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Created 2021 Road to the Kentucky DerbyEdit

Can regulars start going through and adding wikilinks, correcting my mistakes and additional refs in the new 2021 Road to the Kentucky Derby? Its about this time we start getting interested with 6 months to go. Cheers! Brudder Andrusha (talk) 22:43, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Brudder Andrusha, I've done a couple of bits around the European Road section today. --Bcp67 (talk) 07:58, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
I took a quick look too. I couldn't find a formal announcement from Churchill Downs for the new year so I added a note. Jlvsclrk (talk) 00:10, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

I've been doing some minor updates on this page and came across from the main Prep races that the Jeff Ruby Stakes (Spiral Stakes) has had the qualification points raised to Championship series - Second Leg on par with main Derbies. I'm looking for any other reference before modifying this in the article, but this doesn't surprise me that Churchill Downs Inc. made a nice deal with Turfway Park due to the change of dates last year with Covid-19 problems. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 15:07, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

Category ?Edit

Do we really want this category?
Category:Filmed deaths of animals
Stretchrunner (talk) 22:59, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Weeeelllll... there is the broader category Category:Filmed deaths. I suppose you could run it up the flagpole at categories for deletion and see what happens… I must say I won’t take a position, I’ll just get my popcorn and watch the show... Montanabw(talk) 19:46, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Naming convention for sports stadiaEdit

A request for comment is open regarding the use of parenthetical disambiguation in relation to articles on sports stadia here: Wikipedia talk:Article titles#RfC Naming convention for sports stadia. Input is welcome. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 20:34, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Female horse ownersEdit

I stumbled across a conversation between @Montanabw: and @Stretchrunner: that I intruded upon believing that the discussion should included to all who participate on this Project. Stretchrunner has the belief that when he creates, updates, or just edit a horse race table, if possible I do my best to find and replace Owner: Mrs. John Doe with showing only HER name. It's very hard to find a female first name but if one gets lucky and does, it can take many hours. I disagree with this approach given that changing the name from what was registered when the horse won the event. If the reference (especially in the period when women were not allowed to be owners) given indicates Mrs. Joe Brown or some pseudonym like when Merman who won the 1900 Ascot Gold Cup the name should stay. If the horse is registered to be owned for example by Mrs. John Magnier then that is what should be in the table. The link can go to who the person is but the registered name is given per the reference (WP:V). Opening this up for discussion. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 11:21, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

The name should match the source cited. If the source says "Mrs. Percy Highbottom" instead of "Lola Highbottom" then that is what should be in the box. You would have to cite another source confirming the given name of the female owner if the original literature did not report it (which is, of course, more work). Froggerlaura ribbit 21:05, 16 February 2021 (UTC).
If the woman has a Wikipedia article, a piped link should be used to the correct name. If there is a known name, I see no problem with adding a parenthetical that identifies who they are if sourced. While it is true that we need to faithfully site to registration documents, press reports may have used different styles than did the Jockey Club, so we do have to check... when possible, women should not be treated as mere appendages of their husbands, even if that’s what they did 100 years ago. Similarly, there may be an Argument to do the same for people whose name on the registration records are abbreviated, for example, “J.B. Haggin”, who is James Ben Ali Haggin. Montanabw(talk) 19:40, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Admin help for requested move: Royal Heroine Mile Stakes -> Royal Heroine StakesEdit

I have updated this article but I do not have admin privileges to move Royal Heroine Mile Stakes to Royal Heroine Stakes due to an existing REDIRECT. The event has been run as the Royal Heroine Stakes since 2014. An uncontested technical move has been requested. Can someone with admin privileges perform this move? Brudder Andrusha (talk) 16:39, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

COMPLETED. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 18:27, 17 March 2021 (UTC)


Request for Comment on SSN at WP:Notability (sports)Edit

There is a discussion on SSN (sport specific guidelines) at RFC on Notability (sports) policy and reliability issues. Feel free to go there and post your comments. Cassiopeia(talk) 00:58, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Proposed change in sports notability policyEdit

A proposal is pending that would prohibit the creation of sports biographies unless supported by "substantial coverage in at least one non-routine source". In other words, articles supported solely by statistical databases would not be permitted, and at least one example of WP:SIGCOV would be required to be included before an article could be created. Also, article creation based on Wikiproject Guidelines would be curtailed. If you have views on this proposal, one way or the other, you can express those views at Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports)#Fram's revised proposal. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:02, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Oh my, I created the horse racing SNGs, this is a concern for us. That said, having more than just a database is definitely needed. Montanabw(talk) 22:40, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
Maybe its a good time to review this Project's SIG and tighten any loopholes. I know we had some issues with a couple of horses that had articles created that lacked significant notability in the past, but some of the issues point out in the proposals thread are looking for massive deletes.Brudder Andrusha (talk) 02:53, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Grand National Winners and CleanupEdit

Hey all, I'm new to the site but have created a few pages for Grand National Winners who haven't got one yet and am hoping to make one for them all. I've also started going through the winners and races and standardising them (especially infoboxes, flag icons, layout) as well as adding a Grand National Record table and Pedigree for each winning horse.

The pages I've made:

Looking for feedback, thanks!


Lankyant (talk) 18:21, 11 April 2021 (UTC)


Is it at all possible to add a 'latest race' link at the bottom of the infobox on the Grand National main page? Example being London Marathon. Think it would be handy but can't work out how to do it. Should also be added to Kentucky Derby.

Lankyant (talk) 02:30, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Is there a go to tool to design racing silks? Would like to get to work on adding some to add to the Grand National races if it's not too difficult.

Lankyant (talk) 00:15, 14April 2021 (UTC)

pinging Tigerboy1966, JockeyColours and Bcp67 who work in this area. Please be careful about making mass changes to “standardize”articles without obtaining consensus. You have some good ideas but let’s see them in practice. Montanabw(talk) 01:50, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks I will do, and when I say standardise I mean more just making sure odds and flagicons are listed the same style in every race as well as adding conditions and starting prices that were missing to the infoboxes. So no major things or reworks :)

User: Lankyant 02:03, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Let me know which silks (which years?) you need and I will happily generate if they don't exist already JockeyColours (talk) 07:48, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm not keen on the use of flag icons on the Grand National articles. The people and horses mentioned aren't "representing" a country, and MOS:INFOBOXFLAG advises against it as well.--Bcp67 (talk) 09:34, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
And I'm sorry Lankyant if it sounds like I'm objecting to everything, but do we need a Grand National record table for every winner's article? In some cases the horse only ran once in the race. A full table of races might be useful, but we don't see that on many horse articles and it would be very difficult to source in any case.--Bcp67 (talk) 09:44, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
More positively, welcome to the project - there aren't many of us here, but (hopefully!) we're a co-operative group and I'd say the standard of the horse racing articles is quite good in general. An article for every Grand National is a good target to aim for. --Bcp67 (talk) 09:44, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the welcome! In terms of flags I wanted to sort it out because it was only sporadically done and seemed weird and I think it's fine because aren't they seen as 'Irish winners' and 'British trained'? But I agree they aren't entirely necessary I just wasn't liking that they were used differently across different articles.

And I also agree with the record tables for 1 race horses but I saw it more as a quick reference point for people to look at instead of digging into the meat of an article it gives a quick idea of the result but if you dislike I'm happy to delete.

But yes I definitely think that we should aim for a page for each winner.

And yes, I had way too much free time lately so seemed like this would be a useful way to spend it!

[User:Lankyant] 14:04, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Hey JockeyColours, sorry I didn't see your reply! That would be great and much appreciated. I will try and get something together obviously the full list for races would be grand especially for 2021 but that's a lot of work but in terms of winners we have nothing it seems pre 2000 so I know that takes some research which I will try and put together. But for now we need Bobbyjo 1999 -red top with gold sleeves. gold Lorraine cross on centre with green cap with gold stripes.

But instead of full race cards I'd like to prioritise the top 4 finishers from 2004 to 2013 and 2015, 2016, 2017 to make a place table with as we only have the winning colours currently.

Thank you!

User:Lankyant 02:33 15 April 2021

Bob Baffert doping mentionEdit

I noticed on the Bob Baffert article that there is no mention of any of the numerous doping issues over the past few years. I think they should be mentioned. Best, Thriley (talk) 16:57, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

added a bit. whole article needs some tinkering, which I'll done when I'm feeling a little more... charitable. Jlvsclrk (talk) 21:26, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Ideas for British races winners listsEdit

I've experimented with adding a couple of new columns to the winners lists, one to show the race status for each year, and the other to link the Racing Post reference specifically to the year. I've used one of this week's races as a trial, the Westow Stakes. If you're interested, could you have a look please and give your thoughts there as to whether it's a good idea, looks useful etc. Thanks, --Bcp67 (talk) 11:36, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't know anything about English law regarding Thoroughbred racing. However in the U.S. there is only one reference needed for the race. We do not need a reference for each individual race. Most of what I see on Wiki only goes back to 1976 in the U.S. and in England to 1988. The reason is that U.S. horse racing and casinos etc. all fall under the jurisdiction of state gambling laws and the racetrack proprietor is solely responsible, and liable for, the content of its published information on each race. Hence, all a Wiki article on the Whatsitsname Stakes needs is a link to that page (e.g the NYRA) or a track's media guide. Other than NYRA tracks and Del Mar etc, that are owned by a state government, when the Wiki article refers to something about the race or a participant etc. that is not on the racetrack's info, then we need to insert a reliable attribution. If the track does not publish the info (and most are now dropping their media guides), and has not passed it to Equibase Co, LLC as their only legal representative, then Wioukipedia needs reliable attributions. Stretchrunner II (talk) 00:46, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
Where is your source that only one reference for a race is needed? That is poor for an article to only have one sourced reference that is coming from the club that hosts the race. As I have pointed out in the past some of the information in the Media Guides is wrong and incomplete. Also this is Wikipedia with our own criteria to provide information that appropriately WP:V and not a duplicate for what is published by some track's (some holding company) media guide. Obviously you do not think much of the updates to events that I have been doing. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 00:32, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
We don't have any single source for British or Irish race results or history - the source for race results since 1988 is usually the Racing Post database, which began that year. Before that it's usually printed sources like newspapers or books. The Racing Post refs are all added in the References sections of race articles at the moment but many races have been tagged as needing inline citations, so one of the ideas of my experiment is to put the RP ref on the table on the same line as the race itself. In addition to the above two ideas, I'm also starting to add winning owners to Group 2 race tables, but that's a longer project. --Bcp67 (talk) 10:09, 12 May 2021 (UTC)
@Bcp67: My only query about the article Westow Stakes does not deal with the table format that you are trying to improve but whether the event falls under WP:GNG or our own project definitions of what deserves an article. I know that sometimes folks like to create an article about a horse that has not won a Grade I and then the article has to been deleted. Maybe the project should review this for events. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 00:51, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
Hi there, I think listed stakes meet notability on both sides of the Atlantic, although they don't all need articles. For example, the El Camino Real Derby is "only" a listed stakes, but its very much in the news today because of Rombauer. Jlvsclrk (talk) 00:57, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
According to our project notability acceptance of an event which has once been a Graded event such as the El Camino Real Derby even though it is Listed now is acceptable since historically it meets the guidelines that the project accepts. However, if the event has only achieved Listed status then I do not see why the event should have an article. There is a cut off point similar to notability of horse and in other sports such as football (players who have not played for professional clubs or teams that have not played in professional leagues). For example why does the Listed Hot Springs Stakes which was created earlier this year have an article and the Listed Gold Fever Stakes at Belmont Park does not? IMO according to our own cutoff point the Hot Springs Stakes should be deleted.Brudder Andrusha (talk) 10:48, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
I like the format - it's great to have a link to the chart available if you want to do more research, and its cool that you've got the Racing Post template that doesn't take up all the space that a full ref does. (As an aside, I bet we could do the same for Equibase charts since the URL link is always a code for the racetrack, the date and race number.) For European racing, I don't think you need all the columns that we might include in North America, like distance, because they don't change as much. I get the impression that the purse isn't nearly as important as well. A major difference is we almost always show the owner in addition to the trainer and jockey.
@Bcp67: Sorry for joining this discussion so late. I like the idea (especially if it leads to less warnings about lack of references), but I don't like the redundancy of the data displayed in the Ref column as 99.9% of the time it will be a repeat of the year specified in column 1 (very occasionally a NH race can take place twice in the same calendar year). My preference would be for the RP reference to be used for displaying the Year in column 1, alternatively (via a slightly different RP template) the Ref column could provide (small) added value by displaying the full date on which the race took place. JockeyColours (talk)

Premio Presidente della RepubblicaEdit

Dear WikiProject Horse racing. I was thinking about translating the (newly created) Italian wikipage it:Premio Presidente della Repubblica which is about a prestigious prize of the prestigious scientific institution Lincei National Academy (given every year by the Italian president). I was surprised to see that the English page is about horse racing. I'm not the right person that can evaluate the notability of that (horse racing) page. Can you please verify that the existing page meets the notability criteria? Despite the name, it doesn't seem connected to the Italian institutions. --SimoneD89 (talk) 18:24, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

@SimoneD89: The event in question is currently a Group II event and was once a Group I event and I would assume one of the more prestigious horse races in Italy which according to this Horse Racing Project is well within the WP:GNG guidelines to have an article about it. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 23:34, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
As noted above, the article is about a notable horse race (granted far more notable in the past than at present). We could move it to XXXX (horse race) or add an about template to link to XXXX (prize), or create a DAB page that links to both. Whatever works. Jlvsclrk (talk) 01:06, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
Thank you very much for your comments. I think it is a good idea to rename the article to XXX (horse racing), because in Italian premio is prize and I've heard only gran premio (grands prix/grand prizes) connected to racing. It is an unfortunate name because the republic president doesn't seem to be involved and also it doesn't seem to be connected with the Italian institutions. I'm really surprised that one can give such a name to something that is not directly organized or connected to the state. I will name the Lincei prize article XXX (prize) and I will let you know when the article is created. --SimoneD89 (talk) 06:18, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
@SimoneD89: A move have been made for the horse race article and a redirect disambiguation page now holds that title - Premio Presidente della Repubblica Brudder Andrusha (talk) 11:11, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
Thank you for your availability. --SimoneD89 (talk) 11:18, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

For information purposes: I posted the following to User talk:Onel5969Edit

Your edit : Broadway Stakes (NYB) moved to draftspace

All Thoroughbred racing in the United States is governed by state gambling laws. Hence, there is only one legal source for referencing those races, that being the racetrack proprietor who holds the gambling license. In the case of the Broadway Stakes, it is owned by the New York Racing Association (NYRA) and all information contained in the Wikipedia article on the Broadway Stakes is derived from the referenced NYRA. Note that in this case the NYRA is a government entity owned by the State of New York. In articles where there might be information not covered by the track owner, i.e. comments about the events during the race that the jockey moved too early etc., or a comment that the horse had not run for two months due to an injury, or the winner lost for the first time in four starts, and more. Those comments come from the media and are referenced at Wikipedia to reputable sources such as the Daily Racing Form, Thoroughbred Daily News, the New York Times, Blood-horse magazine and the like. Further, Equibase Co., LLC is an official source having been authorized as such by racetrack owners plus by licensed breeders for pedigree records. However, Equibase Co., LLC only document races back to 1976 and in a great many cases the races created at Wikipedia go way past that to times as early as 1860. Note too, there are defunct/discontinued races from long ago, many of which are because the racetrack closed or were forced to close through state anti-gambling legislation such as the Hart-Agnew Law. For these historically important Wikipedia articles, we use very reliable sources as references. I hope this helps but I think it would be a lot easier for you and others who work hard to ensure quality for Wikipedia but who don't have in-depth expertise on this particular subject to leave a question on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Horse racing where someone knowledgeable will certainly answer it. Kindly reverse your edit. Thanks. Stretchrunner II (talk) 20:30, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

@Onel5969:IMO, does Broadway Stakes (NYB) even qualify under WP:GNG ? Its not a graded event and it is merely restricted to NY breds. IMO this article should be deleted or not even started. Under our own project criteria this article is dubious from the start. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 14:07, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Brudder Andrusha, that was one of the two primary reasons I moved it to draft. First, it is woefully undersourced wholly by primary sources. Second, was the notability issue. I'm just slogging through my NPP work and haven't yet responded to yesterday's talk page questions, so this will stand as my response. However, as per draftify, if the process is contested, regardless of its merit, the draft should be returned to mainspace, which I will do shortly. I would definitely vote delete at an AfD, as I can't find enough in-depth coverage to show it passes WP:GNG. And thanks for the ping, I was unaware of this discussion. Onel5969 TT me 14:36, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Onel5969, I totally agree with your response about the formation and content and your direction of questioning the existence of this article. Once the article is live, tag it with an AfD and we'll go from there. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 15:00, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
@Onel5969:, Project Members: an AfD has been tagged for Broadway Stakes (NYB). Brudder Andrusha (talk) 10:23, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
Note: This discussion has been included in the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Broadway Stakes (NYB). Brudder Andrusha (talk) 10:19, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Update: - Article was deleted. This brings up the question why there is a category of Category:Restricted stakes races in the United States which now has one less entry at 30, and whether the events in this category would qualify under WP:NHORSERACING. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 14:31, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

2021 Kentucky Derby and related articlesEdit

Hi all. Can I ask for help reviewing any and all pages related to the 2021 Kentucky Derby. Although the second sample for Medina Spirit was also positive, he has NOT yet been disqualified. That decision will be made by the Kentucky Horse Racing Commission, which will deliberate at its own sweet pace. (For reference, it took four years before Dancer's Image DQ was officially official.) Folks want to jump ahead of the process though and change the winner. I'm updating as I come across stuff. Oh, and the ban of Baffert at Churchill Downs is official, for now, but we don't yet know to what extent it will be followed at other tracks. Bloodhorse has lots of stuff. I'm using the WaPo article for now, and I expect NYT will have some great stuff since they broke the story on Justify's positive. Jlvsclrk (talk) 00:47, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

I think the admins of our project should lock on 2021 Kentucky Derby, Medina Spirit and Bob Baffert until things settle down. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 00:03, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
As of now, the Derby and Medina Spirit’s articles look mostly OK to me, but if they turn into an editor timesink, RPP could still be requested (I’m not an admin, dang.). Baffert’s article has pending changes protection on it as of today, but someone was doing a bit of a POV hatchet job on the piece, and there were a lot of new and IP edits, so I requested temporary semi-protection to slow things down a but more…I also toned down some of the material to meet NPOV and address recentism. We had a similar problem with Doug O’Neill a few years ago, these drug scandals just need to stick to BLP and usually it all shakes out appropriately in the long run. Montanabw(talk) 07:08, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

John Rickman (broadcaster)Edit

Hi all. I don’t normally create articles in this area, but in researching a different topic, I came across John Rickman the longtime broadcaster journalist of British horse races and created a quick stub. The article is currently an orphan. Best.4meter4 (talk) 18:05, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, I've managed to find a mention of him in the ITV Seven article and linked. Famous for doffing his trilby hat to the viewers! --Bcp67 (talk) 20:20, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
No, thank you.4meter4 (talk) 21:13, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

AfD created for Hot Rod CharlieEdit

An Afd has been entered for the article about Hot Rod Charlie. Hot Rod Charlie has only won a Grade II event. IMO, a Grade I victory is a minimum to meet the criteria to have an article meeting the project requirements for WP:N and WP:GNG. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 23:41, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hot Rod Charlie. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 10:20, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
Actually Hot Rod Charlie meets GNG, there is no end of coverage of independent and secondary, reliable sourced articles out there for the horse. He does not require any help from the SNG to meet notability. As you all know, no horse needs to win a Grade I race to obtain notability for GNG. However, using SNG is another way a horse may obtain notability, as in the case of winning GI, or multiple significant GII/GIII grade/group races. There are also the hall of fames and such in the SNG. Obviously, if we applied GI as mandatory to GNG, there would be 100s or 1000s of existing articles in violation. dawnleelynn(talk) 21:49, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
Dawn, I saw the links. Frankly, they are a mess. You have ones running together making it hard work to look at them. Some I did look at are routine race coverage. BTW, Bleacherreport isn't acceptable. Please link up the run on links....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 00:14, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
WilliamJE I appreciate your time. The bullets seemed to work fine in my browser so it's strange. I will use a different method though. Some really good links also reside in the article itself. Thanks for letting me know about Bleacherreport. I will look at the links, maybe remove some and add others. Your suggestions are very good. I should be able to get to this tonight. Thanks! 00:23, 7 June 2021 (UTC)dawnleelynn(talk)
WilliamJE The article has been updated.dawnleelynn(talk) 03:18, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Might be good for more folks here to comment over there. It’s a useful discussion of both the differences between GNG and SNG (which is a frequent discussion at AfD across multiple topics) and useful to us to help form a consensus for future reference. One thing that periodically has me scratching my head in the past is how to handle notability of those longstanding, historic Derby preps like the Louisiana Derby that may have at times been GI or the equivalent, but aren’t at the moment. Montanabw(talk) 06:26, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
Good point. "Grade I" can be a tricky criteria because the grading looks at past runnings and doesn't reflect the quality of the current year's field. It does seem odd that we'd give Super Stock an automatic notability pass for having won an exceptionally weak Arkansas Derby, but have trouble with Hot Rod Charlie, who won what was one of the strongest preps of the season (the top 3 in Louisiana were in the top 6 of the Derby, and that doesn't even count Mandaloun, who threw a clunker in Louisiana). Right now, Hot Rod Charlie is matching up favourably with where Gun Runner was at the same point in the season (won Louisina Derby, placed in the KD and then had a great performance in June). We waited though for Gun Runner until he turned into a monster at age four. I could argue that almost all of the coverage that includes Hot Rod Charlie is related to the races and not the horse in particular. That was why I originally agreed that the article should be deleted. Now I'm leaning the other way, especially given the Beyer assigned to him from the Belmont (107 - higher than American Pharoah) and the praise for him hanging on despite the torrid pace. (Andy Serling called it the best losing effort in New York since Seattle Slew lost to Exceller - praise indeed). So, yeah. Tough call. Jlvsclrk (talk) 20:30, 8 June 2021 (UTC)
I would love to have a horse like Hot Rod Charlie in my stable but with regards what has been asked of us in the past as Wikipedia contributors is to give feedback within the project and provide input and barnstorm with other contributors as to what is acceptable and what is not. I've been involved with WP:FOOTY and that project had serious discussions withing its project to setup the WP:SNG for WP:NFOOTY. That project like other sports projects had to deal with an abundance of contributors that would create dubious articles that would at times annoy the admins and spark off a continuous stream of AfD. They had to specifically determine the criteria of what was an allowable article and what was not. The same was asked of our project that contributors were asked what would be a manageable entry so that articles could withstand the onslaught of questionable actions. No different with this article as the temptation of WP:RECENT is placed asunder while acceptance of an arguable exception is promoted. I think patience would be a virtue with this article but some folks think that just because there is an article on the web about a horse and his performance - IMO that does not make him notable even though you can Google and find many hits. The criteria that was set up by the members of this project for the SNG and decided what is the minimum criteria for an article should stand and be accepted. The changes then should be pointed at WP:NHORSERACING whether exceptions should clearly be added which would accommodate situations such as with Hot Rod Charlie where his performance in US Classic Races this year can been a reason for inclusion. As to the grading of events - that is something we must accept from the TOBA's American Graded Stakes Committee and not for us to judge what is good one year and not another. Its great discussion but to me its off tangent when we clearly have our guidelines. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 14:24, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
Hi, just to be clear, WP:NOTE specifies a topic is presumed to merit an article by meeting the WP:GNG or the criteria below outlined below or in the related subject-specific notability guideline (SNG). In this case, the WP:SPORT guideline applies, which states, ""If the article does meet the criteria set forth below, then it is likely that sufficient sources exist to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article. Failing to meet the criteria in this guideline means that notability will need to be established in other ways (for example, the general notability guideline, or other, topic-specific, notability guidelines)."
Please note that the failure to meet these criteria does not mean an article must be deleted; conversely, meeting of any of these criteria does not mean that an article must be kept."
So we have here the direct content that says failure to meet the Horseracing SNG does not mean an article must be deleted. It also states we can try to meet GNG. Regarding WP:RECENT, of the three Triple Crown races, for which there were 25 horses who ran in the combined three races, only seven articles were created. That doesn't sound like an abundance.
Funny what you said about "does not make him notable even though you can Google and find many hits." If I can't Google to find sources, how do you suggest that I find sources, btw? You know I don't just do a search and throw sites in here in five minutes. It takes time because I do research and learn about the horse and the sites. Last of all, I guess I need to provide the sources again--I mean just the ones that document that he was covered prior to the TC races. And also I am providing three sources wherein the trainer talks about his potentially racing Charlie in one of three upcoming races in the next couple months. Even though the GNG says proof of future notability is not required.
Prior to May 1, 2021:
Early references:
Breeders Cup
Lousiana Derby
Santa Anita Park
Future races:
3Also, I spent much time fixing up his article. dawnleelynn(talk) 23:39, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

Horse races - NotabilityEdit

Wikipedia:Article deleted/Broadway Stakes (NYB)Edit

This article was put up for deletion by WikiProject Horse racing member User:Brudder Andrusha who stated the following as their reasoning:

The article is about an event that fails WP:GNG for the Wikipedia:WikiWikiProject Horse racing. Under project guidelines the event should be at a minimum be graded. This event is a non-graded restricted race which lacks notability. (talk) 11:40, 3 June 2021 (UTC)


While I may strongly disagree with User:Brudder Andrusa that Thoroughbred race articles at Wikipedia should be at a minimum be graded which eliminates all Listed, Restricted, Ungraded, and Black type stakes races, I respect the opinions of the WikiProject Horse racing members who did not object to the deletion of the Broadway Stakes (NYB) as the members were adhering to the WikiProject guidelines.

Over and above the Non-graded stakes races, there are no Graded stakes races in North America prior to 1973 and prior to 1971 for British & Irish races so this problem will have to be dealt with. Deleting the Listed, Restricted, Ungraded/Black type races represents a massive job. And, these required race deletions will have a profound effect on a multitude of other Wikipedia articles including those for jockeys, trainers, and owners. I do not know how this very difficult deleting situation should be organized in the context of "the event should be at a minimum be graded" policy.

Regarding articles for horses User:Brudder Andrusha has also stated: "IMO, a Grade I victory is a minimum to meet the criteria to have an article meeting the project requirements for WP:N and WP:GNG.

I, and obviously the industry itself, believe State/Province-bred races are a very important and vital part of Thoroughbred racing as are a number of ungraded/Black type stakes. My view is shared by many other editors at Wikipedia as evidenced by the volume of those types of articles they have created or contributed to which includes Brudder Andrusha' substantial edits and races. (e.g. Charles Town Oaks, Harlan's Holiday Stakes, Parx Dash Stakes and others). Although WikiProject's deletion policy will have enormous consequences for Wikipedia we nevertheless have to accept that the Broadway Stakes (NYB) article had to be deleted as User:Brudder Andrusha's position is that the article's deletion is enunciated in the WikiProject's established guideline and was done through the due process Wikipedia stipulates for article deletions.

There are many more such races in Wikipedia for Europe that don't meet the WikiProject guidelines and we will need a number of volunteers to help prepare them for the deletion process. There are Wikipedia articles List of British flat horse races#Other races and List of Irish flat horse races#Other races as follows, all of which will have be deleted in order to meet the WikiProject's guideline.

Similarly, there are Australian listed races like the G A Towton Cup that will have to be deleted. I could not find a list.

Long lists of articles
Month Race Name Racecourse Status Distance Age/Sex 2021 winner
March Patton Stakes Dundalk Listed 1m 3yo My Generation
March Devoy Stakes Naas Listed 1m 4yo+ Broome
April Cork Stakes Cork Listed 6f 3yo+ Laugh A Minute
April Noblesse Stakes Leopardstown Listed 1m 4f 4yo+ f Moll
April Leopardstown 2,000 Guineas Trial Stakes Leopardstown Listed 7f 3yo Poetic Flare
April Heritage Stakes Leopardstown Listed 1m 4yo+ Lope Y Fernandez
April Committed Stakes Navan Listed 5f 164y 3yo Measure of Magic
April Salsabil Stakes Navan Listed 1m 2f 3yo f Rocky Sky
April Woodlands Stakes Naas Listed 5f 3yo+ Mooneista
April Victor McCalmont Memorial Stakes Gowran Park Listed 1m 1f 100y 3yo+ f Too Soon To Panic
May Polonia Stakes Naas Listed 5½f 3yo+ f Measure of Magic
May Vintage Tipple Stakes Gowran Park Listed 1m 6f 4yo+ f Mighty Blue
May First Flier Stakes Curragh Listed 5f 2yo Castle Star
May Tetrarch Stakes Curragh Listed 7f 3yo Lunar Space
May Saval Beg Stakes Leopardstown Listed 1m 6f 4yo+ Emperor of the Sun
May Sole Power Sprint Stakes Curragh Listed 5f 4yo+ Logo Hunter
May Yeats Stakes Navan Listed 1m 5f 3yo Sir Lucan
May Rochestown Stakes Naas Listed 6f 2yo
May Owenstown Stud Stakes Naas Listed 7f 3yo+ Snapraeterea
May Marble Hill Stakes Curragh Listed 6f 2yo Castle Star
June Orby Stakes Curragh Listed 1m 2f 3yo+ Reve De Vol
June Nijinsky Stakes Leopardstown Listed 1m 4f 3yo Fernando Vichi
June Glencairn Stakes Leopardstown Listed 1m 3yo+ Magnanimous
June Midsummer Sprint Stakes Cork Listed 5f 3yo+ Logo Hunter
June Naas Oaks Trial Naas Listed 1m 2f 3yo f
June Celebration Stakes Curragh Listed 1m 3yo+
June Belgrave Stakes Curragh Listed 6f 3yo+
June Ulster Derby Down Royal Handicap 1m 4f 190y 3yo+
July Her Majesty's Plate Down Royal Listed 1m 6f 4yo+
July Lenebane Stakes Roscommon Listed 1m 4f 3yo+
July Tipperary Stakes Tipperary Listed 5f 2yo
July Cairn Rouge Stakes Killarney Listed 1m 100y 3yo+ f
July Sweet Mimosa Stakes Naas Listed 6f 3yo+ f
July Vinnie Roe Stakes Naas Listed 1m 6f 3yo
July Corrib Fillies Stakes Galway Listed 7f 3yo+ f
August Platinum Stakes Cork Listed 1m 3yo+
August El Gran Senor Stakes Tipperary Listed 7f 100y 2yo
August Abergwaun Stakes Tipperary Listed 5f 3yo+
August Hurry Harriet Stakes Gowran Park Listed 1m 1f 100y 3yo+ f
August Ruby Stakes Killarney Listed 1m 100y 3yo+
August Curragh Stakes Curragh Listed 5f 2yo
September Oyster Stakes Galway Listed 1m 4f 3yo+ f
September Listowel Stakes Listowel Listed 1m 1f 3yo+
September Ingabelle Stakes Leopardstown Listed 7f 2yo
September Blenheim Stakes Fairyhouse Listed 6f 2yo
October Martin Molony Stakes Limerick Listed 1m 4f 110y 4yo+
October Star Appeal Stakes Dundalk Listed 7f 2yo
October Finale Stakes Curragh Listed 1m 4f 3yo+
October Staffordstown Stud Stakes Curragh Listed 1m 2yo f
October Testimonial Stakes Curragh Listed 6f 3yo+
October Legacy Stakes Navan Listed 5f 182y 2yo
October Carlingford Stakes Dundalk Listed 1m 2f 150y 3yo+
October Navigation Stakes Cork Listed 1m 100y 3yo+
October Bluebell Stakes Naas Listed 1m 4f 3yo+ f
October Garnet Stakes Naas Listed 1m 3yo+ f
October Mercury Stakes Dundalk Listed 5f 2yo+
October Trigo Stakes Leopardstown Listed 1m 2f 3yo+
October Knockaire Stakes Leopardstown Listed 7f 3yo+
October Cooley Fillies Stakes Dundalk Listed 1m 3yo+ f

Ireland:

Month Race Name Racecourse Status Distance Age/Sex 2021 winner
February Kachy Stakes Lingfield Listed 6f 1y 4yo+ Exalted Angel
February Winter Derby Trial Lingfield Listed 1m 2f 4yo+ Bangkok
February Hever Sprint Stakes Lingfield Listed 5f 6y 4yo+ Lord Riddiford
March Road to the Kentucky Derby Conditions Stakes Kempton Conditions 1m 3yo Highland Avenue
March Spring Cup Lingfield Listed 7f 1y 3yo Apollo One
March Lady Wulfruna Stakes Wolverhampton Listed 7f 36y 4yo+ Mums Tipple
March Brocklesby Stakes Doncaster Conditions 5f 3y 2yo Chipotle
March Doncaster Mile Stakes Doncaster Listed 1m 4yo+ Top Rank
March Cammidge Trophy Doncaster Listed 6f 2y 3yo+ Royal Commando
March Magnolia Stakes Kempton Park Listed 1m 2f 4yo+ Global Giant
April Cardinal Stakes Chelmsford City Conditions 1m 3yo Fundamental
April Burradon Stakes Newcastle Listed 1m 5y 3yo Megallan
April Snowdrop Fillies' Stakes Kempton Park Listed 1m 4yo+ f Lavender's Blue
April Barry Hills Further Flight Stakes Nottingham Listed 1m 6f 4yo+ Sir Ron Priestley
April Feilden Stakes Newmarket Listed 1m 1f 3yo Highland Avenue
April Lansdown Fillies' Stakes Bath Listed 5f 10y 3yo+ f Declaring Love
April Blue Riband Trial Stakes Epsom Listed 1m 2f 17y 3yo Wirko
April King Richard III Stakes Leicester Listed 7f 4yo+ Pogo
April Nottinghamshire Oaks Nottingham Listed 1m 2f 50y 4yo+ La Lune
May Paradise Stakes Ascot Listed 1m 4yo+ Oh This Is Us
May Chelmer Fillies' Stakes Chelmsford City Listed 6f 3yo f Happy Romance
May Daisy Warwick Stakes Goodwood Listed 1m 3f 218y 4yo+ f Alpinista
May Newmarket Stakes Newmarket Listed 1m 2f 3yo c&g Mohaafeth
May Conqueror Stakes Goodwood Listed 1m 3yo+ f Illykato
May Pretty Polly Stakes Newmarket Listed 1m 2f 3yo f Mystery Angel
May Cheshire Oaks Chester Listed 1m 3f 75y 3yo f Dubai Fountain
May Dee Stakes Chester Listed 1m 2f 70y 3yo c&g El Drama
May Oaks Trial Stakes Lingfield Listed 1m 3f 133y 3yo f Sherbet Lemon
May Derby Trial Stakes Lingfield Listed 1m 3f 133y 3yo c&g Third Realm
May Buckhounds Stakes Ascot Listed 1m 3f 211yd 4yo+ Albaflora
May Kilvington Fillies' Stakes Nottingham Listed 6f 18y 3yo+ f Light Refrain
May Spring Trophy Haydock Listed 7f 37y 3yo+ Qaysar
May Royal Windsor Stakes Windsor Listed 1m 31y 3yo+ c&g Solid Stone
May Westow Stakes York Listed 5f 3yo Winter Power
May Marygate Fillies' Stakes York Listed 5f 2yo f Nymphadora
May Michael Seely Memorial Stakes York Listed 7f 192y 3yo f Primo Bacio
May Carnarvon Stakes Newbury Listed 6f 3yo Creative Force
May Fairway Stakes Newmarket Listed 1m 2f 3yo John Leeper
May King Charles II Stakes Newmarket Listed 7f 3yo Bellosa
May Fillies' Trial Stakes Newbury Listed 1m 2f 6y 3yo f Eshaada
May Leisure Stakes Windsor Listed 6f 12y 3yo+ Dream of Dreams
May Rothesay Stakes Ayr Listed 1m 2f 4yo+ f Bharani Star
May Heron Stakes Sandown Listed 1m 3yo Mostahdaf
May Cecil Frail Stakes Haydock Park Listed 6f 3yo+ f Twilight Spinner
May Height of Fashion Stakes Goodwood Listed 1m 1f 197y 3yo f Ad Infinitum
May Cocked Hat Stakes Goodwood Listed 1m 3f 44y 3yo c&g Lone Eagle
May Festival Stakes Goodwood Listed 1m 1f 197y 4yo+ Stormy Antartic
May Tapster Stakes Goodwood Listed 1m 3f 218y 4yo+ Hukum
May National Stakes Sandown Listed 5f 10y 2yo Ebro River
June Achilles Stakes Haydock Park Listed 5f 3yo+ King's Lynn
June Hilary Needler Trophy Beverley Conditions 5f 2yo f Lady Ayresome
June Surrey Stakes Epsom Listed 7f 3y 3yo Mehmento
June Woodcote Stakes Epsom Conditions 6f 3y 2yo Oscula
June Abingdon Stakes Newbury Listed 1m 2f 3yo f Creative Flair
June Maggie Dickson Stakes Musselburgh Listed 7f 33y 3yo+ f Just Beautiful
June Ganton Stakes York Listed 7f 192y 3yo+ Space Traveller
June Scurry Stakes Sandown Listed 5f 10y 3yo Atalis Bay
June Grand Cup York Listed 1m 5f 188y 4yo+ Roberto Escobarr
June Cathedral Stakes Salisbury Listed 6f 3yo+ Line Of Departure
June Wolferton Stakes Ascot Listed 1m 1f 212y 4yo+
June Windsor Castle Stakes Ascot Listed 5f 2yo
June Chesham Stakes Ascot Listed 7f 2yo
June Queen Alexandra Stakes Ascot Conditions 2m 5f 143y 4yo+
June Land O'Burns Fillies' Stakes Ayr Listed 5f 3yo+ f
June Pontefract Castle Stakes Pontefract Listed 1m 4f 5y 4yo+ f
June Eternal Stakes Carlisle Listed 6f 195y 3yo f
June Empress Stakes Newmarket Listed 6f 2yo f
June Fred Archer Stakes Newmarket Listed 1m 4f 4yo+
June Midsummer Stakes Windsor Listed 1m 38y 3yo+
July Dragon Stakes Sandown Listed 5f 10y 2yo
July Gala Stakes Sandown Listed 1m 1f 209y 3yo+
July Coral Distaff Sandown Listed 1m 3yo f
July Coral Marathon Sandown Listed 2m 50 4yo+
July Pipalong Stakes Pontefract Listed 1m 6y 4yo+ f
July Queen Charlotte Fillies' Stakes Chelmsford City Listed 7f 4yo+ f
July Sir Henry Cecil Stakes Newmarket Listed 1m 3yo
July City Walls Stakes York Listed 5f 3yo+
July City Plate Chester Listed 7f 1y 3yo+
July Rose Bowl Stakes Newbury Listed 6f 8y 2yo
July Glasgow Stakes Hamilton Listed 1m 3f 14y 3yo
July Steventon Stakes Newbury Listed 1m 2f 3yo+
July Weatherbys Super Sprint Newbury Sales 5f 34y 2yo
July Aphrodite Stakes Newmarket Listed 1m 4f 3yo+ f
July Star Stakes Sandown Listed 7f 2yo f
July Lyric Stakes York Listed 1m 2f 56y 3yo+ f
July Pat Eddery Stakes Ascot Listed 7f 2yo
July Pomfret Stakes Pontefract Listed 1m 6y 3yo+
August Chalice Stakes Newmarket Listed 1m 4f 3yo+ f
August Queensferry Stakes Chester Listed 6f 17y 3yo+
August Dick Hern Fillies' Stakes Haydock Park Listed 1m 37y 3yo+ f
August Upavon Fillies' Stakes Salisbury Listed 1m 1f 201y 3yo+ f
August St Hugh's Stakes Newbury Listed 5f 34y 2yo f
August Denford Stakes Newbury Listed 7f 2yo
August Flying Fillies' Stakes Pontefract Listed 6f 3yo+ f
August Galtres Stakes York Listed 1m 3f 188y 3yo+ f
August Stonehenge Stakes Salisbury Listed 1m 2yo
August Roses Stakes York Listed 5f 2yo
August Hopeful Stakes Newmarket Listed 6f 3yo+
August August Stakes Windsor Listed 1m 3f 199y 3yo+
August Ripon Champion Two Years Old Trophy Ripon Listed 6f 2yo
September Beverley Bullet Sprint Stakes Beverley Listed 5f 3yo+
September Chester Stakes Chester Listed 1m 6f 87y 3yo+
September Ascendant Stakes Haydock Park Listed 1m 37y 2yo
September Garrowby Stakes York Listed 6f 3yo+
September Scarbrough Stakes Doncaster Listed 5f 3y 2yo+
September Flying Scotsman Stakes Doncaster Listed 7f 6y 2yo
September Stand Cup Chester Listed 1m 4f 63y 3yo+
September John Musker Fillies' Stakes Yarmouth Listed 1m 2f 23y 3yo+ f
September Fortune Stakes Sandown Park Listed 1m 3yo+
September Doonside Cup Ayr Listed 1m 2f 3yo+
September Harry Rosebery Stakes Ayr Listed 5f 2yo
September Haynes, Hanson and Clark Stakes Newbury Conditions 1m 2yo c&g
September Arran Scottish Fillies' Sprint Stakes Ayr Listed 5½f 3yo+ f
September Dubai Duty Free Cup Newbury Listed 7f 3yo+
September Foundation Stakes Goodwood Listed 1m 1f 197y 3yo+
September Jockey Club Rose Bowl Newmarket Listed 2m 3yo+
September Rosemary Stakes Newmarket Listed 1m 3yo+ f
September Godolphin Stakes Newmarket Listed 1m 4f 3yo+
October Noel Murless Stakes Ascot Listed 1m 6f 34y 3yo
October Rous Stakes Ascot Listed 5f 3yo+
October October Stakes Ascot Listed 7f 3yo+ f
October Two-Year-Old Trophy Redcar Listed 6f 2yo
October Guisborough Stakes Redcar Listed 7f 3yo+
October Rockingham Stakes York Listed 6f 2yo
October Boadicea Fillies' Stakes Newmarket Listed 6f 3yo+ f
October Beckford Stakes Bath Listed 1m 6f 3yo+ f
October Silver Tankard Stakes Pontefract Listed 1m 6y 2yo
October Doncaster Stakes Doncaster Listed 6f 2yo
October Radley Stakes Newbury Listed 7f 2yo f
October Fleur De Lys Fillies' Stakes Lingfield Park Listed 1m 3yo+ f
October River Eden Fillies' Stakes Lingfield Park Listed 1m 5f 3yo+ f
Oct / Nov Bosra Sham Stakes Newmarket Listed 6f 2yo f
Oct / Nov James Seymour Stakes Newmarket Listed 1m 2f 3yo+
Oct / Nov Ben Marshall Stakes Newmarket Listed 1m 3yo+
Oct / Nov Montrose Stakes Newmarket Listed 1m 2yo f
November Floodlit Stakes Kempton Park Listed 1m 4f 3yo+
November Gillies Fillies' Stakes Doncaster Listed 1m 2f 60y 3yo+ f
November Wentworth Stakes Doncaster Listed 6f 3yo+
November Churchill Stakes Lingfield Park Listed 1m 2f 3yo+
November Golden Rose Stakes Lingfield Park Listed 6f 1y 3yo+
November Hyde Stakes Kempton Park Listed 1m 3yo+
December Wild Flower Stakes Kempton Park Listed 1m 3f 219y 3yo+
December Quebec Stakes Lingfield Park Listed 1m 2f 3yo+

Other articles requiring deletionEdit

Albeit reluctantly, I will follow the WikiProject guidelines and Wikipedia policy and help as much as possible to expedite the posting of the following additional races as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion:

Category:Restricted stakes races in the United States
Category:Ungraded stakes races in the United States
Category:Listed stakes races in the United States

The New York-Bred 2021 Stakes Schedule including New York Stallion Series events [1] has 40 races with the following values that in fact equal or far exceed the Category:Grade 3 stakes races in the United States:

  • $100,000 : 21
  • $125,000 : 4
  • $150,000 : 7
  • $200,000 : 8

Some of those New York-Bred races already in Wikipedia are:


Other states:

  • Jennings Handicap - Restricted to State of Maryland breds; only ref (not linked): 2007 Maryland Jockey Club Media Guide, page 68-69 on March 3, 2007; a Google name search returned nothing

  • California Derby - Restricted race to State of California breds; one ref to a Pedigree Query website which has been declared invalid by Wikipedia for referencing

  • California Oaks (Black type) - Restricted to State of California breds; inaugurated in 1896, Wikipedia table 1994-2020 (22 out of 80+ runnings); refs for 2 years only out of 80+ years it was run; a Google name search returned nothing

  • Oceanside Stakes - Del Mar, Calfornia Restricted based on earnings
  • Graduation Stakes - Restricted to State of California breds (inaugurated in 1952); 1 ref to Del Mar's "Stakes Schedule" for 2011

  • Khaled Stakes - Restricted to State of California breds; 1 dead ref, 1 meaningless ref, 1 invalid ref (to YouTube)



All are Restricted races to horses bred either in the State of Florida or the State of California:
Sunshine Millions Classic
Sunshine Millions Dash
Sunshine Millions Distaff
Sunshine Millions Filly & Mare Sprint
Sunshine Millions Filly & Mare Turf
Sunshine Millions Oaks
Sunshine Millions Sprint
Sunshine Millions Turf Stakes
Only ref is to the racetrack or to invalid Pedigree Query website, isdead or no ref at all


CanadaEdit

Category:Restricted stakes races in Canada
Category:Ungraded stakes races in Canada

In Canada where all Thoughbred races are part of the U.S. graded stakes system, the races restricted to Province-breds led to a highly successful breeding industry aided and inspired by the astonishing success of the now legendary Northern Dancer. Regardless, we must follow WikiProject guidelines and delete the following 62 Restricted races in the Province of Ontario:

Canadian Triple Crown races:
Queen's Plate,
Prince of Wales Stakes,
Breeders' Stakes
plus:

In addition to the above Canadian Restricted races there are forty Ungraded stakes races in Canada that will also have to be deleted. They are:

We currently have 66 WikiProject Horse racing members so we need to pitch in and get this cleanup done ASAP. Thanks. Stretchrunner II (talk)


CommentsEdit

3 things
Don't like your use of must or done asap. Editors can differ and have you ever heard of WP:NODEADLINE?
There are 66 members but how many are actually active is anyone's guest. My own horse racing expertise is harness racing.
Lastly, at least one of those races was a Grade III race.
Now back to something else....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 12:55, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
  • So if I'm reading this correctly, we might as well stop updating the results tables for all British and Irish Listed and ungraded races now, because the race articles are going to be deleted? --Bcp67 (talk) 13:32, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
Bcp67, Stretchrunner II before gung-ho on deleting ad-hoc, there needs to be a project wide discussion of our path forward after what was deleted (Broadway Stakes (NYB)) and what was not (Hot Rod Charlie) and what you have just delivered in your grand scale analysis. The discussion should deal upon WP:NHORSERACING's inclusion and whether there needs to be an adjustment. Also each country is different. For instance we had this discussion a few years ago and the Europeans, in particularly the British have "Heritage" events that are not graded but historically important. Also Canadian restricted races are not equivalent to State bred NY Restricted. While I am opposed to state bred restricted events I am definitely not against Canadian restricted (e.g. Canadian Triple Crown but yes against Ontario provincial restrictions) and not against Australian events like the Magic Millions and All Star Mile etc. Also some Listed race will need to stay because they were once Graded/Group events so that makes the qualify under today's inclusion. For example your example of the Western Australian G A Towton Cup is incorrect since in 2004 it was GIII which makes it ok. I think this is an excellent opportunity for the project to focus on whats appropriate (so we can dedicate time and effort) and whats not (so we don't get disappointed and defensive about articles that have been created with much time spent and then seeing them deleted). Brudder Andrusha (talk) 14:52, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment: First off, WHOA! **I** wrote the Horse racing SNG as a guideline for those outside this sport who needed guidelines about people and horse notability (this after someone tried an AfD on a 19th century jockey because he was supposedly an "amateur" not a "professional"... sigh). I did post here when I was doing it, and I can't recall if there was much comment, but I would have included anything mentioned. At WP:NHORSERACING, the "GI OR EQUIVALENT" criteria is intended to be an inclusive "presumed notable" slam dunk without need for additional discussion. It is not an exclusionary comment that anything or anyone not a GI is not notable. Further, the SNG (which no one seems to have actually read) contains the statement "Notability for horses or persons associated with horse racing who were not competitors or do not meet the criteria above may be presumed notable if they meet GNG for any of the following..." The whole thing is to make the easy calls. GNG always applies beyond an SNG. Montanabw(talk) 15:50, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Further, to not bog down NHORSERACING, I wrote a supplementary essay of additional guidelines, linked at the SNG, and it is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Horse_racing/Notability In that essay, I outlined some general guidelines that would be of additional assistance, including horse races. There, I outlined the following criteria:

A race or a race meet that may be questionable by the general WP:GNG criteria may be notable or not by assessing the following additional factors:

Criteria supporting notability
  1. A group 1, grade I or equivalent race is presumed notable
  2. A race that previously was a group 1, grade I, or equivalent race is presumed notable even if it is no longer held or no longer in that class
  3. A race meet with multiple graded stakes races or the equivalent
  4. A race meet offering races with large amounts of purse money for the region in which they are held
  5. A race or race meet that is unique in some fashion that generates coverage from neutral third-party news sources, even if not national in focus. Examples may include pony races for young riders, mule races, races for horse breeds that have limited racing opportunities.
  6. A race meet, even if small, if it is one of a very few that exist in the given area (state, region or nation).
  7. Races or meets that are in some fashion a significant historic first (the competition itself, not the participants)
Criteria supporting deletion

These criteria do not mandate deletion, but may indicate that a competition is not notable

  1. A race meet with no graded stakes races, such as a county fair meet, unless the meet or type of race has characteristics noted above in criteria supporting notability.
  2. Imaginary horse races or fictional horse race meets
  3. Races or meets merely named after a famous individual without otherwise meeting any indicia of notability

I hope this clarifies things, and for godsake, let's all settle down here! Montanabw(talk) 15:40, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

  • Comment: I may not be as much of a horse expert as others. But i have worked with the Notability guidelines quite a bit. Let me say first that montanabw has made a plethora of good points and quoted guidelines that you should probably study. I know I will.
Now in reference to WP:N. “A topic is presumed to merit an article if: it either meets GNG below, or the criteria outlined in a SNG.”
And basically, the WP:NSPORT SNG says the same at the top.
And now, there are four basic paths for notability in WP:NHORSERACING. And after those are seven alternate paths to notability. What is so special about Grade I that someone thinks it can be used to fail an article from GNG? And if you could use it, then all paths being equal, you can use all paths. So now we can fail a horse for not being in the hall of fame. That’s why all of this is faulty logic.
As listed in the GNG, the only SNGs that can be used in some way, that is to keep an article from being written are biographies, politicians, and films.
Also in the horse racing SNG, "Please note that the failure to meet these criteria does not mean an article must be deleted;"
I affirm Montanabw’s position along with what I’ve written. dawnleelynn(talk) 18:24, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
From your understanding what is your opinion about the article Yaddo Handicap, an event which was on the above list provided by Stretchrunner II which is a restricted New York State Bred event. The article has two references for the whole article, both of which are dead. The article has been in existence since 2011. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 18:56, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
This issue obviously falls under the umbrella of supplementary essays montanabw wrote. And I see she has responded.dawnleelynn(talk) 03:30, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
I was more interested in seeing whether you would agree if the article fails WP:V and not whether the fact that its a restricted NY Bred race which IMO doesn't makes it notable. The article is not unsimilar to the recently deleted Broadway Stakes (NYB). Remember, that article was initially found to be deficient by a Wikipedian that is not on member of this project. Maybe @Onel5969: can shed some light on what they think of the Yaddo Handicap article. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 14:28, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
Brudder Andrusha, hi, and I want to make it clear that I'm only responding to your question, not commenting on this discussion as a whole, since I have no expertise in horse racing. Regarding the article you ask about, currently it doesn't come close to passing GNG, since the only 2 sources are primary. A brief WP:BEFORE search did not turn up the type of in-depth coverage from independent, reliable sources which would meet GNG. Hope this helps, for what it's worth. Onel5969 TT me 14:49, 23 June 2021 (UTC)
Sources
Yaddo Handicap
Yaddo Handicap
Sabellina Takes Narrow Yaddo Handicap Victory
Saratoga Race Course 2021 Schedule
Ransom's Pride wins Yaddo Handicap
Bond Racing Stables
Saratoga Race Course’s 2020 Stakes Schedule Topped by Early Travers on August 8
New York-Bred Revised Stakes Schedule
Yaddo Archive Records
dawnleelynn(talk) 03:44, 24 June 2021 (UTC) now we have replacements for the two dead links…
Yaddo Handicap as it stands now has been tagged for WP:V and WP:Notability. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 10:42, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment:
Yes, about that... I thought you had understood the guideline regarding doing due diligence on sources prior to tagging for notability for AfD or on current articles. However, I'm not sure now after seeing the tagging and comments on Yaddo Handicap.
I let your previous comment go regarding Hot Rod Charlie because of your misunderstanding of the SNG versus the GNG and the Grade 1 "requirement." Your comment, "IMO that does not make him notable even though you can Google and find many hits." The guideline actually requires you to search for hits prior to putting an AfD tag on an article. See here:
Reading from WP:BEFORE which is in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion, it says, "D. Search for additional sources, if the main concern is notability. The minimum search expected is a normal Google search, a Google Books search, a Google News search, and a Google News archive search; Google Scholar is suggested for academic subjects." There is more to read there. Similar content exists in Wikipedia:New pages patrol under Articles for deletion (AfD). It says, "You must read and follow WP:BEFORE before nominating an article at AfD..." And again, there is more to read, a listing of places to search and some scripts to use to find sources.
Let us also address putting a notability tag on an article as has been done on Yaddo Handicap. See WP:N. "Notability is based on the existence of suitable sources, not on the state of sourcing in an article"
"The absence of sources or citations in an article (as distinct from the non-existence of sources) does not indicate that a subject is not notable. Notability requires only the existence of suitable independent, reliable sources, not their immediate presence or citation in an article." I have copied in just the immediate portion but it goes on to state further that editors have more responsibility for the article before doing an AfD or tagging an article. Thus, you cannot tag an article for Notability based on just the sources you see there. In fact, the wording of the tag you placed says, "The topic of this article may not meet Wikipedia's general notability guideline." The topic (or subject) and not the article is what is being disputed regarding notability by that tag. You cannot know if the subject is notable solely by the references in the article.
Now regarding Wikipedia:Verifiability WP:V Here is another area where there is more to the guideline to consider than just a simple tag and go. But I will just say that most editors will object if you remove material without giving them time to provide references. However, all content that is not cited in an article is subject to this tag...as the guideline states, although it does make the suggestion that if you suspect it can be cited, you should cite it if you can.
Since you claim to be a stickler for the guidelines, I assume you want to be certain that there are or are not enough reliable sources for Yaddo Handicap in the places mentioned in the WP:BEFORE section. I only searched in the first one. It's really up to you in this case since you tagged it. Wikipedia is at the core first about Notability and it is not designed for tagging articles with a Notability tag or putting them up for AfD without some legwork first.dawnleelynn(talk) 03:37, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment: Things like restricted stakes races probably need to be more fully discussed by the project, but they may meet GNG in some cases. I am not sure if other countries besides the US have these races with geographic restrictions (in the US they are tied to breeder incentives and the purses are usually funded by state gambling tax money, which is why they are popular), but it's a good conversation to have. Basically, we don't need to have an article on every race at every track in the world, but there may be room for some of them under the "one season of professional cricket in Manchester" standard. Don' t know. Montanabw(talk) 22:48, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
    • Canada has a lot of restricted races, some of which have articles, some (most I daresay) do not. There are a few obvious ones that should and do: the Triple Crown and Triple Tiara being the most obvious. Just about all of the rest get some coverage in the press, and a lot more so if they attract a notable horse. But from a maintenance POV, they're a bit of a nightmare because there's really no way of knowing if they have an article or not, and you can't see a race history in Equibase for ungraded races (although you can of course find individual charts if you already know the winner). To illustrate the maintenance issue, I took a look at Pink Lloyd's wins: half of them are graded and the underlying race articles are up to date - great. The other half are restricted, which is where it gets tricky. One doesn't have an article, which is fine. That leaves five restricted races with articles, only 1 of which is up to date. Anyways, I don't like the idea of deleting articles created in good faith, and especially if they've had notable winners in their day, but the ones we keep could use some polish. I see a lot are still talking about Polytrack when Woodbine switched to Tapeta ages ago. Ah well, time to get busy. Jlvsclrk (talk) 18:18, 17 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment: Sorry I'm late, and I'm not sure how relevant this is but... At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious, I think we should not lose sight of the fact that the final "G" of GNG and SNG stands for "Guidline". I tend to deal with horses rather than races and my rule of thumb is that if a post-1971 horse didn't win a G1 there should be very good reasons for creating an article and that these reasons should be spelled out in the lede. So for example Celestial Storm never won a G1 but was one of the highest rated horses in Europe in 1986 and 1987. Quixall Crossett could not have won a G1 if you strapped a rocket to his rear end, but he got more mainstream media attention than most G1 winners. Common sense is the best guideline. Tigerboy1966  08:27, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Tuesdee Testa and Dark MirageEdit

Would some members from this WikiProject mind taking a look at Tuesdee Testa#Dark Mirage? I'm not sure all of the extra detail about the horse is really necessary because there's already a stand-alone article about the horse at Dark Mirage. I've started a talk page discussion about this at Talk:Tuesdee Testa#Dark Mirage for reference and would appreciate any input. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:17, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Richard BaerleinEdit

Hi all. In expanding Deaths in 1995, I discovered an obituary on horse racing journalist Richard Baerlein, who we currently have no article on. I thought someone from this project might be interested in creating one, so I dug up another source as well. Here they are:

  • Tim Fitzgeorge-Parker (23 October 2011). "OBITUARY:Richard Baerlein". The Independent. (originally published in 1995, but the online article doesn't give a day)
  • "An Observer Classic; Richard Baerlein, the Observer's celebrated racing correspondent sings the praises of the horse he had famously tipped for victory the previous Christmas". The Observer. 4 June 2000.

If you have access to newspapers.com, there is also an obituary in The Guardian: here. Best.4meter4 (talk) 22:56, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Cannabis and sportsEdit

New stub: Cannabis and sports. Any project members care to help expand? ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:58, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

It’s pretty much illegal for the horses. Maybe let us know if that becomes an issue in the article. Montanabw(talk) 18:27, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

LetruskaEdit

Hi y'all. If anyone knows of any sources for Mexican horse racing, I need them for details on Letruska's first six starts. Thanks! Jlvsclrk (talk) 19:41, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Barbara Jo RubinEdit

My draft for Barbara Jo Rubin was recently put into mainspace. According to sources, Rubin is the first woman to win a professional horse race. Any help with the article would be appreciated. Thank you, Thriley (talk) 18:21, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

@Thriley:, Inadded a little. Hope it helps. Montanabw(talk) 18:52, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

PercussionistEdit

I was wondering if the Subsequent Group 1 wins section of 2013 Epsom Derby should include Percussionist's win in the Grand National Hurdle Stakes. Tigerboy1966  07:40, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

AfdEdit

Discussion in progress of peripheral interest to members of this project: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/A Celebration of Horses: The American Saddlebred. Montanabw(talk) 18:29, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

State Of RestEdit

Calling @Tigerboy1966:, @Bcp67:, @Jlvsclrk:, @Sunline02:. Please take a look at the article I've created for dual hemisphere GI winner State Of Rest. I usually don't go down this path of creating an article for a horse and I known you folks are more experienced in this area. I have missing links and a background update into the breeding aspect of the horse would be a great addition. Thanks. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 09:02, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for this. I have added some material to the background and pedigree. I will also look up the sales results in the original currency which would be either euros or guineas. Tigerboy1966  09:48, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
@Tigerboy1966: Looks like £45,000 as a foal and 60,000 guineas as a yearling, per this report [2] --Bcp67 (talk) 11:12, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
Tattersalls still selling in guineas. Looks like RP's error.81.168.89.89 (talk) 13:42, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
Yes - I didn't spot that. It's certainly 45,000gns at the Tatts December 18 foal sale from the sales result cited in the article.--Bcp67 (talk) 20:18, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
Super. Also there is a change of ownership. Not sure if it was early this year or if it was last year. The Sportinglife charts don't list the owner at the time of the event. I didn't check Racing Post but I think you folks will quickly pick that up. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 09:51, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Two possibly non-notable stubsEdit

Hi, I found these two related unsourced racehorse stubs, both tagged for notability for over a decade: Secret Firm and Secret Hello. Some Googling on my part seems to confirm that they probably don't pass WP:GNG, but I don't know the first thing about horse racing/racehorses and whether any specific criteria may apply. Could someone here determine whether these articles need to be deleted or saved? Thanks! Lennart97 (talk) 12:52, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

I just noticed that these two were also included in a list of possible deletion candidates many years ago by Tigerboy1966. Out of the articles mentioned there, Altibr and Grozny (horse) are also still around without any proper sourcing. And while we're at it, Danetime has the same issue. Lennart97 (talk) 13:02, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
Could Grozny not be notable for winning the Derby Nacional? He is listed as a winner here [3] with further details here [4]

Lankyant (talk) 14:21, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for raising this again. Secret Firm and Secret Hello have now been prodded. Altibr, Grozny (horse) and Danetime were all decent racehorses but fail GNG so feel free to prod them as well. Tigerboy1966  18:59, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
Actually both articles are at AFD now....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 19:56, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
I think Danetime can probably be salvaged. One source, but indicated he was a leading sire in Western Australia. Even if he didn’t have a G1 racing record, if he was significant as a sire, that would meet GNG. Probably worth looking into and seeing if more could be added. I’ll look at the other two and see if we can find more. Montanabw(talk) 20:04, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Follow up— basically, I think Secret Hello just barely passes the criteria for GNG, as I think he won a grade one futurity as a two-year-old. I think Grozny can also be salvaged, as we have very little on races in Latin America and the one he did win appears to be quite significant. I do think it is important that we factor in that most of the sources on that article are probably in Spanish. I think that Altibr and Secret Firm can both go, as neither of them won a grade one race, nor do I see a significant record at stud. Given that we do have a SNG for race horses, I think we can apply it in these cases to help refine where the line is. Montanabw(talk) 20:35, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

I concur with Montanabw Lankyant (talk) 05:13, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks everyone, for picking this up so quickly! Lennart97 (talk) 10:40, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Secret Hello has been relisted. My own position is that this horse’s article is exactly where the line for notability gets drawn, I just am not quite sure which side we should draw on. I voted “week keep“ at the AFD, and would value everyone else weighing in, so that we have a really good test case for consensus.Montanabw(talk) 20:39, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Another deleteEdit

Clickity Clack - should it be deleted? The horse won only one non-graded stakes which was a restricted stakes which kind have been deleted at Wikipedia). Stretchrunner II (talk) 12:50, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

CLickity Clack's win came in the Princess Elizabeth Stakes (Canada), whose article says it is Canada's most valuable race for juvenile fillies. The race is restricted to Canadian-bred horses, but so is the Queen's Plate, which is non-graded for the same reason. I'd say keep. if it passes the GNG.--Bcp67 (talk) 15:17, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
How does a GNG assessment happen? I have always assumed "notability" came from a major race win in whatever country (Canada's Queen's Plate is, the Princess Elizabeth is not), or internationally such as a Breeders' Cup, an "Arc" and the like worldwide. Stretchrunner II (talk) 14:41, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
Coverage in reliable sources basically - see WP:GNG. --Bcp67 (talk) 19:14, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Hi gang, PLEASE read our SNG for racehorses at WP:NHORSERACING and its supplemental subpage. I busted my ass to create those guidelines, and carefully Sheparded them past the NSPORTS crowd to make it a solid guideline. We can tweak the guideline, but could you guys please read the dang thing first before putting up a bunch of stuff for deletion and then creating drama. Sorry to be a little grumpy, but I really did put lots and lots and lots of careful work into that SNG, with input from the group that was here at the time it was created. Montanabw(talk) 20:31, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
Oh and, if some guy who played a couple games of professional football in the Extreme Football League gets his Wikipedia article, God knows a winner of a G1 race should get their article too, lol. Montanabw(talk) 20:36, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
Again discussion about inclusion is worth debating and revisted. Articles about winners of restricted race is well documented in debates above. Allowing articles like this joke is opening doors for a barrage of puerility. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 16:37, 22 November 2021 (UTC)
  • This particular horse is yet another example of the gray area. Like I say, if some guy who played a single game of professional cricket in Sri Lanka gets a WP article than so should horses like these. But I'm not sure what the current consensus is for notability of obscure cricket or football players. Anyone? Montanabw(talk) 03:00, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

New York Driving Club? Gentlemen's Driving Association?Edit

I've been working on Fleetwood Park Racetrack. My main interest is as part of Bronx history; I know almost nothing about horse racing. One thing that puzzles me about the historical sources is the mention of both the New York Driving Club and the Gentlemen's Driving Association. Were these two separate entities who ran the track at different times? Two names for the same entity? Two different entities that co-existed and did different things? Anybody know anything about this history? -- RoySmith (talk) 23:08, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Well, no sooner did I post the above, I found this. -- RoySmith (talk) 23:16, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

RFC that could affect this projectEdit

There is a titling RFC at Wikipedia talk:Article titles that will affect many articles at this project. There was discussion of making the RfC handled bit by bit before all projects understood the ramifications with entertainment being singled out next in a deleted draft, and other projects after that. Whether you agree or don't agree please join in the discussion for this massive Wikipedia change. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:41, 13 December 2021 (UTC)


Notability SNG updateEdit

I noticed that WP:NOTABILITY has been updated a little bit since the horse racing SNG was created. Basically, the notability standard now ranks GNG & SNG as coequal alternative criteria, one does not supersede the other. So I made a few minor copy edit at Wikipedia:WikiProject Horse racing/Notability, and if anyone wants to look at them, now you know. ;) Montanabw(talk) 18:48, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Popular pagesEdit

Hi, Today I added "Popular pages" wikilink for "WikiProject Horse racing" to the project page. Popular pages is a bot-generated (monthly) list of pageviews, useful for focused cleanup of frequently viewed articles. Regards, JoeNMLC (talk) 17:08, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Latin American RacingEdit

I have noticed a dearth of articles and information on horse racing in Latin America (probably largely due to a similar dearth of available sources in English). Thus far, almost everything (racetracks, graded/group stakes races, notable people and horses, etc.) is either non-existent or a stub, with the occasional exception of some horses that came north to the US to race. I'm slowly trying to help fill that gap, but it's a pretty large one. The main priority is the countries of Argentina, Brazil, Chile, and Peru, since they are the largest, most important, and most notable horse racing countries in the region; Argentina in particular. Uruguay, Puerto Rico, Panama, and Venezuela are of lesser but still notable importance, and a lot of notable US racehorses did a significant amount in Mexico in the 20th century, even if modern racing in the country is much less notable. There is also some racing/breeding in Ecuador, Columbia, the Dominican Republic, Paraguay, Costa Rica, Bolivia, and Guatemala, but probably not of enough importance to be anything more than noted as existing.
The main international group in the region is OSAF, and they have a website in English. I have compiled a list of potential sources (mostly in Spanish and Portuguese, although with a few in English). I would greatly appreciate any help or recommendations for articles of priority to create/edit (I keep flitting between giving primary priority to important G1 races, racetracks, prominent people, top modern horses, and horses of significant historical importance). TabbyLadrona (talk) 16:25, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Pending proposal to declare NSPORTS (and NHORSERACING) an invalid argument at AfDEdit

A new proposal is now pending to add language to NSPORT providing, among other things, that "meeting [NSPORTS or NHORSERACING] would not serve as a valid keep argument in a deletion discussion." If you have views on this proposal, one way or the other, please feel free to add your comments at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Subproposal 1 (NSPORT). Cbl62 (talk) 18:02, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Notable?Edit

I'm thinking of nominating Garde Champetre for deletion. Cross-country specialist and a Cheltenham Festival winner, but his highest-level win was a Grade 2 novices' chase hurdle. I can't see any great claim to notability here. Any views? --Bcp67 (talk) 21:05, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

I've made the references better in the article and I found this reference: [5], is that a good cause for notability? Lankyant (talk) 22:42, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
I would lean slightly towards keeping. I suppose strictly doesn't meet WP:NHORSERACING but multiple Festival wins plus the Grade 2 feels like he is only missing out because the X-Country isn't graded, even though it's the top race in the discipline. Peaky76 (talk) 21:52, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
That's a fair comment, and the sales record article also gives it a nudge towards notability as well. I won't nominate it.--Bcp67 (talk) 08:30, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Horse age debateEdit

There's a debate about how to display the age at death of a horse, discussion at Talk:Bobs Worth#Age at death/horse age. Would be good to get the views of project members. Joseph2302 (talk) 13:39, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Infoboxes and major racesEdit

After a hiatus, I've finally found time to get back doing British jockey biographies. I've built a script to help generate infoboxes and it occurred to me - I'm not aware of any agreed criteria on what goes in them. Are there any? My default has been:

  • Races: Group/Grade 1 wins with years, Classics listed first in a separate list
  • Horses: Any horses on which the jockey has won a Group 1, if the horse has an article
  • Awards: Champion Apprentice/Jockey, Lester Awards, Sports Personality of the Year (or equivalent)

The races are then duplicated in the major races section of the main article. I'm kind of ambivalent about this - it feels like unnecessary duplication, but then again I'm sure some people prefer them listed here than the infobox. I'm also ambivalent at what goes in them. For the likes of Moore or Dettori, the listing seems to go on forever, even with just G1s, but for some lesser known jockeys it feels like major handicaps might be worth including as career landmarks. The long and the short of it is - what do we want in the infoboxes/major races list? Peaky76 (talk) 22:13, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Major races has always been a problem for me! Races like the Grand National and Irish Grand National often get included in major wins and I usually remove them - objectively the National is "just" a Grade 3 handicap, but we all know that it's a huge race, and a world of difference from the ordinary Grade 3 jumps race. So maybe the major wins criteria could be G1 wins, plus a specific list of other major races. Problems also arise for jockeys who rode in the pre Group-race days, where something like the Cambridgeshire or Imperial Cup would have been viewed as a major race at the time, or races which have changed status - my favourite example is the Lockinge Stakes, now a G1 but when I started watching racing it was a G3 race - we include all wins in it in a jockey's major wins section, regardless of its status at the time. We don't include G1 wins for races which have lost their status I think - the Flying Childers is the only UK example of this, but there are many Italian ex-G1 races. By rights we ought to show all a jockey or trainer's G1 wins I'd say.
Back to the infobox / major wins discussion - I'd rather see the wins and horses in the article section than infobox given the choice, to avoid duplication and an over-long infobox. Anyway, preferably one or the other but not both.
There's also often an honours section in the infobox too, showing where a race or award has been named after someone - more often a horse but sometimes a jockey or trainer.--Bcp67 (talk) 08:48, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
Yeah, you've hit on some of my dilemmas there! Most of my biogs are for historic jockeys and sources make a much bigger fuss about stuff like the Cambridgeshire, Lincoln and November Handicap. Makes me think we should possibly make a distinction/allowance for historical value. I know what you mean about the GN as well. My thoughts would be that to non-racing people the GN is *the* big race, so to not include it might be correct in a racing purist sense, but less useful in a general encyclopaedic one. And naming of races is another dilemma. My particular bugbear is the Vertem Futurity. I can't get used to that IRL and it seems weird using it anachronistically here, so where obvious I'm using the historic names - Timeform Gold Cup, Racing Post Trophy - where I can.
If I started noting some of this down as guidance on the infobox page, would you mind casting your eye over it? Peaky76 (talk) 14:02, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

China Horse ClubEdit

Hello, I noticed a brand new editor has been adding unsourced promotional material to China Horse Club. Any help would be appreciated. Thriley (talk) 18:52, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

"Who" versus "it", "that" or "which"Edit

I have noticed several times that some people on Wikipedia seem to like to use "who" to refer to racehorses. For examples, see the opening sentence of Secretariat (horse), Seattle Slew, War Admiral, Whirlaway and Rombauer (horse). To me it seems a bit strange. I doubt that is generally done for other animals. Is this a widely supported convention? Has this been previously discussed as a matter of Wikipedia MoS convention? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 06:32, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it has been previously discussed. "Who" is used to introduce relative clauses for named horses. I don't follow other animal articles but have noted they follow the same convention. Jlvsclrk (talk) 21:55, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
Yes, I just found it in some articles about other animals as well (e.g., for named individual orcas and giant pandas). Perhaps it should be included in the MoS. I looked for it there and didn't find it. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 00:09, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

I opened a further discussion of this issue at WT:MOS#Using "who/whose/her/him/hers/his" in the context of named individual animals. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:33, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Henry Davies (Hampshire cricketer)Edit

Hi all, just over from the cricket project. I was looking to expand this rather obscure Hampshire cricketer, only to find out he was a rather successful jockey, riding in 1,064 races and winning 332 of these. I wonder if anyone here can find some reliable sources for his horse racing career? Cheers, StickyWicket (talk) 19:38, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

2022 Grand NationalEdit

Can anyone please add a race summary to 2022 Grand National ASAP so we can get it on the In The News? Lankyant (talk) 00:17, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

User script to detect unreliable sourcesEdit

I have (with the help of others) made a small user script to detect and highlight various links to unreliable sources and predatory journals. Some of you may already be familiar with it, given it is currently the 39th most imported script on Wikipedia. The idea is that it takes something like

  • John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14. (John Smith "[https://www.deprecated.com/article Article of things]" ''Deprecated.com''. Accessed 2020-02-14.)

and turns it into something like

It will work on a variety of links, including those from {{cite web}}, {{cite journal}} and {{doi}}.

The script is mostly based on WP:RSPSOURCES, WP:NPPSG and WP:CITEWATCH and a good dose of common sense. I'm always expanding coverage and tweaking the script's logic, so general feedback and suggestions to expand coverage to other unreliable sources are always welcomed.

Do note that this is not a script to be mindlessly used, and several caveats apply. Details and instructions are available at User:Headbomb/unreliable. Questions, comments and requests can be made at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable.

- Headbomb {t · c · p · b}

This is a one time notice and can't be unsubscribed from. Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:01, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Sonny Leon jockey of Rich StrikeEdit

I recently created an article for Sonny Leon, the jockey of Rich Strike, the winner of the 2022 Kentucky Derby. His notability has been questioned. I think he meets notability requirements with the derby win. Thriley (talk) 03:20, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Without a doubt a Grade 1 Classic winning jockey in my mind would qualify under WP:GNG. What is needed for the original article before it was REDIRECTed is more references indicating his notability. For example the jockey has won 770 events in his career in the US since 2015 (Equibase). According to the DRF ref on the 2022 Kentucky Derby (used also in the original article) is that he has established himself on the Ohio circuit and has won several meetings as the winningest jockey. Well that's a start... But I don't think this is the end because he definitely was a top jockey in his native Venezuela. I'm sure this capable jockey by his phenomenal ride, we have not heard the end of this and if Rich Strike continues to perform well then there will be more articles about this jockey. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 08:13, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Jockey jerseysEdit

Hi! I'm not much of a horse racing guy, but I saw Lester Piggott up at WP:ITN/C. Are the jerseys for all major events underneath the infobox really suitable? On mobile it takes up between 5 and 8 full screens before you can through the remainder of the article prose. This seems quite crufty to me.Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 17:37, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

They should never have been included in the article relating to Lester Piggott, they should only be in a specific horse race, such as 1983 Epsom Derby. They include also include second and third place finishes too, I have therefore removed them. SethWhales talk 21:06, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
Seems like a significantly common occourance, the amount of jockeys at [6]. Lee Vilenski (talkcontribs) 11:41, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Only one set of thumbnails should be shown unless user explicitly expands to show more. However the templates used do not seem to collapse correctly on mobile. I will investigate and try to get templates updated. JockeyColours (talk)

I have now edited this page Queen_of_Scots_Stakes to not display images when accessed via a mobile device (max-width: 767px). Note that simply accessing the mobile site (en.m.wikipedia.org) via a PC will still display images. Any thoughts? JockeyColours (talk)
Looks like a good solution - I tried the page on mobile and couldn't see the colours, as expected from your comment above.--Bcp67 (talk) 13:34, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
This change has now been carried out on the standard templates used to display this type of content, so now applies to all pages. Thanks to the administrators of these templates for making it happen.

Does Munnings deserve an article by now?Edit

Munnings 2006 (Speightstown - La Comete, by Holy Bull) never won a G1 but did win 3 G2s including Woody Stephens Stakes, Tom Fool Handicap and the now Listed Gulfstream Park Sprint Championship Stakes. However, what's more impressive about Munnings has evolved as a sire. He now has sired five G1 winners including multiple G1 winner Jack Christopher who this Saturday also won the now G1 Woody Stephens Stakes. He's on my do list but if someone wants to start I'll help out. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 17:45, 12 June 2022 (UTC)