Talk:Michael Zigomanis

Ethnicity

Modern Greece as a country is made up from different people, else than Hellenes, who contributed to her development (Arvanites, Slavs, Vlachs, Romaniotes, Gypsies and others) therefore they are GREEKS just for the fact they hail from GREECE. It does not necessary mean to be from HELLENIC race or stock.

Mike Zigomanis' family comes from Kastoria (Kostur) and they immigrated to Canada with Greek passport, and were labelled like Greeks by the Canadian authorities. As a matter of fact, they happen to be from Aegean Macedonian extraction, therefore they are Greeks by birth and Aegean Macedonians by descent.

The term "Aegean Macedonians" (Егејски Македонци) is the way Slavic speakers of the Macedonia region in Greece that in the past used to identify with Bulgaria and at present with the Republic of Makedonija call themselves.

No one is saying he is neither HELLENIC, nor a Slavophone Greek (which may induce the reader that he self-identifies with Greece). Just he is a Greek-Canadian with Aegean Macedonian descent. If his parents would have hailed from any place in today's Republic of Makedonija and with Macedonian passport he would certainly be a Macedonian-Canadian.

The defintion "Greek-Canadian with Aegean Macedonian descent" perfectly qualifies for his situation and is suitable for both groups. Both terms are perfectly compatible.

Let us leave aside useless staunch nationalist POVs, since they harm the scope and spirit of Wikipedia.-

Please feel free to comment this subject in my talk page.Periptero (talk) 00:14, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Okay, but the sentence I added said he was of Macedonian descent not nationality. We could explain that his family came from Greece, but were ethnic Macedonians. 'Greek-Canadian' implies that he is ethnically Greek. That article describes Greek-Canadians as Canadians of Greek origin, which is not correct in describing Zigomanis. Plus, ethnicity shouldn't be in the first sentence; it actually shouldn't be in the lead at all, but there's nowhere else in the article to put it. I also think the 'Canadian people of Macedonian descent' category should stay. --Local hero ^talk 19:09, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with LH on two points here: A) This should not be in the lead. And 2. As of now the sentence sounds quite ridiculous - he was either ethnic Macedonian or Greek. Or maybe half of each, if you know what I mean. --Laveol ^T 20:13, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I have to say both sources are far from reliable. One being written by an obviously ethnic Macedonian commentator and the other a book, written by an overwhelmingly Greek collective. I'd rather we removed both statements untill this is resolved. --Laveol ^T 20:15, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Being Greek-Canadian or Greek-American does not necesarily mean Hellenic ethnicity, just they come from Greece. The Greek origin (in geographical terms) is undeniable just for the fact that his parents come from Greece. But pointing out that he is of Aegean Macedonian descent clearly shows his ethnic background.

An Arvanite immigrating to America, would be labelled as "Greek-American", but if you want to highlight his non-hellenic background you may add "from Arvanitic descent" and make it clear.

Personally I do not think it should be removed because it shows a great sence of maturity to be able to share both positions.

Regarding sources, always books (although biased or subjective) are far more reliable that websites. Anyway, the Macedonian webiste does not seem to be contested so I suggest I leave the paragraph as it is, and if conflicts arise (hope not) we drop the whole subject.Periptero (talk) 01:14, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

I think we should just add a sentence to the end of the paragraph saying: "Zigomanis' ethnic Macedonian parents immigrated to Canada from Greece." or something like that. --Local hero ^talk 19:08, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

I have two or three sources but they are from Greek websites. I will seek for book / newspaper articles (i.e. "official" statements) so as not to be biased. Official NHL and Sports journal publicactions tend to stick Mike with Greece (I think that just from the fact of his ancestors registration in Immigrations). Amyway, the exact term is "Aegean Macedonian" , since it represents the ethnic or ethnic affiliated people within Greece. "Ethnic" Macedonians from Greece call themselves "Aegean Macedonians".Periptero (talk) 23:10, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but Aegean Macedonians redirects to a different article. So, we could write 'Aegean Macedonians' but link to 'Macedonians (ethnic group)' ([[Macedonians (ethnic group)#Greece|Aegean Macedonians]]). --Local hero ^talk 01:59, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Redirection is correct because Zigomanis parents are in fact "Slavic-speakers of Greek Macedonia" for sure, as many people in Kastoria still do today. Unfortunately that article became a little politized so it needs some neutral ammendments, but it clearly shows that Slavic speakers in the Macedonian region of Greece have either a clear Hellenic conscience (Slavophone Greeks) or rather a local identity (Aegean Macedonians). Among these there are also others who indentify themselves as totaly kin to their neighbours in The Republic of Macedonia and therefore consider themselves as "ethnic Macedonians" (as you name them) up to the point of applying to Macedonian (Skopjian) citizenship and changing their helenized family names (this notably happened in the Australian and Canadian diaspora after the installment of the FYROM in 1991). It doesn't seem to be the case of people like Zigomanis and others who were economic benefactors and contributors to both the Greek Orthodox Church and the Greek Community in Canada. It looks to me that Zigomanis "local" Macedonian identity is clear and present but redirection should be kept within the Slavic Speakers in Greece but with the label "Aegean Macedonian", until we find a reliable personal statement from Zigomanis himself or a biography printed. Greece officially considers every Slavic speaker as a Slavophone Greek (therefore Hellenic but with Slavic tongue) and Macedonia (Skopje) officially claims that every person who speak Slavic (or "Macedonian", previously called "Bulgarian") in Greece are a Slavomacedonian minority ("ethnic" Macedonians). I think we should keep this article outside politics, therefore the term Aegean Macedonian seems to be the right one, without taking positions with neither of both sides.Periptero (talk) 11:39, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Okay then, I'll add: "Zigomanis was born to Aegean Macedonian parents who immigrated to Canada from Greece." to the end of the lead. Hopefully, this will solve everything. Regards. --Local hero ^talk 15:46, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

"therefore the term Aegean Macedonian seems to be the right one, without taking positions with neither of both sides" - utter nonsense. with a wording like that, you take the FYROM side quite obviously (aside from whatever this guy is). a Greek equivalent would be calling a guy from South Albania a "North Epirote" and claiming you aren't taking the Greek side! clearly, you also know little (?) about Greece since you consider "Aegean Macedonians" and Arvanites together. no, Greek-American means someone who is American nationally but of "Greek ancestry" (i.e. his ancestors identified as Greeks) which excludes Skopjans (or Slav Macedonians or whatever you prefer) but includes Slavic-speaking Greeks and Arvanites 87.202.45.156 (talk) 00:48, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Explanations

I use the term FYROM in the Talk Page (never in the text) because it is up to now, the official name of the newly born state from the previous Socialist Republic of Makedonija within Jugoslavija. But of course, I do take sides in politics , but instead not in Wikipedia's articles:

a) I may consider Macedonia as one, only and Greek. I may also consider Southern Albania as Northern Epirus as well. I even may consider that the FYROM should be named "Vardarska" and not "Macedonia" -although I do accept the right of the "Slavomacedonian" minority in Northern Greece to be recognized as such-; but my personal considerations are irrelevant in a sportman's article and I do not intend to carry them in it.

b) I just think the term Aegean Macedonian is the most suitable (and neutral) one. In the other hand, I never stated that Aegean Macedonians and Arvanites are the same thing or the same case ! (Please, just read first !) When I used the example of "... from Arvanitic heritage ..." I was only trying to imply an "ethnic" background else than Hellenic (I am pointing a differenece between "Hellenic" and "Greek"), I could have used the example "Gypsy", "Aromanian" or other ...

c) As per the term "Greek-American", it is defined as "Americans of Greek descent". Since Zigomanis parents are labelled as Greeks (their Greek passport certifies so) and they state nothing against, it perfectly qualifies. But a source from an article about another hockey player claims that Zigomanis is of "Macedonian" extraction (never a personal declaration from Mike himself), so showing good faith with other users we tried to reach the best way to point it out, therefore we arrived to the sui generis "...a Canadian professional ice hockey centre of Greek descent, born to Aegean Macedonian parents..."

Please, I also request everyone not to make any judgements about my "connaisance" of Greece or the Greeks, without knowing nothing about myself. I invite all those who are interested to go to my personal / talk page first, then make a conclusion. If someone has something to provide to me that may be useful, go ahead then. Else, these types of discussions are useless since it is not a forum.Periptero (talk) 11:34, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

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