Talk:Nusantara (city)

History section is overwrought

Do we really need a fully in-depth explainer of the nuances of the Indonesian bureaucracy's decision-making process regarding this city that has not yet been built and could ultimately fail to come to fruition? Admirable effort to detail, and it is quite interesting, but does not necessarily provide an easy to understand summary of what's going on here.

Jondvdsn1 (talk) 09:50, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Let it ride for a few months. On the ground knowledge I heard in Balikpapan in March says Ministry of Finance is due to relocate in August. As noted in this article, there is a lot of pressure on Jokowi to manifest something before his term limit expires early 2024. In addition, this is a major change for any country, and there should be some historical background -- see my recent edit debunking the assumption that Jokowi originated the idea. Doesn't seem too long to me, but certainly can be trimmed if and when the relocation actually starts to happen. Martindo (talk) 05:31, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Note

For the "Nusantara" Javanese script, please don't put it outside the Etymology section, Indonesia doesn't use Javanese script as its official script. Mhatopzz (talk) 14:33, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Unsourced informations among many other

@Thalialioo Please stop adding "official names", "mottos", logos, flags, or any other uncited stuff.

The "city" (which as we speak now) does not exist yet, it has no legal basis since the presidential decree on new capital nor the bill has been passed. So it cant have official name or official motto yet, let alone logo or flags. And do not add Javanese script too since it is not official script of the region right now nor the planned future capital. Nyanardsan (talk) 14:34, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Request

In order to avoid disambiguation, I suggest the article's name should be changed into "Nusantara, Indonesia" Instead of "Nusantara city or Nusantara (city)" Mhatopzz (talk) 23:34, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

@Mhatopzz Apologize, but I think Nusantara (city) is the best name for the article right now since in Indonesia itself, Nusantara has distinct meanings too so its important to point that it is a city. Nyanardsan (talk) 23:48, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Well, I don't think putting parentheses in an article's title about Capital city would be appropriate, I saw some articles about capital city put coma between the capital's name and the country's name. For such example, take a look at San José, Costa Rica. Mhatopzz (talk) 23:55, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

I think even city is a misnomer at the moment, since there's actually no physical city located on the site. Nusantara (proposed city) would be better at the moment. As the city approaches completion, it can be Nusantara (city), and once it becomes the capital, Nusantara, Indonesia. Seloloving (talk) 04:59, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Additional reference

There may be some facts in this ABC News article that aren't yet in ours: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-30/what-will-happen-to-jakarta-when-indonesia-builds-a-new-capital/100784566 ⁓ Pelagic ( messages ) 03:10, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 27 May 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 19:44, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

---

• Nusantara (planned city) → Nusantara
• Nusantara → Nusantara (disambiguation)

– The article on the city has far more views, and the soon-to-be capital city of Indonesia is clearly a more relevant term in English than a geographic concept that's only generally used in Southeast Asia. Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 09:25, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom. 〜 Festucalex • talk 12:51, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nom, agree that the new capital is the primary topic. ITBF (talk) 14:22, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

  It's not the new capital yet - and may never be. Davidelit (Talk) 15:02, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose As noted in Article and Talk, as well as related pages (e.g., Jokowi, the city is still under construction. The earliest any government office will be relocated there is August (Ministry of Finance is what I heard from several locals when in Balikpapan in March). I don't see any need to push the river here. Leave it as "planned city" and then make changes as necessary later in the year when the city is occupied (or not). However, changing the existing informal disambiguation page to a formal disambiguation page/link is a good idea. Martindo (talk) 07:40, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support. Although I think it's a bit too soon, the new capital is the primary topic since the English-speaking world isn't familiar with the archipelagic term. Bluesatellite (talk) 12:02, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

  Calling it primary assumes it's the target of a search. In fact, searching "nusantara" reveals an airline, a TV station, a satellite, and a "national vision" (mentioned in the etymology section here) -- among others listed in disambiguation. And there is another problem with presuming that the parenthetical part is extraneous: nobody uses this name in Balikpapan. They all refer to it as IKN. So, if a foreigner has some acquaintance with current usage by Indonesians, he or she might not even hear the term "nusantara" and perhaps would search English WP for "planned city Indonesia" -- guess what the first hit is. Martindo (talk) 21:41, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Not sure where you're finding those search results but when I google "Nusantara" the results are all news articles about the city- and they refer to the city as simply "Nusantara" rather than anything more complex. Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 12:03, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Let's look at it this way, as an imaginary conversation:

"I heard that Indonesia is planning to move its capital city."

"Where?"

"I don't know, another island, I think."

"What's the name of the new capital?"

"I forgot."

"Let's look it up in wikipedia. Try INDONESIA PLANNED CAPITAL."

"Hey, there's the article!"

This kind of Request really needs to consider how the encyclopedia is used, not merely abstract esthetics of "clean up".

The keyword string Indonesia Planned Capital actually yields this article on its SECOND hit. However, I think it is a more likely search term than the one I proposed hypothetically in my rebuttal comment above. So how do I suggest an ALTERNATIVE in the Request process? I think we should change the parenthetical part of the article's title to (Planned Capital) because that is what is newsworthy, even though the issue of starting a *city* from scratch is an important part of the story. Martindo (talk) 01:26, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose The city does not even exist yet, and it is by no means certain that it ever will. I think it should be kept as Nusantara (planned city) for now, then in the future it can be changed to Nusantara (city), Nusantara (former planned city) or Nusantara (abandoned city project) as appropriate. However I agree with making Nusantara a formal disambig page. Davidelit (Talk) 06:02, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose In fact, I'd argue the archipelago is primary by longterm significance and should be undisambiguated. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 17:03, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
  • I don't see how Nusantara (archipelago) is primary over Wawasan Nusantara, much less a capital city. Walt Yoder (talk) 22:01, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose not yet. If it becomes the seat-of-government of Indonesia next year, then it will presumably be the primary topic then. There isn't sufficient coverage yet. Walt Yoder (talk) 22:01, 29 May 2023 (UTC)
• Support I thought I was going to oppose here, but the pageviews are crushing. Over the past 6 months, Nusantara has somewhere in the range of a little below 75% of the pageviews across (most) articles with Nusantara in their title (pageviews only allows 10 entries), and it's been solidly ahead in pageviews of everything else since early 2022, with the archipelago being the only article anywhere near it. That, plus the vast majority of google results on the front page on a browser I don't use being for the planned capital, and I think it's fairly obvious this is currently the primary topic. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 11:36, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Too soon, a year too soon. A quick search shows that the city is still under initial development, and there is some uncertainty as to whether the next president will carry through the development of the planned city. I would consider a move request again either after the presidential elections in 2024 or there's some definitive and swift steps by the current administration to transplant some of the civil institutions over to cement the status of the new city, whichever comes first. – robertsky (talk) 15:29, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Any updates?

This planned city is supposed to be inaugurated in less than 4 weeks, but has dropped out of the news. The official website still has a "©2021 Copyright" notice. Is it still going ahead, or has it been quietly abandoned? Davidelit (Talk) 08:38, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Inauguration is planned on 17 August 2024. Aotearoa (talk) 07:54, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't know what kind of news that you frequented, but starting in 16 August the parliament will discuss the amendment(s) on the Law on State Capital. I also noticed that the Indonesian version of the official website already has "©2023 Copyright", while the English version do indeed still display the 2021 copyright. Jauhsekali (talk) 14:43, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

References

Requested move 16 July 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Although we have enough opposition to declare this as "not moved", the reasons for opposition are varied, with a few (including a "wait" that I am reading as "oppose for now" as the discussion can't be left open), and other oppose replies indicating that the city is not the primary topic, indicating that there is a consensus against moving, but not entirely for the same reasons.

While another RM can technically be opened later, it should focus on evidence in reliable sources, which we did not see a lot of here, and will greatly assist in any future move. I also recommend reading our guidance on common names as well as primary topic, which are important to this discussion especially. (closed by non-admin page mover) ASUKITE 19:54, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

---

• Nusantara (city) → Nusantara
• Nusantara → Nusantara (disambiguation)

– When this move was nominated a year ago, the primary reason against such move was that it was too soon with the city then only in its planning stages along with doubts whether or not the city would even be completed. Now, in about a month the city would become the new capital of Indonesia, which I argue would make it the primary topic. The city also gets significantly more views than other topics with such name. Zinderboff(talk) 16:10, 16 July 2024 (UTC) — Relisting.  ASUKITE 17:56, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Support The planned city is certainly the primary topic, and it is effectively certain that the city will at least have some sort of administrative significance around the time it opens. CROIX^talk 21:04, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

No. Not yet. Please do not move it. Wait until the presidential decree on capital relocation is issued first. Mmnashrullah (talk) 08:18, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Wait until president issuing decree Great achievement (talk) 15:39, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Southeast Asia, WikiProject Cities, and WikiProject Indonesia have been notified of this discussion. RodRabelo7 (talk) 16:12, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. Yes, it would be the primary topic in the future. But as of now, It's still too soon. Ckfasdf (talk) 16:34, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Weak support. It doesn't hinge on a presidential decree. It's about what people are primarily looking for when they type the name of a topic, and also long-term considerations (cf. the Java debate). Page views of the articles listed in the disambiguation page indeed indicate that the concrete place at this time already gets more attention than the somewhat abstract concept of Nusantara that is only known to people who have a deeper interest in the region. NB, I'm talking about the English-speaking world; for Indonesians, Nusantara is of course highly relevant and omnipresent, as a word and as a concept (I'd probably strongly !vote "oppose" if this were Indonesian Wikipedia). –Austronesier (talk) 17:17, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Comment. If the city/construction site is the primary topic it should be "more likely than all the other topics combined". A basic google search for the term does find that results of relevance to the city outnumbered all other uses combined. Google news obviously is all about the city. Google scholar and book searches however do not show this at all, although they seem to hit links in Indonesian quite fast suggesting the term is not widespread in English. The wikinav for Nusantara provides an indication of more interest for the city than the term, although it is a surprisingly slight lead. I do feel instinctively that the city is going to be the meaning understood by most English speakers (if they know it at all), so I would weakly support this, but I can't find data to support my intuition convincingly. CMD (talk) 01:45, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Support per WP:PT1. The number will be even bigger in the coming years, considering its status as the capital of fourth most populous country in the world. Bluesatellite (talk) 09:53, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relisted to seek additional participation. Note that two replies after CROIX are opposing without bolded text and may easily be missed. Also note that per WP:PTOPIC, significance in terms of usage should be demonstrated via evidence, not assumptions. ASUKITE 17:56, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. Nusantara should be a redirect to Indonesia since Nusantara is the name of the Indonesian archipelago. The city's article is perfectly appropriate with the disambiguator. Neocorelight (Talk) 10:56, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Wait. If TOOSOON is legitimately raised, wait instead of immediate opposition. InvadingInvader (userpage, talk) 16:46, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Strong Oppose. Nusantara is Nusantara. This is like making Java (programming language) the primary topic over Java (island) just because media talks more about the former, simply ridiculous. Nyanardsan (talk) 01:20, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Strong Oppose. Nusantara has many definitions, just because Indonesia decided to use the name for their new capital city does not justify it being the only sole definition for the word. The Muslim Apologist (talk) 18:17, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. Nusantara can fit on many terms. Even from the perspective of Indonesians, while it's the name of the future capital city, that doesn't mean a collective of many islands wouldn't be called as such anymore. Not to mention that other countries like Brunei, Malaysia and Singapore also refers on the Malay realm/Malay archipelago as such, so yep. Starry Windy★ 06:39, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Incorrect etymology

The term "antara" in "Nusantara" have several meanings:

(1) "In between" (the word in this meaning is still used in modern indonesian)

(2) "Around" (the same meaning as the root of "belantara" - "bela" = "side", "antara" = "around". Belantara = around this side)

The context for "Nusantara" etymology is "The Islands Around (this area)" since it refers to the surrounding islands of Java as the Majapahit Kingdom's point of view. Even though the point of the text is still the same, but the meaning is completely different from "outer". People in Majapahit's era normally using "jhaba" as "outer". Fauzul Uzul (talk) 08:23, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Is it the capital already?

Can we say that it is the Indonesian capital now or should we wait until it's completely finished? Or when? Rantemario (talk) 12:59, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Legally it isn't the capital yet until the President has issued the Keputusan Presiden/Keppres (Presidential Decree) regarding the transfer of the state capital. So no, currently it is not the capital yet. Jauhsekali (talk) 16:18, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh, so it's not capital the capital right now. Somebody already changed the capital on the Indonesia article though, lol. Rantemario (talk) 16:45, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@Rantemario Hello, can you help me to move this page to Nusantara (planned city)? Nusantara is still in the development stage so it is not yet appropriate to call it a city. Additional information, Nusantara will be made into a separate province, not a city. Thanks. 2001:448A:3042:876C:5894:96D1:2EC3:164C (talk) 16:43, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm afraid I can't since sure it's something that requires everyone's consensus. Rantemario (talk) 16:46, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@Rantemario Please check the Indonesian version. 2001:448A:3042:876C:5894:96D1:2EC3:164C (talk) 16:49, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

That's not how Wikipedia works. You seen the discussion above? Rantemario (talk) 16:51, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@Rantemario I have read it. 2001:448A:3042:876C:5894:96D1:2EC3:164C (talk) 17:04, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

2nd sentence is opaque

The lede opens with (emphasis added):

Nusantara (Indonesian pronunciation: [nusanˈtara] ^ⓘ), officially known as Ibu Kota Nusantara (IKN), is the future capital of Indonesia, located between Kutai Kartanegara Regency and North Penajam Paser Regency, East Kalimantan. Ibu Kota Nusantara is planned to be a special authority region at the provincial level, replacing Jakarta which has been the capital since 1961.

"Ibu Kota Nusantara is planned to be a special authority region at the provincial level" -- what does this mean? Looking it up, I think that that this means that the city is going in be or be in a special capital territory like Canberra and Washington D.C. etc etc. Can we just say that? How does becoming a "special authority region" replace anything? There are other special authority regions in Indonesia, such as Yogyakara. Making a new one doesn't invalidate those, I wouldn't think. I suppose is meant "it is planned to be (or be in) a capital territory, and the current capital region of Jakarta will be dissolved". I had to look all this up and I'm still not sure what what is meant or if that is even true. I don't know why we can't just say "Nusantara will replace Jakarta as the capital" which is the main point I think, and talk about the administrative aspects a little bit later. Maybe we can. Not being 100% sure what is going on here, I can't fix it, but hopefully someone who knows more about the matter can, thanks. Herostratus (talk) 15:36, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

I have clarified the lede. According to one of the sources, there will be a capital region that will be a province, similar to the current arrangement with Jakarta. The articles relating to the new capital are all in a bit of mess because the new capital was supposed to be inaugurated yesterday, but due to unanticipated rain during the rainy season and problems securing funding, it's been delayed, but IP editors have been making uncited changes as if it were the capital already. Regards Davidelit (Talk) 15:46, 18 August 2024 (UTC)