Talk:Sami Frashëri

Comments

To satisfy BOTH Turks and Albanians, this page is being moved to "Şemseddin Sami Frashëri", his original and full name withwhich he signs his books.

Anyways I am currenty working on a majon overhaul of the article, that is obviously of poor quality when someone like Fraşeri is concerned. Do not hesitate to ask any questions you might have!!

Cheers! --Eae1983 (talk) 11:29, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

It should stay under Sami Frasheri. Far mor important for Albania than for Turkey (in fact he was a rilindas). --sulmues (talk) 18:17, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Şemseddin Sami

The Turks know him like that. So I used "bold text". He was the father of Ali Sami Yen. Böri (talk) 10:01, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Aromanians

Like many other articles related to Frasher and its people, the sources which claim to an original Vlach village are misused and misinterpreted to derive the ethnicity of a whole region.
There is no primary source of the time or secondary one mentioning that Frasheri brothers were Vlachs. Naim Frasheri wrote books in Turkish, Albanian, and Persian. Nothing in Aromanian, although there were Aromanian schools and even colleges far earlier than Albanian ones. Also, their Bektashi nature is typical Albanian, while there are other Rilindas who had ties with Romania, spoke Aromanian, emigrated to Romania, and were Easter Orthodox. So how do you know that Frasheri family was Aromanian? Where do they originate from?
The sources that are presented refer to original studies from Romanian authors which talk about the village origin, not about any specific family. The reference from Tanner says: "In Albania, it is claimed that the famous Frasheri brothers were in fact Aromanians". The second source from Munster says: "Many national heroes ...are known to have been Aromanians". No reference anywhere.
Initially Frasher was a village of 6 houses. With time it got bigger. The Frasher region (which sources refer to, not only the village) also known as Dangelli became known later in 16-17th century.[1] With the establishment of a local baazar, Frasher became the second center of the Kazaa of Permet, therefore much bigger than Kelcyre, Petran, or Leskovik for the time.
In this perspective there are many families which left Frasher and many which came and settled. To pretend that everyone who is Frasheriot is Aromanian because originally there was a 6-house village of Aromanian settlers, is like marking all people who are born in Catania as "Italian people of Greek descent" just because it was a Greek colony long ago. Mondiad (talk) 20:16, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

How would you possible want to make a comparison with Ancient Greek Sicily and current Catania? If you have sources refuting their descent, present them. Their Aromun descent is interesting due to the fact that Islamized Aromuns seem to have been influential in the Rilinda; in par with other assimilated Balkan Vlach communities that served their host nation.--Zoupan 03:57, 15 November 2015 (UTC) Blocked sock:Ajdebre.

Where do you see the Islamized Aromuns here. What source talks about Islamized Aromuns. There are many Aromanian settlements in Balkans, some bigger some smaller. So, everyone born there is marked as Aromanian?

I picked Catania, I could have picked Marseille, or Istanbul. I am not comparing them to Frasher. I am just projecting the same logic that people used to derive the ethnicity of Frasheri's brothers. Mondiad (talk) 14:26, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi, I was invited to participate here by Mondiad. Admittedly I am not very familiar with the issue at hand. What Mondiad writes is sensible and illustrates why we shouldn't rely too much on a single source or cherry-pick things, but in the end, it always comes down to what sources we have, what the sources say and how they say it. Here the couple of references seem to be of good pedigree, i.e. they are secondary, scholarly publications directly relevant to the topic. However the Tanner reference says "in Albania it is claimed that the famous Frasheri Brothers, the most important figures of the Albanian national movement, were in fact Aromanians", in turn referenced to Schwandner-Sievers 1999, an article titled Humiliation and Reconciliation in Northern Albania: the Logics of Feuding in Symbolic and Diachronic Perspectives. We should track down the original reference, and see what it says. If it is on the lines of "among Aromanians, the Frasheri brothers are often considered Aromanians", then this is how we should present it. To avoid ambiguity in such cases, it is often a good idea to quote directly from the source. Constantine ✍ 10:36, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

@Zoupan. See: George Gawrych (2006). The crescent and the eagle: Ottoman rule, Islam and the Albanians, 1874-1913]. IB Tauris. p. 13. [2] . The family itself carried traditions that they where descendants of timar holders hailing from Berat on their fathers side while their mother was a descendant of Ilyas Imrahor, a distinguished Ottoman commander from the Korca area. The village of Frasher has a mixed Albanian and Vlach population dating back to Ottoman times. George Gawrych who has done an extensive study of Naim's brother Sami Frasheri discusses their family origins and refers to them as Muslim Albanians. As for Islamized Vlachs, sorry even the most in depth studies (Greek ones !) of the religious, linguistic etc composition of southern Albania unequivocally does NOT refer to Muslim Vlachs in the 19th century (and southern Albanians mainly Islamised in the previous century) in Southern Albania or even what is now Greek Epirus. For more see: Mihalis Kokolakis (2003). Το ύστερο Γιαννιώτικο Πασαλίκι: χώρος, διοίκηση και πληθυσμός στην τουρκοκρατούμενη Ηπειρο (1820-1913) [The late Pashalik of Ioannina: Space, administration and population in Ottoman ruled Epirus (1820-1913). EIE-ΚΝΕ. p.53. "Με εξαίρεση τις ολιγομελείς κοινότητες των παλιών Ρωμανιωτών Εβραίων της Αρτας και των Ιωαννίνων, και την ακόμη ολιγομελέστερη ομάδα των Καθολικών της Αυλώνας, οι κάτοικοι της Ηπείρου χωρίζονται με το κριτήριο της θρησκείας σε δύο μεγάλες ομάδες, σε Ορθόδοξους και σε Μουσουλμάνους. [With the exception of a few members of the old communities such as Romaniote Jews of Arta and Ioannina, and even small groups of Catholics in Vlora, the residents of Epirus were separated by the criterion of religion into two major groups, the Orthodox and Muslims.]"; p. 54. "Η μουσουλμανική κοινότητα της Ηπείρου, με εξαίρεση τους μικρούς αστικούς πληθυσμούς των νότιων ελληνόφωνων περιοχών, τους οποίους προαναφέραμε, και τις δύο με τρεις χιλιάδες διεσπαρμένους «Τουρκόγυφτους», απαρτιζόταν ολοκληρωτικά από αλβανόφωνους, και στα τέλη της Τουρκοκρατίας κάλυπτε τα 3/4 περίπου του πληθυσμού των αλβανόφωνων περιοχών και περισσότερο από το 40% του συνόλου. [The Muslim community in Epirus, with the exception of small urban populations of the southern Greek-speaking areas, which we mentioned, and 2-3000 dispersed "Muslim Romani", consisted entirely of Albanian speakers, and in the late Ottoman period covered approximately 3/4 of population ethnic Albanian speaking areas and more than 40% of the total area."; pp.55-56. p.374. Please read up before making conclusions everyone.Resnjari (talk) 07:43, 3 July 2016 (UTC)