Talk:Money.Net

Date of incorporation JacksonGreene -- According to the Delaware Corporation office, Money.net is incorporated in 1999. According to domainname registration, The domain name is registered in 1997. If neither of the statements are correct, Please discuss here before changing it on main page. Incorrectly quoted article cannot be primary source for data of incorporation.

Please refer to the link in the article http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Money.net+Expands+Real-Time+Streaming+Portfolio+and+Introduces...-a068991621, which clearly states the date of publication is Jan 11, 2001 and then CEO and founder was H.L. Van Arnem

Until this dispute has been settled, please do not add innacurate data.

Registered User count

Please add any verifiable source for Registered user count. The user count has reference to link [[1]] that shows user count for a product called screamer platinum ($9.99) created on Jan 11, 2001. That product is not currently offered. Other source that is offered is broken link on AT&T business registry. — Preceding signed comment added by Fintech2k (talk • contribs) 22:19, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

JacksonGreene Comments on Fintech2k talk page moved here

Money.Net was founded in 2014 according to three major publications that are all cited (including the New York Times). The date of incorporation, if that is correct, is not relevant to the creation of a new enterprise as many corporations are legally shelf companies that were created as placeholders decades before they are used to found a company.

The entities cited are The New York Times, Forbes and The New York Post.

Fintech2K is not adhering to the fact that independent journalism from sources that are national "Newspapers of Record" are valid and respected sources for citation. They are not propaganda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JacksonGreene (talk • contribs) 22:07, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

JacksonGreene, Please do not revert the changes. The company is founded in 1999. That's an indisputable fact. The current management might want to rebrand and claim the relaunch of new product not previously available as if its launched in 2014 but that still does not change the fact that the firm is founded in 1999. Please discuss this on the talk Money.Net page. I have solicited wikipedia admin to resolve this issue as the user JacksonGreene seems to promote company claim rather than sticking to the facts. — Preceding signed comment added by Fintech2k (talk • contribs) 23:19, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Forbes article cited by JacksonGreene states that Money.Net is launched in 2014, but the company is founded in 1999. New York Times doesn't say the company is founded in 2014. The only corroborated fact is from Delaware Division of Corporations and a secondary article written in 2001 establishing that Money.Net is founded well before 2001.— Preceding signed comment added by Fintech2k (talk • contribs) 23:58, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

The Forbes, The New York Time, and The New York Post articles cited by JacksonGreene all state that the company was founded in 2014. Fintech2k, a username recently created and used just to edit this single article, is engaging in Ad Hominem attacks on JacksonGreene for citing these national Newspapers of Record. Fintech24 cites a website that directly contradicts multiple national Newspapers of Record. Fintech24 was thus created solely to vandalize this single article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JacksonGreene (talk • contribs) 01:18, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

3O, Third Opinion

1. Henceforth please sign all your edits by using 4 consecutive ~
2. Can you both explicitly link the references you are each relying on in this section.
For Founder, relied on the

• a) PRNewswire dated Feb, 2014 mentioning Founder link,
• b) Bloomberg powered by S&P Global Market Intelligence identifying Harold Louis Van Arnem IV as Founder and Executive Chairman of The Board link,
• c) PRNewswire article dated Jan, 2001 mentioning founder link and
• d) Company website mentioning founder link

For Founded, relied on

• a) Bloomberg powered by S&P Global Market Intelligence link,
• b) State of Delaware: Division of Corporations link, and
• c) PRNewswire - FreeLibrary article dated 2001 this article is about money.net and its founders and its products in January 2001.
• d) New York State Division of corporate records link
• e) D&B Hoovers listing link
• f) MarketingSherpa article dated Dec, 2000 link
• g) Dun & Bradstreet link Fintech2k (talk) 15:22, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. We obviously can't use any of your PRNewsWire cites or anything which is a PR / promo piece (even if published in a 'Newspapers of Record'). Also I get 5 hits with the Delaware lookup, so that's 'iffy' too without a secondary RS. So let's wait and see what the other editor has to say. Inlinetext (talk) 15:44, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Of the 5 hits, only two are Money.Net (one in an Inc and other in a LLC) both of which are incorporated in 1999 Fintech2k (talk) 16:16, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Added New York State Division of Corporate records which clearly indicates for both Money.net INC and Money.Net LLC registered dates are in 1999. Fintech2k (talk) 16:35, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Cool, but we can't use Primary sources except to substantiate a secondary one. The key point to remember is that a reliable secondary source must be founded on a primary one/event. So let's wait for the other editor to make his case. Inlinetext (talk) 16:55, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

3. As far as I understand it independently, Money.net was founded in 1998 and Mr. Harold Louis Van Arnem IV is Founder and Executive Chairman of The Board link. The second claim is probably based on the website's own claims or filings. Can't tell yet if this is the same person.
4. To: User:JacksonGreene please clarify -

• a) If Money.net was founded in 2014, then who are ".. Money.net (www.money.net), which includes affordable streaming real-time portfolios and ancillary tools;" from Nov. 2003 in WSJ.
• b) If the MONEY.NET domain name registered since about 1998 is connected, or not, to Harold Louis Van Arnem IV,
• c) If Harold Arnem IV is not also the domain name registrant for (i) http://pcquote.com/ and (ii) http://marketscreen.com/, both since 1998 and which redirect to money.net.
• d) If money.net has been continuously operating, or not, since at least 1999 in essentially the same business it does at present under the same company name, ie Money Net Inc.
• e) Whether you have any conflict of interest concerning this company or this topic. Inlinetext (talk) 05:39, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

• To User:JacksonGreene. In the event you don't present your case soon (say with 12 hours ?), I shall deliver my opinion ex-parte. Thanks. Inlinetext (talk) 18:50, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

OPINION. FWIW, we have here 2 SPA's representing different interests warring on ths page. The article subject began as a finance information forum in 1997, in 1998 they registered their website MONEY.NET and in 1999 they registered their corporation. I find the Bloomberg and D&B-Hoover links to be reliable secondary sources. I also find the website's own links reliable. I find the 3 'Newspaper of record' links cited by 'JacksonGreene' as unreliable PR of the type which is routinely published by even national newspapers. Accordingly I find the foundation date of MONEY.NET to be 1998 and the Founder as Harold Louis Van Arnem IV as reliable for inclusion. It is apparent why the present management does not wish their Founder's conection to be prominent. Incidentally, archive.org has extensive archives of the website starting from here. Inlinetext (talk) 18:48, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

The "unreliable PR" includes the New York Times, the company's own web site, and other third party sites such as CrunchBase. This goes to the core of Wikipedia. This firm was founded in 2014 from all verifiable sources. There are no other verifiable sources, apart from archived websites, from "money" sites. Ignoring The New York Times, the company's own web site, and other third party sites such as CrunchBase is simply inaccurate and misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JacksonGreene (talk • contribs) 19:22, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Our intention is to provide unbiased neutral information about this entity derived from all verifiable sources, Most verifiable sources are pointing to 1998 as incorporation date. Please check WP:Verifiability and it is important to not add WP:UNDUE weight of selective sources. Fintech2k (talk) 17:54, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Explanation

a) If Money.net was founded in 2014, then who are ".. Money.net (www.money.net), which includes affordable streaming real-time portfolios and ancillary tools;" from Nov. 2003 in WSJ.

ANSWER: Multiple sources including The New York Times, Crunchbase and others state that the firm was founded in 2014. There may have been a prior use of the domain, but that has no connection to the firm that was founded in 2014. Domains change hands all the time as new businesses are founded and prior entities cease to exist.

b) If the MONEY.NET domain name registered since about 1998 is connected, or not, to Harold Louis Van Arnem IV,

Answer: The Whois indicates the domain is owned by Money.Net Inc. and not by any private individual.

c) If Harold Arnem IV is not also the domain name registrant for (i) http://pcquote.com/ and (ii) http://marketscreen.com/, both since 1998 and which redirect to money.net.

ANSWER: Many sites re-direct to others. For example, square.com redirects to squareup.com. That has no bearing on the founding date of Money.Net as a new venture in 2014.

d) If money.net has been continuously operating, or not, since at least 1999 in essentially the same business it does at present under the same company name, ie Money Net Inc.

ANSWER: Money.Net is publicly acknowledged by multiple independently verifiable sources as having begun operations in its current form in 2014. Legal entities are bought and sold all the time, but a company's "founding" is when the business effectively begins and this was 2014.

e) Whether you have any conflict of interest concerning this company or this topic. Inlinetext (talk) 05:39, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

ANSWER: I have created many market information wikipedia entries including, for example Quotron. I care about the quality, veracity and sourcing of all of my updates and have an interest in this area as I cover this industry as a journalist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JacksonGreene (talk • contribs) 21:45, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Crunchbase's information can be edited by any user. Please look at archive.org, for money.net website as far back as 2000 that clearly shows Harold Louis Van Arnem IV as founder and CEO. S&P Market Intelligence confirms this. New York and Delaware's Department of state confirms the incorporation date in Delaware and registration as foreign corporation in New York state.

Dun and Bradstreet is used as a credit check agency for corporations. So it is a reliable secondary source.

In this case, the domain name did not change hands and the corporate stayed the same since 1998.

Refer to archive.org's 2004 Money.Net website states "Harold L. (H. L.) Van Arnem - Chief Executive Officer Mr. Van Arnem founded the Company in January 1998, and has served as Chairman and Chief Executive Officer since that date. Under his command, Money.Net became the first company on the internet to provide free real-time streaming portfolio tracking to individual investors. Money.Net is a pioneer in streaming quotes and clearly raised the bar in the industry of financial information and technology". And the current Money.Net website, states Same Harold Louis Van Arnem IV as founder as does other reliable sources. So there is no change of ownership or shell companies or not bought or sold. Fintech2k (talk) 03:28, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Dun and Bradstreet is an not a valid source. Just google "Dun and Bradstreet Incorrect" and a huge number of complaints appear. Dun and Bradstreet is commonly cited for incorrect unsubstantiated information. See http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/dun-bradstreet/internet/dun-bradstreet-incorrect-information-about-my-company-published-to-the-web-without-perm-1300959 Dun and Bradstreet is a private company that attempts to guess at private company details without providing any sourcing links. This is Wikipedia. We should be using primary sourcing that I have cited and linked to and not rely on incorrect, and inaccurate private third party databases. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JacksonGreene (talk • contribs) 03:50, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

We should cite the primary sources, such as The New York Times, that are verifiable and in the public domain and not these shady arbitrary inaccurate private databases that have been proven time and time again in the court system to be unreliable.

NYTimes does not maintain a database of all corporations and an article should not be used as a source unless confirmed by secondary sources. All the secondary sources, and as confirmed by primary sources, cite 1998 as the year of founding by Harold Van Arnem. Not understanding what your goal is here. Wikipedia is not a soap box for any company but we need to get to the 'most likely' truth by building consensus of all sources available.Fintech2k (talk) 14:50, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Need assistance from editors to prevent Fintech2K adding unverifiable data revisions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JacksonGreene (talk • contribs) 16:14, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Third party has already concurred that the founder and founded are correct and should be included. Please check prior section of OPINION of third party. I welcome a review for another opinion but until then, please do not delete content from this page Fintech2k (talk) 17:03, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Please do NOT remove neutrality warning on the page unless we have consensus on the founder and founded Fintech2k (talk) 17:08, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

The Neutrality of Fintech2K is disputed. Fintech2K is vandalizing this entry and appears to have insider knowledge of information which indicates ulterior motives and a connection with this article other than being a neutral party. Fintech2K is not a netural party to this Wikipedia entry. The account Fintech2K was solely created to vandalize this entry. Look at the contribs of Fintech2K...the account is not neutral and is undoing the accurate impartial sourcing with references to unverifiable databases. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JacksonGreene (talk • contribs) 17:20, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

All we need is accurate information from all reliable sources. I have shown from the company's own website that its created by and creation date as well as creator current officer. Fintech2k (talk) 17:26, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Excessive 3RR violations

Given the incessant edit warring on this article I have fully protected it for 1 week and blocked the two editors involved for 24 hours for some of the most egregious WP:3RR violations I have seen as an admin. Once the 24 hour blocks expire I expect that proper dispute resolution is followed to determine consensus rather than smashing the undo button ad nauseum.--Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 18:10, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

There were several discussions before regarding the content including third party opinion. Basically it boils down to weightage of various sources sighted. We need help from WP:Dispute_resolution to resolve this matter and stop using this page as soapbox for marketing Fintech2k (talk) 20:06, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Edit Dispute Resolution

The core of this issue is as follows: when was Money.Net founded and by whom?

Fintech2k cites a date of Legal Incorporation by a single person.

Money.Net itself cites in Forbes, The New York Times, and many other public venues as having been “founded” in 2014 by several individuals. As per Wikipedia’s own definition of “date of founding”:

The date of establishment or date of founding of an institution is the date on which that institution chooses to claim as its starting point. Often the criteria that define a date of establishment or founding are ill-defined—or more specifically, are ill-defined in general, although each institution tends to adopt a rather rigid definition of its own date of establishment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_of_establishment

Based on Wikipedia’s definition of “date of founding”, the date and founders mentioned in the article should be that cited by Money.Net itself in multiple third party news sources.

If the above is good, let's have the article reflect this.

The problem with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_of_establishment is its not sourced properly and needs citations, hence unreliable and should not be used for definition.Fintech2k (talk) 20:15, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Fintech2K is citing a legal incorporation date of 1999 as the founding date, whereas the company itself, through third party media coverage, states that the establishment date, or founding, of Money.Net was 2014. Legal incorporation is not the same as founding, which is not a legal term, and generally refers to when the business itself says that date was. Money.Net say their founding was 2014 in multiple sources. This is why the founding date and founder cited by Fintech2K are not correct - it directly conflicts with the company's own statements from multiple independent media sources.

Here is a good description on Quora of the difference between founding and incorporation dates: https://www.quora.com/Can-I-add-a-founder-after-incorporation-in-the-US — Preceding unsigned comment added by JacksonGreene (talk • contribs) 04:42, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

Also, incorporation is just one minor part in the founding process.

Facebook, for example, was founded in February 2004, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook but was actually legally incorporated in November 2004.

This is why the date cited in the Money.Net article should be the date the company founders state on the record was that of their business founding - which is January 2014 and not a date of incorporation, which is not used anywhere else on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JacksonGreene (talk • contribs) 05:01, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

What about Money.Net's own claim of formation in 1998? Fintech2k (talk) 18:30, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

RfC about Money.Net founded and founder data

The consensus was summarized by the RfC initiator below: "Consensus is to display available valid sources for founded and founder in the info box. Since the only verifiable information is 1999 as founded and Harold L. Van Arnem as the founder were confirmed, we should make those changes." Cunard (talk) 06:13, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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For accurate founder and founded information, what appropriate sources should be considered and how much weightage must given to any source given conflicting information exists as discussed in the talk section above Fintech2k (talk) 18:39, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

• I have concerns about User:JacksonGreene's argument to use recently published articles to extract founded information as 2014. Fintech2k (talk) 18:39, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
  • When searched online including archive.org, S&P Market Intelligence etc., It could easily be ascertained that the business of Money.Net has not changed significantly and neither did its founder, who continues to operate and is currently listed as founder of Money.Net. With respect the founded, At various times prior to 2010, Firms's website claimed to have founded the firm and operated it since 1998. The argument by User:JacksonGreene that a firm can claim any date as founded date as published in recent articles is whimsical at best. Fintech2k (talk) 18:39, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Nobody is an actually fully reliable source for the facts of his own life, and the same is true for any organization. We use that information nonetheless as usually the best we can get, but it there is reliably sourced information we use it--when it contradicts, we give both, with the sources. This is the basic principle of NPOV. If it's a question of finding one date for an infobox or lede, there's usually some formulation like 1994 or 1996, or in the 1990s. (Just for completeness, we have special rules for the gender and religion and nationality of living people -- these are considered internal matters of identity and we accept what they say. it doesn't apply to companies.) DGG ( talk ) 05:11, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

I agree with what DGG is saying here. Elinruby (talk) 00:06, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

As there a two directly conflicting dates: with a) Fintech2K only using one single source for 1999 that conflicts directly with statements on founding date of 2014 directly from the subject of the article and b) multiple independent sources stating 2014 is the founding date, then we should at least admit there is a conflict and remove the founding details that Fintech2K keeps inserting (1999) as they are in dispute (I am using "in dispute" to be civil here, as the 2014 date of founding stated in The New York Times and multiple other papers of record, hugely outweighs Fintech2K's agenda to somehow vandalize this page by inserting 1999) ?

User:JacksonGreene, please stick with the facts of topic at discussion and do not get personal. Keep focus on the topic

Multiple sources including company's own website stated in various publications as 1998 that precedes the date of incorporation as verified by primary sources such as Department of State of both Delaware and New York where the company is incorporated. With respect the the founder, that information is widely reported in the same sources. Since the company is in the same business since its incorporation with various upgrades, there is not change in business to any legal separation of subsidiary or entity. Also, 2014 as cited by certain articles could not be verified anywhere. Let's wait for more comments before building consensus on what to include and making any changes Fintech2k (talk) 11:25, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

The sources available for determination of Founder and founded are as follows

For Founded:

1. Founded in 1998 as described in 2005 website link

2. Incorporated in 1999 as mentioned in Bloomberg/S&P Marketintelligence sitelink

3. 2014 as mentioned in the article in IrishTimes link - But this article never directly states that the company is founded in 2014 but about platform launch in 2014

4. The New York times article doesn't state founded date or 2014 at all link. What is your source of NY Times article claim

For Founder:

1. Harold L. (H. L.) Van Arnem as mentioned in 2005 website link

2. Harold Louis Van Arnem IV as mentioned in 2017 website link

Is the product/service of the company different to warrant a different founded date? or is it evolutionary

Services and products as outlined in company's prior Website from 2004 link

Services and products as described in most recent Website link Fintech2k(talk) 15:14, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

User:JacksonGreene, if you are disputing the founder and founded information, please quote appropriate sources. No one can verify 2014 as founded date. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fintech2k (talk • contribs) 13:46, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

User:JacksonGreene is again engaging in edit war to prove a point without quoting appropriate sources. Fintech2k (talk) 14:35, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

User Fintech2K has created a Wikipedia user account solely to vandalize this page. This is not an edit war. This is vandalism by Fintech2K.

Please cite sources. Not just assertions Fintech2k (talk) 14:59, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

• Comment for RFC only I know nothing about this matter, which may be fortunate. My recommendation on generic principles is: where details/facts are disputed, especially where they are not of crucial importance, omit them until the dispute is settled, if ever. Disputes on such matters of fact commonly are not vital, partly because such facts commonly are not vital; if they are, they commonly establish themselves in due course. Sometimes it might be desirable to mention that a dispute exists (... so&so claims that such&such was established... but this is disputed by X&Y...) but where it is not practicable for us to establish the facts, it is not our job to settle the matter, much less take sides. Another relevant question is whether the disagreement simply arises arises from cross purposes; eg, X says the establishment was at date A, Y says date B. Was X referring to when the founders first began discussing the matter, while Y meant when the company appeared on the stock market? Etc etc. Half the matter sounds like a storm in a teacup, the other sounds like it is the wrong teacup. Neither cup belongs in the article. JonRichfield (talk)
• Responding to RfC: If there are multiple, contradictory sources, we state both claims, with their appropriate sources and any background information necessary for context. Anaxial (talk) 15:54, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
• 1999 - per Bloomberg - link summoned by Bot. I'm not seeing anything else credible. We can't trust their own site because they may have any number of reasons why they might want to ignore the early days of Money.net. If another credible site comes up, we can confirm their sourcing, and then note the date controversy. I'd be interested to see the incorporation records referenced above from the Department of State of both Delaware and New York - anyone have a link? Timtempleton (talk) 07:33, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Incorporation records:

* a) State of Delaware: Division of Corporations link, and

* b) New York State Division of corporate records link Fintech2k (talk) 16:04, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. I searched the Delaware State info (search using money.net) and came up with two entities: MONEY.NET LLC (File #3039293, dated 5/54/99, and MONEY.NET INCORPORATED (File #:3146911, dated 12/22/99).

Searching the New York State site, Money.net LLC was listed as 5/12/99, with this info:

DOS Process: MONEY.NET LLC, ATTN: H.L. VAN ARNEM, 225 LAFAYETTE STREET, STE 1200, NEW YORK, NEW YORK, 10012

Money.net Incorporated was filed at 12/30/99, with this info:

DOS Process: MONEY.NET INCORPORATED, 333 HUDSON STREET - #305, NEW YORK, NEW YORK, 10013

Chief Executive Officer, MORGAN DOWNEY, 515 GREENWICH ST #504, NEW YORK, NEW YORK, 10013

Principal Executive Office, MONEY.NET INCORPORATED, 515 GREENWICH ST #504, NEW YORK, NEW YORK, 10013

The entities match the company name, the registrants match the names of the founder and CEO, and the 333 Hudson Street address is the same as listed on the company's contact page, so these are indeed the same as the current Money.net, and I reject the hypothesis that the businesses changed focus and transferred ownership between 1999 and 2014. This reaffirms my support for the 1999 founding date, using either of these two links as the source. Regardless of the long contentious history, this seems to be one of the easiest settled and least controversial RFCs that I've been summoned to. Timtempleton (talk) 04:25, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

RfC Conclusion: Consensus is to display available valid sources for founded and founder in the info box. Since the only verifiable information is 1999 as founded and Harold L. Van Arnem as the founder were confirmed, we should make those changes. User:JacksonGreene, if you can provide a valid verifiable source that shows a different date and founder, then we could display that in the info box with appropriate links along with original date and founder. Fintech2k (talk) 21:17, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Information

This information relates to predecessor of Money.Net Holdings, Inc. the assets of Money.Net Incorporated were acquired through Federal bankruptcy process and any information dated before June 4, 2021 relates to the previous company and management. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Moneynetemployee (talk • contribs) 10:33, 27 February 2022 (UTC)