Talk:Sager orphans

Cleanup

Yes, for the record this was rewritten/translated by a native German speaker--he's from Austria anyway :). Katr67 13:36, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I became more convinced of that after seeing the use of commas and some of the phrases literally translated from the obscure tenses. The first orienting clue was the German-specific spelling of Laramie as Laremie. Funny how one notices those things when traveling.... —EncMstr 17:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm getting an error for the citations being different for the references to Pringle. I believe the only differences are the page numbers, is there a proper way to include page numbers in citations to not get that error? —afeller08 1:07, 12 October 2022 (UTC) Unrelatedly, it seems to me that there are a lot of separate related articles that probably should be combined into one. My stance would be that this particular article probably should not exist, and just redirect to an article on the Whitman "Massacre," but I don't want to make that edit without changing the name of that article. Collapsing all of the articles into one could also really help with the citations. I'm only adding citations for the content I've added that I don't see previously existing on Wikipedia, but I think quite a lot of this page was better-covered and better-cited on some of those other pages. —afeller08 1:07, 12 October 2022 (UTC) Also, unrelatedly, I don't know how much different the "documentary" "Seven Alone" is from the novel that has been published under the titles "Seven Alone" and "Onto Oregon," but I originally found this page in the course of trying to find the name of Catherine Sager's memoir to fact check that book against the account it is supposedly based on, and that book is unambiguously a novel that is very, very loosely inspired by a true story. If the film is anything like the novel, we probably shouldn't be calling at a documentary or treating it as a citable source. Seems like it would be more appropriate to mention that as being a reference to these children in popular culture. —afeller08 1:07, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Picture

The photo of these three women is not the Sager daughters..I have this same photo from my family albums that says these are the Ramson sister, Matilda, Augusta and Alvina Ramson. Alvina was married to Rudolph Sager. Somehow this photo has been misidentified. I have photos of these women when they were younger, also, and the likeness to the women in this photo is unmistakeable. Linda G. Westrich —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.97.228.129 (talk • contribs) 17:19, June 20, 2007

Here's the url the image was sourced from: http://www.nps.gov/archive/whmi/educate/whmitg/3whmi4.htm Latr, Katr 21:06, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

This photo is NOT the Sager Orphans. This photo has been mislabeled. These are the Ramson sisters, Mathilda, Alvina and Augusta. This photo is in my family album. Alvina was married to Rudolph Sager. You are perpetrating a lie with this photo. LG Westrich —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.200.149.102 (talk • contribs) 01:19, September 13, 2007

Please check the URL above and take up your complaint with the National Park Service, which we consider a reliable source, though of course they could be wrong. The caption on the picture there says, "Catherine Sager Pringle, Elizabeth Sager Helm, and Matilda Sager Delaney. Taken at the 50th anniversary commemoration, November 1897. (Photo identified by family members and historians.)", however. Katr67 01:58, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Image talk:Catherine, Elizabeth and Matilda Sager.jpg

I have contacted the National Park Service on behalf of Ms. Westrich, as she has given no indication whether she has done so. Here is the text of my message:

Hi, I'm a volunteer editor at Wikipedia and in our article about the Sager Orphans:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sager_orphans an editor used this image from your website (which we understand to be in the public domain):

http://www.nps.gov/archive/whmi/educate/whmitg/3whmi4.htm

You can see the attribution here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Catherine%2C_Elizabeth_and_Matilda_Sager.jpg

Unfortunately, someone thinks that your identification of the image is incorrect, which you can read about here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_talk:Catherine%2C_Elizabeth_and_Matilda_Sager.jpg

And here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sager_orphans#Picture

I don't know how to contact Ms. Westrich, since she is editing using an dynamic IP, but I thought I would try to intervene on her behalf. Like I said in my postings on Wikipedia (as User:Katr67), we consider the NPS to be a reliable source, but I thought I would let you know of this person's concern on the chance that she may be onto something. If possible, please let me know if you can (or can't) reassure us of the accuracy of the description of the image and what further steps should be taken. Thanks for your time and attention!

[My Real Name]

I hope this helps! I'll post again when I hear back from them. Katr67 (talk) 05:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

just for the record, i have been researching the Sager family for the better part of 15 years, as they are my family! this photo has been cited in numorous websites as well as in several books. i have about 120 photos of the sisters throughout their lives and they all match the ladies in this photo on here. i am not meaning to call any source a falsity, however, the photo could have been labled wrongly in the other persons albums.

~jds662005 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.174.145.71 (talk) 21:37, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

from Samuel Lancaster book

Was this issue ever resolved? Maybe this photo would help? Valfontis..? -Pete Forsyth (talk) 16:52, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Number of deaths at Whitman massacre

In the lede of the massacre article it says 15 people were killed, but the text seems to indicate only 13 people total were killed, including the Whitmans. Do we a have definitive source for the number so we can be consistent across all the articles dealing with this event? I think the recent changes to the number in this article may have been in good faith. Katr67 (talk) 19:29, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

The lede says 15 people were murdered, but maybe that figure includes Helen Mar Meek and Louise Sager, who weren't murdered, but died later in captivity? Katr67 (talk) 19:31, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I did a very quick research on the Internet and found several statements on the number of casualties (URL above each statement):

[1] Those killed were: Marcus Whitman, age 44, Narcissa Prentiss Whitman, age 39, John Sager, age 17, Francis "Frank" Sager, age 15, Andrew Rogers, adult, Crocket Bewley, age 18, W. L. Saunders, adult, Peter D. Hall, adult (killed after escaping to Fort Walla Walla and being refused entry), Nathan Kimball, adult, Walter Marsh, adult, Isaac Gilliland, adult, Jacob Hoffmann, adult, Amos Sales, adult, James Young, 24. In addition, two children, Louise Sager, 6, and Helen Mar Meek, 10, died of measles during captivity.

[2] During the struggle, one or the other pressed the muzzle of their white man's weapon to the base of Marcus Whitman's throat and pulled the trigger. In the ensuing chaos, thirteen of the 72 individuals at the mission were killed. These included: Narcissa Whitman, Andrew Rogers, Jacob Hoffman, the schoolmaster L.W. Sanders, Mr. Marsh, John Sager, Francis Sager, Nathan Kimball, Isaac Gilliland, and Young Jr. Crockett Bewley and Amos Sales escaped the initial massacre unharmed. However, it is reported that upon hearing of the treatment of his sister, Lorinda, Crockett Bewley confronted the captors, resulting in his death and the death of Amos Sales. Peter Hall, who had also escaped the original massacre, was subsequently killed several days later by indians.

[3] The victims of this awful tragedy were Dr. Marcus Whitman, Mrs. Narcissa Whitman, John Sager, Francis Sager, Crocket Bewley, Mr. Rogers, Mr. Kimball, Mr. Sales, Mr. Marsh, Mr. Saunders, James Young, Jr., Mr. Hoffman, and Isaac Gillen. Peter B. Hall, while not killed at the mission, fled to Fort Walla Walla, but was denied admission, and was never heard of afterward.

These statements seem to be consistent. In the second statement Dr. Marcus Whitman has to be counted as the fourteenth victim. Louise Sager and Helen Mar Meek are not included in the fourteen victims of the massacre. There may be, however, some discussion, whether or not Bewley, Sales and especially Hall should be counted. Perhaps this information can be checked against Catherine's journal? Martin1971 (talk) 13:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

at the novel the ages of the orphans differ from this list and also from the list of German wikipedia article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.122.61.30 (talk) 13:20, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Seven Alone

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073686/

At the start of the 1974 film Seven Alone (just watched for 1st time last wkend as a TV afternoon movie), it said it was based upon Catherine Sager's account of her family's Oregon Trail experiences. It left the impression that the Whitmans lived in small cabin alone on the edge of the Willamette, that John Sager had successfully kept his siblings alive after a perilous trek on their own since the wagon train adults wanted to separate & farm them out to various families, was able to take up an Oregon homestead in their parents' stead, & they all lived happily ever after together. Looked up something else, clicking one link led to another as oft occurs here, had to click once more when I saw their family name mentioned having so recently seen the film, & was surprised to discover the unhappy ending to the Sagers' story.

Since I'd be putting it into the article under something like an 'In film' heading, would it be OK to use the IMDB link? I know IMDB isn't considered a reliable source, but I'd merely be citing its existence. ScarletRibbons (talk) 10:08, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

Hostages

I am in no way trying to minimize the tragic circumstances those who were held endured, but I have to ask; why does it say "Several of the prisoners died" when the article implies only 5 of the 54 people died? 50.64.119.38 (talk) 07:48, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Wayne Mark Sager

Distant Relative Of The Sager Family. Lives In Montgomery, Alabama with 5 brothers and 4 sisters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.120.232.63 (talk) 00:01, 4 July 2017 (UTC)