Talk:National Socialist Underground

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move to National Socialist Underground uncontested Mike Cline (talk) 01:31, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

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Nationalsozialistischer Untergrund → National Socialist Underground — WP:English Narziß Goldmund (talk) 14:26, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

Discussion

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

File:Fahndungsplakat NSU.JPG Nominated for Deletion

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Bot is wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.6.64.136 (talk) 22:52, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Translation from German

I am working on a translation of the German version of this article in my sandbox: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Eoinjones/sandbox

I would welcome any comments, particularly suggestions about how the articles should be merged when the translation is complete. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eoinjones (talk • contribs) 10:48, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi Eoinjones, please look at your talk page, just wrote a reply for you. -- 46.115.26.127 (talk) 10:03, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Bank robberies

What's still entirely missing in the article so far, is the long series of bank robberies attributed to this terrorist gang. (14 in all, to my recollection.) -- 46.115.20.149 (talk) 19:46, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Just added that (plus reference) to the opening paragraph. Perhaps the list of this series should be detailed later on. (Reason, imho: Each crime they committed should have increased the chances of being caught...) -- 46.115.26.127 (talk) 12:00, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

serial bank robbery & quite clumsy robbers

It's astonishing ! How it can be possible - at the beginning of 21st century, given quite a number of modern surveillance technique, DNA tracking etc. - the perpetrators achieved such a series without being catched. And they acted at times quite clumsy, in a certain contrast to the professional killings (at the scenes of which, allegedly, not even a single DNA track could be found ... strange...) Are there comparable series of unsolved bank robber cases - in Germany ? --213.172.123.242 (talk) 06:54, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Work in progress, Invitation for comments

Readers should please note: Much editing (and adding references) has been done in recent days. In the process it has become clear that some parts of the article should be considered as side topics of the main story. Namely e.g. the sensationalist report from the Stern magazine. Adding references and expanding showed, it's most likely based on a forgery of an impostor who wanted to cash in. (But that's not the final word yet.)
Similar applies (but under a different aspect) to the question of banning the NPD party. That should be kept in the article, but as a separate section. - As almost all right-wing extremists seem to have (or have had before) some connections to this party during the formation period of their ideological outlook and concepts, it is widely regarded as sort of a hotbed. The common expression for this in Germany is ideological "Durchlauferhitzer" (tankless heater), figuratively speaking. - At first glance, this information may seem POVish, but it isn't. Just put it quick and short.
Just wanted to inform the readers that all this is not so much a matter of undue weight, but article is somewhat still "under construction". The additions had been made to keep readers informed, and help them to put things into perspective that were already in there. - In the meantime a translation of the german version is being prepared as well (please see above here). Looking forward for comments, especially where better explanations are needed for readers outside Germany. Proofreading and corrections of language errors also very much welcome. -- 46.115.2.46 (talk) 15:36, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Update - current events

The modus operandi of the NSU was to do their murders and bank-robberies in a hit-and-run style. Usually they hired a camper van. Then they approached their targets on mountain bikes. Afterwards they weathered out the hot pursuit (encirclement) by the police forces in that camper van. - Two kinds of weapons had been used. Mainly that silenced Ceska (which now could be traced back to a vendor in Switzerland, according to reliable reports on swiss and german public TV) and a converted italian Starting pistol (i.e. that kind of gadget used for launching in sports events; they did some kind of tinkering to upgrade it for firing live ammo). - Two more heads of the Offices for the Protection of the Constitution at state level had to resign in the mean time since my last edit. - The trial against the last surviving member of the terror-trio, Beate Zschäpe, had been postponed over a scandal about the admittance of press-correspondents and is now due to start next month. My main aim here had always been mainly to provide good reliable english references. - Sorry, I had some very unpleasant experiences on WP (bullying and obstructive filibustering). Therefore I'm not active anymore. (My user-name then had been User:CaffeineCyclist, besides many edits as IP 46.xxx.) - Greetings from Germany, and I hope this answers your questions. --176.6.140.52 (talk) 00:25, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi former user:CaffeineCyclist! Thanks for your remarks and for your excellent contributions, specifically to this article. I wish there was some way to contact you. I'm sorry to hear about your negative experiences that led you to retire. You are for sure not alone in this regard. I think the WP experiment has been a limited success for a whole lot of users. IMHO there needs to be better oversight (or I should say actual oversight) of editors and administrators who push an agenda contrary to WP's stated objective, especially to WP:NPOV. Hopefully, the system will eventually get fixed; if not, it will slide (further) into irrelevance, especially in certain subject categories. Kind regards, Paavo273 (talk) 23:04, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Just take note that these are allegations from the police side now. That's why the article correctly says "attributed to". Also, another witness died recently in an "accident" including fire. Maybe that should be worked in as soon as articles for reference are available. --41.151.92.41 (talk) 09:45, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Zschäpe: principal, accessory, moll?

Significantly, the prosecution is attempting to show Zschäpe was a principal (Mittäterschaft) not a mere accessory (Beihilfe).

http://www.tagesschau.de/inland/zschaepe-anklage102.html

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/h_to_k/joint_enterprise

Rjtucker (talk) 12:03, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Oddities

There are may oddities in this case relating to the evidence, prior investigations and involvement of intelligence services. --41.151.92.41 (talk) 09:41, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I've listed a few on the NSU Trial page I created.

If the trial were in a British style court would the prosecution not have had to make its case clear by now? It's been going since May and most of it regarding Zschäpe has been of witnesses who just might have seen her near a crime scene. If they haven't got a case against a principal, how can they have a case against accessories and abettors? Could their bringing a case against Zshäpe as principal be at least in part to avoid having any closer examination of the evidence surrounding Mundlos and Böhnhardt?

Rjtucker (talk) 10:35, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

You see, when you read the German papers, it seems this is a case the size of the Fergusson-JFK trial in the late 60s. Most of the sessions for two years consisted of hearing an endless stream of evidence after evidence, exhibit after exhibit, testimony after testimony from the prosecution, plus many pleas by the lawyers of the victims and their families to allow more exhibits and evidence which are usually denied by the court. The entire body of material heard at the case, even just what little *COULD* be heard because of the aforementioned, took several years to be heard.

Which is just a fraction of what evidence still exists, but both the court and the Public Prosecutor General at various stages of the trial and its preparation directly and officially ordered the prosecution to stop the investigations and ignore heaps of evidence and not have them registered and presented in the trial. The Public Prosecutor General publically went on record that he "doesn't want to know all that's to this case, and neither do you." to justify his official orders to the prosecution, indicating that it's all a matter of national security because Germany's secret services were behind it and in it to their necks.

And even all the evidence in its entirey that's still there, whether heard or unheard in the trial, is in turn just a fraction of the evidence which existed until the NSU became known to the public when Zschäpe blew up their last hideout building and turned herself in to the police. For exactly within the following weeks after Zschäpe turned herself in and it all went public, all local offices of the Verfassungsschutz patently began destroying several kilometers of paper files related to the NSU before the prosecution, members of the parliament, or the press could get hold of them (and in many cases these files were destroyed *AFTER* the prosecution or parliamentary commissions demanded to see them but before these demands for disclosure could be carried out), and all we have left today are receipts relating to the destruction of the files and that they were related to the NSU. This has become humorously known as Aktion Reißwolf ("Operation Shredder"), and add to that the fact that ever since Zschäpe turned herself in, police informants on the NSU and witnesses die like flies under obscure circumstances as soon as any media outlet reports they intend to speak to the press, make testimonials to the police, or appear at the trial. Many people, media outlets, and journalists say it stinks like a giant cover-up on a decade of homegrown extreme right-wing state-sponsored terrorism that was intended for politicians, the police, and the media to conveniently blame on "criminal immigrants" and "far-left pinkos" within a premeditated Strategy of tension framework. --2003:71:4E07:3E20:45EF:1899:3963:E09C (talk) 04:21, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

PS: As another reply to Rjtucker, journalist Robert Andreasch has now disclosed that already back in May 2013, even just the period of the taking of evidence within the trial was scheduled in advance to last at least up until summer 2015. Source would be this German lecture by Andraesch: [1], held in October, 2014, at the University of Tübingen. --79.242.222.168 (talk) 15:58, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Oh, and as another afterthought to show you about the size of the trial, you may be interested to know that it's only after a recent a-bomb of a find in the on-going case that the entire case gets attention on the German Wikipedia appropriate to its complexity. What happened is that back in mid-October this year, DNA evidencehas now linked the NSU case (which has already been rumored wide and far to have had most of Germany's secret service inolved to their necks) to the case of Peggy K., one of the most spectacular unsolved cases of child abduction within the last 20 years and, obviously, a wide network of child-porn and child-prostitution rings which the NSU's extreme right-wing terrorists used to finance themselves while hiding underground and doing their terror attacks. Which looks just lovely on our secret services now how they didn't only let extreme right-wing terrorism happen under their seeing eyes and protecting it from legal investigation and persecution whenever they could, but obviously even clandestine, widespread child prostitution.

It's been known for some time that in 2011, childporn was found on Zschäpe's computer in their blown-up last hideout's debris and those CP charges against her were dropped in favor of the terror charges leveled against her, but now word got out she's been caught with the stuff at least once before in the 1990s and back then, they only dropped the charges because the NSU went underground and she couldn't be found. What's only getting relevant and really out in the open with the recent DNA link now is how many of the NSU's supporters (such as Tino Brandt and others) that were secret service informants or undercover agents were active in child prostitution in order to finance the extreme right-wing scene. After the recent DNA find, police is now investigating hundreds of unsolved cases of missing or murdered children all over the country as far back as 1990 as to whether any link to the NSU case can be established. Besides Peggy, the media is already reporting on at least three other unsolved child-abduction or child murders cases that are being investigated as likely linked to the NSU and where, partly, links have been investigated unknown to the public even years before the recent DNA find.

Add to that that the same chief investigator, Wolfgang Geier, botched both the abduction case of Peggy K. back in the early 2000s *AND* the NSU murder cases in the mid-2000s. In both cases, he only rabidly went after the Turkish-German victims and their families due to his own xenophobic ideology, blaming the victims themselves for the murders by calling them some kind of "Turkish mafia", and/or pressured mentally handicapped Turko-Germans into confessing to crimes they hadn't done, securing them live sentences thereby, without ever finding Peggy *OR* solving the NSU murders that way.

In any case, long story short, now with the recent DNA find in October and the link to the case of Peggy as well as wide-spread right-wing child-prostitution rings, the case is finally getting the attention on German Wikipedia its complexity would've deserved ever since 2011 already, and just to show you the sheer size of the thing, there are now not only German WP articles on the NSU organization itself (just look at the size of that general overview article by now), the xenophobic murders of immigrants, the Munich terrorism trial, and the many, many parliamentary enquiry commissions into all the shit our secret services were in on regarding the entire NSU conspiracy, no, now they're even discussing own separate articles for Comprehensive Multi-Timeline of the NSU Conspiracy, Covering-up and Obstruction of Justice in the NSU Conspiracy as It Was On-Going, Post-Discovery Covering-up and Mistakes in the NSU Investigations, and they've even started up a first draft of an entire WikiProject NSU Conspiracy.

In any case, I hope all the above gives you just a tiny fraction of an idea as to why the entire thing certainly wouldn't have blown over within half a year even within an Anglo-Saxon adversary judicial system. --2003:71:4E6A:B494:45BF:41EF:D43F:AEC1 (talk) 12:00, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

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Size of NSU in infobox

The infobox states that the NSU had or has 100-150 members. I just want to point out that the federal prosecutor regards the terrorist organization as consisting of the three members Zschäpe, Mundlos, Böhnhardt. Thus, the NSU dissolved in 2011, when Böhnhardt and Mundlos died. However, this version is highly contested and it is clear that up to 200 people supported the three main perpetrators in one way or other. Whether or not this support network can be regarded as actual members of the NSU is a matter of dispute. As much as I support the idea that the NSU cannot be regarded as simply a terrorist cell of three people, I'm wondering if the infobox should reflect the official version. Bohnenkraut11 (talk) 15:53, 9 October 2020 (UTC)