Talk:Prince of Penzance

Of or of

Please discuss here before any further moves. Tigerboy1966  15:04, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

This is incorrect. The name of the horse is Prince Of Penzance with the capitalization. That is the standard naming of throughbreds.

From Names

name (of a Thoroughbred) Names of North American Thoroughbreds are registered by the Jockey Club. They can be no longer than 18 characters, including punctuation and spaces. The words the, and, by, for, in, and, a are usually—but not always— lowercase unless they are the first word in the name. For exact spelling, spacing, and capitalization, check Registered Thoroughbred Names book published by the Jockey Club or on the Jockey Club’s website, http://home.jockeyclub.com/.

From the Pedigree report as registered by the Australian Stud Book - [Prince Of Penzance] Brudder Andrusha (talk) 17:15, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Look at this lot, and I promise these aren't cherry-picked. BBC [1], The Guardian[2], The Age [3], Sydney Morning Herald [4], Daily Telegraph [5], Daily Mail [6], New Zealand Herald [7], Dominion Post [8], Daily Racing Form [9], CNN [10]. etc WP:Most common name. The Racing Post does go for the big "O", but the RP is a specialist publication. The Australian also goes for the big "O" but isn't consistent. I think it's a choice between what is technically correct and the English language as it is actually used. The old prescription/description issue, but I side with the descriptives.  Tigerboy1966  20:14, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

A lot of these articles are inconsistent. Why don't you want to use the registered name in the Stud Book? In fact every referenced article refers to the horse as Prince of Penzance and Prince Of Penzance - except for the registered name in the stud book. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 22:14, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Seems pretty clear: all the References we use for this article use the lower case "of". --GRuban (talk) 20:56, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Sadly, it's not. For unique names, TB breeders screw around with capitalization and spacing all the time. (Pioneerof the Nile, etc...) If the registration says it's a capital O, then we go with that; it it's lower case, we go with that. Alway ask, "is it Pot-8-Os or Potoooooooo? Montanabw^(talk) 20:58, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Who is "we"? Certainly not "we, Wikipedia". WP:NAME is quite clear "Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject." The registration may be the official name, but the preponderance of the sources guides us. The classic examples of popular names governing official ones in article titles William Jefferson Clinton -> Bill Clinton, James Earl Carter -> Jimmy Carter, etc. --GRuban (talk) 21:09, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Each source is in the article is inconsistent in the name of the horse. Interesting that you use names of human beings. The names of horses are quite exact IMO. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 22:34, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

I think that's a bit of a red herring, or a red potato MontanaBW. If owners register the horse's name with an odd spelling (which Triple Crown winner could I be thinking of) that's one thing: this is more an issue of typography and how it is generally rendered in the available sources. Tigerboy1966  21:14, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

All the references used in this article do NOT use the lowercase 'of'. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 22:17, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

I should point out that racehorse article tend to be little "o". Declaration of War (horse), Duke of Marmalade, Ruler of the World, Rite of Passage (horse), but we also have War Of Attrition (horse) and some others. Tigerboy1966  21:23, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Official sources are more important than how they are reported in the media. Gust Of Wind also ran in the race. If popular names were so korrekt then American Pharoah would be American Pharaoh, But I don't see anyone changing the misspelling. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 22:14, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Firstly this is an issue of typography, not spelling. Second I'm not sure if "Official sources are more important than how they are reported in the media". If the birth certificate says "James Bartholomew" but the media says "Bart" we go with Bart. See also will.i.am.  Tigerboy1966  22:21, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

I disagree that it is merely a typography issue. The horse has a registered name which is how the owners name it. It is EXACT! Brudder Andrusha (talk) 22:27, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Just to loop back a little what has the "Names of North American Thoroughbreds" reference got to do with a horse bred in NZ? Tigerboy1966  22:40, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

And I've just noticed that the "Australian Stud Book" reference is nothing of the sort- it's a link to the Racing NSW website and gives the name as "Prince Of Penzance (NZ)". Tigerboy1966  22:42, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

If you had a look a bit closer then you would see that its Racing NSW is using equineline.com - the same source that you referenced for the pedigree. What is even more bogus is removing the {{inconsistent}} tag while having references that use both names and not acknowledging the discrepancy. Also login into Racing Australia if you want the Australian Stud Registry. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 02:24, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, I have no position as to this horse because I don't have access to Jockey Club databases, but I think the rule priority would be the same as humans 1) Owners' current "official" (will.i.am) name for the horse, or name under which he became famous (if different). e.g. Totilas, Black Allan 2) Official ("legal") name of the horse as it appears on registration documents. (for the same horses, Moorland's Totilas, Allen F-1) 3) Then, absent other evidence, how it appears in 3rd party RS. Montanabw^(talk) 23:22, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Could I suggest a compromise where we leave the title as it is but have a sentence in the lede along the lines of "While the horse's name is popularly/usually rendered as PoP, a strict interpretation of the rules for naming horses would suggest that POP is/may be more correct."+ref  Tigerboy1966  08:46, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

I could live with that. --GRuban (talk) 00:15, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

FWIW, The Blood-Horse capitalizes "Of" :[11], I'd suggest we have a discrepancy between the mainstream press and the specialist press. I also don't really care that much either way... but we may want to take this general question to the WP horse racing board, it may come up again. Montanabw^(talk) 06:06, 6 November 2015 (UTC)