Talk:Nuer massacre

Nuer Genocide

This is a talk page for discussing the improvement of The Nuer Genocide or The Genocide Against The Nuer article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. Gatwech Gai (talk) 08:09, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Using the "Genocide" description

@Gatwech Gai Genocide is a very legal description that need to come from known institutes like Genocide Watch and the International Criminal Court, and that is currently not presented in the article FuzzyMagma (talk) 03:16, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@FuzzyMagma thank you for your contribution to Nuer Genocide yes Genocide is a legal description but it also mean intentional destruction of people in whole or part. Nuer Genocide was condemned by international communities, IGAD, United Nations Mission in South Sudan which caused huge tensions and rough relationship between United Nation and the genocidal government of South Sudan led by President Kiir. What happened to Nuer was clearly a genocide. Please do not move the article to massacre. Massacre is what the perpetrators labeled it. The world know it was a genocide. [[Gatwech Gai (talk) 04:26, 28 May 2024 (UTC)]]

@Gatwech Gai did they use the term genocide or it’s you doing your own research? FuzzyMagma (talk) 16:53, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Events can only be termed a genocide in wikivoice, per the WP:NPOV policy, if there is a consensus in sources that they are genocide. So far, the majority of sources are calling it "massacre", "killings", "Killins", "massacre", "summary execution", "ethnically driven killings", "atrocities" etc. The current title is not the WP:COMMONNAME and does not satisfy the criteria in WP:POVTITLE. The only source describing this event as a genocide is Nyamilepedia and they are unreliable, see Mass media in South Sudan#Unreliable.

Please do not move the article again as you now have two experienced editors contesting your opinion FuzzyMagma (talk) 17:31, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@FuzzyMagma I really don't think you have enough information about South Sudan because if you do, you would never trust what the Mass Media in South Sudan put out. There is no freedom for journalism/journalists in South Sudan. The same president who committed Nuer Genocide control the media. All the news outlet only put out censored information. There is SPLA Captain whose job is to solely verify all the news before they are being air. Countless journalist were killed just for reporting the genocide. two Kenyan journalists were tortured and striped off of all the evidence of the genocide before they were deported to Nairobi. https://sudantribune.com/article226677/ reported the genocide by the way, and Nyamilepedia that you said is unreliable are actually the most reliable because the state government do not control them.

Human Right Watch termed the 2013 incident as ethnic cleansing and a looming genocide two days after the pogrom. It only became a civil war after the Nuer formed their army to retaliate. Hilde Johnson who was the head of United Nation mission in South Sudan at the time wrote a book about it and termed it as a Genocide.

If you or other editors in here cannot move it back to Nuer Genocide, then I suggest you nominate this article for quick deletion since you guys have all the power to silence the Nuer people's truth. this article is not my own research, its a collaboration work from Nuer people, there is no point having this article in Wikipedia as Nuer Massacre. don't forget to notify me, the creator about the article deletion. Gatwech Gai (talk) 02:09, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

ethnic cleansing and genocide are two different terms. Read this if you are interested in knowing the difference. I myself didn’t know the difference 3 months ago and thought they were interchangeable

I really think you should start listening and read the policies that I have tagged before meanwhile this is not the place for journalism and you don’t own the article to ask us to delete it.

I recommend you read at least the core Wikipedia’s policies and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not especially the part where it says that “Wikipedia is not a forum for free speech” and that Wikipedia is not the place for righting great wrongs.

PS: I am familiar with South Sudan but that is neither here nor there.. FuzzyMagma (talk) 06:16, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

FuzzyMagma, the editor asked me if I worked for "the genocidal government of South Sudan". I hadn't been asked that one before. Drmies (talk) 20:01, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

lol, sometimes I wish we had more than the a "thank you" button FuzzyMagma (talk) 20:45, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Gatwech Gai, I didn't break a single policy by warning you, but I'm not surprised you claim that. I obviously didn't block you from editing--and please keep the "smh" type of comment for Facebook. When you edit articles and talk pages, please copy edit before you click "Publish changes".— Preceding unsigned comment added by Drmies (talk • contribs) 14:49, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Neutrality

You can't use language like "to conceal his evil plan", "The atrocities committed against the Nuer are an abomination", "were beyond comprehension", etc. I understand it may be difficult to write in a neutral point of view of such events, but that is what is required. Please review the article and update when appropriate — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:46, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi, thanks.

the words in question are now replaced, removed or re-write. The neutrality template is now being removed as well. Gatwech Gai (talk) 04:16, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

These are examples and not an exhaustive list. I will do spot checks later also to check references FuzzyMagma (talk) 07:45, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Duplicate information

Similar infromation are written in the sections named "The massacre" and "The Massacre". This need to be removed/resolved. FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:33, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Copy editing for the similar information of the duplicated "The Massacre" section is now complete. Gatwech Gai (talk) 05:20, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks @Gatwech Gai. During this weekend, I will try to go through the article, do some copy editing to remove the tag at the lead, and merge the Juba Nuer Massacre to this article.

Moving forward, if you are interested, I am planning to write about couple of atrocities that happened in southern Sudan (before independence) that were committed mostly by the (northern) government of Sudan through Arab militia or directly like:

• 1965 Juba and Wau massacres
• 1987 Dhein Massacre
• 1988 Bahr el Ghazal famine
• 1998 Bahr el Ghazal famine (both events can be described as crimes against humanity but this a term that requires legal support, similar to genocide)
• Muraheleen a (northern) pro-government militia similar to the Janjaweed but targeted southerners, se hrw and Uni Mannheim. The militi was successed by the Popular Defence Forces (another group that committed many massacres in the south)

there are good reliable books and reports around these events which we can use to avoid using self-published books which are generally not accepted (moreon this at Wikipedia:Identifying and using self-published works#Using self-published sources. let me know what you think.

PS: as you can see the redlinks are to a Draft not a page just to allow for the article to be developed properly before being moved to the mainspace where it can be deleted from multiple reasons. FuzzyMagma (talk) 08:20, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you @FuzzyMagma.

I think that is good idea to write articles about these tragic events that are now seem to be forgotten and bring them back to live. I will be ready to help in developing those articles. Its good that you found reliable books and reports that can be sourced because the lack of mainstream media availability in Southern Sudan during the liberation struggles contributed to dozen atrocities committed against the Southerners by the Northern Sudan government to be forgotten. Gatwech Gai (talk) 00:00, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi, I’m pretty busy these does, would you mind have a go at merging Juba Nuer Massacre to this article? I see you have started the NPP adventure and this might be a good way to practice your knowledge.

just make sure you include all of the information before you blank the page. FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:05, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Ok thanks. I'm doing the merging (Juba Nuer Massacre to this page) right now. Gatwech Gai (talk) 23:15, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I add some information from the previous page. I really think that this article is not far from Good article status. We can do more work and co-nominate it to be reviewed. It will be an excellent exercise for your to hone your editing skills and further improve the quality of the article. FuzzyMagma (talk) 08:23, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Machar dismissal

Riek Machar was actually dismissed in 23 July 2013 not 2012 FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:41, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Machar announcing running for presidency

in the first paragraph you said that Machar announced he will for presidency in 2013 and now you changed to 2015. If this is try, then this happened after the massacre! FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:42, 13 June 2024 (UTC)