Talk:Moroccan invasion of the Songhai Empire

Initial notes

Just a note this page was initially created by transferring content from the Saadi Sultanate page. The existing content should be relatively ok but it's probably missing more information on the Songhai Empire's background and the wider West African context, which is something I'm less familiar with and which was less relevant for the main Saadi page.
Also, for the page's name, this was the best I could think of but I'm not strictly married to this title. "Invasion of the Songhai Empire" seemed appropriate as several sources I've looked at (e.g. Encyclopedia of African History or Kaba 1981, cited in page) refer to it as the "(Moroccan) Invasion". I decided to add "Saadian" to avoid ambiguity with any other military events in the region I might not be familiar with, and also picked "Saadian" instead of "Moroccan" to avoid any issues about anachronistic or nationalistic labels corresponding to modern nation-states. R Prazeres (talk) 21:01, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 11 December 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved (non-admin closure) BegbertBiggs (talk) 18:14, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

---

Saadian invasion of the Songhai Empire → Moroccan invasion of the Songhai Empire – The term is widely used in scholarly historical sources. For instance, in a highly specialized book by Comer Plummer III, the subtitle is "the Moroccan conquest of the Songhai empire". This term is prevalent among numerous historians, please check the following links [1][2][3] 808 AD (talk) 21:01, 11 December 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Bensci54 (talk) 21:33, 18 December 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 22:16, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Weak oppose: There's no conventional name for this event, so any title chosen for the article is merely a descriptive one. The fact that the word "Moroccan" is used in many sources isn't any more significant than the fact that the term "Sudan" is also used. The difference, however, is that "Saadi(an)" and "Songhai Empire" are more WP:PRECISE. So I don't see what is gained by referring to a modern-day national label instead of referring to the actual historical political regime that carried out the invasion.

Additional comment: This isn't crucial to the discussion, but please note that Comer Plummer III is not an academic and his books are not reliable sources, they are self-published. R Prazeres (talk) 02:15, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

The term "Moroccan" remains more precise as, even after the end of the de facto rule in the Timbuktu region, a Moroccan influence persisted. The Arma people, descendants of Moroccan invaders, continued to govern the area and acknowledge spiritual suzerainty of Moroccan sultans, even after the fall of the Saadids and the rise of the Alawids. As for Comer Plummer III, I think you are right about him. But that changes nothing. 808 AD (talk) 08:47, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Morocco has been notified of this discussion. Bensci54 (talk) 21:33, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Mali has been notified of this discussion. R Prazeres (talk) 21:52, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support. Lots of sources refer merely to the Moroccan invasion of Songhai, without making any mention of the term "Saadian" at all (e.g. [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11] etc.) The converse is not the case. Makes the article unnecessarily obscure and less recognizable to readers. Walrasiad (talk) 02:55, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Support. While 'Saadian' is a valid and precise term, it's unnecessarily specific. The term 'Morocco' derives from 'Marrakesh', which was the Saadian capital. This article should use 'Moroccan' just like an article on the colonization of the Americas should use 'British' rather than 'Tudor' or 'French' rather than 'Bourbon'. Catjacket (talk) 17:58, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.