user who feels that the article is about them". It means all our users in the aggregate. Clearly the term considered non-offensive is the least-suprising to use for our article title. See also WP:ASTONISH. And the evidence above disproves that the Scots-Irish only use "Scotch-Irish" in reference to themselves, since "Scots-Irish" is increasingly the norm in publications in areas of heavy Scots-Irish settlement. The DIVIDEDUSE guideline also says: Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. It is not our business to predict what term will be in use, but rather to observe what is and has been in use and will therefore be familiar to our readers. Thus much of this thread, providing usage evidence. We already knew that "Scotch-Irish" had extensive use, and now we also know that "Scots-Irish" has extensive use (i.e., is familiar to readers), and we further know that it is growing while use of "Scotch-Irish" is declining.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:18, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

From Empty Mansions," page 19, the nonfiction biography of a prominent American of this heritage. "Scotch-Irish, not Scots-Irish, has long been the standard name in America for this immigrant group, who were the product not of Scottish and Irish parents, but of Protestant families from Scotland and England who settled in the north of Ireland in the seventeenth century and then moved on to the United States." 24.184.21.30 (talk) 04:12, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

References

Archaic???

No RS says it's "archaic" -- here's the definition of archaic from Wiktionary https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/archaic Of or characterized by antiquity; old-fashioned, quaint, antiquated. (of words) No longer in ordinary use, though still used occasionally to give a sense of antiquity.

examples: 1) https://www.americanheritage.com/content/scotch-irish American Heritage magazine Oct 19, 2005 - Millions of Americans have Scotch-Irish ancestors; 2) Texas Almanac Nov 3, 2003 "SCOT/SCOTCH-IRISH": "100-proof Scot-Texans have begun to celebrate their ethnic heritage only in the last part of the 20th century with annual "highland games" and festivals in various parts of the state." 3) History Ireland magazine vol 7#3 1999: "Scotch-Irish or Scots-Irish. Those exploring the historical phenomenon of migration from Ireland to North America now use the term, which always retained a certain ambiguity, less frequently. The Scotch-Irish, however, are firmly lodged in the established mental map of American ethnology and the challenge to replace this terminology remains unfulfilled. " Rjensen (talk) 22:43, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

@DigbyDalton:, instead of reverting please discuss here pursuant to BRD. If you are citing the OED, please either link or precisely quote it here.

Out of curiosity, I ran this ngram which suggests that "Scotch-Irish" is the more prevalent term. This one is interesting. ...and for a slightly related but tangential bonus, this one.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 23:40, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

"It was never properly used as a noun."

"The use of "Scotch" as an adjective for anything but whiskey has been out of favor in the U.K. for 200 years"

We need citations for both of those. Much of what has been introduced recently doesn't seem to square with what I'm finding. Beginning with the last one first, this ngram is distinctly different because it is taken from the corpus of British English where the ones that I introduced before were from the combined corpus. (You may have to select it in the gray box) It looks contradictory to suggestions of disuse in the UK. It seems to reflect that "Scotch-Irish" is more prevalent there as well. So I decided to look for publications from the British Isles to make sure that we could find some samples to back that up:

• The Political History of England: From the breaking out of the Scotch troubles, to the restoration of Charles II, 1637-1660 by Friedrich von Raumer, London 1837. Text has usage such as "The complaints of the Scotch".
• The Appellate Jurisdiction of the House of Lords in Scotch Causes by Norman MacPherson, Appellate Magistrate, Edinburgh, Scotland 1861.
• Who are the Scotch? by James Bonwick, Fellow of the Anthropological Institute, London 1880.
• Anglo-Normans, later English, and ScotchBy Thomas Edward Bridgett, London 1881.
• Reports of Scotch Appeals in the House of Lords A. D. 1851 to 1873: With Tables of All the Cases Cited, Notes, and Copious Index, Parliament. House of Lords, Editor James Paterson, Published by W. Green & sons, Great Britain 1895.
• A Possible Solution to the Scotch Problem Tom Scott, published by M. Macdonald, Edinburgh 1963. The scan looks like either 1961 or 1941.
• Essays in Scotch-Irish History by E.R.R. Green, former Director of the Institute of Irish Studies, Queen's University of Belfast, 1969 and republished by the Ulster-Scot Historical Foundation in 2005.
• Searching for Scotch-Irish Roots in Scottish Records, 1600-1750 by David Dobson, St. Andrews Scotland, published in Baltimore 2007. His use of the word "neighbouring" in Chapter 1, page 1 indicates that he isn't American.

Regarding its usage as a noun, "Scotch" also commonly means Scots Gaelic, which I'm seeing in other publications during 1800s-1900s. These samples above reflect the Google Ngram results and that it has been used more than suggested by more recent additions to the article.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 18:38, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

The exact adjective "archaic" might be a bit much (maybe somewhere between "dated" and "obsolescent"). But only the last two of those sources are of any potential relevance; WP isn't written in Victorian or even mid-20th-century English. And two examples of someone using an obsolescent term doesn't indicate a trend. There are valid data points, but the sample size is very, very small. Oh, actually only the last of them is potentially relevant, since the one before it really dates back to 1969 (WP doesn't care about reprint dates; works of all ages, with decreasing reliability the older they are, are reprinted all the time. Being reprinted doesn't magically given them new and improved authority as sources, most especially not on language usage). Regarding Green anyway: it's been asserted elsewhere on this page that "Scotch" remains a dialectal Hibernicism, so an Irish writer using it's wouldn't be evidentiary of anything about American or British usage. As for Dobson, the one source we might care about in that list, he may have chosen "Scotch-" on purpose because his work is about 1600–1750, when the term was considered the proper name for such people. We can't read his mind and know whether he would apply that term to modern-day Scots-Irish Americans at all. That said, there are some other books post-2000 that use "Scotch-Irish Americans"; no one on this page has suggested otherwise. But they are quite few in number, and the usage is demonstrably decreasing in favor of "Scots-Irish Americans" [62]. The latter has been on the rise since the 1990s, and became the leading term in book results in the 2010s.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:35, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Conflict with Native Americans

Revised this section as some of the information did not reflect the sources cited. According to Kenny (2009) and other sources, the main purpose of the march on Philadelphia in February 1764 was not to demand better military protection or pardons, but to kill the Moravian Indians who had been moved there for their protection in November 1763. Kenny describes only two offensive operations undertaken by the Paxton Boys neither of which was successful. The Paxton Boys suspected the Susquehannock (Conestoga) of providing information and harbouring enemies, not weapons and ammunition. Griffin's Sword (talk) 16:17, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Additional sources

• Calder, Jenni (2010) [2005]. Scots in the USA. New York: Luath.
• Newton, Michael Steven (2014). "The Gaelic Diaspora in North America". In Stewart Leith, Murray; Sim, Duncan (eds.). The Modern Scottish Diaspora: Contemporary Debates and Perspectives. Edinburgh University Press. pp. 136–152. doi:10.3366/j.ctt1g09zmf. ISBN 9780748681402. – Entire book will probably be of relevance. This was originally an expensive academic issue, but is now available used for around US$15. Significant parts of the content can be Google-previewed here [63].
• Newton, Michael Steven, ed. (2013). Celts in the Americas. Sydney, Nova Scotia: Cape Breton University Press / Nimbus Publishing. ISBN 9781897009758. – "This volume contains a selection of the best papers from the conference, five invited chapters, and an introduction, for a total of nearly 149,000 words." Also covers Irish, Welsh, etc.
• Newton, Michael Steven (2011). "Scotland's Two Solitudes Abroad: Scottish Gaelic Immigrant Identity and Culture in North America". In Campbell, Jodi A.; Ewan, Elizabeth; Parker, Heather (eds.). The Shaping of Scottish Identities: Sex, Nation, and the Worlds Beyond. "Guelph Series in Scottish Studies". Guelph: Centre for Scottish Studies. pp. 215–233. ISBN 9780889555891.
• Newton, Michael Steven (2014). "Scottish Americans". In Riggs, Thomas (ed.). Gale Encyclopedia of Multicultural America (3rd ed.). Gale Cengage / SAGE. ISBN 9780787675509. – 4-vol. set of very expensive textbooks. Contains 152 essays, and I don't know which volume Newton's is in. Best gotten via inter-library loan, or a university campus library.
• Ray, Celeste (2001). Highland Heritage: Scottish Americans in the American South. University of North Carolina Press. ISBN 9780807849132. – Seems to focus on Highland games events in the US South – Publishers Weekly: "A combination of resource compendium, exhaustively detailed anthropological study and astute cultural criticism. Extensive research, clear prose and respect for her subjects will win this authoritative work favor among Scottish American enthusiasts and academics alike."
• Ray, Celeste, ed. (2005). Transatlantic Scots. The University of Alabama Press. ISBN 9780817314736. – Has extensive chapters by 7 or 8 authors. Includes Australia in some of Ray's material, but no dedicated chapter about it; the book is mostly about Canada and the US.
  • Ray, Celeste (2005). "Scottish immigration and ethnic organization in the United States". In Ray, Celeste (ed.). Transatlantic Scots. The University of Alabama Press. pp. 48–95. ISBN 9780817314736. – This particular chapter sounds valuable: "sketches brief immigration histories of the different Scottish ethnic groups in colonial times and considers how the ethnic divides between Scots, so important in the 18th century, were downplayed through Scottish ethnic organizations in the 19th. The chapter concludes with descriptions of the Scottish-American community and ethnic organization and heritage activities today" (among other material).
  • Ray, Celeste (2005). "Transatlantic Scots and ethnicity". In Ray, Celeste (ed.). Transatlantic Scots. The University of Alabama Press. pp. 21–47. ISBN 9780817314736.
  • Ray, Celeste (2005). "Bravehearts and Patriarchs. Masculinity on the Pedestal in Southern Scottish Heritage Celebration". In Ray, Celeste (ed.). Transatlantic Scots. The University of Alabama Press. pp. 232–262. ISBN 9780817314736.
  • Other pieces include: Ray, Celete; "Scottish Immigration and Ethnic Organization in the United States". Vance, Michael; "A Brief History of Organized Scottishness in Canada". Bennett, Margaret; "From the QuebecHebrideans to les Écossais-Québécois: Tracing the Evolution of a Scottish Cultural Identity in Canada’s Eastern Townships". Vance, Michael; "Powerful Pathos: The Triumph of Scottishness in Nova Scotia". Dembling, Jonathan; "You Play It as You Would Sing It: Cape Breton, Scottishness, and the Means of Cultural Production". Jarvie, Grant; "The North American Émigré, Highland Games, and Social Capital in International Communities". Hook, Andrew; "Troubling Times in the Scottish-American Relationship". Sheets, John W.; "Finding Colonsay's Emigrants and a 'Heritage of Place'". Basu, Paul; "Pilgrims to the Far Country: North American 'Roots-Tourists' in the Scottish Highlands and Islands". Cowan, Edward J.; "Tartan Day in America". McArthur, Colin; "Transatlantic Scots, Their Interlocutors, and the Scottish Discursive Unconscious".
• Ray, Celeste (Summer 1998). "Scottish Heritage Southern Style". Southern Cultures. 4 (2): 28–45. – Seems to focus on Highland games events in the US South.
• Ray, Celeste (2012). "Ancestral clanscapes and transatlantic tartaneers". In Varricchio, Mario (ed.). Back to Caledonia: Scottish Homecomings from the Seventeenth Century to the Present. Birlinn. pp. 168–188. ISBN 9781906566449. – This book is probably the only one on return migration of the diaspora back to Scotland (though I think there's an article at least partly about this in From Tartan to Tartanry as well), and actually covers the 17th century to 21st. Detailed review in Scottish Affairs [64].
• Sumner, Natasha; Doyle, Aidan, eds. (2020). North American Gaels: Speech, Song, and Story in the Diaspora. McGill–Queen's University Press. ISBN 9780228003793.
• Leyburn, James Graham (1989) [1962]. The Scotch-Irish: A Social History. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press. ISBN 978-0807842591. – Covers the Plantation of Ulster through American emigration and early US history.
• Chepesiuk, Ron (2005). The Scotch-Irish: From the North of Ireland to the Making of America. McFarland. ISBN 9780786422739.
• Hofstra, Warren R. (2021) [2011]. Ulster to America: The Scots-Irish Migration Experience, 1680–1830. University of Tennessee Press. ISBN 9781621902638.
• Dickson, R. J. (2010). Ulster Emigration to Colonial America, 1718–1785. Ulster Historical Foundation. ISBN 9780901905178.
• Fischer, David Hackett (1989). Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America. "America: A Cultural History" series. Oxford University Press. ISBN 9780195069051. - blurbs don't make it clear what the "four" are, exactly. And British != Scottish, but it probably includes Scotland, or it would have said English.
• Ridner, Judith A. (2018). The Scots Irish of Early Pennsylvania: A Varied People. Pennsylvania Historical Association. ISBN 9781932304329.
• Zumkhawala-Cook, Ricahrd (Spring 2005). "The Mark of Scottish America: Heritage Identity and the Tartan Monster". Diaspora: A Journal of Transnational Studies. 14 (1). University of Toronto Press: 109–136. doi:10.1353/dsp.0.0009.
• Miller, Kerby A.; Boling, Bruce D.; Doyle, David N.; Schrier, Arnold, eds. (2003). Irish Immigrants in the Land of Canaan: Letters and Memoirs from Colonial and Revolutionary America 1675–1815. New York / Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN 9780195154894. – "A massive, scrupulously edited case studies of early emigrants from Ireland (most from Ulster)"
• Webb, James (2004). Born Fighting: How the Scots-Irish Shaped America. New York: Broadway Books. ISBN 9780767916899.
• Wokeck, Marianne (1999). Trade in Strangers: The Beginning of Mass Migration to North America. College Park: Pennsylvania State University Press. ISBN 9780271018331. – "Assesses the volume, character, and motivations for Ulster [among other, e.g. German, African, etc.] emigration to America."
• Miller, Kerby A. (1988) [1985]. Emigrants in Exile: Ireland and the Irish Exodus to North America. New York / Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN 9780195051872. – Not limited to Ulster.
• Jackson, Carlton (1999) [1993]. A Social History of the Scotch-Irish. Lanham, New York: University Press of America / Madison Books. ISBN 9781568331423.
• Hoefling, Larry J. (2009). Scots and Scotch Irish: Frontier Life in North Carolina, Virginia, and Kentucky. Inlandia Press. ISBN 9780982231326.
• Hanna, Charles Augustus (1902). The Scotch-Irish or the Scot in North Britain, North Ireland, and North America. Vol. 1. New York / London: G. P. Putnam's Sons – via Google Books.
• Hanna, Charles Augustus (1902). The Scotch-Irish or the Scot in North Britain, North Ireland, and North America. Vol. 2. New York / London: G. P. Putnam's Sons – via Internet Archive.
• Ford, Henry Jones (1915). The Scotch-Irish in America. Princeton University Press – via Google Books.
• Chepesiuk, Ronald (2005) [2000]. The Scotch-Irish: From the North of Ireland to the Making of America. Jefferson, North Carolina: McFarland Press. ISBN 9780786422739.
• Brownstein, Robin; Guttmacher, Peter (1988). The Scotch Irish Americans. "Peoples of North America" series. New York: Chelsea House. ISBN 9780877548751. – This may be a kids' book intended for school libraries; check reviews before ordering.
• Bolton, Charles Knowles (1910). Scotch Irish Pioneers in Ulster and America. Boston: Bacon and Brown – via Internet Archive.
• Blethen, Tyler; Wood, Curtis W. Jr. (2001) [1997]. Ulster and North America: Transatlantic Perspectives on the Scotch-Irish. Tuscaloosa: University of Alabama Press. ISBN 9780817311353.

See also: Talk:Scottish diaspora#Additional sources, Talk:Ulster Scots people#Additional sources, Talk:Scotch-Irish Canadians#Additional sources, Talk:Irish diaspora#Additional sources.
 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:19, 31 August 2023 (UTC); rev'd. 13:24, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

The chart headed "Total Population in U.S" -- the article should state who that counts

Clearly the numbers do not include Native Americans. I suggest a change of label to reflect the chart's reference group. For example: Total population of European ethnic groups in the U.S. MREditor493 (talk) 01:10, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

The 27 million count for "Scotch-Irish" is sourced to the unreliable, unscholarly Jim Webb, who based his estimate on a hunch. Webb seems to have been cited elsewhere down the page, but unfortunately nobody cares about this article so it's unwatched, unmonitored. Jonathan f1 (talk) 02:37, 19 August 2024 (UTC)