Talk:National Youth Music Theatre

Cleanup

Capitalization, double mentioning, perhaps dates of performances would help as well. That whole recently added section needs a tweak. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 19:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I seen it was already underway, if the performances mentioned twice happened on different days/years it should be mentioned. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 19:47, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Reply: Please could you clarify? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jezza264Jezza264 (talk) 01:26, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

This is just a listy stub. There is very little useful content here. Can't some news articles about the group be found? How does the group operate? Who runs it? Who has directed these pieces? How are they selected? How do the children audition, etc. -- Ssilvers (talk) 13:56, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Reply: The article is intended to be a history of the NYMT. I believe that there is substantial content. It is not intended to be a promotioal page for auditions or productions. The directors are listed for most listed productions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jezza264Jezza264 (talk) 01:26, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Is it a fact that they are the leading organisation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.154.171.217 (talk • contribs) 13:36, 4 September 2008 ‎

Reply: I dont believe the article states that NYMT is the leading organisation.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jezza264Jezza264 (talk) 01:26, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Cleanup, redux

The promotional tone, unsourced passages, and likely copyright violations are a long term concern. Much of this appears to stem from a WP:SPA, Jezza264 [1], though anonymous IPs have lent a hand as well. No attempt by Jezza to explain edits, nor clarify possible relationship to the subject. Cleanup overdue. 99.11.4.60 (talk) 00:18, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

The majority of the text has been written by me, Jezza264. I am the producer of the National Youth Music Theatre and am therefore the author of text both here and on the NYMT website (http://www.nymt.org.uk). NYMT owns the copyright to all images used. The purpose of my edits has been to update factual information - matters of history and of future activity. The history is drawn from NYMT archives. There are no copyright violations. 01:41, 5 July 2012 [[2]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jezza264Jezza264 (talk) 00:48, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Inadequately sourced content, lack of neutrality, copyright problems and ownership are common problems in such situations, as they are here. I've added a COI template to the article, and will seek further help from objective editors. 99.11.4.60 (talk) 01:22, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Please coud you identify for me the specific content that you consider to be inadequately sourced? I have re-edited the page to ensure that it is purely factual with no subjective language. The page is intended to provide an accurate history of the organisation and nothing more. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jezza264Jezza264 (talk) 01:33, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Much of it. I've stated the difficulties here and at your talk page. The thing to do is walk away from an article in which conflict of interest is so clearly an issue. The content is partly copied from the organization's website, and is in large measure not neutral in tone--this is evident to an objective reader, though perhaps not to someone affiliated with the organization. 99.11.4.60 (talk) 01:37, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Clarification re: recent reversion, not for the first time: [3]. The event may be notable, but its significance must be supported by objective references, it doesn't belong at the top of the article, and may be a copyright violation. Similar issues exist throughout the article. 99.11.4.60 (talk) 01:49, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

I am anxious to address the difficulties to which you refer but your response, "much of it", is neither accurate nor helpful in identifying the areas of concern. I have updated at intervals the factual content of what is purely the written history of an organisation. In response to your earlier suggestions, I have removed a number of phrases that I would agree were subjective. If heading the article with "Recent Events" is problematic, I am happy to remove this and place those events within their chronolgical order in the main body of text. Please do quote any other examples of promotional text or sections of concern and I shall remove or re-write them. With thanks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jezza264Jezza264 (talk) 01:58, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Any content that is not supported by objective reliable sources, per WP:RELIABLE, doesn't belong. Just because content is factual doesn't mean it's suitable for an encyclopedia--hence, since Wikipedia is not a noticeboard for updating an organization's productions, much of this doesn't belong. Again, such protracted discussions--as this is becoming, and from which I'll soon depart-- don't occur unless there's been an inherent conflict of interest. 99.11.4.60 (talk) 02:18, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Copyright problems

There are multiple additions from http://www.nymt.org.uk/history/history.html in the history of this article and added at different times. It has now become a derivative work and revision deletion may be very complicated and impractical. I have blanked the article and re-listed it at Wikipedia:Copyright problems/2012 July 13. Note if any of the editors here have permission from the website to have used this material it must be properly documented before the article can be unblanked. Follow the instructions on the template now blanking the article under Can you help resolve this issue?. Click on "Show" for each option to see what needs to be done. Voceditenore (talk) 17:10, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Voceditenore. I appreciate the difficulties here but I had, subsequent to previous advice, entirely rewritten my own contributions to this article, ensuring that it was properly referenced and attributed, objective and entirely factual. These passages have also been completely re-worded. The chronological order of events has been preserved and that is all. Much of the original Wikipedia article pre-dates the website version, which first appeared, I think, in January 2011. I am unclear as to the simplest and most effective way to resolve this issue. Please advise. Jezza264Jezza264 (talk) 18:08, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

The current version of the article is reasonably OK, although there is still a small amount of close paraphrasing from the NYMT web site. Take a look at the Duplication Detector report comparing the last version before it was blanked and the current version of the NYMT site. The phrases/sentences in bold are the same in both the WP article and the NYMT "History" page. The copying from the NYMT site was first introduced in January 2009 with this edit. Here's a Duplication Detector report comparing that version with the NYTM website page as it looked in 2008 using the Wayback Machine. WP clearly copied a big chunk from the web site.

The way forward will depend on an adminstrator's decision. Because the previous versions from 2009 onwards contain copyvio in varying degrees, they might have to be selectively deleted. If that becomes too complicated, it may simply be reverted to the version before the copyvio was first added. My advice would be to start again and write a completely clean version at this temporary page. The old article will be deleted and this new one will replace it. It's OK to copy the lists of names and the images to the new version as well as the references. I also think you'll produce a better article that way rather than one produced by trying to re-jig the NYMT version, phrase by phrase—more or less what's been happening here over the last year. Voceditenore (talk) 15:03, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Note: The above Duplication Detector links are no longer accurate as the article versions which they were comparing have been deleted. Voceditenore (talk) 16:05, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Some more advice if you decide to go the re-write route rather than have the NYMT release all their material to Wikipedia under a CC-by-SA license following the procedures at Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials... Leave out a "recent history" section. In fact leave out the whole concept of recent history. Stop updating the WP page with the minute detail of every new event at the NYMT. This is an encyclopedia article, not an alternative version of their web site. Only include something if it has had multiple independent press coverage, and even then, be brief. A total no-no is listing future plans/events. It's completely unencyclopedic. Voceditenore (talk) 15:31, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, again Voceditenore. Very helpful and constructive. Future plans/events, if known and reported elsewhere, could, however, be encyclopedic (encyclopaedia = compendium of knowledge and N.B. information). This page might be an example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Summer_Olympics. But I take your point! Jezza264 (talk) 23:31, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Um... future performances of this youth theatre group are not quite the same thing as the 2012 Summer Olympics. And yes Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, but it is also not "an indiscriminate collection of information" or "a crystal ball" or "a complete exposition of all possible details". If a major newspaper devotes an article to your upcoming performances, then list them and reference them to the newspaper, not to yourselves. In any case, as you can see below, I have written a copyvio-free new article which will shortly be moved into place. There are very good reasons why Wikipedia strongly discourages editing where there is a conflict of interest. What happened to this article is a prime illustration of that. And I don't just mean the copyvio. Unencyclopedic puffery was continuously being added and had to be removed by univolved editors, e.g.

National Youth Music Theatre is collaborating with the American musical theatre composer, lyricist and playwright, Jason Robert Brown, who has been hailed as “one of Broadway’s smartest and most sophisticated songwriters since Stephen Sondheim”

This popular two-hander stars recent alumni, Rosie Clarkson and Dom Hodson

Trust me, this kind of PR editing is blindingly obvious to any neutral reader and actually detracts from the image of the article's subject rather than enhancing it. Please read Wikipedia:Conflict of interest and follow the guidance there scrupulously in future. That includes proposing any changes or additions to the article here on its talk page rather than making them yourself. Voceditenore (talk) 11:19, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Re-write

I have completely re-written the article at Talk:National Youth Music Theatre/Temp. In a couple of days, an adminstrator will move this into the main article space, delete the versions containing copyvio or derivatives of it, and merge the two histories. Voceditenore (talk) 18:18, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Now done. Voceditenore (talk) 13:06, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Conflict of interest editing continues

Jezza264, most of the changes you made last night were minor improvements to the prose and typo correction, which are acceptable. However, I reverted the way you listed Prince Edward in the Infobox per the Wikipedia Manual of Style for Biographies. Save the "H.R.H." etc. for your website if that's how you wish to style him. The other change I reverted was typical of editors with a conflict of interest. You changed: "Over the years, the NYMT stayed afloat with..." to Over the years, the NYMT thrived with..." I have now changed it to "Over the years, the NYMT's main funding came from...". Save the "thrive" for your own website and press releases.

You are the self-admitted Producer of the NYMT. Once again, I'm asking you to please read the guidelines at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest and abide by them scrupulously. You need to propose any substantive change of wording or tone or any addition of new material here on the talk page, for non-involved editors to consider. They will make the changes if appropriate. Do not make them yourself, and do not treat this article as an extension of your website. Voceditenore (talk) 07:03, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. Your re-write is extremely good and I appreciate the time and trouble you have taken. I made the small edits before realising you had asked that I should propose such changes. I shall in future do so. As you rightly say, the changes I have made have been merely to correct. Your own phrase "stayed afloat" is picturesque and emotive but unreferenced and inaccurate. It better describes the period of activity after the "financial crisis" [4] than the period before. Your latest edit is uncontentious. I am a little concerned by the tone of the phrase, "Save the 'H.R.H.' etc. for your website if that's how you wish to style him." It is not how I wish it - it is of no matter to me - but it is correct. I have no issue with the reversion for compliance purposes. As I have previously stated, I have no wish to use this page to promote the NYMT, merely to ensure that its contents are accurate. Your help and guidance are greatly appreciated. Knowing now what is properly required, I am happy for others to maintain the page and will only suggest here any additions or corrections when necessary.Jezza264 (talk) 09:42, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Please could you remove Matthew Bourne from the list of former members? This is referenced by Andrew Girvan in Whatsonstage [5] but is not accurate.Jezza264 (talk) 10:02, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

I've removed it. Before adding it, I checked the NYMT website, and Where are they Now? April 2008 seems to state that he is. You might to correct that on the website. Voceditenore (talk) 11:01, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Don't trust everything that you read in the papers! I'll ask them to remove that from the article. Thanks again.Jezza264 (talk) 11:39, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Like I said, the problem is also with the NYMT official site. I cross-checked with the official NYMT site before I added the name. Please see this section of the NYMT site titled "Where are they Now? April 2008". It seems to state that Matthew Bourne is a former member:

"NEWS OF NYMT ALUMNI The success stories go on and on...KERRY ELLIS - Currently playing Elphaba in the West End production of 'Wicked' having also played the role of Glinda. TIFFANY GRAVES - Played Velma Kelly in 'Chicago' and recently was in the UK tour of 'Godspell'. MATTHEW BOURNE - Will be choreographer and co-director of Cameron Mackintosh's production of 'Oliver' at the Theatre Royal Drury Lane. DOMINIC TIGHE - Has been nominated..."

That is why I suggested you also correct your site. Otherwise, it will keep appearing in news articles.Voceditenore (talk) 12:42, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Indeed and agreed. That is what I meant when I said that I would ask them to remove it from the article on the NYMT's (not my) website. And it has now been done. I was thanking you for drawing it to my attention. Matthew Bourne does not appear in the list of alumni on the official website page: [6] but he was incorrectly sited within an article from 2008 on the website by Jeremy James Taylor from which you, apparently, extracted your facts. That has now been corrected on the NYMT's website. Indebted. Jezza264 (talk) 21:21, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Suggested update to the section Relaunch 2005 to the Present

Voceditenore, in order to bring the chapter up to the present, please would you add that the American composer, lyricist and playwright Jason Robert Brown collaborated with the NYMT to produce the West End première of his musical 13, which Brown also directed at The Apollo, Shaftesbury Avenue in August 2012? The company also produced his first musical theatre piece, Songs for a New World at the Bridewell Theatre, directed by Sarah Redmond, who had appeared in the UK première of the work in the same theatre. For references, I'd suggest Mark Shenton's review of 13 [7] and, for Songs for a New World, Ken Plummer's review here: [8]. The poster image for 13 may be found here: [9]. With thanks Jezza264 (talk) 13:01, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Done, although I pruned the detail a bit. When we have articles on the subject, it is not necessary to repeat the same material again in this article. Note also, I have restored the Talk page posts here. While you can delete or archive posts on your personal talk page, you should never delete posts from article talk pages (yours or anyone elses's). The only exceptions are violations of our policies on biograpies of living people or copyright, vandalism or serious personal attacks. WP:TALK explains this policy and the reasons for it. Voceditenore (talk) 06:59, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. Apologies for deletions. Please could you correct NYT to NYMT in your most recent edit? The two are frequently confused! Jezza264 (talk) 13:29, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

NATIONAL YOUTH MUSIC THEATRE corrections & additions

Dear Voceditenore, I note that Richard Stilgoe has been added to the alumni list. He wrote Bodywork for the NYMT, as mentioned in the reference given, and he also served as a trustee, but he is not an alumnus. Please would you remove? It has also been brought to my attention that the following alumni are conspiciously missing from the list: Zoe Birkett, Robin Blaze, Stephen Graham (actor), Sally Hawkins, Toby Jones and Simon Thomas (television presenter). With many thanks. Jezza264 (talk) 23:19, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Done, although I noticed that a previous addition, Andrew Wright, points to a disambiguation page. If none of the articles there refer to the person who was a past member of NYMT, then I will remove it. Also, please do not change signatures of previous posts as you appear to have done here. Talk pages need to be accurate records of who said what and when. Voceditenore (talk) 20:00, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Yes, Andrew Wright is the choreographer. There is no Wiki page for him, as yet, so a deletion or removal of the link would seem to be in order. Apologies for any deletion. I updated my own signature when I corrected my message to you.86.1.84.22 (talk) 21:37, 27 November 2012 (UTC)Jezza264 (talk) 21:39, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

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