Talk:Michigan Wolverines/Archive 1

Archive 1

Image

An image here would be nice! Isopropyl 06:26, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Fight song

In addition to the acclaim for the helmets, John Phillip Sousa deemed the Michigan Fight Song "The Victors" to be "the best college march ever written."

• That information is already available at The Victors article. Pentawing^Talk 23:47, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Undefeated

The MGoBlue webpage stats have only 23 undefeated seasons, not 25.

"One of only two schools with a winning record against every Division 1-A conference, including independent schools such as Notre Dame" -- is this true? Just looking over this website (http://football.stassen.com/records/confres.html), I found Notre Dame, Texas, Tennessee and Nebraska could say that.Ltv100ltv100

FWIW, it appears that of those teams, only Michigan has a winning record against the Ivy League. Isopropyl 23:33, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, so does Notre Dame, for starters. Nebraska has never played the Ivy League per that site; but if you are going to use the criteria that a team needs to have a wining record versus every every conference in existance, then you'd have to discout Michigan since they've never played anyone from the the current Sun Belt 1-A conference. Regardless, the Ivy League is no longer a 1-A league and, in fact, I don't believe it was ever 1-A since the NCAA split Division 1 into 1-A and 1-AA.Ltv100

UM Final Fours

The article doesn't mention the Final Fours that were erased except during the Fab Four era part. Should they be added?

Yes, with the addition that they were later "vacated." Funnyhat 20:26, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

UM National Championships

According to the University[1], they have 11 national championships. That is out of 23 national championships that the CFBWarehouse[2] lists. While it is true that the CFBW only recgonizes 7 of those, the U does claims 11 for their own reasons. Terryfoster 13:35, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

There is no authoritative source for pre-1935 championships, which is when eight of UM's 11 claimed titles took place. CFBW is no more "official" than any other college football website. For seasons from 1936 onward, the school (like most others) uses the AP poll, and the coaches' poll (whenever it came out) as the official standards. Funnyhat 20:25, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

• • This is support for an ongoing discusson on the main football page for several years that are not currently cited on Wikipedia's NCAA page. On that page, four years are omitted. This is the support for the omitted years:

• • • http://www.ncaa.org/champadmin/ia_football_past_champs.html

• • • • 1923 California: Houlgate

Illinois: Boand, Football Research, Helms, National Championship Foundation, Parke Davis Michigan: Billingsley, National Championship Foundation

• • • • 1918 Michigan: Billingsley, National Championship Foundation

Pittsburgh: Helms, Houlgate, National Championship Foundation

• • • • 1904 Michigan: Billingsley, National Championship Foundation, Pennsylvania Helms, Houlgate, National Championship Foundation*, Parke Davis
      • 1903 Michigan: Billingsley, National Championship Foundation,

Princeton: Helms, Houlgate, National Championship Foundation*, Parke Davis

66.65.76.15 22:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Michigan BlockM.jpg

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A Fair Use rationale has been added and, following the advice on the bot's Talk page, I deleted the tag. JohnInDC 00:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

Michigan's loss today has brought out the vandals. I put a semi-protect tag on the article. No point in letting the vandals have fun. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pownage (talk • contribs) 03:13, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Multi-sport national championships

Michigan has won national championships in baseball, basketball, football and ice hockey. Minnesota has - according to its page here in any case - has won championships in those sports as well. That makes at least two schools to have championships in those four sports. Minnesota's basketball championships were retroactively awarded by (comparatively obscure) pollsters and aren't mentioned at the NCAA website. So maybe it's just Michigan with 4 championships. The immediate issue, and the subject of some recent edits, is whether this article should describe Michigan as the only school to win national championships in those four sports or whether it is a distinction shared with Minnesota. Rather than go back and forth in this article, or on this Talk page, about the adequacy or legitimacy of the Minnesota basketball championships (an argument which, by the way, calls into question some of Michigan's early football championships), it makes more sense to me just to take the assertion out altogether. The claim is unsourced, and is fraught with uncertainty and nuance in any case. JohnInDC (talk) 16:27, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Solid Maize Block M vs. split block M

Someone mentioned to me on my talk page that in 2010 Michigan has changed from using the split block M to the solid block M. Is there consensus to change the logo in articles and should it just be for post 2010 teams as well as general articles?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:01, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

In my opinion, I would base it off of what the Big Ten page became after the new logo came out. The new logo was used in the infobox, while the former one was placed somewhere down in the article with a caption citing it as the former logo. Considering that the change affected everything after 2009 seasons, I would propose that we change the 2010 seasons to the solid block M, along with the general articles. I would leave the split M in every article for a 2009-2010 season or earlier for the sake of accuracy, but I'm open to whatever you guys want. SCS100 (talk) 05:21, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

No strong opinion. The approach suggested by SCS100 seems reasonable. Cbl62 (talk) 16:29, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

No strong opinion here either but I do agree that it would be good to avoid the anachronism that would result from pasting a current logo into an older article. JohnInDC (talk) 16:35, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

If the new logo started being used in 2009, only put it in articles from 2009 onward, with the old ones in years before that. TomCat4680 (talk) 16:53, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

The logo was changed in 2010, so it wouldn't be very hard to replace it in the general articles and the 3 season articles that we have currently for 2010/2011. My only request is that someone besides me does the uploading of the new one, since I'm almost positive that I'll find a way to incur the wrath of someone over at Commons for not having the correct fair use tag applied. SCS100 (talk) 17:16, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Tag it the same way as the other logo.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:37, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Done. Hopefully I did it correctly, thanks for the help. SCS100 (talk) 04:06, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Should University of Michigan have a project

Looking at Category:WikiProject Universities, it seems like University of Michigan might want to start its own project. I would start it myself, but I am already running WP:CHICAGO, WP:FOUR and WP:WAWARD. Comment at Talk:University_of_Michigan#Should_University_of_Michigan_have_a_project.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:51, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/2012–13 Michigan Wolverines men's basketball team/archive1

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/2012–13 Michigan Wolverines men's basketball team/archive1 needs reviewers.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:49, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Michigan wolverines

this is the Michigan sports team

File:Michigan sports team

blakey

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.128.149.181 (talk) 01:09, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Women's basketball

No mention of womens' basketball?

Nroumel (talk) 03:19, 6 August 2012 (UTC)Nick Roumel

NCAA unofficial team titles

Consider the following, and tell me why Michigan's 7 "unofficial" NCAA swimming team titles are not included in the university's NCAA team totals, when for other sports, all such tabulations of a school's totals do include the unofficial team titles.

	Unofficial NCAA Championship Years				NCAA Division I Team Titles (as of May 29, 2015)
School	Swimming	Boxing	Wrestling	Track & Field	# Unofficial	# Official	Total titles credited
Catholic		1938			1	0	1
Idaho		1940, 1941			2	1	3
Illinois				1927	1	17	18
Indiana			1932		1	23	24
Iowa State			1933		1	12	13
Michigan	1927, 1928, 1931, 1932, 1934, 1935, 1936				7	36	36
Navy	1925, 1926				2	5	5
Northwestern	1924, 1929, 1930, 1933				4	8	8
Oklahoma State			1928, 1931, 1933		3	48	51
Penn State		1932			1	45	46
Stanford				1925	1	106	107
Syracuse		1936			1	12	13
USC				1926	1	99	100
Virginia		1938			1	21	22
Washington State		1937			1	1	2
West Virginia		1938			1	17	18
Wisconsin		1939, 1942, 1943, 1947			4	24	28
Number	13	12	5	3	33	475	495

Jeff in CA (talk) 07:06, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't know. Tell me why a title not awarded by the NCAA should be counted as a title awarded by the NCAA! There appears to be a discrepancy across these different pages but it is not at all clear to me from the table that the other pages are correct and this one is wrong. JohnInDC (talk) 08:07, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Per the NCAA, the totals shown here, and at Northwestern Wildcats, and at Navy Midshipmen, are correct. http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/champs_records_book/Overall.pdf . I didn't check all the others, but Catholic appears to match the NCAA, as does Iowa State. To the extent that some school's page doesn't match the source, I'd the think the Wikipedia article should be amended. Sometimes of course the NCAA is wrong, as it was with (e.g.) Michigan's football not-shutout streak, discussed here. But it gets tricky here, where if (for example) we conclude that the NCAA is in fact inconsistent, and that we should not ape the problem, and amend these three articles - suddenly now the Wikipedia article is reporting that Michigan has 43 national championships, not 36, and that it's in 8th place on that list (also maintained by NCAA) behind Penn State, rather than tied for 14th, behind (ahem) Wisconsin-Lacrosse. At that point we are literally re-writing the record books. It seems to me that, to the extent that the NCAA appears to be inconsistent, the best thing would be to drop a footnote here, and at Navy and Northwestern, indicating the issue and providing totals that, in the editors' view, reflect the same treatment of the same titles across all schools. And even that should follow discussion among editors to ensure that it's the NCAA that is mistaken, and not us somehow. JohnInDC (talk) 12:54, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Another thing I find incredulous is that, while the NCAA seemingly arbitrarily excludes from its count 13 titles for events that it did sponsor (reported in the popular press at the time without any qualification, I might add), it also includes 41 team titles for events that it did not sponsor, some of which happened before the NCAA was founded. I'm referring to men's golf — no other NCAA sport is treated this way. The NCAA did not sponsor the golf championship until 1939, when it took over for the long-established National Intercollegiate Golf Association. If the NCAA really wanted to do justice by including titles won before it started sponsoring its own championships, it should start with all the AIAW championships won by its women's teams. But as it does count pre-NCAA golf, then what about men's track and field, fencing and rifle? There were annual collegiate championships conducted in these sports from 1876 to 1920, 1894 to 1943, and 1924 to 1979, respectively, right up until when the NCAA started sponsoring its own championships in each of these sports. NCAA, thy name is inconsistency.

Jeff in CA (talk) 17:51, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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External links modified (January 2018)

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DYK help

Can anyone help me get Template:Did you know nominations/Jordan Poole and Template:Did you know nominations/Zavier Simpson approved at T:TDYK for April 3 to run during the 2018 NCAA Division I Men's Basketball Championship Game.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:52, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Flint and Dearborn

Shouldn't this be updated to include Dearborn NAIA and Flint Club sports since they've been under the Wolverine banner for a while now? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1702:2420:D6E0:AD75:A838:C4C3:20D3 (talk) 12:34, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Citing MGoBlue.com

When citing MGoBlue.com on Wikipedia, many frequent Michigan sports editors are in the habit of listing CBS Interactive as the publisher. I am not sold that this is the best way to cite the website. CBS Interactive is merely the platform and family of athletics websites that Michigan and many other schools use to host their content. I would say that the real "publisher" of articles hosted on MGoBlue.com is Michigan Wolverines Athletics, or maybe even the Board of Regents of the University of Michigan (per the copyright notice at the bottom of the page). At the very least, I think it's problematic that when citing MGoBlue.com in the way most editors do, it's not conveyed that this is the University's official athletics website.

I would be in favor of running a bot to change the publisher parameter to Michigan Wolverines Athletics of any cite template with an MGoBlue url. Ostealthy (talk) 22:35, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

Note that this article (Michigan Wolverines) does not name CBS Interactive, but it is found throughout Michigan Wolverines football and other football and basketball articles. Ostealthy (talk) 22:38, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

Wolverine

Any story to the nickname?

I’ll bet there is.

MBG02 (talk) 13:04, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Champions

It might make an interesting addition to the page to compile a tabulation of those Wolverines who have won national championships in the NFL, the NHL and the NBA. Bluedudemi (talk) 23:57, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

NCAA Trampoline

I was browsing a lot of articles updating a spreadsheet of mine and noticed that my numbers on NCAA titles was off from what Michigan shows here. I realize that my own spreadsheet isn't relevant to this, just giving some context. I realized pretty quickly the discrepancy was from the two trampoline titles.

I did a bit of research, and I'm legitimately unsure if these count as NCAA Titles. I know Michigan is claiming them, but the NCAA doesn't seem to.

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/champs_records_book/Overall.pdf Notably it IS definitely missing one of Michigan's Gymnastics championships in the overall count that definitely happened.

http://fs.ncaa.org.s3.amazonaws.com/Docs/stats/gymnastics_champs_records/NCmen.pdf This actually notes the trampoline championship being in some way separate... but still does not count it as a team title anywhere.

Based on Michigan's newspaper and the Iowa link in the aricle, I think we can piece through what happened here.

https://digital.bentley.umich.edu/midaily/search?date_filter=before&date_filter_options%5Bbegin%5D%5Bfld%5D=date_issued_yyyymmdd_ti&date_filter_options%5Bbegin%5D%5Bvalue%5D=19700801&date_issued_begin_dd=1&date_issued_begin_mm=8&date_issued_begin_yyyy=1970&q=trampoline&search_field=all_fields&sort=date_issued_dt+desc%2C+issue_no_t_sort+asc%2C+issue_sequence+asc

https://web.archive.org/web/20090205104955/http://iowagymnast.com/Forum_Items/IowasFirstChampionship.pdf

Trampoline was removed from the sport after 1969, obviously the Big 10 disagreed, and the NCAA seems to have allowed competition to occur without it counting towards the team score as well? The definitely awarded individual championships, and they clearly call it out as somehow different in 1969 and 1970. But they also do not include it in any count of team championships.

@Jeff in CA: might know more about this? Embowaf (talk) 04:05, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

The NCAA's official records are internally inconsistent. (This is true on a scale broader than just gymnastics, as can be seen in the table below regarding inconsistencies in other sports.) These three NCAA team gymnastics titles of concern here (1 all-apparatus and 2 trampoline) are documented in the NCAA's files, but, in an error of omission, were excluded from one table ("Championships Summary" - "Total Team Championships") that was meant to be a comprehensive listing. Despite this, we can certainly rely on the other official NCAA documents in this case.

For example, the National Collegiate Men's Gymnastics Championships document (http://fs.ncaa.org.s3.amazonaws.com/Docs/stats/gymnastics_champs_records/NCmen.pdf) under "History" - "Team Results" clearly indicates that these trampoline titles were team titles, not individual competitions. Also, the "Team Championships" table on the following page plainly states, "Note: Michigan also won two trampoline championships." Even though these two championships are not included in the all-apparatus title tabulation, they nevertheless are referred to as team titles.

In 1967, the NCAA Executive Committee voted to eliminate the trampoline event from the rest of the gymnastics competition. At first glance, one might think that there was a phase-out period ending in 1970, perhaps to allow trampoline athletes to complete their college careers. But this was not the case. In fact, the matter depended upon an annual determination being made by the NCAA on whether to continue the team and individual championship competitions. The May 1970 issue of The Modern Gymnast (https://issuu.com/usagymnastics/docs/1970_5may) contained an article about the 1970 NCAA Trampoline Championships, which included this:

"April 2-3, 1970 by Dick Criley

"Entries from [eleven] schools found their way to the second NCAA Trampoline Championships held at McGonigle Hall, Temple University. ... The preliminaries were used as the basis for the team title which was again captured by the University of Michigan, with the University of New Mexico as runner-up and Southwestern Louisiana State in third position. ... University of Michigan Coach, Newt Loken, indicated that he had already asked the NCAA to hold the 1971 Trampoline Championships at the University of Michigan in conjunction with the 1971 university division gymnastics championships. Don't throw away your trampoline beds sports fans, we'll be back next year. The only question remaining is whether trampoline will survive the annual questionnaire seeking its abolition."

According to the Iowa article on the 1969 NCAA championship (https://web.archive.org/web/20090205104955/http://iowagymnast.com/Forum_Items/IowasFirstChampionship.pdf), the trampolinists on Michigan's team were the best in the world. And Michigan and Iowa certainly considered their trampolinists to be teams, and they were scored as teams (e.g., "The Wolverine’s trampoline team, the strongest in the world, topped the Hawks by a score of 27.45 to 25.0.")

The Michigan Daily article from 1970 (https://digital.bentley.umich.edu/midaily/mdp.39015071754035/645) is also particularly cogent ("Wolverine gymnasts capture NCAA trampoline competition"), stating, "Michigan successfully defended its NCAA trampoline championship yesterday by edging the University of New Mexico, 26.85 - 26.4." The team title was contested first, and then the top individual finishers advanced to the individual finals the next day. The Michigan trampolinists "all moved into the individual finals."

NCAA inconsistencies in other sports with "unofficial" team championships:

	Unofficial NCAA Championship Years				NCAA Division I Team Titles (as of May 29, 2015)
School	Swimming	Boxing	Wrestling	Track & Field	# Unofficial	# Official	Total titles credited
Catholic		1938			1	0	1
Idaho		1940, 1941			2	1	3
Illinois				1927	1	17	18
Indiana			1932		1	23	24
Iowa State			1933		1	12	13
Michigan	1927, 1928, 1931, 1932, 1934, 1935, 1936				7	36	36
Navy	1925, 1926				2	5	5
Northwestern	1924, 1929, 1930, 1933				4	8	8
Oklahoma State			1928, 1931, 1933		3	48	51
Penn State		1932			1	45	46
Stanford				1925	1	106	107
Syracuse		1936			1	12	13
USC				1926	1	99	100
Virginia		1938			1	21	22
Washington State		1937			1	1	2
West Virginia		1938			1	17	18
Wisconsin		1939, 1942, 1943, 1947			4	24	28
Number	13	12	5	3	33	475	495

Jeff in CA (talk) 21:26, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Some news articles from April 20-21, 1969, regarding the first NCAA team trampoline championships:

https://www.newspapers.com/image/85064287/?match=1&terms=trampoline

https://www.newspapers.com/image/205657560/?match=1&terms=trampoline

https://www.newspapers.com/image/86785962/?match=1&terms=trampoline

https://www.newspapers.com/image/205380119/?match=1&terms=trampoline

Jeff in CA (talk) 07:09, 13 May 2024 (UTC)