Talk:River Dyfi

Name of the river in English

The OS map says River Dovey / Afon Dyfi. Wouldn't it be better to use one of these names rather than half n half English and Welsh?--JBellis 12:42, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

You're right there. Welsh is too beautiful a language to be bastardised like this. Howard Alexander (talk) 12:15, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

My feeling is that it should be at River Dyfi. Not only is it more popular according to the Google test (see Dovey - 9000 vs Dyfi - 18000) but most authoritative sources have it at Dyfi: BBC, Environment Agency, Countryside Council for Wales, Gwynedd council, Powys council, Wales tourism, for example. It was the most widespread spelling during the April Jones story last year. Gareth (talk) 14:56, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Either Afon Dyfi or River Dovey. River Dyfi is a horrible mixture of the two languages. RGCorris (talk) 15:53, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

I disagree: you're assuming that Dovey is the canonical English name for the river. Nowadays we have the River Teifi and River Conwy even though, historically, they were often referred to in English as Tivy and Conway. The same process seems to be happening with the Dyfi. Furthermore, rivers with Welsh names tend not to be called Afon xxx in English. Gareth (talk) 16:22, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

When the name "Aberdovey" disappears from road signs (rather than, as at present, doubling up with "Aberdyfi") I will accept that the canonical English name for the river has changed from Dovey to Dyfi. RGCorris (talk) 12:26, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

That's like saying that the River Afan should be at River Avon (as it was referred to historically in English) because the English name of Aberavon hasn't reverted to Aberafan. Town names tend to be less changeable than river names; this shouldn't be a reason for the Wikipedia page to carry the less widespread spelling. Gareth (talk) 17:06, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

To me a choice should be made. The article is headed River Dovey, but starts with River Dify, which is confusing if you are not familiar with this river. A compromise could be possible if the article stated (for example): The River Dyfi (Afon Dyfi in Welsh) often known as River Dify, .... Although I am not familiar with the area, it has been suggested that the estuary is seen as the divide of North and South Wales. If this is true, maybe that should be in the article. JHvW 08:35, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

It is not known as, or referred to in the article, as Dify. "Dovey" is the traditional English spelling, "Dyfi" the Welsh spelling. RGCorris (talk) 10:54, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

I may be stupid but the article is titled River Dovey. The first line starts The River Dyfi. How does this explain "It is not known as, or referred to in the article, as Dify"? The river is obviously referred to as Dify, my point is that there should not be corruption. If Ordnance Survey refer to it as River Dovey or Afon Dyfi, I really do not care, but the name should be consistent. My thinking is that if the valley is called the Dyfi Valley and the long distance walk is called the Dify Valley Way, is it not logical that Dify is the more usual than Dovey. So the article, in my mind, should read: The River Dovey (Afon Dyfi in Welsh), although generally known as the river Dyfi....... JHvW 21:36, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

You seem to be unable to distinguish "Dify" (no such word) from "Dyfi" (the Welsh name for the river). RGCorris (talk) 09:58, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

The usual policy on the English-language Wikipedia for naming articles is to use the formal name most familiar to English-speakers. I have checked the latest paper Ordnance Survey Explorer and Landranger maps and both still use the bilingual Dyfi/Dovey for the river unlike with the River Conwy in which they solely use the Welsh spelling. I have also checked the BT Phone Book for Aberystwyth, which covers the local area, and while some businesses in Machynlleth and Aberdyfi/Aberdovey, in which the book uses the anglicised spelling for Aberdovey, use Dyfi in their names others continue to use Dovey which I take as a sign that the Welsh spelling has still not gained universal acceptance in English. I am also sure that the road signs on the approach to bridges across the river used the bilingual Afon Dyfi/River Dovey as recently as this decade. Tk420 (talk) 21:05, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

I have started a move discussion for Aberdyfi (see Talk:Aberdyfi#Requested move 17 June 2019 if you would like to contribute) in the hope of resolving the edit war there as the situation is similar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tk420 (talk • contribs)

@Tk420: The outcome of that discussion was to keep the article at Aberdyfi. The consensus formed was that the river and village are known as Dyfi and Aberdyfi. Which makes me wonder why you have taken it on yourself to act against that consensus and change all the names of the river in articles about local places from Dyfi to Dovey. Railfan23 (talk) 16:39, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

The said move discussion on Aberdyfi was about the name of the village not the river which are separate entities although the issue is similar. I looked back on the history of River Dovey article and it was moved from River Dyfi by User:Howard Alexander on 15 May 2012 and has remained at the anglicised spelling ever since. I changed the name of the river, adding the Welsh translation in the first instance to explain the widespread local usage, in other articles to match the name of this article and these edits have gone unchallenged until now despite the recent Aberdyfi move discussion. I have so far not suggested a move for this article under the impression this is the unofficial compromise, to avoid confusing those unfamiliar with the dispute similar to the official compromise over Derry/Londonderry, of using the Welsh spelling for the village but the anglicised spelling for the river. Although the Welsh spelling is used by the local councils and the Welsh Government I think official place names might be a reserved rather than a devolved matter hinted by the continued use of the anglicism by Ordnance Survey and Network Rail (in the name of Dovey Junction station) which are both agencies of the United Kingdom Government in Westminster and also hinted by the 2007 court case on Derry/Londonderry which clarified an official name change from Londonderry would require a petition to the Privy Council of the United Kingdom which is also reserved. I blame my confusion on not having an official guideline (not one I know of anyway) on whether to use the Welsh or English name for places in Wales and I admit it might be helpful to have one in Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)#United_Kingdom similar to Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Ireland-related_articles#Place_names. Tk420 (talk) 21:53, 21 July 2019 (UTC) (edited)

@Tk420: You were the one that connected the Aberdyi discussion to the discussion of this page's name - right above here. Please don't claim your changes are unchallenged: I haven't reverted your changes on other articles, but I very clearly have challenged them here, on your talk page and at other article talk pages. The Derry/Londonderry case is far from similar, and is a very poor analogy to draw. Your theory that Welsh place names are reserved for the UK government is incorrect. The Welsh Language Act 1993 explicitly devolves power in this regard to the Secretary of State for Wales and these powers were later (and are currently) held by the National Assembly for Wales. In 2012, the Assembly appointed a Welsh Language Commissioner under the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011. It was the commissioner who ruled that the official name of Aberdyfi is Aberdyfi. While the commission hasn't published an opinion about the river (as far as I can see), their ruling on Aberdyfi seems to give us a clear way forward on the name of the river as well. Railfan23 (talk) 00:07, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

By 'unchallenged' I meant no-one reverted my edits to the name of the river, starting with the ones in the Aberdyfi article, until 22 July 2019. As far as I am aware the Welsh government does not have the power to overrule the central government or private companies continuing to use the anglicism explaining its continued use. To ask a hypothetical question the appropriate authorities might need to submit a petition to the Privy Council to persuade Westminster to stop using the anglicism in the context of reserved matters. Tk420 (talk) 13:29, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Tk420, we are trying to engage with you on your talk page, but so far you have not responded. RGCorris (talk) 14:53, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

@Tk420: Again you make the claim that the spelling of place names in Wales is a "reserved" matter. You have shown zero evidence that this is the case. On the other hand, I have quoted you the specific legislation that explicitly makes this a devolved matter to the Welsh Assembly. This theory of yours that the Privy Council would have to be petitioned is just incorrect. I'm afraid on this, you are badly wrong. As to this "unchallenged" business, you claim that "no-one reverted my edits to the name of the river, starting with the ones in the Aberdyfi article, until 22 July 2019", well, given you only made the edits on 21 July, that's hardly surprising. In fact, the first (partial) revert was done on 21 July, and I explicitly challenged your changes above, also on 21 July. There are other ways to challenge an editor than reverting them. Railfan23 (talk) 15:04, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 28 July 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Move to River Dyfi. There is clear consensus that this is the most common form. Cúchullain ^t/c 16:36, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

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River Dovey → Afon Dyfi – Following the above discussion, and the related discussions at Talk:Aberdyfi and Talk:Afon Twymyn, I think it is time to move this article to its proper Welsh name, which is increasingly used by official and unofficial sources. Alternatives would be to move to River Dyfi or leave it at River Dovey. Railfan23 (talk) 20:40, 28 July 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. Iffy★Chat -- 21:55, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

Here are some sources to start the conversation. First, looking at Google News, there are 34 results for "River Dovey", 5 for "Afon Dyfi" and 180 for "River Dyfi". The Ordnance Survey uses "Afon Dyfi/River Dovey"; note that they put "Afon Dyfi" first. They also have a page about Dyffryn Dyfi which puts the anglicised version in parentheses. If you search for the terms "River Dovey", "Afon Dyfi" and "River Dyfi" on Google Books, you'll find good reliable sources for each version, but the "Dovey" spelling is predominant only in older books, with River/Afon "Dyfi" more common in newer (last 50 years) sources. To me, this means we should clearly use "Dyfi" over "Dovey", but it does leave more open the question of "River" vs "Afon". Railfan23 (talk) 20:51, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

• Move but to River Dyfi I get more search results for 'River Dyfi' (about 210,000 over about 40,300 for 'Afon Dyfi') on Google although this should be taken with a pinch of salt as I get about 1,080,000 results for 'River Dovey'. Also, the Welsh Government, Visit Wales and the mainstream media e.g. the BBC, the Powys County Times, and North Wales Live tend to use the 'River' prefix suggesting it is more familiar to English-speakers. Tk420 (talk) 13:45, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
  • TK420, please respond to the comments on your Talk page RGCorris (talk) 14:26, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
• Move (to River Dyfi I think). I did the Google searches again, searching for the phrases rather than individual words. "River Dyfi" = 18,900, "River Dovey" = 14,000, "Afon Dyfi" = 11,200. Jrfw51 (talk) 14:25, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
• Move to River Dyfi, judging by the Welsh Government source the official name is clearly Dyfi. There's no need to tranlate 'River' into Welsh, this is the English language Wikipedia after all. Sionk (talk) 17:48, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
• The OS calls it "Afon Dyfi"/"River Dovey" but I'm not sure "River Dyfi" is a good idea since that's combining an English and Welsh name but I'm not sure either way. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:40, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

'Afon' is the Welsh word for 'River', not the name of the river. On Wicipedia Cymraeg we have articles titled Afon Trent and Afon Medway, for example, rather than 'River Trent' or 'River Medway'. The same rule should apply in the English Wikipedia, surely, especially for the larger, better known rivers. Sionk (talk) 22:14, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

The use of 'Dyfi' with English words is quite normal in the names of some local businesses e.g. Dyfi Wholefoods and Dyfi Eco Park in Machynlleth. In my previous contribution I used examples from the mainstream media which is influential. To use another example from North Wales the English word 'River' is used with 'Conwy' in OS maps of that area and in its Wikipedia article (River Conwy). Tk420 (talk) 22:24, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

• This RM was re-opened after the closer reverted his closure. Iffy★Chat -- 21:55, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
• Move to River Dyfi Contrary to User:DrKay's interpretation of my messages to them in User talk:DrKay#Request to provide reason for moving River Dyfi I was actually satisfied with the move to 'River Dyfi', which appears to be the most common name for it in modern-day reliable English-language sources, and was merely asking them to provide a reason for the use of the 'River' prefix over 'Afon', used in some articles about rivers in Wales, in case it is helpful in the discussion I started in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about rivers#RfC about the examples of local names on the wider issue over whether to use 'River' or 'Afon' in the title of an article about a river in Wales. To re-open this discussion on account of just one user who did not go through Wikipedia:Move review seems rather rash. This contrasts with my request to User:Cuchullain, who closed the Talk:Aberdyfi#Requested move 17 June 2019 discussion, to provide their reason to not move Aberdyfi to 'Aberdovey' ('Both names appear to be in use, but the consensus here is that the sources suggest "Aberdyfi" is the common name in English-language sources') which they provided in at the top of the relevant section and I publicly thanked them for it. Tk420 (talk) 09:47, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

References

Length

Having discovered that the quoted lengths of many UK rivers on WP were inaccurate, sometimes considerably so, I took a look at the Dyfi. Painstaking measurement of it from Creiglyn Dyfi to its mouth using 1:25,000 scale OS mapping using an online digital measuring app (wheresthepath) reveals a length of 59.7km / 37.1mi to the county limit in tidal waters. It is a further 2km to the approximate end of the channel as mapped at low tide. 0.8km can be added on for the distance between the start of the headwater stream and the exit of the lake (to provide a length for the physical watercourse as opposed to the named/cultural feature). The figures I provide are considerably in excess of the 48km/30mi quoted presently in the article. All of this is original research on my part and so cannot be added to the article but it does give an idea of what an accurate figure will look like when an editor can find one in some external reference. cheers — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geopersona (talk • contribs) 10:47, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Aberdyfi has an RFC

Aberdyfi has an RFC for possible consensus over the usage of alternate spellings for the name of the community on the English language Wikipedia. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you.Tk420 (talk) 10:46, 30 March 2023 (UTC)