Talk:Ring Road (Cairo)

requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved to Ring Road (Cairo). Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 22:19, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

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Cairo ring road → Cairo's Ring Road –

Comment to closing admin: please move instead to Ring Road (Cairo).

"The recent move said "commonly lower-case in sources", but "Cairo ring road" and "Cairo Ring Road" have about 50/50 usage in books [1] so WP:COMMONNAME does not give a definitive answer. The road has an official proper name, it's called "Ring Road"[2][3]. Per WP:LOWERCASE proper names are capitalized. Of course, "Ring Road" is awfully ambiguous, so, per WP:PRECISION I proposed adding "Cairo's" in front. --Enric Naval (talk) 17:35, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose proposed name. Ring Road (Cairo) would be the appropriate way to disambiguate the name if the former Cairo Ring Road isn't restored. Imzadi 1979 → 19:40, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
• Ditto. Possessives are ugly and probably contravene the WP:Manual of Style. Support Ring Road (Cairo). 86.25.185.218 (talk) 16:03, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose – what I said before is true: it's commonly found in lower-case in sources (about half as Enric admits). Dicklyon (talk) 05:34, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

• What do you think of Ring Road (Cairo)? I find that's a good alternative. --Enric Naval (talk) 20:59, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Since Ring Road is the proper name of a unique road in Cairo, and since that road is not the topic of this article, the new title was no good. I moved it to Ring road (Cairo), but I think the original Cairo ring road was better. I'll see if I can move it back there, since the RM above moved it without consensus to a title that the RM was not about. Dicklyon (talk) 04:31, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Nope; needs another RM to fix. Not worth my trouble. Dicklyon (talk) 04:33, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

First, stop undoing RMs that don't go your way.

Second, I would like to see sources stating the relationship between "Circular Road" and "Ring Road".

Third, the topic of this article is a 110 km long ring road about Egypt, which sources call "Cairo Ring Road". The topic is not the specific street called "Ring Road", which should be covered in a different article. --Enric Naval (talk) 23:48, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Hey, Enric, good job improving the article with all the refs. I still don't understand why you're treating "ring road" as proper though. Most of your sources don't support that; some capitalize it for other reasons, and some have it in lower case. And if you look on the maps, the streets named "Ring Road" are only partially overlapping the ring road. Part is called "Circular Road". Have you consulted any maps to try to understand the relation between street names the generic concept of a ring road? Dicklyon (talk) 03:34, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

(Most sources? The name is capitalized in the two sources from Harvard University Press, and in the sources from American Univ in Cairo Press, Odoya srl, and GEOSPACE. It is uncapitalized in Springer, Independent, Taylor & Francis and UNESCO courier. That's 5/4 in favor of capitalization. All sources that talk about the original master plans capitalize the name. All sources from university presses capitalize the name.)

Maps are primary sources..... I have yet to see any secondary source discussing Cairo's "Circular Road", either by itself or as part of a ring road. Google books gives no relevant hits[4] and web searches don't turn up anything useful. The topic "Ring Road + Circular Road = ring road" doesn't seem to have any secondary source. This lack of sources prevents me from even creating a stub on Circular Road (Cairo).

On the other hand, the road called "Ring Road" has a number of RS analyzing origin, purpose, effects, Giza controversy, etc. None of them mention "Circular Road".

Sources talk about the specific road approved in 1984, so that's what the article should be about. A separate ring road (Cairo) stub might be feasible, using the Taylor&Francis source. --Enric Naval (talk) 05:27, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

The first ref you quote as saying "It envisaged the completion of the beltway, or 'Ring Road'"; that's clearly not interpretable as a proper name; they capitalized it for some other reason. Similarly with some of the others, if you'll look. And none of the sources about the ring road talk about the specific road names that make it up, which is why I looked at maps and found both "Ring Road" and "Circular Road" as part of the route that other maps call the ring road. True, I don't have a good secondary source, but it's pretty good evidence that your interpretation of "Ring Road" as the proper name of the ring road is bogus. Dicklyon (talk) 06:50, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

The other Harvard source says it quite clearly: "a seventy-three-kilometer automotive beltway, called the Ring Road.". You say that there are other reasons for capitalizing, but you don't explain them or give any source for them. And you don't give any secondary sources for your interpretations of primary sources and I couldn't find any by myself. --Enric Naval (talk) 11:06, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I see two different topics:

• Ring Road (Cairo) 73 km long Ring Road, sourced to RS as having a definite purpose and length, a single road that lacks a section in Giza.
• ring road (Cairo) ~100 km long set of beltways, sourced to maps and Taylor&Francis source.

I'm thinking of writing a stub for the second topic. --Enric Naval (talk) 13:35, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

OK, go for it, lame though it sounds. I'm going to unwatch now, as I have a couple of tough weeks ahead of me and better things to do. Dicklyon (talk) 15:27, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

OK, stub made. Cheers. --Enric Naval (talk) 16:42, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm tempted to add "Cairo inhabitants call 'ring road' to the whole beltway around Cairo", WP:OR be damned. What do you think? --Enric Naval (talk) 16:52, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Merge

It seems functional to merge information from Ring road (Cairo) to this article. Northamerica1000 ^(talk) 00:01, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Name

This road is called الطريق الدائري ('the ring road' - not 'ring road') only by residents of Cairo. This is normal. It happens in almost every city with a ring road. It does not imply the road is called 'ring road'. In Alexandria 'the ring road' means Alexandria's half-circular bypass freeway. --عبد المؤمن (talk) 16:21, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

I suggest this page be moved to 'Cairo Ring Road' --عبد المؤمن (talk) 16:22, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Why not 'Cairo ring road'? It's not a name, as you note (though a part of it has the name Ring Road, and another part Circular Road, and another part something else, according to maps I have examined to try to figure this out. Dicklyon (talk) 17:28, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Dicklyon, please, don't rehash the same arguments again. The sources talk about a road called "Ring Road", which covers only 3/4 of the circumference of Cairo. I'll refresh your memory: I created a separate article about the "ring road" in general, and you asked for deletion as a duplicate in Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Ring_road_(Cairo). The encyclopedic topic is the specific "Ring Road". There are three generic "ring roads" around Cairo, someone suggested at the AfD that Ring roads of Cairo might be a feasible topic for a separate article. --Enric Naval (talk) 17:47, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

But the old problem remains: the article is very confused about whether it's about the ring road, or about the portion of it named Ring Road. I am not aware of any other ring roads around Cairo, but will be happy to know your sources on that. Dicklyon (talk) 19:53, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I have to rectify myself again, there are two proposed ring roads for Cairo, apart from the existing one, it's already cited in the article. --Enric Naval (talk) 20:13, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, just one Cairo ring road so far, but more planned. I agree. Dicklyon (talk) 20:32, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes - there is a 'regional ring road' much further out currently U/C. The current freeway is an incomplete ring road - no other road is considered a circular for Cairo (though there are other freeways in the west of the urban area, in Giza and 6th October). The second ring road (U/C) passes round the outside of New Cairo and Helwan. --عبد المؤمن (talk) 15:47, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

If you're in Cairo, or know people who can find out, it would be good to understand the road names better. Google maps shows Ring Road splitting, on the south side, and going different ways. The way that's part of the ring road used to be titled Circular Road on the map, but now is also called Ring Road. Another part on the south had a different name, and I found it in instructions about what roads to follow to get from the airport to various hotels, where the route along the ring road was described in terms of the names of the different parts. Here's one from a google snippet just now: "Directions To The Property leave Cairo International Airport On The Airstrip To The ring Road. Keep Left To Get Onto The Ring Road Until Circular Road. Follow This Road Until Mehwar El Moneeb. ..." If it can be clarified how these names relate, that would be useful. Another says "Take the exit from Cornish al Nile to the Ring road – Mehwar El Moneeb," suggesting that the road name Mehwar El Moneeb is the ring road, or at least part of it. Or is it just a translation of "ring road"? Dicklyon (talk) 19:28, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

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