Talk:Mineiro

Not a dialect

There is absolutely no such thing as a Mineiro dialect. It is, at most, a regional variant. The claims that (1) "mineiro" is avoided by its adopters is false (most inhabitants of Belo Horizonte adopt a milder version of it) and (2) that it is considered a lower variation is unfounded. It's probably considered no better or worse than "nordestino", "gaúcho" or "carioca" (Well, perhaps better than "carioca.") --AndreFillipe (talk) 19:33, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

It is simply not a dialect. It's just a type of accent and different expressions, which is quite common in all countries. It's like saying the english from New York is an english dialect. And by the way, the claim above that "carioca" portuguese is "worse" than "mineiro" is absurd, since not only is Rio de Janeiro the most culturally and historically important city in the country, but the accent and expressions of its inhabitants are both shared and recognized by most Brazilians. The same thing could not be said of regions like São Paulo and Rio Grande do Sul. In any case, this article should be simply deleted, since it's totally misrepresented. -- 201.52.16.108 00:57, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I fully Agree with the statement above. I actually speak Portugese-Brazilian with a Belo Horizonte accent. Simply due to the fact.. I'm from there. The overall difference between the soft spoken paulista accent og the fast talking accent of Carioca. Is just that. Citizens from both Sao Paulo and Rio, say that people from the Minas Gerais, simply speak more clearly and slowly. Nothing more...

Just to put the discussion in context for non-Brazilians who might be following it: the reactions above illustrate a typical Brazilian reluctance to use the term "dialect", which is culturally perceived as having a negative connotation. Of course, in purely linguistic terms, "mineiro" is obviously a dialect of the Brazilian Portuguese language (no negative interpretation attached). Likewise, contrary to what one commentator wrote above, one usually refers in the U.S. to e.g. the "Southern American" , "New Englander", or "General American/Midwestern" dialects. Personally, I think there is nothing wrong with the "mineiro" article. In fact, it is quite well-written, especially its description of "mineiro" phonology (further information on "mineiro" grammar and vocabulary could be added though). 201.52.32.9 11:58, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The article is not well written because it is entirely original research. Furthermore, my first remark (I have signed it now) was directed at the following part of the text (as of August 4, 2006):

The simultaneous occurrence of all the above features can render the dialect mostly unintelligible for those not used to it, but it rarely occurs --- as mineiro is regarded by some of its own speakers, specially the urban ones, as a "lower" dialect, a pattern to be avoided. For this same reason, Mineiro is never written, except for humoristic purposes, and usually looks "ugly" in the eyes of the Brazilians when it is done.

Is that connotative? --AndreFillipe (talk) 19:33, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Although I'm not a linguistics expert, I'd like to say I'm not sure whether Mineiro is a dialect or just an accent (I guess it depends on the linguistic tradition adopted). But, even in the case it's to be considered as a dialect, what would make it a separate dialect from Caipira? I'm from a town at the São Paulo state countryside, and, except for the pronunciation of "r", I can't tell any difference from what's being described here to my own way of speaking. Eumedemito 02:07, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

And, furthermore... Some of the features described seem to me as not specific to "Mineiro", but common to many, if not most, typical Brazilian dialects/accents/[whatever...]. And it's not clear whether those features are being compared to colloquial Brazilian Portuguese or to standard Portuguese. The latter, by the way, wouldn't make any sense. E.g.: It would sound weird to me if I heard anyone saying "pouco" as /'powku/ instead of /'poku/, except in a formal situation or perhaps on the news. It's important to note that there's a significant difference between the colloquial language and its standard form (usually associated with writing or formal situations). Eumedemito 07:43, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

The expression "dialect" carries some negative conotation in Brazil. This is probably thanks to the historical fact that slaves had all these different ways to talk among themselves and Portuguese was seen as the one "right" language to speak. Hence, there's a lot of protective feelings regarding the Portuguese language. Most Brazilian people wouldn't even consider Brazilian Portuguese as being a dialect of Portuguese - in fact, people would even consider it a different language, but wouldn't say it's a dialect. The same thing happens in the United States and is probably a characteristic common to countries with a large territory. I'm removing the "disputed" sign since it's there mainly due to linguistics ignorance - the Brazilian mineiro way of speaking is indeed a dialect, from a pure linguistic POV, albeit not a radical one (just in case you're wondering, I'm from Belo Horizonte, Minas Gerais, Brazil). --200.139.133.7 03:57, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

How much of this is original research? I've never seen such a discussion in scholarly fields, and Mineiro is more classified as a "falar" and not a dialect in itself. But if there are any scholarly works saying Mineiro is a dialect, please quote them in the article. As it stands, seems like original research. Bruno Gripp 20:42, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

"the reactions above illustrate a typical Brazilian reluctance to use the term "dialect", which is culturally perceived as having a negative connotation."

Not so. It rather illustrates the influence of Brazilian linguist J. Mattoso Câmara, who classified the regional variants of Brazilian Portuguese as "falares", not "dialetos".

Indeed, the (biased) terminology used in the article is absolutely confusing. It leads people to believe the Portuguese spoken in Minas Gerais is as different from the Portuguese spoken in Rio Grande do Sul as the Venetian dialect from the Sicilian dialect. Evidently, nothing could be farther from truth.

Also, the supposed characteristics of the Mineiro "dialect" in the article aren't well researched. Some are characteristics of most of Brazil, some of the Portuguese language itself (sonorization of final /s/ when next word begins with vowel), some do not seem to even match reality (dropping of initial /e/: definitely, not pronounced [spɔhtʃi] in Minas Gerais, unless, of course, previous word ends in vowel (o esporte -> [uspɔhtʃi] or [ʊspɔhtʃi]; but, os esportes -> [ʊzispɔhtʃi]. Ninguém (talk) 01:33, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Just to be very clear, "Mineiro", in reference to language, is never or only very rarely used as a substantive.

"Ele fala mineiro" ("He speaks mineiro") is not something you should expect to hear in Brazil. The correct sentence is, "Ele fala com sotaque mineiro" ("He speaks with a mineiro accent"). Ninguém (talk) 01:33, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Let me quote the Wikipedia article, Dialect:

The term dialect (from the Greek word διάλεκτος, dialektos) is used in two distinct ways, even by scholars of language. One usage refers to a variety of a language that is characteristic of a particular group of the language's speakers.[1] The term is applied most often to regional speech patterns, but a dialect may also be defined by other factors, such as social class.[2] A dialect that is associated with a particular social class can be termed a sociolect; a regional dialect may be termed a regiolect (or topolect). The other usage refers to a language socially subordinate to a regional or national standard language, often historically cognate to the standard, but not a variety of it or in any other sense derived from it. This more precise usage enables distinguishing between varieties of a language, such as the French spoken in Nice, France, and local languages distinct from the superordinate language, e.g. Nissart, the traditional native Romance language of Nice, known in French as Niçard.

We should here use "this more precise usage", in order to make it clear that the mineiro accent stands to Standard Portuguese as "the French spoken in Nice" stands for Standard French, and definitely not as Niçard to Standard French.

I am thence proposing the suppression of all references to "dialect" in this article. Ninguém (talk) 01:33, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Can't we move on from this point? It is clearly a dialect, as that word is used in English. Indeed, "falares" and "dialetos" both translate as dialect in English, we simply don't make a distinction between these minor variations, so where Câmara said that the minor variations are called "falares" which are grouped into "dialetos" ("As oposições superficiais, ou secundárias, criam dentro de uma língua as divisões chamadas falares, que por sua vez são agrupáveis em dialetos"), we would struggle to translate it into English and it would probably be rendered as "... the divisions called sub-dialects, which in turn are grouped into dialects", but I just made up "sub-dialect"! The only word I could think of in English that might approximate to something less than a dialect is "patois", but this word sometimes carries troubling social connotations similar to dialeto in Portuguese.

Further, the section you quote from dialect has been revised: One usage—the more common among linguists—refers to a variety of a language that is a characteristic of a particular group of the language's speakers.[1]

So, by both standards (normal English usage and as used by linguists), Mineiro is a dialect of Portuguese. Further, that is how it is referred to in the Portuguese language Wikipedia (https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialeto_mineiro). And the reason I want to move on from this is so we can make it generally better.

Manolan1 (talk) 19:55, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Changes

Made a few changes, see if you like it. Cheers

unsigned discussions

The message immediately above mine is not signed. If you have posted this message, please type four tildes after your contribution, and your name and the date will appear after the message. learnportuguese 21:36, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Delete it

This article should be deleted, it doesn't have anything to do with reality. Ninguém (talk) 01:34, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

I agreeJEMZ1995 (talk) 02:44, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Minho?

From the article:

The distinctive character of the mineiro accent is derived from the Portuguese then spoken in the region of Minho, northern Portugal, where most migrants came from.

Definitely unlikely.

Minhoto is a Northern Portuguese accent. It is characterised by the absence of opposition between /b/ and /v/ and the preservation of the /ei/ and /ou/ diphtongs. The mineiro accent preserves the opposition between /b/ and /v/ and loses the diphtongs, that become, respectively, /e/ and /o/. Conversely, mineiro accent diphtongates final vowels followed by /s/, and loses the opposition between /lh/ and the iod - two features that are not at all shared by the minhoto accent.

Unless some evidence is brought to support this, I'm going to remove it. Ninguém (talk) 01:35, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

It's a dialect and pronunciation

IBGE {see more:Instituto Brasileiro de Geografia e Estatística} considers the mineiro as a dialect. The pronunciation of mineiro have some variants. It depends on the region you are. The pronunciation of the mineiro vary. The most common (speaked about 75% of the mineiros) is shown in the article. Dfdc (talk) 00:50, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Occasional affrication of "d" before "e"?

I removed this characteristc. I am from East MG and now I leave in Belo Horizonte, but I have never heard a single person say [dʒiˈzɛhtu] instead of [deˈzɛɾtu]. That is way misplaced. Perharps someone heard this when was in the Caipira regions of MG, the ones close to São Paulo. Occasionaly saying dʒi instead of deˈ is common in most of Brazil, including MG, but one of the distintions between Mineiro and Caipira is that the second one use it in much more words. The best example I know is the word "depois", allways pronounced with dʒi in São Paulo, but never in this way in Mineiro accent. Perharps it needs better examples for the occasional affrication, with words such as "demais", wich, unlike "deserto", may have both pronounciations. However, I do believe most, perharps all, of the words in wich such a affrication can occur in Mineiro accent are pronounced the same way in virtually all of Brazil. 189.61.164.76 (talk) 06:13, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

By the way, I did a closer look on the characteristcs and most of the examples are too weird. O urubu doesn`t became u rubu, but u urubu. The contraction of two equal vowels is common in MG, but certainly not in this case. A way better example is Belo Horizonte, that is pronounced Belorizonte by most people here. And as for the transformation of inho in im, one of the most widespread characteristcs of this accent, the example is also bad. People don`t say pim instead of pinho, but they certainly do this in diminutives, such as copim instead of copinho. The whole section of characteriscs is a huge mass. 189.61.164.76 (talk) 06:27, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

The "urubu" example comes directly from the Portuguese Wikipedia: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialeto_mineiro Manolan1 (talk) 20:10, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Unique Mineiro usages

I would like to see something about (at least) uai as a general interjection and trem as thing or person. Manolan1 (talk) 20:12, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Spectrum

There's one "feature" of this accent that I felt could be mentioned. The map implies a hard switch to Baiano/Capira, but I think part of the charm is that it's not exactly like that. It merges with both as you go farther away from "canonical mineiro region" for lack of a better term. After all Mineiro Caipira is definitely a thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.79.54.25 (talk) 11:25, 10 August 2022 (UTC)