Talk:Odesa/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Odessos

With all respect, Odessa in not Odessos (Bulgarian Varna is). I'm not sure how Greeks call Odessa now, but that Greek version of the name is misleading. Should we list here the city's name in all possible languages? I've created a link to the future Greek article on Odessa: should be enough. --Barbatus 19:02, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Much better, but way to go ...

Thank you, LuiKhuntek, it is much better now. But still:

• why start pre-history of Odessa from the 14th century AD? There is archaeological evidence of existence of the ancient Greek colony in the very center of the modern city (though the name that colony is unknown);
• Chadžibėjus is not Lithuanian, it is a Latinized form of Turkish Hacibey; to say that "Odessa was then a town known as Khadjibey" is not exactly correct: known to whom? Tartars? Lithuanians? Russians?
• also, the phrase "Odessa was then a town known as Khadjibey" implies that there was a continuity; of course, a town did exist before Odessa was founded, but had it been inhabited throughout all those centuries (if memory serves me, Evliya Çelebi described ruins of a settlement there)? hasn't the population changed with the foundation of the Russian port? Sure, you can call Hacibey a predecessor of Odessa, but Odessa never was known as Hacibey (or under whatever variation of that name, except, of course, as Gadjibey—briefly, for few months);
• Deribasovskaya, though probably the most famous of Odessa streets, is not the main street of the city.

-- Barbatus 23:22, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Potemkin stairs

Barbatus wrote: If you don't know, just click on the picture, and READ what is written there: "l'escalier Richelieu" (OK, this is in French), and "Ришельевская лестница" (hope you read Russian)

I do read Russian, poorly.

l'escalier Richelieu must be be French. I have never read this before in the five English guidebooks.

Should we also include the names: "Boulevard steps", Primorsky stairs, or the "Giant Staircase" in the short blurb below this picture too? I think the whole thing is kind of silly.

Anyway, thanks for the correction. Odessaukrain 03:53, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

4th largest?

If I recall, before this article said it is the third largest, now this edit was added:

Odessa (Ukrainian: Одеса, Russian: Одесса; also referred to as Odesa) is the fourth-largest city in Ukraine.

I removed this edit, does anyone have a source for this? Travb (talk) 23:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I've just been reading the entry on Donetsk, and that is also described as the fourth largest city in Ukraine, they can't both be right. --172.143.166.219 23:03, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I think our article is wrong. I will add a fact tag, and see what I can find. Travb (talk) 23:15, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I've more recent and official source About number and composition population of UKRAINE by All-Ukrainian Population Census'2001 data. Kyiv 2611, Kharkiv 1470, Dnipropetrovsk 1065, Odesa 1029, Donetsk 1016. TAG 10:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

As per About number and composition population of UKRAINE by All-Ukrainian Population Census'2001 data: Kyiv 2611 Kharkiv 1470 Dnipropetrovs'k 1065 Odesa 1029 Donets'k 1016

I will revert my edit. Travb (talk) 17:11, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Ancient Greeks

More about the Greek colony is needed...--Jack Upland 23:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Sure, sure ... but virtually nothing is known, besides the fact that there was an ancient Greek settlement there. Very little had been found during construction and repair work in the historical center of Odessa, where a comprehensive excavations are all but impossible. There were comparatively recent speculations about the possible name of that colony, but, unfortunately, the literature is out of my reach and it is not available online.--Barbatus 00:26, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Jabotinsky

I just added the following: Ze'ev Jabotinsky, a Zionist leader, author, orator, soldier, and founder of the Jewish Legion in World War I, was born in Odessa. 17 December 2006. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.84.102.227 (talk • contribs)

Why you have added it ? There are already Category:People from Odessa. Simply put it on corresponding articles. There is no way to put everybody in one article. --TAG 10:17, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Sister Cities

Hello everyone! How can I add on the website that there is another sister city for Odessa - Vancouver!!! And they really are very much alike :) (not sure about Chisinau though at all). Thanks :) Regards to all odessity! :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.195.60.68 (talk • contribs)

Like you mother said: if you want something done--you need to do it yourself--people ignore these talk page 99.9% of the time.Travb 18:47, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

There are more then one sister city for Odessa. List of sister cities (in Russian language) --TAG 02:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

How about some information that the twinning with Vancouver was one of the first official international twinning arrangements? -- Purplezart 09:11, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

{{User:Travb/If I had a nickel}}

Signed:Travb (talk) 09:15, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I find that less than constructive, Travb. Simply knowing that information is out there does not imply that I have that information. --Purplezart 09:43, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I hope you are the 1% and get you answer, I used to ask questions all the time, and never get answers. Travb (talk) 21:30, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Here is possibly reliable source of requested information - U.S. Mission to Italy - Sister Cities To Mark 50 Years of Citizen Diplomacy, July 11, 2006. This can explain why Odessa has so many sister cities - first everybody wanted to help rebuild it [1] - then it become common for Odessa to connect with others cities. --TAG 00:27, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

three cheers for TAG. I nowikied my template. Thanks. Travb (talk) 04:41, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

On the official site of the Odessa city council it is written that Odessa has sister cities and partner cities. I don't know what the difference is between them, but I believe that it exists. Should we divide sister and partner cities? Now they are mentioned all together.Elefante bianco 16:57, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

modify

I modified this cite:

• "Odessa City Council Commission of European integration and foreign relations (Head of the Commission)". Retrieved April 29, 2006.

I am not sure why it was added. First it is in Russian, which is okay, but secondly it seems to have little relevance to the entire page. If someone disagrees they are welcome to add it back, but please explain why it is on the page.Travb 18:47, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I placed the link to the Official site of the city council to the second place (maybe it should be at the first?) because I believe it is more important than anything below it. Besides I removed Odessa links at the Open Directory Project because it is not informative and guides to another links catalogue.Elefante bianco 16:57, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Odesa emblem.gif

Image:Odesa emblem.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 14:50, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Chto u diyka vidno s lyuka?

? `'Míkka 01:49, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Leninsky Komsomol Park in Odessa

I am wondering:

1. what the present name of Leninsky Komsomol Park in Odessa is
2. If this lenin bust graveyard is still there (if it is not where did the busts go?)

Here is a Photo: [2]

Here is the caption of the photo:

An unidentified man carries his child as he walks along a line of Lenin busts in Leninsky Komsomol (Ленинский Комсомол) Park in Odessa, southern Ukraine, Wednesday, Feb. 12, 1997. The dozens of statues and busts of the Soviet founder in an Odessa park form a unique museum - or graveyard - for the many monuments to Vladimir Lenin that were hastily pulled down in Ukraine after the 1991 Soviet collapse.

Thanks in advance. Odessaukrain 18:37, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I found the answer to number 1: „Leninsky Komsomol" CRP 65033, Odessa city, Melnitskaya, 32b[3]

Anyone know if the lenin bust graveyard is still there? Odessaukrain 00:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Update: after visiting Odessa, the Lenin bust graveyard is gone, along with the Lenin statue next to the train station. There are two Lenin statues in Ленинский Комсомол, but according to locals the largest one will be removed this fall Odessaukrain 14:39, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Pictures: How many is too many?

I see that recently quite a few pictures have been added to the article. Are they really that necessary? (Not to mention, some captures are just badly written and misspelled.) Probably it would be better to move some of them to the Commons?--Barbatus 17:30, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree, there probably are too many pictures in this article, and they are causing layout problems with the "edit" links. OrangeDog (talk) 22:43, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Removed Christmas in Odessa

I removed this sentence, added by anon:

Emannuel Anton Galitsky put out the platinum cd "Christmas in Odessa"

Maybe someone can add it back somewhere else. Odessaukrain (talk) 03:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Odessa / Odesa population on 01.01.1913

Twenty largest cities in Imperial Russia on 01.01.1913 (14.01.1913)

Imperial Central Bureau of Statistics show these figures.

• 1) Moscow 1.635.000 inhabitants
• 2) Saint Petersburg 1.500.000 inhabitants
• 3) Warsaw 771.000 inhabitants
• 4) Odessa 510.000 inhabitants
• 5) Lodz 328.500 inhabitants
• 6) Kiev 323.000 inhabitants
• 7) Riga 283.000 inhabitants
• 8) Harkov 207.000 inhabitants
• 9) Saratov 198.000 inhabitants
• 10) Tiflis 197.000 inhabitants
• 11) Vilna 183.000 inhabitants
• 12) Buzuluk 165.000 inhabitants
• 13) Tashkent 165.000 inhabitants
• 14) Kazan 162.000 inhabitants
• 15) Ekarinoslav 157.000 inhabitants
• 16) Astrakhan 147.000 inhabitants
• 17) Helsinki / Helsingfors 137.000 inhabitants
• 18) Rostov on Don 129.500 inhabitants
• 19) Kisinjev 129.000 inhabitants
• 20) Baku 128.000 inhabitants
• Tula 110.000 inhabitants
• Ufa 103.500 inhabitants
• Jaroslavl 102.000 inhabitants
• Minsk 100.000 inhabitants
• Tsaritsyn 99.500 inhabitants
• Nikolajev 99.000 inhabitants
• Kokand 99.000 inhabitants
• Samara 95.500 inhabitants
• Nizhni Novgorod 92.000 inhabitants
• Dvinsk (Dunaburg) 90.000 inhabitants
• Zhitomir 88.000 inhabitants
• Orel 82.000 inhabitants
• Vitebsk 81.000 inhabitants
• Voronezh 79.000 inhabitants
• Bialystok 78.500 inhabitants
• Kovno 76.000 inhabitants
• Irkutsk 76.000 inhabitants
• Orenburg 74.000 inhabitants
• Jekaterinodar 71.000 inhabitants
• Jelisavetgrad 69.500 inhabitants
• Revel 69.000 inhabitants
• Sevastopol 68.000 inhabitants
• Tomsk 68.000 inhabitants
• Taganrog 65.500 inhabitants
• Samarkand 65.000 inhabitants
• Andizan 65.000 inhabitants
• Libau 65.000 inhabitants
• Penza 64.500 inhabitants
• Smolensk 63.500 inhabitants
• Kremenchug 63.000 inhabitants
• Omsk 63.000 inhabitants
• Simferopol 62.000 inhabitants
• Tver 60.000 inhabitants
• Kronstadt 60.000 inhabitants
• Lublin 59.500 inhabitants
• Kursk 57.000 inhabitants
• Blagovjeshchensk 57.000 inhabitants
• Simbirsk 56.500 inhabitants
• Tambov 52.000 inhabitants
• Kaluga 52.000 inhabitants
• Novocherkassk 51.000 inhabitants
• Poltava 50.500 inhabitants
• Stavropol 50.000 inhabitants
• Mohilev 50.000 inhabitants

The list less than 100 years ago (2008) looks quite different than 2008 population figures. In many cases the population has increased by tenfold of 1913 figures. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.198.226 (talk) 18:14, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Reverting to "Odessa"

I think the renaming of this article to "Odesa" violates English language norm and needs to be reverted. Please express your opinion. Thanks. Kulikovsky 22:41, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I believe that it should remain as Odesa, since this is the correct translation from Ukrainian to English. And Ukrainian is the only official language of Ukraine. Odessa, if I am not mistaken is a town/city in USA, therefore it would be much more convenient to use Odesa as the name of this article, as 1. It’s correct spelling 2. To differ two articles. --MaksKhomenko 14:18, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

The entire English language world refers to Odessa, Ukraine as Odessa. The Ukrainian spelling is irrelevant. Odessaukrain 14:36, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Yet the proper way to say is Odesa, and should be changed to such. Dont forget that the USSR fell apart, and we got to use UKrainian terms now.

Mona23653 14:41, 26 October 2007 (UTC)mona23653

I put a message on your talk page. Once the current and future English authors begin spelling Odessa "Odesa", then the page move would be substantiated and warranted. But unforunatly, I can't think of a single article or author who uses the term "Odessa" over "Odesa".

Be content to know that "Odesa" redirects to "Odessa" and there is an explanation in the very first sentence that there is an alternate spelling.

I care little about the foolish language argument in Ukraine now. Odessaukrain 14:49, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Everybody in English-speaking world spells ODESSA.--Assedo 00:35, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

As, today, it is a Ukrainian city, I would side with the Romanisation of the Ukrainian spelling rather than the Russian spelling -- that is, "Odesa". --Bossi (talk • gallery • contrib) 20:55, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Official language

Though Russian is largely spoken here and elsewhere, Ukrainian is the sole official language in Ukraine. Like many others about Ukraine (like Byelorussia and many more, by the way), this article does not reflect this fact, noticeably with the location names. I see no problem about giving the Russian names, anyway, but: A) Ukrainian alone has been repeatedly declared official, and any official status has been denied to Russian by successive governments, whatever their color; B) Other languages are spoken for 'some' time in Ukraine, like Tatar, Gagauz, etc. but those do not receive the same treatment as Russian in this encyclopedia. As it can be seen in the history, the first Odesa has been moved to Odessa, which is incorrect and inconsistent with the spelling used in about 90% of the articles (just check…) and with the results given by Google. The Russian spelling will send you in most cases to Texas. Would it be too much disturbation to take this into account, as Wikipedia is intended to give CORRECT information? Korenyuk 16:33, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

This is not about the correctness since all commonly used names are correct. This is about common usage as per WP:NC(UE). --Irpen 17:40, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Your country should still be a part of Russia anyway. 24.183.178.138 03:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

The official name is Odessa - you can see official city page --Assedo 12:18, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Not really. They can claim all they want about their official languages, but there is only one state language in Ukraine and it is Ukrainian, so all other claims are not official. —dima/talk/ 18:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Like really though, Since when was Russian ever Declared the offical Language of Modern Ukraine? I Realize that Russian is spoken more Fluently in Ukraine(Which is Terribly sad, one of the bad things the USSR Brought.), but Why spell Everything the Russian way? The City's name is Odesa. The only reason that it is spelled the Russian way is because people in the English Speaking world don't know the Difference between Russia and Ukraine. Until Russian is Declared either an offical state language, or a de facto, it should be written in the Ukrainian form. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.148.69.57 (talk) 07:51, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The official name is Odesa, which is what should be used in the article. The general naming convention adopted on Ukranian cities (see L'viv or Kharkiv)is to adopt the official name. An exception may possibly be justified for Kyiv / Kiev, as the capital city (in the same way that Rome is used rather than Roma), but not, surely, for Odesa / Odessa.

Skinsmoke (talk) 12:23, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Look, silly contemporary nationalist language arguments in Ukraine are irrelevant to what the overwhelming majority of the English speaking world calls "Odessa".

The Ukraine/Russian debate is an inexpensive ploy of politicians to instill a sense of patriotism in a country which is barely 10 years old. It is the same tactic used most recently by Georgia, but which has been used by all countries. It is a time honored way to make the population docile, obedient and less critical.

Look at the way Ukraine is constructing expensive nationalist monuments while many Ukrainians starve.

This entire language debate looks so ridiculous to non-Ukrainians.

Please take irrelevant nationalist arguments elsewhere. Odessaukrain (talk) 22:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Odessa should move to Odesa with one s. --68.37.192.216 (talk) 00:16, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

I support renaming the article from Odessa to Odesa - the current spelling with two s supports the colonial efforts of the former Russian Empire. I am not sure if any country would like to be constantly reminded of its colonial past, particularly when we are talking about Wikipedia as the most commonly used first source of information worldwide. Oleh k (talk) 11:11, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Redirect to Odesa

Hello. Current, Official, Native (Ukrainian) name of the city is Odesa. Need links to the Supreme Council which represents every vote-legible citizen?

As for "widespread" English usage – although being completely irrelevant - Odesa is more widespread: Before accusations on "cherrypicking" pour in - check how many languages use latin alphabet, and see how many of them use Odessa (for one reason or another). But we only concern ourselves with English, right? And we're only talking about Odesa in Ukraine (and not the one in Texas), right?

Odesa - 1,070,000 http://www.google.com.sg/search?hl=en&num=100&q=odesa+%2Bukraine&btnG=Search&meta=lr%3Dlang_en&aq=f&oq= Odessa - 655,000 http://www.google.com.sg/search?hl=en&num=100&q=odessa+%2Bukraine&btnG=Search&meta=lr%3Dlang_en&aq=f&oq=

Any questions?

Redirect OR at least refrain from vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.156.14.200 (talk) 15:22, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Odessa is Russian way of spelling Ukrainian city Odesa. It should be moved back to ODESA with one S!!! --68.37.192.216 (talk) 00:18, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia uses the most common English spelling. That is based on a number of factors and definitely not on google searches, which are worthless. Usage in English atlases, encyclopedias, scholarly journals, secondary works, etc. all point at this time to Odessa being the most common English spelling. It doesn't matter what Ukraine likes (I lived there for a year actually), but only what common English usage is. Until common English usage shifts to Odesa, the article must remain at Odessa. (Taivo (talk) 02:11, 18 June 2009 (UTC))

So, US BGN database shows Odesa as BGN standard and Odessa only as variant. BGN is supposed classification is supposed to be an objective reflection of current usage of the city name in English. Therefore, what else do we need before the change is made? Anyone objects? What else do we need to do in order to change the city name on the main article?--Andriy155 (talk) 23:04, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus for move and edging toward consensus against. Moreover, the citation to atlases/maps and BGN are unconvincing as indicators of what English sources show as the common name. A look at a cross section of English newspaper sources, for example, resricted to the last five years and to English news sources returns results showing approximately a 3:1 ratio favoring the English usage of Odessa over Odesa ([4] vs. [5] and a 2:1 result for books [6] vs. [7], and even completely raw search engine results are far more useful and accurate in the sphere of usage of a name in sources, than they are for other purposes such as determining notability of a topic. Here we are concerned with what general English usage is because we want the most people searching for an article by a particular name to reach their intended target directly and without surprise, rather than concerned with reliability of the sources found through a search.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 01:07, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

Odessa → Odesa — Current, Official, Native (Ukrainian) name of the city is Odesa. This name is also shown as Standard in US BGN geographic names database. Odessa is only shown as variant. This is a reflection of wide-spread usage of Odesa rather than Odesa in the English Language. Andriy155 (talk) 23:21, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose. The important thing is the English name of the city which is Odessa. (The US BGN geographic names database merely transliterates native names.) Even the city's website seems to agree on Odessa for English. — AjaxSmack 03:00, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually, this is not true, BGN reflects the most common usage of the name in English language.--Andriy155 (talk) 07:10, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Some BGN standards are "Firenze" for Florence, "Köln" for Cologne, "Moskva" for Moscow, and "København" for Copenhagen. Not exactly an indication of common usage in English. Jafeluv (talk) 09:05, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me there is a wee confusion here. BGN database lists all existing names fo a geographic entity. However, it also has markers (BGN Standard, Conventional and Variant). BGN Standard, in the absense of conventional, refers to the most common name of the city currently used in the English language. The variant is alternative spelling, which is also used and is primarilly transliteration from the language of the origin. However, when conventional marker appears, it takes priority over the standard marker. To take your examples: Moskva, København and Köln all show up in BGN as standard; however, Moscow, Copenhagen and Cologne all show up as Conventional. So this latter set is mostly used in English language press. For Odesa this is not the case. Odesa shows up as standard and Odessa as a variant, not conventional. Therefore, according to BGN, Odesa is most widely used in English language.--Andriy155 (talk) 23:37, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:UE and WP:COMMONNAME 76.66.203.200 (talk) 04:28, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Funny enough, I support for the very same reasons :)--Andriy155 (talk) 06:43, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

• Strong oppose this silly edit war over names has gone on for years. Odessaukrain (talk) 06:19, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. I lived in western Ukraine for a year and understand the issue and the sensitivities of Ukrainians to Russian spellings. Some Ukrainian articles are at the Ukrainian spelling (Rivne and Uzhhorod, for example) so it is confusing. Rivne and Uzhhorod are rarely used in English, however, and both are clearly within the Ukrainian-speaking part of Ukraine. Odessa is not like Rivne and Uzhhorod since many English speakers actually know where it is (the Potemkin Stairs scene from "Battleship Potemkin" is well-known, for example). The Russian spelling is longstanding in English. But another reason why Odessa should stay where it is is that the city itself is part of Russian-speaking Ukraine, so the majority of inhabitants of Odessa actually spell it with two с's (Одесса). (Taivo (talk) 06:32, 27 June 2009 (UTC))

Yet, Google ranking shows that Odesa dominates Odessa and US BGN shows that Odesa is used more often in English than Odessa. How about that? As for Odesa being part of Russian-speaking Ukraine, how about changing Lviv to Lwow and Uzhhorod to Ungvar? I would be curious to see what Ukrainian speaking Odesits have to say about your statement. On behalf of all Ukrainians I apologise for confusing you with the usage of the Ukrainian rather than Russian language in the names of Ukrainian cities. Also, following your logic, Lviv is not known to Western Europeans and North Americans?--Andriy155 (talk) 07:10, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not confused, Andriy155, I understand the difference between Ukrainian and Russian and the difference between the regions of Ukraine where Russian is the predominant language (southern and eastern) and where Ukrainian is the predominant language (western). Ukrainian-speaking residents of Odessa are in the distinct minority. Lviv and Uzhhorod are both in the Ukrainian region and neither is widely known outside Ukraine. Most English speakers are only really familiar with Kiev and Odessa (with Yalta a close third). Google searches are worthless as indicators of usage and always have been. They are not reliable. Most common usage in English is determined by a wide variety of references. Right now, the spellings of Kiev and Odessa are slowly (and I emphasize slowly) shifting to Kyiv and Odesa, but they are very, very far from common at this time. In school, American and British students are still learning the Russian spellings. Wikipedia only reflects most common English usage and despite your nationalist feelings and desires, that is still Kiev and Odessa. It takes much, much more than Google hits and BGN usage to change (and prove) most common English usage. (Taivo (talk) 10:24, 27 June 2009 (UTC))

Really? From my impression, Kyiv, Lviv and Yalta are mostly known, not Odesa. No offence to the Odesits though. I completely agree with you regarding the role of WP as reflective rather than prescriptive. Hence, it was really important when BGN, which is not politically affiliated with Russians or Ukrainians to actually show that Odesa is more common in English language than Odessa. --Andriy155 (talk) 23:40, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not bound by any government proclamations, but only by common English usage, which you haven't proven. BGN is not a measure of common English usage, but is a reflection of government policy. That is different. Just because the US government supports Ukrainian spelling doesn't make it standard usage. You must look at a wide variety of encyclopedias, atlases, media usage, academic usage, etc. in order to put together a proposal for changing the name. Just stating that Ukrainian spelling is X and the BGN uses X doesn't make a convincing case for common English usage. You've used two or three data points out of hundreds of possible ones. You must make a much stronger case for Odesa as the most common English usage before other editors here at Wikipedia will even begin to listen to you. (Taivo (talk) 01:35, 28 June 2009 (UTC))

And again, I am repeating what has already been written here: "A quick trip to Chapters, local chain of bookstores, showed that most maps use Odesa and not Odessa.". As for BGN, my understanding is that this not something dictated by the American government. Let me give you an example. US government has been using Kyiv instead of Kiev for some time now. Yet BGN clearly states Kiev as conventional name. This is not the case for Odesa. Please specify the exact number of sources required to convince you that usage of Odesa has grown enough to overshadow Odessa. Just saying we need much stronger case is rather vague, don't you think?--Andriy155 (talk) 03:18, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Note as well that almost all sources used in this article use the "Odessa" spelling. Jafeluv (talk) 16:03, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

• Support just checked my Hammond Map atlas. Says Odesa. Are you saying they're wrong? Of course, if Hammond Map is run by people blinded with "nationalist feelings and desires", then we should of course exclude them. Ostap 17:11, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

The Hammond company also calls Macedonia "F.Y.R.O.M." (and is the only American map publisher that does), so companies have POVs as well. Change of usage is not an overnight thing. Sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. It cannot be judged on one or two sources, it must be judged across a very broad spectrum of sources. For example, modern media still use the Russian spelling. You've got to have a wide range of evidence, not just Ukrainian official policy plus a tiny handful of sources. (Taivo (talk) 17:56, 27 June 2009 (UTC))

A quick trip to Chapters, local chain of bookstores, showed that most maps use Odesa and not Odessa.--Andriy155 (talk) 23:39, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

• Strong support I reckon the matter at hand is much simpler than that. As a former linguist and now a natural scientist, I can confidently state that English spelling of personal names from a give county should be solely based on the pronunciation of the names in the language of the country. Ukrainian is the official language of Ukraine. In Ukrainian language pronunciation of the personal name to denote the city of Odesa does not have the elongated s which the Odessa spelling suggests. Therefore, Odessa does not accurately reflect the pronunciation of the name of the city and therefore should be changed to Odesa. This spelling does not only agree with the one found in most of the contemporary maps and atlases, but also is in line with the spelling on the road signs alongside highways in Ukraine.--Odmytrenko (talk) 04:37, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

The official language of Ukraine is, indeed, Ukrainian, but the majority language of Odessa is Russian. And, Andriy155, you have a tiny number of sources for your assertions. Wikipedia is not tied to BGN or any other government source. You must prove your assertions with an abundance of evidence. Doing a Google search and popping down to Chapters does not make a convincing case. (Taivo (talk) 04:49, 28 June 2009 (UTC))

And once again I ask you what abundance of evidence means. Are you being vague on purpose? As to your definition of 'Language of Majority', give me a source for that - preferably statistics from a census. Good luck to the tourists looking for OdesSa on the road signs in Ukraine. With regards to BGN, as explained above, BGN reflects common usage in English language and does not prescribe it. Please explain why this should be ignored.--Andriy155 (talk) 04:53, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

I are ignoring my point about BGN. It is only one data point. Your Hammond atlas is only one data point. Your trip to Chapters doesn't have a list of atlases and maps you consulted--they might have all been published by Hammond. If so, then it is still just one data point. Read this for more guidance on the kinds of evidence that you will need for a convincing proposal to use Odesa as the spelling. And my wife is Ukrainian, I have travelled in Odessa, I have seen the signs and heard the language in Odessa. The majority of people in Odessa speak Russian as their first language. It was a city founded by the Russians and not by Ukrainians. It is not much different than Dnipropetrovsk--founded by Catherine the Great at about the same time. (Taivo (talk) 05:05, 28 June 2009 (UTC))

Not sure why you are saying 'your Hammond atlas'. This was not written by me but by another user. I will go back to Chapters and will list the maps and atlases. please let me know how many sources would suffice and whether or not you need photos or scans. Notice that you are still being vague and do not state what exactly is needed: number of sources would be great. You have not explained why BGN should be ignored- they already do a review of how common a name is. As for the road signs, have you really seen any English-language official highway signs saying Odessa? I do not mean to offend, but I do not believe that. Please provide a source. Here is what I am talking about: http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.mostobud.com.ua/content/images/f7e132855a4c70268535b7478d14f75a.jpg&imgrefurl=http://euro2012highway.blogspot.com/2007/10/blog-post_25.html&usg=__KO5Y2342o050TnGjKIMBtiq-AfQ=&h=414&w=700&sz=127&hl=uk&start=8&sig2=SSOUxz5GHxgv7qhgyky6eQ&um=1&tbnid=dqmjbE8J1tVNGM:&tbnh=83&tbnw=140&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%25D0%25BA%25D0%25B8%25D1%2597%25D0%25B2%2B%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B4%25D0%25B5%25D1%2581%25D0%25B0%2Bodesa%2B%25D0%25B4%25D0%25BE%25D1%2580%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B3%25D0%25B0%26hl%3Duk%26lr%3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.gentoo:uk-UA:official%26hs%3DVAn%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1&ei=P_1GSu2RN434Ma_w0YYC I am including this long url for the image so that I don't get accused of photoshoping anything. As for Dnipropetrovsk, go ahead and start a campaign to change the city name on WP as well. But please provide non-vague reasons for that. Also, I am missing your point about the city being founded by Russians. Most of the city got developed bya Frenchman, actually, but that's besides the point. Some claim that Kyiv was founded by vikings. Why not change its name to Konugard?! --Andriy155 (talk) 05:21, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

By the way, in similar situations, Kharkiv and Dnipropetrovsk have been chosen for WP over their Russian-language counter-parts. Why should odesa be any different?--Andriy155 (talk) 06:08, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Finally, to your point about Russian-speakrs having a majority in Odesa. I searched on Wikipedia and here is what I found. Here is a map showing percentage of native Ukrainian speakers according to the 2001 census: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ukraine_cencus_2001_Ukrainian.svg and here is the maps for native Russian speakers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ukraine_cencus_2001_Russian.svg I must admit, it is quite close, but the share of Ukrainian speakers is greater. I would encourage to provide facts and figures and avoid unsupported statements like 'my wife is Ukrainian'. Personally, howevere, I believe that the decision of what name the article should bear should depend on how wide the name is used in English and not on the number of Russian speakers as you are suggesting. --Andriy155 (talk) 06:37, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

• In a democratic country with equal representation, an official language is the language of the majority. All the official documents, official correspondence, court trials, higher education and alike as well as street signs, advertisement, labels, product descriptions, brand names and so forth in accordance to law must be in and without exception are reserved for the official language. A democratic government will support any other language spoken by any given group of people residing on the territory of that country. However, any such language will be restricted to a private sphere. Therefore, if Russian is the majority language in Odesa, it will not be reflected in the official name of the city. By pleading my case, I make a broader appeal to rid this encyclopedia from bias and personal preference. Instead it should always be governed by logic. The other day I have been to the COOP bookstore at Harvard Square and checked the available maps of Ukraine. All of those I have seen provided spelling based on the Ukrainian pronunciation, often supplying a phonetic transcription in the brackets. I do not see why Wikipedia should be any different. --Odmytrenko (talk) 05:56, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

You two guys are just spitting into the wind right now. I have provided you with a place to look for marshalling your evidence ([8]) in accordance with Wikipedia policy. It's not my fault if you are not willing to gather appropriate evidence according to that policy. Until you can convince a majority of editors with properly gathered and presented evidence, then you are just wasting your time with this effort and it will fail again. (Taivo (talk) 07:46, 28 June 2009 (UTC))

If you are actually serious about presenting evidence and not just whining because Wikipedia doesn't follow Ukrainian spelling for this city, then look at this as a good example of how to gather and present evidence. (Taivo (talk) 07:49, 28 June 2009 (UTC))

This is worth a shot. Thanks for the link. I would encourage you to refrain from the comments like 'just whining because Wikipedia doesn't follow Ukrainian spelling for this city' in future. There is a lot that can be said about stating that somebody has a Ukrainian wife as a reference for the proportion of Russian speakers in a city.--Andriy155 (talk) 08:43, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

My apologies for the "whining" comment. I deal with several nationalist issues here and it's not often that someone is actually serious about pursuing the work needed to actually prove common English usage. Usually it is just "whining". But I've been in Odessa and walked its streets and visited its markets. The language you hear all around you is Russian, not Ukrainian. Sure the street signs have to be in Ukrainian, but the language that surrounds you on people's tongues is Russian. It's a Russian-speaking town like Donetsk, Kharkiv, Sevastopol, Dnipropetrovsk, and the other eastern and southern Ukrainian cities. But good luck in your research. (Taivo (talk) 14:17, 28 June 2009 (UTC))

I have to acknowledge the disrespectful tone of the user Taivo. It is unacceptable that learned discussion in this esteemed encyclopedia is carried out in not an impartial manner. I ask the user to refrain from any further offensive comments.--Odmytrenko (talk) 16:04, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

• The attached links present evidence for the Odesa spelling: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/UP.html http://go.hrw.com/atlas/norm_htm/ukraine.htm <http://www.oxfordreference.com/views/ENTRY.html?subview=Main&entry=t141.e265-s2> http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/ua.htm Searching GNS does as well: https://www1.nga.mil/Pages/Default.aspx —Preceding unsigned comment added by Odmytrenko (talk • contribs) 16:29, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
• Here is an additional source of evidence: http://www.rada.gov.ua/translit --Odmytrenko (talk) 16:40, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Odmytrenko, just adding a link or two isn't going to make your case (and please note the difference between your tone and Andriy155's above). Look at the level of evidence that is necessary by clicking on the link I provided above. That's the minimum standard which you must reach in order to demonstrate common English usage. (Taivo (talk) 17:12, 28 June 2009 (UTC))

One further note about evidence: Any website that ends in .ua is pretty useless. We're talking common English usage--that means usage in the United States and Britain principally. It doesn't matter what the Ukrainian government wants people to think. Since this is the English Wikipedia, it's only about what the several hundred million native speakers of English think and what spelling they use. (Taivo (talk) 17:17, 28 June 2009 (UTC))

• Strongly support. This is the same debate as about Kiev vs. Kyiv. Ukraine has adopted official names for cities in 1994, if I recall correctly. That spelling has to be respected - as it is with maps in English produced after 1994. Oleh k (talk) 18:04, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
• To user Taivo, please, discontinue your unprofessional emotional style of correspondence.--Odmytrenko (talk) 18:07, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not being emotional. I've simply pointed out that the evidence you have presented so far is inadequate to prove common English usage. I've provided a link above to show you what minimum level of evidence is necessary to adequately prove that the common English spelling of Odessa has changed. It's up to you to provide the evidence or to continue to accept the status quo, which is the Russian spelling. And Oleh, Ukrainian national policy is immaterial for Wikipedia (see WP:NCON specifically for the statement that political considerations have nothing to do with how Wikipedia names an article). Wikipedia is not the official arm of any government or organization. It simply reflects common English usage. (Taivo (talk) 19:12, 28 June 2009 (UTC))

I agree with Odmytrenko. I also find your tone emotional and somewhat offensive. All of your statements are based on your anecdotal experience (and I can provide a lot anecdotal experience as well and so?). You failed to provide any concrete data or figures. Your statements are confusing. At first you state that you've seen road signs and (if I understand you correctly) they were in Russian. Now you are saying "they must be in Ukrainian". Besides, as has been pointed out before, Wikipedia reflects common usage in the English language rather the language of majority in specific region (which according to the sources I showed is actually Ukrainian). Finally, your comment regarding nationalistic issues is also borderline offensive. There are quite a lot of people for whom keeping it status quo (i.e. spelling induced by the colonising power) is normal but trying Wikipedia to reflect the clear shift in spelling that occurred over the last 5-7 years is nationalism. I would recommend that you avoided such terms and did not rush into such conclusions. Otherwise, I can start saying your position is: revisionist, imperialistic and pro-Russian with regards to Ukrainian issues and therefore nationalistic from Russian viewpoint. Do you want to go down that road?--Andriy155 (talk) 19:29, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not at all emotional about this. I will just continue to point you to the requirement that you must prove that Odessa is not the most common English usage. I've given you a link (at least twice now) to show you what evidence you need to gather and how to present it. Wikipedia naming policy is crystal clear--most common English usage. It has nothing to do with "colonialism" or "national language" or anything else to do with political issues. It is simply "most common English usage". And I never said I saw road signs in Russian in Odessa--I said simply signs. Of course, street signs, being official, are going to be in Ukrainian. But I've said everything that needs to be said here. Wikipedia's policy is to ignore nationalistic preferences, official languages, national pronouncements, and government policies. The only thing that matters is common English usage. In order to change the title of this article, you must prove your point. I've given you a link to a good example of the data you need to gather and how to present it. It's up to you now if you want to do the work to prove your point. (Taivo (talk) 19:41, 28 June 2009 (UTC))

This makes sense. What does not make sense is how the discussion by Taivo about what he heard on the streets and his wife being Ukrainian is relevant to establishing the most common English usage.--Andriy155 (talk) 20:19, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

My experience in Odessa wasn't relevant for common English usage. It was relevant to establish that Odessa is more Russian-speaking than Ukrainian-speaking. (Taivo (talk) 20:33, 28 June 2009 (UTC))

Glad this was sorted out. By the way, anecdotal evidence cannot be used to establish anything.--Andriy155 (talk) 20:59, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Name of the source	Odessa	Odesa
Oxford Atlas of the World		X
The Times Comprehensive Atlas of the World		X
National Geographic Visual Atlas of the World		X
DK Great World Atlas		X
HarperColin New World Atlas		X
Hammond fifth Edition World Atlas		X
Rand McNally Classic World Atlas		X
Ukraine - The Essential Guide to Customs and Culture		X
Lonely Planet - Ukraine		X

--Odmytrenko (talk) 19:15, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

That's a start, but only a start. Look at the link I provided above and you will see that there is a great deal more evidence for you to gather before you convince anyone that common English usage has changed. My suggestion is to create a separate workpage so that you can gather the evidence in one place without cluttering the discussion here (like was done at the link I provided above). Then when you have gathered enough evidence, you can simply provide a link here. That way you don't clutter this page with your working data. (Taivo (talk) 19:22, 28 June 2009 (UTC))

We will collaborate on this. At least, so far we have four people supporting and four against.--Andriy155 (talk) 19:33, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Good idea to collaborate. Good luck. (Taivo (talk) 19:41, 28 June 2009 (UTC))

I would like to know how the decision is made. How is responsible for making the final move from Odessa to Odesa? Who exactly needs to be convinced about the change of use? Why is no evidence in support of the current naming provided in the format which I was requested to follow? --Odmytrenko (talk) 19:43, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

(ec) But remember that Wikipedia doesn't run on "votes", but on consensus building. A consensus isn't just a 5-4 majority. A consensus is where the overwhelming mass of opinion coalesces around a solution. 9-1 would be a consensus, 5-4 isn't. If you amass good data, then the majority of editors will look at it and say, "That's good and convincing" and a "vote" becomes unnecessary. It's all about good, reliable, verifiable evidence and a good presentation of it based on Wikipedia policy. (Taivo (talk) 19:48, 28 June 2009 (UTC))

Right now there is no consensus, so no move is justified. Once a consensus is reached an admin will oversee the move. The article stays where it is because the "mover" needs to prove that a move is justified. Without someone proving that a move is justified, then articles stay where they are based on status quo. This has been discussed several times in the past already and the consensus has strongly been in favor of the article staying right here. You have to prove that English common usage has changed. (Taivo (talk) 19:48, 28 June 2009 (UTC))

You've got a tough row to hoe right now because the city itself seems to prefer the Odessa spelling in English. (Taivo (talk) 19:52, 28 June 2009 (UTC))

Sorry, now I am really confused. Taivo earlier on this page wrote: 'One further note about evidence: Any website that ends in .ua is pretty useless. We're talking common English usage--that means usage in the United States and Britain principally'. So?

Your evidence supporting a change of spelling here should not rely on .ua addresses. There's nothing confusing about that. But when Odessa itself uses "Odessa" as the English spelling, that's pretty indicative of how common the Russian spelling is. Indeed, the title of Odessa's official website is Одесса, even on the Ukrainian version of the website. But your evidence must be of common English usage. There's nothing confusing about that. (Taivo (talk) 20:33, 28 June 2009 (UTC))

This is clearly strange: no site in the ua domain can be used to argue for 'Odesa' but can be used to argue for Odessa. Don't you think this is strange? As for the Ukrainian page, are you now going to argue that it is Одесса in Ukrainian? The fact that they have a banner with Одесса on the Ukrainian page actually shows that they page has not been checked for errors and typos. Therefore, this site cannot be used to establish anything regarding the official spelling of the city in any language.--Andriy155 (talk) 20:59, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

As I said above, the status quo has so much evidence that it is incumbent on the proponents of a move to prove that English usage has changed. The official site of the city of Odessa is not the only proof of "Odessa". And it is still true that using .ua references will not make the case for a move. (Taivo (talk) 00:22, 29 June 2009 (UTC))

• Strong Oppose. Per Wikipedia:NC (geographic names) - Encyclopedia Britannica = Odessa. Also odessa.ua domain name. As well - in contrast to claim made by Andriy155 - Odessa is widely used in all areas - like postal addresses, company names (Odesa Port, Odessa Hotel), universities (Odessa National Mechnikov Univecity , Odessa National Polytechnical). Per guideline listed when widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. Resorting to official name must be done only in case if no widely accepted English name exists. But as I've presented evidences - Odessa name is widely used. Lonely BGN or maps references should not be taken in considerations. Proper Google Test is "Odessa Ukraine" = 499,000 vs. "Odesa Ukraine" = 38,100. Google test without quotes will try to automatically correct Odesa to Odessa, but not from Odessa to Odesa. --TAG (talk) 23:21, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose. This is being argued using atlases and the Standard Transliteration entries of BGN's Geonet. As WP:NCGN#BGN notes, GEOnet is not a good guide to English usage unless it is discussing a conventional name; it uses Frankfurt am Main and Firenze. So do many atlases.

In so doing, they are acting sensibly for their purposes, not for ours - which include telling foreigners what to call Odessa in English with a hope of not confusing monoglot anglophones. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:52, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

The provided evidence with entries from Oxford Atlas, The Times, and National Geographic is very convincing. Also, the argument with the Russian spelling (Odessa) reflecting the colonial linguistic policies of the Russian Empire has to be strongly taken into account. I don't know if any formerly colonized country would like for the rest of the world to use in encyclopedic entries (such as on Wikipedia) the names of its cities in the language of the colonizer. To my knowledge, the article about "Alma Ata" on Wikipedia is being automatically redirected to "Almaty" and I don't see anywhere any discussion about it. We should do the same with Odesa: after 1991, consider the official name of the city changed. There are more examples from the Asian countries - former USSR republics - where the old names are not used anymore, although the English speaker would be more comfortable with using them. Wikipedia did a great job implementing those changes by moving the articles and should remain consistent in this regard with this issue as well. Oleh k (talk) 11:24, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Official Ukrainian policy matters nothing here and the atlas information is insufficient to prove common English usage. And, as I mentioned above, other stuff in Wikipedia is not a sufficient argument (Rivne and Uzhhorod, for example). Your argument is still seriously weakened by the simple fact that the official Odessa website spells their name "Odessa" in English, and the banner spells it Одесса. If the people of Odessa spell their name Odessa, it's hard to argue for "Odesa". (Taivo (talk) 15:24, 30 June 2009 (UTC))

What does the banner have to do with anything? It is written in Russian (there are some other Russian words written on it). The same Russian-language banner appears on the Ukrainian and English pages. That does not mean that Ukrainian spelling Одесса. Good luck! ps Please avoid generalisations like 'people from Odesa spell something'. You have not conducted a poll nor quoted one here. --Andriy155 (talk) 15:49, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

If the city government of Odessa is using the Russian spelling (after all, they pay for the website), doesn't that say something about Odessa being primarily a Russian-speaking city? Anyway, whether the website spells it Odessa or not, you still have marshalled very, very little evidence for a change in English common usage. (Taivo (talk) 16:02, 30 June 2009 (UTC))

Do you get a kick out of repeating the same thing over and over? Once again: you failed to provide any evidence about the number of Russian speakers in Odesa. I have provided you with census results. You simply ignored that. Way to go for someone from the academia. Also, I have no idea why you keep on bringing the issue about the Russian speakers in the first place here since the issue is irrelevant, as you have admitted yourself. Please stop flooding this post with irrelevant and unsupported material.--Andriy155 (talk) 16:47, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Andriy, this is a warning about civility. (Taivo (talk) 16:55, 30 June 2009 (UTC))

Civility?! Well, you can warn me all you want: the fact remains you keep on repeating the same point that even you admitted has nothing to do with the subject of the discussion. So, again, I'd encourage that you stop 'educating' people about Wikipedia rules (like you did on my talk page) and actually start posting relevant material which is supported by facts. Furthermore, I also warn you about civility regarding your earlier statements. I was not the only one who found them offensive (see comment from Odmytrenko above).--Andriy155 (talk) 22:22, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, and I quickly apologized for my single comment. Is there an equivalent apology in your remarks. No. I don't see an apology for your personal attacks. And the burden of evidence is still on your shoulders. (Taivo (talk) 23:30, 30 June 2009 (UTC))

Oleh k, your arguments about occupation work against you. Odessa since it's foundation was a port - there many cultures and nationalities lived and worked. It was named Odessa since it's creation. Russian Empire had no problems at all with people specking French, German, Italian, Greek and many others languages. In contrast - after 1990's there are huge pressure from Kiev governments to use Ukrainian-only. So - then specking about intervention - it's about current state of affairs - not past. Debates on Wikipedia like this one - is just one more effort to change things how they were for long time (like 200 years) - simply because some officials in Kiev decided so. Will be next step of renaming Odessa in Ukraine - renaming many others Odessa named after Ukrainian one like in Odessa, Texas, Odessa, Delaware or Odessa, Washington? It will be strange to see that there will be many cities named Odessa, but main city change name to Odesa (because of no-longer "occupied" by Russian empire) --TAG (talk) 16:48, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose. With all due respect to Ukrainian sensitivities, we are used to it as Odessa, the Russian speaking Ukrainians of this Ukrainian city spell it as such and just about every other English/American official and unofficial language source spells it as such. (Also the former significant Greek presence also spelled it with two 's' (Οδησσός), but that is just a detail in the overall argument). Politis (talk) 15:57, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose, "Odessa" seems still to be the common English form. Note that atlases (as cited above) are not necessarily good evidence to the contrary: many geographic atlases have editorial policies of sticking to official local forms and their transliterations much more than it is our policy to do; they are the ones that will also present Rome as Roma, Athens as Athēnai or Athina, and Moscow as Moskva. We nevertheless stick with Rome, Athens and Moscow. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:26, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Removal of relevant links

Several very relevant links have been removed, links which have appear to have been on this page for years.[9] These include several guides, a link with panaromic maps, a link to dmoz, and a history of odessa. I can understand why hotel or room rental links are deleted, but these sites contain valuable and encyclopedic material. 69.138.243.26 (talk) 04:54, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Potemkin Stairs

After visiting Potemkin Stairs today (08-31-09) I have to assume the picture of "Potemkin Stairs" on this site has been doctored. The shadowed images of the people on the stairs are smaller than any average sized person would be, giving the impression the stairs are wider and longer than they actually are. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.124.253.242 (talk) 20:52, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Removed

The following was removed from the article:

One of the last Ukrainian Jewish authors who write in Yiddish, Aleksandr Abramovic Bejderman, born in 1949, also lives in Odessa. He writes in Ukrainian and Russian, too, but the main part of his work is actually written in Yiddish.

Signed: Travb (talk) 17:29, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

And why was this removed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.61.178 (talk) 17:10, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

population history needed

id like to know historical census figures for Odessa could any one say when the population first reached 10,000 or 100,000 people ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.51.212.6 (talk) 01:39, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Catacombs vs. Subway

Although widely believed locally, it's doubtful as stated in the article that the Catacombs are a serious impediment to a subway system. Subways are routinely built in much worse conditions and much deeper excavations, even underneath major water features, and limestone is actually very conducive to tunneling (as evidenced by the very existence of the Catacombs in the first place.) More likely such a system is just economically infeasible because Odessa isn't large enough to make it worth the investment. Dnipropetrovsk is the smallest city in Ukraine to have any sort of underground system, and it is a town of similar population but considerably larger area. Even so, that system only has 6 stations and 8km of track, making it one of the smallest underground systems in the world and a questionable cost/benefit ratio. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.60.161.98 (talk) 18:20, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Sviatoslav Richter

As far as I know, Richter was of German origin, not Jewish. --Tamas 20:03, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

On Richter's page, it says he was born in Zhitomir, not in Odessa. I am not sure which one is correct, but unmistakinly one of them is wrong. 81.245.194.9 (talk) 21:30, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Odessa, Ukraine

Hi.

I wonder who decided that this city should be spelled with one 's'?

I lived in Odessa for 40 years and never heard about spelling the city name with one 's'. It was always 'ss' - ODESSA, O-D-E-S-S-A.

Regards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.57.150.68 (talk) 13:21, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Hello everyone! There's a point that I believe must be brought up about Odessa's 19th century history. The quote shows the area Moldavanka has been formed on the site of a old Romanian colony. However, if attention is paid, the colony was of Moldvavian immigrants(hence the name). Romania has been formed in 1859(absorbing Moldavia), while the colonization was going on for a few decades before. Since Moldavia and Bessarabia are close geographically to Odessa its logical that there would be more of them coming than from other Romanian-dialect regions. Ethnically they called themselves Moldavian, which explains the name Moldavanka. BTW, its interesting that outside of Galician Ukraine(Chernivsti), all Latin-descent Ukrainians refer to themselves as Moldavans. I didnt put the adjective 'Romanian', since they never used it to describe their origins. I have edited the ethnic adjective, yet local gatekeeper has changed it almost instantly. I want to challenge it to help recognize the role of Moldovan people in Odessa's history.I hope to see some discussion. Thanks, Dmitry —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.112.130.185 (talk) 07:23, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Romania did not absorbed Moldavia, it emerged from it. Just like the people of Wallachia, the inhabitants called themselves "Romanian", an ethnonym to which they attached politica/geographical identification terms: "moldovean", "muntean", "ungurean" (i.e. "from the Hungarian state"), etc. For the "Maldavans" of Ukraine, see Moldovenism. Best! ITSENJOYABLE (talk) 17:06, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Spelling with ONE "S" is an official Ukrainian spelling. In English speaking world a lot of Odessas exists - all with double "S", so actual article name is an English (not Ukrainian) one. Bogomolov.PL (talk) 21:01, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Language and ethnicity

To what degree, and in what spheres, has Ukrainian supplanted Russian in Odessa since 1991? The article indicates a particulrly Odessa accented Russian. Is this less true today? There is reference to the majority of the Jews leaving. Beg pardon, but the mayor is Hurvits? I am assuming Jewish? Also there is reference to in-migration of Ukrainians from the countryside. Is there a source for population by ethnicity or nationality? Jd2718 19:07, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Ukrainian is not popular in Odessa. Some goverment signs use it, but generally almost everyone speaks Russian. Even ukrainian maps (like the Mista Ukrainy series) use the russian name of the city (Odessa not Odesa) and russian place names, not to mention all other economic activity. The ukrainization of Odessa has failed to date. However this does not mean that Odessa wants to be part of Russia. The people don't want that. They would like the Ukraine goverment to stop the "ukrainization" (change names on signs, on stations - back) and give Russian an official status in the area. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.255.254.41 (talk) 10:45, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Stop lying Russian pig. Ukrainian is not popular because of long time Rusification not only in Odesa, but in all Ukraine. Time will show if Ukrainian is popular in Odesa among Ukrainian or not. And don't say that Ukrainization of Odesa has failed. You failed to be born Russian хохол  :) --70.111.79.146 (talk) 17:47, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

This kind of racist abuse is illegal in many countries. I have posted a warning on the IP editor's talk page.--Toddy1 (talk) 18:14, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Russians and Ukrainians are the same race and almost exactly the same ethnicity even. The only difference is a minor difference in their dialects and the fact that they now have two different nationalities. But Russian-Ukrainian civilization even began in Kiev (They were the same people, called the Rus), so anti-Russian bigotry from a Ukrainian is hardly racist. I think the word "racist" is much abused these days. A better accusation would simply be "bigoted."

The colours used on the weather box

You may have noticed that two editors have been changing the colours on the weather boxes for Ukrainian cities for the past two months. There is a discussion of what colours they should be at Talk:Lviv#The colours used on the weather box. Please contribute, even if only to say that you don't care, but you just wish they would stop changing it.--Toddy1 (talk) 14:33, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Odessa has humid subtropical climate?

As far as I know Odessa could be hardly classified as subtropical place. With regular snowy winters and average January -0.5 C, it is defeninitely in the temperate zone.Average annual precipiations 451 mm hardly stand for humid climate as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.83.0.211 (talk) 01:36, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

The source cited[10] said "warm temperate".--Toddy1 (talk) 04:45, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Again this is one of the major problems with the Köppen climate classification, especially with the temperature part because it groups New York City and Tampa in as both humid subtropical even though they have a completely different climate (New York City receives snow every year while snow rarely falls in Tampa). It would be classified as humid subtropical because the average is greaterg than -3 C. Even though it receives 451 mm of precipitation per year, it receives just enough precipitation to avoid being classified as semi-arid. It is important to note that humid means that it just receives enough rainfall to be classified as semi-arid. Ssbbplayer (talk) 02:15, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Using the precipitation threshold, average temperature = 10.7 so

• 10.7 x 20 = 214
• 214 + 140 = 334 (less than the average annual precipitation so it is not semi-arid)

Valeria Lukyanova (girl from Odessa who looks like Barbie)

There's currently a dispute now about deletion of the Valeria Lukyanova article, because some editors think that Valeria is not a notable person (i.e. does not meet General Notability Criteria). Please help the rest world to know your opinion about this model here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Valeria Lukyanova (2nd nomination) Innab (talk) 05:53, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

More than 50%

I find the following statement in the article a bit naive and problematic:

In fact, more than 50% of Soviet/modern Russian musicians, composers, producers, etc. are Jews and Ukrainians born in Odessa and other Ukraine's cities.

I mean: has there ever been such a count made? Is there somewhere a list of "Soviet/modern Russian musicians, composers, producers, etc."? The words "in fact" and the number 50% give the impression that this is some scientific fact, but it is more likely just a personal impression and thus very POV. Moreover, this statement is more about Ukraine as a whole than Odessa itself.--Tamas 10:05, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

OK, I got your point, Tamas. Let's reshape the frase retaining its sense. Would you like to do it? As for a count, it is problematic, but in political sense. I just can't be mistaken, seeing characteristic faces and hearing specific Ukrainian and/or Jewish pronounciation, reading the typical lastnames etc. But all these people may be officially recorded as Russians. So this is a big ethnopolitical problem, and I agree with your NPOV appeal. AlexPU

Sure you can't be mistaken? What exactly is a 'characteristic' Ukrainian face? What characterizes a 'specific Jewish pronounciation'? I agree, sometimes it's obvious that a person is Jewish, but could you tell based only on one's surname? (Or tell an Arab or an Armenian from a Jew, if they both dressed alike?) For example, Kilimnik or Bachinski -- are these names Ukrainian or Jewish? (I personally knew both Ukrainians and Jews under the said names, and, looking at my late Professor Bachinski, you'd say he was a true Zaporozhian Cossak, mustashes and all, though he was Jewish, not to mention he spoke Ukrainian better than most Ukrainias I heard.) My point is: if you don't know exactly about every single person's ethnicity, don't rush to any conclusions. --barbatus 18:10, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Names in the first sentence

I would like to know what WP policy or other considerations call for Greek and Turkish name in the very first line of the article. I am not in rush to remove them as I would like to give some time to editors who inserted them to respond. Obviously, similar disputes are not new. I've been following and was involved in several and from that I conclude that these names do belong to the article, but not in the first line. See for example Talk:Kiev/Archive02#Kijów in Kiev article. --Irpen 03:36, July 17, 2005 (UTC)

More about names and history

I agree with Irpen absolutely: it's like the Turks call the city 'Haçibei' still, and the Greeks insist on 'Odessos'!

And what's that talk about 'patronymic' is about? What patronymic? 'Odessos' is patronymic?

Now, where that information about the 14th century Crimean Tartars' trade is from? If memory serves me, the future Odessa region was mentioned only once (or may be twice) in the Latin chronicle by Jan Długosz, that is, that Polish king sent a transport of corn to the besieged by the Turks Constaninople, and it was about a single event, not a regular 'trade'; local lakes (or limans), though, were named as a long-known source of salt. Yet again, there was no mentioning of a town named Hajibei (or any other variation of that name). Have any other references been found? If so, they should be cited.

Plus, I think that the Ancient Greek settlement (name unknown) and Turkish fortress Yeni-Dunia both worth mentioning in the article. Traces of the Greek town were found during the earthworks near the Odessa Cityhall, and it was the Turkish fortress, not just the town Hajibei that was taken during the Russo-Turkish war.

"Between the 1970s and 1990s, the majority of Odessa's Jews migrated to Israel, United States and other Western countries, abandoning entire apartment blocks."

This, excuse me, is utter nonsense. It gives an impression that Jews in Odessa populated those 'entire apartment blocks' they later allegedly abandoned. There were no ghettos in Odessa; Jews (never more than 10% of the city's population in the post-war decades) lived as dispersed as other ethnic groups of Odessa.

--barbatus 17:07, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Hi Barbatus! Could you just correct the article? I am not an expert on Odessa and would have to research first, before doing it myself. Also, I would say that Turkish and Greek names belong somewhere in the article (maybe a separate name Etymology section), so I would rather move them down then delete. But having them in the first line makes little sense. Please check the discussion at talk:Kamianets-Podilskyi on very similar issues. Thanks, --Irpen 17:12, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Hello Irpen! I would make corrections as soon as I'm more familiar with editing guidelines. But I'd sure prefer to hear from the original authors first. --barbatus 18:15, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Just read the Be bold .. but don't be reckless! guidline and proceed with editing. Others, myself included, will correct/revert if you mess up. Cheers, --Irpen 18:49, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, sure ... but, being a historian by my university background, I'd prefer to do some research first, and see what info is available on the Web. --barbatus 19:56, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Selected English Bibliography and Minor Changes

I've added some books about Odessa. The most important is the Odessa: A History by Patricia Herlihy (whom I've even had an honour to meet some years ago).

Now, back to the names. After 1991, some maps changed the English spelling to supposedly Ukrainian, with one 's,' which, I think, is absolutely incorrect. By the same logic, Moscow, for example, should be spelled 'Moskva' and Warsaw must be 'Warszawa.' There is a traditional Western European spelling, used by many authors from Honoré de Balzac (in Père Goriot) to Bee Gees (Odessa), and let's stick to it.

--barbatus 17:17, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

I moved N.American Odessas you added to Odessa (disambiguation). The naming dispute is a long story. Map publishers are free to do what they please and Ukrainian Gov is free to try to legislate English, as it is doing trying to introduce Kyiv and "Odesa". We cannot judge who is "correct". We only have to report a current prevailing usage in WP. While some media outlets followed suite, kiEv and odeSSa for now remain the only two UA major cities mostly spelled unaltered since independence and WP uses the more common name in English as the city name, giving an alternative in parantheses. We had long debates here and they are more or less settled. If you are interested, you can read more here: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ukrainian_subdivisions#How_the_city_name_.D0.94.D0.BDi.D0.BF.D1.80.D0.BE.D0.BF.D0.B5.D1.82.D1.80.D0.BE.D0.B2.D1.81.D1.8C.D0.BA_is_spelled_in_English and next chapters. Also, archives at talk:Kiev have more. Please do not respond at the referred page. It is kept for archival purposes only and all discussions are now at Ukraine portal. Regards, --Irpen 17:52, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

Aha! Now we are talking :)

I wouldn't call it 'References,' for I (let alone previous authors) have not referred to any of those books in the article. Should be 'bibliography' or something like that, I think. It's just what it is: books I suggest to read.

--barbatus 18:42, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

Bibliography is good indeed. Why did you remove the info about feminine name? Is it questionable? As for the rest, I moved it to your talk page to keep this page more connected to its orginal purpose and will respond there too. With best regards, --Irpen 22:18, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

Well, I've been out of touch for some time, so I must refresh my memory on many things, but that particular story sounds very dubious to me regardless. It's probably just an anecdote, albeit curious one, and it can easily be restored if some good source of the story could be found; but it definitely wrong to call a 'masculine' form of a name 'patronymic' in that context (according to the Webster Dictionary, it's 'a name derived from that of the father or a paternal ancestor'); not to mention that in Greek or Latin all city-names were feminine, which, I believe, Her Imperial Majestry knew very well. --barbatus 00:20, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

OK, I see you had your reasons, but instead of having this deleted I will have it moved to talk for comments. --Irpen 01:02, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

In naming the city, the Tsarina, never one to accept subordinance of gender, put her personal stamp on the name by discarding the patronymic and creating the feminine form Odessa.

I'd say I had good reasons, but let's wait for a reference to some reliable source. ... Speaking about anecdotes, I've heard another one, which derives the name 'Odessa' from the word-play: in French, 'enough water' is 'assez d'eau'; if said backwards, it sounds similar to that of the Greek colony's name (and water-related pun makes perfect sense, because Odessa, though situated next to the huge body of water, has very limited fresh water supply). Yet again, it was French, not Ancient Greek, which was spoken at the court. --barbatus 02:49, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Just a suggestion, could we select a shorter list of books to keep them in the article (maybe 2 or 3) and move the rest to a separate list article, titled for example: List of English Bibliography on Odessa, Ukraine or similar. The new article will be linked from Odessa article, but will make a main article look cleaner. Thanks! --Irpen 19:47, August 18, 2005 (UTC) Selected English Bibliography

Think so? Hmmm ... I don't think there will be more entries any time soon. And what do you mean by 'cleaner'? Lemme sleep on it. --barbatus 14:08, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Image Caption

The caption of the image Potemkinstairs.jpg ends with "It is the set for admittedly the most celebrated short sequence ever filmed." How can it possibly be defined as the 'most celebrated short sequence ever filmed'? Such a claim is purely based on opinion. Furthermore, 'admittedly' is misleading, as the sentence is not an admission, merely an unsourced claim of opinion. The caption holds the same informational value without the line in question, so I think it should merely be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Schnabeltier Angriff (talk • contribs)

Template change

the city should be changed to the City in Ukraine template :{{City in Ukraine}}

"Infofobox"

"Information" is misspelt here: Infoformation. I do not know how to correct this. Would an admin or any "wizard" peform this correction?

Italians?

http://www.mellenpress.com/mellenpress.cfm?bookid=6095&pc=9

Timeline of Odessa

What is missing from the city timeline? Please add relevant content. Thank you. -- M2545 (talk) 10:18, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

How much money does one need to live in Ukrania?

what is the cost of living there? If one wanted to move and live there. That would be nice to know.--184.166.178.187 (talk) 10:29, 14 September 2015 (UTC) Ken walters

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Supposed Photo of Greek Remains

The article contains a photograph of supposed Greek remains under glass on Primorsky Blvd. This glass display is widely believed in Odessa to be for illustrative purposes only (depending on one's views either for educational purposes or a cynical attempt by the current government to distance Odessa's history from Russia). The "artifacts" under the glass appear new and unblemished. Does anyone else know differently? Can we get a link to an authoritative source as to the authenticity of the vases etc under the glass? Piquin (talk) 22:57, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

One would need to obtain the archaeological publications for a scientific proof of it, which would take not a little research. You seem to dispute the find based on your own observation? The reason that you give, the Ukrainian government's attempt "to distance Odessa's history from Russia", but that would be a "distancing" of nearly 2.5 millennia! Moreover, it is the Ukrainian goverment which tends to pitch its presence in the borderlands as aboriginal, not the Russians. While not a citation from an archaeological journal, I would note that Philike Etairia Museum of Odessa writes that "Remains of ancient Greek settlements on the shores of the Bay of Odessa were discovered as early as the beginning of the 19th century. Earthworks around Primorskij Boulevard and the Opera House uncovered ancient Greek burials with amphorae and other objects. We currently know of ten sites dated to the Archaic and Classical Greek periods and nine settlements dating to the early centuries AD, on the shores of the Bay of Odessa. Excavations produced large quantities of pottery imported from Athens, Thasos, Chios, Sinope and other Greek centers. The Greek presence in Odessa and in the greater coastline of the Black Sea was continuous." http://hfc-worldwide.org/museums/philike-etairia/ Tachypaidia (talk) 09:04, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Two minutes of searching found this:

http://www.odessaguide.net/sights_excavationsite.ru.html

http://www.odessapassage.com/passage/magazine_details.aspx?id=34187 Tachypaidia (talk) 09:24, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

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"Odesa"

@TaivoLinguist: The form "Odesa", most likely a transliteration of its native Ukrainian name, finds frequent usage in English-language literature as evident by a simple Google Books search. For example, Breaking the Tounge by Matthew D Pauly reads "The city and region of Odesa (Russian: Odessa) [...]". Otherwise, Google also returns 5 million web resources listing "Odesa", of which most are in English.

Another example I gave previously is Google Maps, the most-used maps service, which also lists "Odesa" (conversely, though, OpenStreetMap shows "Odessa"). Furthermore, video game company Ubisoft recently announced a studio in the city that will be called "Ubisoft Odesa".

Obviously, "Odessa" is more common, and I won't request renaming the page, but a simple mention of "Odesa" is more than warranted. Lordtobi (✉) 09:40, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Now Odessa more common beacause Russian Empire and his later variation called Sovet Union used russian language as main. But now Odesa is Ukrainian town and Odesa appearance rise by time Investigatio (talk) 12:45, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Odessa is not Russian. It is an English name. Saying that the English name Odessa is Russian is like saying that the English name Jennifer is Cornish. it may have roots in either Russian or Ukrainian but in English anyway, it has bleep all to do with Russian, just as in English, Jennifer has bleep all to do with Cornish. 199.101.62.225 (talk) 15:02, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

But our city have a name Odesa because foreign names translated from ukrainian. When this lands occupied Russian Empire someone invent name "Одесса" in Russion language. But now its territory of ukraine and all true names is mawes whos written in ukrainan language. For Odesa name with single "s" is used. Investigatio (talk) 12:45, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

Also how many of those results are either discussions about wether to call it Odessa or Odesa, and how many results are about other places that use the Odesa spelling? I went to Sri Lanka a few years ago and stayed in a place called Odesa Town House, (Odesa is pronounced as oh-dee-zuh, with the ode part being like the letters o and D and the sa part like a za). 199.101.62.225 (talk) 15:03, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

"Odesa" is even less likely to ever be the most common English usage (Google searches are really not very reliable, by the way), than "Kyiv". Why? Because of Odessa, Texas; Odessa, California; Odessa... as English placenames. --Taivo (talk) 21:50, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Because in english speaking countries local cities named Odessa as native name. In ukraine Одесса is not original name. It's only at unofficial russian language. Maybe in Texas Odessa have two "s", But Odesa, Ukraine have only one Investigatio (talk) 12:45, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

You clearly don't understand the concept of an exonym in a language. There are not "different spellings" of English exonyms. There is but one. "Odessa" is not a Russian word now nor is it a Ukrainian one. It is an English name for a range of cities around the globe including the city in Ukraine. Ukrainians simply don't have the power to change that at the drop of a hat because they don't like the way that English speakers spell an English name. --Taivo (talk) 15:22, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

I think this discussion needs to be closed, unless somebody is willing to make an official rename request and present evidence. I believe that the acknowledgement in the article is good enough for now. And again, as I said from my previous IP address, Odessa is no more a Russian name than Jennifer is a Cornish name, which is to say not at all. somebody please close this discussion if this is all that she wrote here, as this is going nowhere fast. 38.111.120.74 (talk) 04:48, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Kyiv not "Kiev" / Odesa not "Odessa".--Lanamy (talk) 12:57, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Not per WP:COMMONNAME. As long as this is the English Wikipedia, then common English usage prevails. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 18:50, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Kyiv is well on its way to becoming standard English usage. It will take somewhat longer for Odesa to achieve standard English usage, but it is also on its way. The timespan, as with Kyiv, will likely be dependent upon its positioning in potential military as well as political events in the area. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 08:15, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure which planet you're living on, but the chances of "Odessa" losing that "s" are slim to none in English because English "Odessa" placenames are far more common than "Kiev" ones. English speakers don't like multiple spellings for the same name. But even if that were to happen in the distant future, it ain't now. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 16:09, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

The very fact that the form "Odesa" is being used by top-tier resources such as English-language texts emanating from the United Nations as well as within governmental notices and bulletins from around the English-speaking world, to say nothing of Google Maps etc, already gives "Odesa" the stamp of approval for official use — an extremely prestigious starting point.

As for places around the English-speaking world that are named "Odessa", those names date back to the 19th and early 20th century when Ukraine was considered to be a region of Russia and forms such as "he was born in Kiev, Russia" or "she was born in Odessa, Russia" were commonplace. Today, such place names are as historically relevant as those for Kief, North Dakota, Konigsberg, California or Breslau, Ontario. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 23:55, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

No one in the US cares where "Odessa, Texas" got its name and especially not about official UN usage. As long as it's got two esses, that's the way that the name will be spelled whether talking about Ukraine or Texas. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 23:59, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

By the same token, no one in the US may care where Calcutta, Indiana, Calcutta, Ohio or Calcutta, West Virginia got their names [their Wikipedia entries all carry the hatnote — For the city in India, see Kolkata], but the way that the name is spelled is no longer the same when talking about Indiana and about India. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 00:35, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

English usage for those cities changed despite prevailing American usage because of the number of English speakers in India. In other words, English speakers were changing the usage, just English speakers outside the US. Odessa has no such English-speaking population to force the dropping of the 's' contrary to US usage. Apples and oranges. But all your sophistry is pointless. Common English usage right now is overwhelmingly for "Odessa". End of story. Perhaps it might change one day (long after "Kyiv" is accepted), but that is just gazing into a crystal ball and, like every other gypsy fortune teller, telling the story of a future that matches your own prejudices. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 01:32, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Not apples and oranges, no sophistry and most certainly not pointless. If "[N]o one in the US cares where "Odessa, Texas" got its name", then one would presume that the residents of US or Canadian places named "Odessa" care as little regarding the spelling of Odesa, Ukraine, as the residents of Cracow, Queensland or Cracow, Michigan care about the spelling of Kraków, Poland or the residents of Calcutta, Indiana care about the spelling of Kolkata, India.

There are various places in the New World which were named using now-outdated or renamed forms of places in the Old World, thus making arguments in support of such antiquated linkages invalid.

As for common English usage, in the same manner that predictions regarding the stability of the name "Kiev" proved to be incorrect, predictions regarding the inviolability of the name "Odessa" are also about to crumble. First the US State Department, the United Nations and Google Maps, then The New York Times, The AP Stylebook and all the rest. So it goes. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 08:40, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

You really fail to understand the meaning WP:COMMONNAME and the point of my argument. You are now mixing apples and oranges with bananas and blueberries. Not a single, solitary one of your examples is analogous to "Odessa". Not one. You might as well be talking about physics for all the relevance they have to the point here. But the bottom line is still the same as always, both here and at Kiev, that until you have actual evidence that the majority of English usage has shifted to "Odesa", you're just wasting your time. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 10:50, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

"Odesa not Odessa"

• Hi! In this article, the name of the Ukrainian city of Odesa is incorrect! Correctly Odesa not Odessa. This is the same as Kyiv not Kiev. This is due to the prolonged influence of the Soviet regime in my country (Ukraine). #OdesanotOdessa #KyivnotKiev. Please edit the title in this article. ЄвгенКані (talk) 22:22, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

References

In Wikipedia we base our use of placenames by the simple principle of common English usage. The most common spelling of this city's name in English is Odessa. So that's what the English Wikipedia uses. Wikipedia doesn't care whether the name is Russian or Chinese or Zulu, all that matters is how it is most commonly spelled in English. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 20:42, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Just ignore. It is a political conflict due to the recent anti-russian movements. When Odessa was founded by Russia surely its name was romanized and it was Odessa, not Odesa. Majority of citizens always spoke and still speak Russian and in Russian it sounds Odessa so it is more common and desired name among odessits. Of course there should be redirection and mentions about Odesa too while it is in Ukraine. Dron007 (talk) 02:49, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Nothing anti-Russian in linguistic adjustments. The Russian exonym for the Ukrainian city of Odesa is Odessa and Odesa's Russian-language media depicts the city's name [in Cyrillic] as "Odessa", while Odesa's Ukrainian-language media depicts the city's name [likewise in Cyrillic] as "Odesa". The past English exonym for the Ukrainian city of Odesa was the Russian form, Odessa, but the current English exonym, per U.S. Department of State, is the Ukrainian form, Odesa. As for the last words in your sentence, you most likely meant, "...and mentions about Odesa too since it is in Ukraine", rather than "...while it is in Ukraine". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:53, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Roman Spinner has a very hard time understanding the Wikipedia concept of "common English usage". In common English usage, Odessa is the overwhelming usage. The State Department doesn't matter especially since the State Department's job is to make foreign governments happy. Odessa is the form in English by an even wider margin than Kiev is the choice over Kyiv. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 23:33, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Point of information - Kiev has been renamed Kyiv

Now that the move request succeeded and Kyiv is the name of the main article in Wikipedia, this Odessa article is the only one of the eight listed by the Ukraine Ministry of Foreign Affairs #CorrectUA initiative that is inconsistent [11]. All of the others below:

1. Ukraine
2. Kyiv
3. Lviv
4. Odesa (redirect)
5. Kharkiv
6. Mykolaiv
7. Rivne
8. Ternopil

Just thought this was useful regarding the debate in the above sections. -- Fuzheado | Talk 13:30, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Given that Wikipedia now does not use the Russian transliteration of the name of the capital of Ukraine, it would be logical now to use the Ukrainian transliteration of the city and oblast Odesa. Odesa is the last city that still has Russian transliteration. -- vitaliyf261 | Talk 16:35, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Odessa is different than every other city on this list because it is more firmly entrenched as an English language place name than any of these other cities. There are eight cities in the United States named Odessa. Unlike the problematic claim that "Kiev" was a "Russian name" and not an English one, "Odessa" is an American name, fully and completely. Its origins may have been in Russian, but it is 100% English now. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 15:03, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

No, also Chernobyl, but the Ukrainian state propaganda does not seem to be interested in this one.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:33, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Renaming (September 2020)

I propose to rename this article to Odesa according to the Ukrainian, not Russian transliteration, which was recently done with the Ukrainian capital.— Preceding unsigned comment added by vitaliyf261 (talk • contribs)

Strong oppose, no fucking way this is a common English name.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:30, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

They were saying the same about Kyiv, but eventually pro-Russian lobby gave up. Odesa is next.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.110.102.235 (talk • contribs) 01:27, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

You clearly don't understand that Odessa is a completely different case from Kyiv. There are no American cities named "Kiev". There are no less than eight American cities named "Odessa" along with dozens of other colleges, hills, streams, streets, businesses, etc. While "Kiev" was never deeply rooted in the English language other than the name of Ukraine's capital and a chicken dinner, "Odessa" is an entirely different matter. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 07:44, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

No idea what that has to do with this, but FYI, Kief, North Dakota was named after Kyiv in 1908, and I suppose its name is deeply rooted among North Dakotan Kiefites. Maybe you can point out some references indicating that Odessa is more deeply rooted than Kiev in the English language (what percentage of English-speakers worldwide has ever heard of Odessa, USA, but not Kyiv—is it zero point zero?), and what the article naming guidelines say about it. —Michael Z. 18:39, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Well, I still can imagine a situation when most English sources refer to Odessa, Ukraine as Odesa and Odessa, Delaware as Odessa. However, first, we are nowhere close to this, and, second, the reason that Kiev was renamed from what Ukrainian propagandidts think was the Russian version to what they think is the Ukrainian version is not a reason to rename Odessa. The topic starter has been already, unsurprisingly, blocked for disruption.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:19, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Ymblanter, Please don’t belittle editors as “propagandidts” (is that a typo, or are we propagand-idiots?). Every source about the name says Kiev is the Russian version, e.g., NYT: “The New York Times changed its style of spelling for the capital of Ukraine to Kyiv, reflecting the transliteration from Ukrainian, rather than Russian. The change is reflected in articles published after Nov. 18.” I know where you can find a whole list of such references, in case you are skeptical. —Michael Z. 18:39, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

This was a typo indeed, thanks. No, I am sorry that NYT do not understand elementary things, but Kiev is not a Russian spelling. The Russian spelling is Киев. Russian does not use Latin alphabet, and never did. Kiev is an English spelling. It is indeed historically derived from the Russian name of the city, but nobody cared until the 2000s, when Ukraine started massive propaganda (which was part of the national building). The propaganda understandably intensified in 2014. This explanation was given here on wiki multiple times, but whoever prefers not to hear it but listen to the Ukrainian state propaganda instead, I am afraid I can not help. (For the record, since I will likely be accused again in being a Russian aggressor / Putin defender whatever, as it already happened many times before, I find actually Russian state propaganda much worse. It just works with the English Wikipedia in a completely different way).--Ymblanter (talk) 18:54, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

↑↑↑↑ [Original research][Citation needed] —Michael Z. 20:04, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

As you wish.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:07, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

User:Ymblanter I am very grateful to your for not threatening to block User:Mzajac for merely stating the fact that Kiev is the Russian-[based] version, [and Kyiv is a Ukrainian-based version]: it is a very welcome evolution of your opinions on Ukraine-related topics (and Kyiv/Kiev in particular). I am also hoping that this softening of your stance is a result of a genuine shift in your world-view, and is not because User:Mzajac is a sysop and not a regular editor/IP (because from what I saw in the 15 pages of Talk:Kiev/naming archives, in 2019 and prior years other non-sysop editors were not as lucky as User:Mzajac to get such a generous response from you; i.e., if they said things like "Kiev" is the former (and now outdated) English spelling. The modern English spelling is "Kyiv." diff they would get threatened with a partial block/topic-ban.--73.75.115.5 (talk) 19:33, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

This is great that after being partially blocked from that page you started collecting everything I have ever said on Wikipedia (I have now 168K edits, so you have still a lot of work ahead of you). I would, however, appreciate that you (i) stop citing things out of the context (I am sure you have carefully analyzed what Roman Spinner said on that page prior to my diff, and whether he was previously sanctioned by the community, which was highly relevant to what I said then); (ii) stop making things up; (iii) stop making assumptions about my motives and views, including my political views. May I please remind you that Wikipedia:No personal attacks, which is a Wikipedia policy, starts from "Comment on content, not on the contributor". Wikipedia:Casting aspersions applies here as well. If you think I am breaking Wikipedia policies, you should go to ANI. As you have already figured out, there is even a topic on Kiev/Kyiv disruption there, or you can start a new topic.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:45, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Strange. The Odessa city council still seems to think its English name is "Odessa" (e.g. Odessa tourism site). Must be infiltrated by the Russian lobby propagandists. Walrasiad (talk) 20:13, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Nope. Your authoritative source on English spelling is the “Odessa City Counsil.” —Michael Z. 03:38, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

I believe the law mandates them to use Odesa, so this is strange indeed.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:19, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

I guess when tourist dollars are at stake, recognizability matters more than grandstanding. Walrasiad (talk) 20:27, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

When Odessans themselves have chosen an English name, and we change Kiev to Kyiv because Kyivans want it that way, then we have to respect Odessans who want two esses. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 00:00, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

But, in the end, as I always argued at Talk:Kyiv, it doesn't matter a hill of beans what Ukrainians want their English names to be. It matters what English speakers use. And Odessa is spelled with two esses in English. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 09:52, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Odesa is spelled two different ways in English. Guess which one’s older. —Michael Z. 18:42, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

I am not quite sure, are you going to convince us that there are sources using whatever spelling which mention the city of Odessa and were published before 1794?--Ymblanter (talk) 18:58, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

"Older" has never mattered. "More common in contemporary English" is all that matters. There's simply no comparison at this time. "Odessa" is far more common. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 19:34, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Missing history???

Reading through the entry, I noticed that after the Red Army takeover of Odessa there is ZERO substantive historical information until the German/Romanian invasion in 1941. Similarly, there is a near blank in surround the city's history post WWII. So much history missing. Mind, life wasn't dull as this recent article shows.

https://www.rbc.ua/rus/styler/odesse-obnaruzhili-odin-samyh-krupnyh-mogilnikov-1629640908.html

Comments?

It probably needs to be written, but the link you provide is based on a Facebook post of a propaganda outlet (which is unfortunately common for Ukrainian media who report social media content rather than perform their own investigation) and is not suitable for Wikipedia.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:19, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Media do that in many countries. No need to set an example for broadcasting anti-national prejudices on talk pages. This article and talk page are subject to WP:ACDS. —Michael Z. 22:40, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Duly noting one more personal attack from this user.--Ymblanter (talk) 05:25, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

No, it’s not personal. I draw attention to such comments before they get normalized and snowball, which we have seen happen before. If you can’t see it’s inappropriate, at least other editors can make note that such behaviour doesn’t get a free pass. —Michael Z. 13:28, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Ok, I will use it when I ask to extend your topic ban to the whole Ukrainian topic. AE admins will then decide whether this is personal or not, and whether it was a good idea to keep accusing me in anti-national prejudices after I have many times objected and asked you not to.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:33, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Here’s another article, maybe a bit more detailed, based on the same sources. —Michael Z. 23:05, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Stalin era mass grave

A mass grave has been found in Odessa recently, should that info be part of the page since this is a big and historically-relevant one (5000 to 8000 bodies approximately)? https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8-000-more-victims-of-stalin-purges-unearthed-in-29-graves-in-odessa-southern-ukraine-0g7sm0gqs --166.62.226.25 (talk) 03:10, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Odessa has been attacked -

Russian forces have landed and moving inland. CNN, ABC, BBC reporting. 50.111.36.47 (talk) 05:04, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

First bit

In any case, the first bit should be changed to: Odessa (Ukrainian: Оде́са [oˈdɛsɐ]), (Russian: Оде́сса [ɐˈdʲesə]) (historically the common English name is from the Russian version) or something like this. The Ukrainian name should be first. 142.163.194.97 (talk) 23:15, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 March 2022

Odessa is the Russian spelling. Odesa is the Ukrainian and is most proper. Same with Kyiv. It is Kyiv NOT Kiev 2600:1012:B01F:5873:4918:61E8:D7FA:F5E6 (talk) 21:09, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: There is a page move request already in progress. Kahastok talk 21:16, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

ମୁଁ ଡଚି ଗଲି

What this meaning 42.109.129.220 (talk) 02:19, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Probably that you have some wrong fonts installed.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:25, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Russian marines landing in Odessa

This has been indeed reported in the morning by a number of reliable sources, but all of them quote Anton Gerashchenko, they did not make own research. It has never been followed up and seems yo be disinformation. If no follow-up has been found, and absent new developments, I am going to remove the sentence tomorrow.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:53, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

 Done--Ymblanter (talk) 07:12, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

There were airstrikes reported on the first day of the invasion. Should they be added? Seems notable considering the 2014 violence and attacks are also mentioned in the postwar section. OjdvQ9fNJWl (talk) 06:31, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

If they have been independently confirmed (not just reported citing Ukrainian/Russian sources), yes, sure.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:39, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 March 2022

as has become standard on wikipedia, the history of odessa seems to come directly out of the back of a koran. there was in fact no greek city on the site of odessa, and the article then entirely ignores the indigenous slavic groups that occupied the area for thousands of years. it is very weird to see a history of odessa not mention any sort of slavic habitation of the region until catherine the great, given they have live in the area for thousands of years. but, the reason for this is that the fundamentally racist system of islamic colonialism considers slavs to be inferior peoples that were simply moved off of the land. islamic colonialist narratives are the kinds of racist histories that need to be completely eradicated from scholarship, but the large amount of money held by the region is currently giving it far more influence than it deserves. the entire history section should be rewritten to prioritize the fact that the region has been inhabited by indigenous slavs for thousands of years; the brief period of islamic colonialism in the region should be minimized. 107.190.102.49 (talk) 05:20, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: It isn't clear what exactly you'd like changed which is a requirement for edit requests; simply requesting other editors completely rewrite the section to adhere to a requested point of view is inappropriate. You'll also need reliable sources and very likely a consensus of some kind. —Sirdog (talk) 08:36, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

"Slavs" as a nationality have not been around for "thousands of years," so that's one nail in the coffin of your argument. And the Greek colony at that site is a well-established fact. 50.111.36.47 (talk) 16:32, 7 March 2022 (UTC)