Talk:Protein poisoning

Organ Meat

Would eating the rabbit's organs help to alleviate the problem? Jarwulf 22:24, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Les Stroud the "Survivorman" mentioned rabbit starvation in one episode of his show. He said that eating the organs would work for getting some fat in your diet (if you were stranded and subsisting only on rabbit). He also suggested eating the bone marrow and eyes.

I believe he actually said the bones. He also said the brains, although I suppose that would fall under the category of organs. But he did specifically mention it. 140.147.160.78 18:22, 20 June 2007 (UTC)Stephen Kosciesza

Here is a helpful account:

http://www.raising-rabbits.com/rabbit-starvation.html

http://floridahillbilly.com/my-take-on-rabbit-starvation/ Kortoso (talk) 01:19, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

^ As a biologist who happens to farm rabbits: These articles are quite inaccurate. Heart, lungs, liver etc all have high protein to fat ratios, which is what's actually toxic. The brain however is quite high in fat and a good solution (presuming it doesn't have prions or something). You should also consider boiling the bones. All that said, its hard to imagine a world where you have an infinite supply of rabbit meat, and ONLY rabbit meat. If you have access to rabbits, surely those rabbits have access to food. If they have food via farming, you have rabbit pellets. These aren't good for you but they tend to be made from wheat, soy, corn, oats, and many other very digestible to human ingredients.

If you're in the wilds, there A. probably other animals, and B. probably wild greens/berries/seeds you could be eating instead. 74.78.17.187 (talk) 01:29, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Rewrite

This page really needs a complete rewrite. The whole article is a quote taken from a magazine (with the author's consent), and there could be copyright issues. It could also be construed to exist only for the promotion of the magazine in question. --Pappa 14:05, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm a biologist who happens to raise rabbits as a hobby and someone linked me to this page. Looking into it, it appears that protein poisoning is very rare and only occurs when someone's diet is composed of 50% or more protein. This is very hard to do accidentally, as most farmed meat is quite fatty, and societies with hunter/gatherers (which still exist) obtain most of their diets from plants. (https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/71/3/665/4729104) Because of this, there are practically no cases to be studied and it's not really a danger, even if someone eats a lot of rabbit.

Most scientific articles that reference "rabbit starvation" reference this article, which... isn't about rabbits at all, it's about elephants and mentions the alleged condition in passing: "https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0028689&type=printable"

An actual paper that analyses the condition more specifically states that it only occurred in situation of high altitude in which plants were too scarce to make up a significant portion of the diet. In these cases hunting humans relied almost entirely on wild game. Wild animals, being leaner then farmed livestock, tended to have much more protein then fat, which could lead to one of those rare unbalanced diets that crosses the 50% protein threshold. The liver can't process that much protein that fast. https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/71/3/682/4729121

All that said, rabbits don't seem to be much worse then other wild game of similar type. Beavers for example are 70% protein (https://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/lamb-veal-and-game-products/4622/2), Squirrel 76% protein https://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/lamb-veal-and-game-products/4622/2 and rabbits are 82% protein, and moose are 88% protein https://www.nutritionvalue.org/Moose%2C_raw_%28Alaska_Native%29%2C_meat_nutritional_value.html. Actually most larger animals like elk, and deer have higher ratios.

So basically: Even if you eat a lot of rabbit, you won't get sick from this. If you're in the wild, have no access to any edible plants at all, and MUST subsist on wild game exclusively, avoiding rabbits won't really help much.

All THAT said, I'm not sure how to go about rewriting this article. Fluent in biology I may be, but wikipedia's article format isn't my strong suit. Do I leave the rest of the info there, or gut it completely? What sort of sections should I divide this by? Or should I just do my best, and assume someone else will clean it up later?

74.78.17.187 (talk) 02:04, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Actually upon further research, the symptoms and effects of consuming this much protein are essentially just protein toxicity... which is already a page. So maybe this page should just redirect to there and we should add a note or something to that page about the alleged "history?"

"Protein poisoning" is literally just another word for "protein toxicity." And there's no evidence that "rabbit starvation" specifically is a thing. Eating only meat and then getting sick is, but that's already on Protein Toxicity under "Effects of a high protein diet."

2604:6000:150F:4A3E:6546:C762:189A:9EC3 (talk) 08:22, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Copyright infringment and original research

I am the author of the original work quoted in this section, which has recently been brought to my attention

See also

  " Clostridial necrotizing enteritis, a.k.a. pigbel, another lethal protein-related diet problem" 

absolute bogus: Clostridial necrotizing enteritis is caused by a bacterial toxin: it has nothing to do with a protein related diet, other than that the bacteria can live in meat

Summarizing: regarding rabbit Starvation, I really havent seen a single medical publication on it. th epublications one sees seem to all parrot eachother. Only eating Rabbits is the same as only eating proteins, a diet meant to cuase weight loss, coz one wil start burning body fat. Only eating protein is just as much a wrong diet choice as only eating fat or only eating sugar -- Ed:2 january 2015 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.159.130.241 (talk) 20:51, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

I have removed the text to which I hold copyright, permission was not granted for it to be reproduced under GFDL, the original article will be available online and archived at Bushcraftuk.com for public access but the copyright remains mine. I am however happy for a link to the work to be placed here.

This work is also original research, as far as I am able to ascertain my work is the first to comprehensively explain the cause of rabbit starvation and outline hyperammonaemia as the cause of death, As such the ‘original research’ rules of wikipedia may prevent it being included here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.159.119.88 (talk • contribs) 09:17, 2 August 2006

I'm not really sure why the text has been replaced again. This realy is in need of a rewrite. --Pappa 10:36, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Glorious Democratic People's Republic of Korea

Per this development, I think someone needs to bring this article to North Korea's attention.--Daveswagon 01:28, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't that just suck? "They're starving, Kim!" "Give them giant rabbits to eat." "Alright" (Some time later) "They're still starving!"--Planetary 09:28, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Possible mechanisms

"It has been observed that the human liver cannot safely metabolise much more than 221–301 g of protein per day (for an 80 kg/176 pound person)" - This fact isn't supported by the citation it references. The paper in question doesn't even contain the word liver. It does talk about renal problems, where it estimates 300g of protein per day for an 80kg person to be a safe upper limit, which I feel is an entirely different characterization than what has been written in the encyclopedia. David Hinkle (talk) 19:32, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

"Possible mechanisms: Lack of fats in the diet." That's not a mechanism, it's restating the problem, at least without an explanation of how a lack of fat would cause these symptoms (fat is not generally recognised as necessary). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Maltelauridsbrigge (talk • contribs) 17:31, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Er.. it would do you good to look up Essential fatty acid on this site. For humans, both omega-3 and omega-6 are essential. Rabbit meat may be deficient in either of those (can anyone confirm?). I hope you're not going for one of those kooky 'fat-free' diets? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.154.21.144 (talk) 16:10, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Also, "Rabbit meat is not limiting in any essential amino acids." has nothing to do with mechanisms. I am removing it --Jehan60188 (talk) 16:18, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Not so sure that an adult needs 3000 KILOcalories/day. That's what the article says. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.209.44.86 (talk) 02:47, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

It said a young male walking and hunting every day needs 3000 kilocarlories. I'm not certain that's right but its not all that unreasonable. Men typically need more calories than women. A sedentary adult, or a very mildly active adult, male or female, would almost never need that many calories, but a very active man, or an extremely active woman (think world class athletic training), might need that much or more, and the article does site a source for the information. twfowler (talk) 18:14, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Information about Vitamin A is contradictory - deficiency and excessive levels of the same vitamin are not possible. IMO the deficiency section should be removed, especially given the nature of the reference cited. Better research is needed to fix this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.129.210.2 (talk) 20:19, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Rabbits are not magical animals. Humans have survived on them for millennia. Kortoso (talk) 22:49, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Possible Reasons

As I understood from discussions in the paleodiet and paleofood groups, rabbit starvation is what the name "protein poisoning" says: an intoxication with excess nitrogen components which overload the excreting capacity of the kidneys.

Fat can deliver all calories the body requires except about 300kcal for the brain.

If no carbohydrastes are available and little fat -like in a pure meat diet, or a wild game diet in temperate regions- then nearly all calories must be derived from protein. This requires enormous amounts of muscle meat (like 1,5kg), since meat only has 20% protein and protein only gives 2.4 kcal/g protein. The degradation of amino acids to mere energy produces nitrogen waste (urea etc), the kidneys have to excrete. Their capacity is limited - so nitrogen components sum up and intoxicate the blood.

Sephansson did well and ejoyed 50%fat and 50% muscle. 4 weeks of rabbits only (2,0 kg give you 2400 kcal) - and you're dead 4 weeks of eating nothing (or only 200g lean rabbit) - won't harm you much

Paleodiet is here: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/paleodiet.html and paleofood is here: http://listserv.icors.org/archives/paleofood.html

regards

Amadeus S —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.238.25.161 (talk) 12:27, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

note: Paleo diet allows consumption of organs and animal fats, which I am sure you are aware. Consumption of the entire animal would yield a perfectly acceptable diet, though I would imagine certain nutrients would be in deficit depending on the animal. I just wanted to point out that eating the organs and brains provides sufficient calories from fats to sustain a 2000 Calorie diet with ease (though you would need more than one rabbit I'm sure)

Piepants (talk) 21:26, 11 April 2011 (UTC)Piepants

Original research

The section "possible mechanisms" looks like one big original research. The numerous references are from various dietary sources which provide various piese of dietary data, but no one discusses rabbit starvation and its mechanisms. 71.146.93.236 (talk) 21:48, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Historical examples

The author Mark Schatzker wrote that "nineteenth-century explorers in the Canadian arctic who attempted to live on wild rabbits .... ate huge portions of rabbit meat, and yet no matter how they stuffed themselves, they constantly fought a gnawing hunger .... By day ten, their guts would be so distended with rabbit meat that the bulge was visible through layers of clothing .... they would speak of a constant craving for fat." Can anyone find references to this or other specific instances of Rabbit starvation in the historical record? Mang (talk) 02:43, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

This whole thing is seeming apocryphal. Third-hand accounts from more than a century ago. You'd think there would be a better source.

Kortoso (talk) 22:46, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

References

Cure?

Is there any cure for Rabbit Starvation? How long it lasts this malnutrition? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.63.68.33 (talk) 18:27, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Medical cites???

For a desciption of a condition that is presented as a medical condition, there doesn't appear to be any citations from medical authorities. What we are left with are anecdotes. Kortoso (talk) 21:28, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Quote from Charles Darwin

The quote from Charles Darwin (in section "Observations") is flagged "[this quote needs a citation]". It's easy enough to find the quote in Google Books: "Voyage of the Beagle", 1845 edition (as reprinted in the Harvard Classics), volume 29 (this is apparently the volume number in the Harvard Classics, not Voyage of the Beagle), chapter VI, "September 17", page 123. I'd revise the article myself, but I don't know the right way to format a citation like that. DWorley (talk) 19:22, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

I added a citation to the Charles Darwin quote from a compilation text "From So Simple A Beginning" by Edward Wilson that i had on hand containing the Voyage of the Beagle by Charles Darwin. Aidanhodge (talk) 13:59, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

copyright redaction

I've placed a copyvio redaction tag here, to address the claims described above on this talk page, and visible on the page history. Although the original material does not seem to be online, the article was identified as "The Reality of Food in the Bush," by Stuart Goring, issue #2 of "Bushcraft" magazine, published by BushcraftUK, pg. 18. --Lockley (talk) 18:39, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

25% = 2.5g/kg

This is stated in the section Physiology, but wrong. I'm guessing it should be 250g/kg, but I'm on a phone and not 1000g/kg sure... 109.37.145.177 (talk) 20:45, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

 Done. Good catch. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 21:37, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

It can't be 250g/kg, because for an 80kg person that would mean a daily intake of 20000 grams of protein, which would be ~80000 calories. The source says "25% of energy requirements at approximately 2 to 2.5 g · kg−1 · d−1, corresponding to 176 g protein per day for an 80 kg individual". Using 2.2g/kg and an 80kg person you get to the 176g mentioned. 82.218.252.97 (talk) 18:59, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Removal of mechanism concerning hormonal regulation of urea cycle

I have removed 'Protein intakes above 35% of energy needs have also been shown to decrease testosterone and increase cortisol levels.[12] This is thought to be part of the body's attempt to upregulate the urea cycle, and increase nitrogen excretion.[12]'

This is currently only a hypothesis and there is no clinical evidence supporting this mechanism. Also, the study cited to support this is controversial and has been widely misquoted. There is an associated commentary article that explains this further - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10114259/

I am the author of both these articles, you may verify this by contacting the email address listed for the corresponding author on these papers.

I apologies if this seems high-handed, I just wish to ensure the public are not misled in terms of what the evidence shows. Joseph Whittaker 123 (talk) 09:58, 13 August 2023 (UTC)