Talk:Korean ethnic nationalism

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This article is a target of a coordinated off-wiki campaign

Noting for good measure for established editors that there seems to be a coordinated off-wiki effort by incel Korean ultranationalist editors based on this post on Reddit, aiming to remove or whitewash negative aspects of this article. John Yunshire (talk) 01:58, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

While I don’t agree with all of the article, I will point out that as the person who submitted a previous correction on the initial definition, it is pointedly biased that Korean ethnic nationalism is being defined as racist and chauvinist, but other forms of ethnic nationalism make no such mention in their first line definition. I.E. Japanese Nationalism is not labeled as racist, there’s no mention of racism with in White nationalism’s entire introductory section, and so on and so forth. I would say that if those are to be included on the page, it shouldn’t be included in the base definition unless we wish to go to all other pages defining other forms of ethnic or racial nationalism and specifically label them as being racist and chauvinist as well. 2603:8001:6501:4C82:2536:1527:575C:871E (talk) 03:34, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Group reply in English (for public record; someone posted in Korean here, replying to them as well):

There is no editorial "team" on Wikipedia. I also dislike Mureungdowon's edits, and I have similar complaints to you (although I disagree with parts of your complaints, will explain). Mureungdowon is neurotic, biased, and continues to break rules by making sockpuppets and continuing their disruptive edits.

I am one of the only editors fixing problems with Korea-related articles. There aren't even enough people for a "team".

While I agree the tone of this article is biased, the situation is more complicated than you realize, which is why I haven't gone through and just deleted most of it. by rule, comparison between articles alone is not an appropriate standard for deletion. Comparison can be a useful reference point, but if you want to edit it, you better be prepared to debate. That's how Wikipedia works.

Relevant Wikipedia rules are WP:NOTABILITY and WP:VERIFY. If something is notable and verifiable to a reliable source, it can be included.

So given that I also dislike this article, why did I not fix it? Because I'm only one person and I have dozens of other things that I want to fix. Untangling this mess of an article is a headache, because not all of it is false, it's just been worded poorly by a neurotic person who I don't always have the energy to deal with.

In short, if you dislike this article, instead of asking me to fix it (there is no team of people who will do it for you, really mostly just me), learn how Wikipedia works, make an account (anonymous IP users are distrusted), and fix it yourself. Please help me. I am one of the only frequent editors on Korea-related topics on the English Wikipedia. toobigtokale (talk) 06:48, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

As a suggestion, one way to fix this article would be to claim issues with WP:NPOV and WP:CONTENTIOUS. Mureungdowon was known for making bad edits, so their reputation is also a supporting argument. toobigtokale (talk) 06:53, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Gave it a quick revision, I'm still not happy with it. The article has issues with jumping to conclusions that aren't explicitly written, WP:UNDUE, or WP:SYNTHESIS. However, racism is very much real in Korea. You'd be surprised at how little I can delete given that it aligns with the sources.

If anything, articles about other ethnic nationalism should be made more harsh. Racism is not exclusive to Korea, and I'd argue in some ways places like Eastern Europe, Latin America, or the Middle East are worse with their racism. toobigtokale (talk) 07:36, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

I do have an account, I just forgot it’s username, so congrats. I’m on a new one now. /lh

Also I get that, and I welcome the debate. But I think that my comparison is a worthwhile one because if you’re trying to avoid biased language then the comparison is useful in proving the point that the language was biased.

I was also, personally, not saying that all mentions of racism should be deleted. I think the racism should be discussed, bc there is definite racism in the ideology. but immediately prescribing Korean Ethnic Nationalism as racist and chauvinist in the first line description is very different than discussing racism. It is presupposition right out the gate, and presents what’s clearly an opinion before we even define the term. That’s my personal issue. Define the term before we discuss its idealogical issues. Like the definition of ethnic nationalism isn’t ‘racist ideology.’ While ethnic nationalism is a racist ideology, that’s not its actual definition.

I should also make it clear that I’m not with that group, nor have I ever been. I’m a Korean anarchist. Bingsujung (talk) 19:18, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree with most of what you wrote and in fact already adjusted the writing to reflect what you wrote, I was more speaking to the collective angry people. Also, Korea-related articles need serious revision. My asking you to work with an account should not be a "congrats", it should be "if I care about how Korea is portrayed I'll do this". This article is far from alone. toobigtokale (talk) 22:54, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

@John Yunshire, while I think some of the broad strokes of your editing are fine, I think part of the dissatisfaction with how you've been protecting this article is justified.

The article has significant issues, and your responses, instead of pointing people towards how to fix them or even identifying the specific policies that the edits violate, are often glib and uninformative (even without edit comment, which is considered not good practice). While you shouldn't be targeted by off-site reddit users, I'd also like to ask you to make more of an effort to explain things if you undo more edits in the future. toobigtokale (talk) 07:54, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't think a reddit post with 24 upvotes will be capable of doing anything. -- 00101984hjw (talk) 20:00, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Rigor

This is a contentious topic, which means it demands serious and rigorous scholarship. This article's main issue is that it lacks it.

It depends on the scenario, but citing opinion pieces is generally not acceptable for contentious claims. I kept the Gi-Wook Shin article for now because Shin seems to be a respected scholar who's written a book on this topic, but some of the claims he makes in the opinion piece alone requires stronger sources. And blog posts are basically never acceptable.

So far, I've caught numerous instances where things are claimed as settled fact, when it's just the opinion of a few scholars. Some of those times I agree with those scholars, but that's still unacceptable. At the very least, we must say, "Scholar X believes that Y".

Do a better job. This is a serious topic that impacts many people, so treat it seriously. toobigtokale (talk) 08:00, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

This article needs some serious discussions

I think its time we have a serious discussion about the nature of this article.

Has Korean ethnic nationalism (minjok-juui) provided a structural basis for race or ethnicity-based discrimination in Korea? In some cases, yes. Definitely.

But is it "racist, chauvinist, and ethnosupremacist" by itself? As someone who spent most of his life in South Korea, I never really perceived the term "민족주의" in a 'racial' context, but more of a emphasis of 'ethnic' pride. And ethnic pride is something that exists in countless countries. For instance, nobody would call Native American civil rights activists 'racist' for taking pride in their ancestry and ethnicity. I know its a well-sourced claim, but its feels NPOV to just state [Korean ethnic nationalism] has been described by several observers as racist, chauvinist, and ethnosupremacist on the first paragraph of the lead section. Many Koreans perceive "민족주의" in a non-racial context, and I think this line may be a little too misleading.

That being said, I think this article is factual in itself, but should be reformatted into different sections about the 'historic and historiographic concepts' of Korean ethnic nationalism, and its 'discriminatory applications' in Korean society and history. And just like what @toobigtookale has said, we need more rigorous scholarship on this subject.

Also, I'm not sure if there was a consensus about this, but why not just merge this article with Korean nationalism? The said article mentions Korean ethnic nationalism as one of the two contexts Korean nationalism can be viewed from. The article might get a bit long, but a subject like this deserves a long article. 00101984hjw (talk) 19:49, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Of course, every new text added will have to be referenced by a reliable source. 00101984hjw (talk) 20:16, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

I also agree with this. A lot of this stuff belongs in the Racism in South Korea article, not here.

Also, I would like to mention that the references in this articles used to back up some statements here are opinion pieces with biases.

Prime examples of this are the articles from Professors Robert Kelly and Shin Ki-wook:

This one, in the title of its front page says word for word "Opinion, News,...", and in its content is Professor Robert Kelly blatantly stating his opinions and constantly starting his sentences with "I have observed". [1] This man is a guy whose 'observation' is 'Koreans eating more dogs than spam' in 2021 and then replying with "Sorry, I admit most of my observations were anecdotal (in modern terms, TRUST ME BRO) " and closing his comment section when he was hit with backlash.

This Professor Shin Ki-Wook at Standford? [2] Quick google search shows he's notorious for rightist bias in Korean politics and worse, he's been under investigation for his involvement in a case where the director of NIS sent 2 million USD to a Korea-related institute at Standford, which he most likely worked in at the time.

The article also keeps trying to argue that minjok(民族) means "race". The reason why minjok(民族) is being thought of as "race" in the western world to this day is because Professors Shin Ki-wook, Brian Myers, and Robert Kelly translated minjok(民族) in their articles as "race". However, the official translation that the Korean government provides to accurately reflect the true meaning of this term is "people" or "ethnic group", shown here[3]

Why is it that the same term minzu(民族) or min zoku(民族) in Chinese and Japanese contexts is translated as nation and not race, and why is it that they don't get called "racists" over this ethnic pride they have? Notendiesonmyplate (talk) 04:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I think its time we do some major changes to this article as soon as we meet some consensus.

@Benlisquare @Madalibi – Any thoughts on this? I'd think more input would be helpful judging by the tumultuous history of this article. 00101984hjw (talk) 16:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

As for another proposal, I strongly suggest that we merge this article with Korean nationalism. Some reasons:

1. Korean ethnic nationalism(minjok-juui) has historically been used within the same context as Korean nationalism, as Korea is a ethnically homogenous nation. The Encyclopedia of Korean Culture asserts that "nationalism" has been translated as 'minjok-juui' by Korean scholars when the term first arrived in Korea.

1-1. quote: ‘nation’과 ‘nationalism’의 번역어는 국민과 국민주의, 국가와 국가주의, 민족과 민족주의 등 다양할 수 있는데 이 중에서 민족과 민족주의가 지배적 번역어로 채택된 사정은 한국의 식민화 과정과 밀접하게 관련되는 것이었다.

2. The Korean nationalism article mentions Korean ethnic nationalism as one of the contexts where Korean nationalism can be defined. Both articles are fairly short to pass WP:TOOBIG and I also see some minor content forks. So why keep them separate? Both Chinese nationalism and Japanese nationalism is described as a cultural, ethnic nationalism as separate from state nationalism.

3. Both Korean ethnic nationalism and Korean nationalism articles need an update and a lot of cleanup. There's also the occurring issue on whether "minjok" is defined as "race" or "people". These issues will be much better addressed in a single article and article talk page. 00101984hjw (talk) 17:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I any case, I agree with this article being merged with the nationalism page. Just replying so that I’d make myself clear. Notendiesonmyplate (talk) 05:09, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

How does this process usually work? Normally in another wiki-esque site that I use, someone calls for a moderator to come to the talks page and come up with a decision on this. It's been what, 5 days? without anything done? Notendiesonmyplate (talk) 04:23, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

I was waiting for more editors to share their input, but if no one is coming, I might as well just WP:BOLD it and make a merge proposal(see WP:MERGEPROP). Should I? 00101984hjw (talk) 04:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Been almost a week and nobody else has shown up. I think yes, you should. Notendiesonmyplate (talk) 05:11, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Sorry to bother you again with a mention, but would it be possible to have a moderator watching this article so that it would be impossible for accounts not old enough or anonymous IPs to be unable to edit it? This article is constantly under attack with unsourced claims, just like ones from right before the current revision. I thought it was against wikipedia policies like WP:NPOV, and yet, this article and a number of other Korean ones get attacked constantly. Notendiesonmyplate (talk) 07:53, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm relatively new to Wikipedia, so I don't know too much about what mods really do, but we can request a protection on the page through WP:RPP. We'll have to merge the two pages first, anyway. 00101984hjw (talk) 17:18, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

To add, we should keep the sources from Shin and Kelly, as they represent a group of conservative scholars in Korean studies, despite the controversies they may have. We're not pushing an agenda here(WP:ADVOCACY). What we CAN do, is to find more rigorous academic sources(other than newspaper articles on current events) which provides input on a different interpretation on Korea's ethnic nationalism, or on how it's concepts have shifted over time from racial nationalism to a more inclusive, ethnic and cultural nationalism. AND create a lead section that represents both concerns and dynamics of the subject in a non-judgmental way(WP:VOICE). 00101984hjw (talk) 18:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)