Talk:Mel Gibson/Archive 5

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Gibson's religion

The is no religion called "Traditionalist Catholic". Gibson was baptised and raised in the Roman Catholic faith. He went to a Roman Catholic School. He was married in a Roman Catholic church by a Roman Catholic priest. Furthermore, there is no denomination within the Roman Catholic church called "Traditionalist Catholic". He may have some conservative views - he may even have views which are not compatible with being Catholic. This does not detract from the idea of his stated religion being Roman Catholic. Editors who have written "Traditionalist Catholic" have made up a religion. This is an encyclopedia - let's stick to the facts. I note that on the page called "Traditionalist Catholic" there is no agreement about what it means. Other breakaway sects, such as the Society of St. Pius X have no status in the Roman Catholic church, ie they ain't Catholics. Francis Hannaway 11:52, 2 June 2012 (UTC) Francis Hannaway (talk)

While I respect your opinion and agree that there is no "religion" called "traditionalist Catholic", there is a recognized religious "movement" which stands distinctively apart from Catholicism/Roman Catholicism. He has labeled himself "traditionalist Catholic" and reliable sources have labeled him "traditionalist Catholic", so I see no reason why we should not offer that same label here. In my opinion, the current way we state these facts (i.e. by linking to traditionalist Catholicism) is ostensibly the same as if we were to state it in a way that I think you would agree with (i.e. by saying "traditionalist Catholicism" and avoiding a link to traditionalist Catholicism). My point is, if we have the article on traditionalist Catholicism, it is a recognized and distinct religious group within Catholicism (which is all "denomination" means), Gibson has labeled himself as part of this group, and reliable sources have labeled Gibson as part of this group; why can we not use this label? Nobody is claiming traditionalist Catholicism is a separate religion, all its own; it is merely a more precise label to use when describing someone like Gibson, similar to how we would label someone as Presbyterian or Lutheran.  Chickenmonkey  22:54, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your kind reply. I stand by my original statement that you're either Catholic or you're not. It doesn't reflect favourably on the Catholic Church when there are some people purporting to be part of the church when in fact their beliefs are way off the mark. The Catholic Church is a broad church, but there are limits to what is accepted. An example of one of Mel Gibson's beliefs is that the present Pope is an imposter! The Wiki article on Traditionalist catholics has a tag on it saying that its factual accuracy is disputed. The reason I'm making a point about this is that it could give the impression that groups with beliefs that are outside the doctrine of the church are somehow accepted - when they most clearly are not. However - always nice to have a 'however' - I've only started this Talk section to draw attention to the controversial nature of the 'so-called' traditionalist catholics, and to see if it would draw other comments. It doesn't seem to be important to other editors of the Mel Gibson page (obviously you're already on the case). Best wishes - Francis Hannaway (talk) Francis Hannaway 08:07, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

I am glad we can be cordial in our disagreement; I get so tired of seeing editors fight and having to deal with those editors. Frankly, I am not a religious person, myself, though, as a fellow Wikipedian, I can understand your desire to have the article on traditionalist Catholicism be as accurate as possible (whether that means that article would represent "traditionalist Catholicism" as the unaccepted viewpoint you are saying it is or not, I don't know; I am wholly a nontheist person, and I do not really have much interest in researching enough to fix that article, but I encourage you to do so, if that is something you want to do). For this article, however, I believe we both want it to be accurate, as well. As far as I can tell, traditionalist Catholicism is an accepted religious movement within Catholicism. That is not to say other Catholics necessarily accept them, but just that it is an accepted term that is used to categorize that particular group of people that hold certain religious views. In this capacity, I would still say that labeling Gibson as "traditionalist Catholic" is accurate, as it is also reliably sourced. If someone more knowledgeable on the subject would like to correct me, I am certainly open to that.  Chickenmonkey  09:18, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Mel Gibson is a Roman Catholic. I would consider myself a "Traditionalist Catholic" and I don't hold ANY beliefs that are contrary to the Magisterium of the Church. To suggest that someone who is a "Traditionalist Catholic" is in some way more or less of a Catholic than someone who is a "Liberal Catholic" is just absurd. There is no such denomination as "Traditional Catholicism" Sue De Nimes (talk) 21:54, 8 July 2012 (UTC) I wanted to add something to this. There has been an allegation made above that Mel Gibson believes the current Pope to be an imposter. I assume the allegation being made is that Mel Gibson is a sedevecantist. I don't believe there is any source anywhere to substantiate this. He MAY be a sedevecantist but without a source we should not assume this. There has also been talk about members of traditionalist groups not being Catholic. This is a grey area. There are groups such as the FSSP who are traditionalist and in full communion with Rome. These groups enjoy full canonical recognition and have as much standing as any other group. You then have groups such as the Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer who while in full communion with Rome have not been granted full canonical status (yet). We also have the SSPX. The SSPX is not currently in full standing with Rome. What is important to note though is that the only members of the SSPX who were ever excommunicated were the four bishops. These excommunications have since been lifted meaning that all members of the SSPX are Catholics in good standing. The current status though is that priests of the SSPX do not have approval to exercise a ministry. The result of that is that should a Catholic attend Mass with the SSPX they do not fulfill any obligation should it be celebrated on a Sunday or other holy day. The mass itself is still a valid mass. The SSPX are not sedevecantists. Sue De Nimes (talk) 11:41, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

I honestly do not understand how anyone can say Traditionalist Catholicism is not a denomination of Catholicism; a "denomination" is merely a group of people recognized under a single name. "Traditionalist Catholics" are a group of people recognized under a single name. You may consider yourself a Traditionalist Catholic, but if your beliefs are not consistent with those of the recognized group, then you are not a "Traditionalist Catholic", as it pertains to that denomination. Frankly, I do not care enough to continue discussing religion, so I will just leave it at that.  Chickenmonkey  06:32, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand what a "Traditionalist Catholic" is. Speaking from my own position I don't hold any beliefs different from those put forward by the Church. Many "Traditional Catholics" would argue that they are more consistent with the teachings of the Church than non "Traditional Catholics". If you want to define "Traditional Catholicism" as a denomination then one needs to do two things. (1) Define what it is they actually believe (2) Define how they differ from the official position of the Church. The fact remains Traditional Catholicism is NOT a denomination any more than "Wishy Washy Catholicism" might be. If a Traditional Catholic is in full communion with Rome then they are Roman Catholic. Sue De Nimes (talk) 09:58, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

I do not mean to disrespect your personal position, but your personal position does not matter, in terms of what is or is not "Traditionalist Catholicism". From the Traditionalist Catholic article, "Traditionalist Catholics are distinct from other groups of Catholics who have a broadly 'traditional' or conservative outlook, since the latter tend to accept in general terms the legitimacy of the changes associated with the Second Vatican Council." That is the basis of my understanding of this issue, and that is what informs my opinion that "Traditionalist Catholicism" is a recognized denomination within Catholicism, which differs enough from Catholicism as to warrant a separate designation.  Chickenmonkey  10:19, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

First of all, you can't use Wikipedia as a source to justify your position. If you want to claim that "Traditional Catholics" are a denomination separate from Roman Catholicism then please provide a source to back this up. I don't care what your understanding of the issue is - it really doesn't matter. What does matter are facts. If it is as you claim a recognised denomination then I assume you will be able to provide a link to something from it's governing body showing what it believes in. Sue De Nimes (talk) 23:15, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

I am not using Wikipedia as a source to justify my position; I am, however, pointing you to an article here on Wikipedia that has plenty of sources like this one. I do not feel like I should have to "prove" Traditionalist Catholicism exists, on this discussion page. If you feel like the Wikipedia article on Traditionalist Catholicism should not exist, there are avenues that you may pursue.  Chickenmonkey  23:37, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

I am not asking you to prove "Traditional Catholicism" exists. I haven't questioned that at any point. What I am asking you to prove is that it is a separate denomination rather than a catch all descriptive term encompassing multiple groups with different standpoints. To suggest that a group such as a the FSSP are part of a denomination separate from the Roman Catholic Church alongside a group such as the SSPV is absurd. The FSSP are a Priestly Fraternity with full canonical recognition. They don't teach anything that isn't fully approved by Rome. The SSPV on the other hand are sedevacantists and as such believe the Pope to be an antipope. They are also excommunicated which highlights the error in trying to lump them together. What I have asked you to prove is that "Traditional Catholicim" is a separate and recognised denomination of the Roman Catholic Church. You haven't don't anything to substantiate the assertion you are trying to make. Sue De Nimes (talk) 08:31, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Main picture

Is there another photo floating around at all? The current one isn't very good and looks odd. Depor23 (talk) 16:03, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Hutton/Mel, Sydney suburb

Mel and family moved to Mt Kuring-gai north of Hornsby in 1968. I think this was their first Australian address. how do I know? I was in the same catholic youth organisation and school at the time (St Patrick's Asquith/St Leos Wahroonga) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.106.53.50 (talk) 09:12, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Mother Irish or Australian?

The current text says Gibson's mother was born in Co. Longford, Ireland but then also refers to the family moving to his "mother's native Australia." I think that should be his paternal grandmother's native Australia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.140.38 (talk) 14:59, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Picture outdated

The current picture of Mel is 23 years old. He looks a lot different today. 24.15.64.123 (talk) 04:17, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I brought this up before: no one watching this page seems to care. We have a more recent image that could be cropped, but people seem to like this ancient image better. Good luck getting a response on this one. Doc talk 04:29, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I have added the picture of Gibson at the 2011 Cannes Film Festival back to the article. I could see no reason given why it was removed in July 2012, and the picture it was replaced with was a duplicate already in the article; its use in the infobox did not make sense in any way.  Chickenmonkey  04:47, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Chickenmonkey! Doc talk 05:22, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

No problem, Doc! After looking again, I see that the editor who removed the Cannes photo in July created a talk page section above wherein they describe the Cannes photo as "odd". That would seem to have been all that came of that discussion in July. Perhaps another picture will become available and will be satisfactory to everyone; until then, the Cannes photo would seem to work fine.  Chickenmonkey  05:41, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, mate. The problem with wiki is that you make a comment in the talk page and nobody responds. Also, I wouldn't call the section I created a 'discussion' because it was only me that left a comment. The photo you've settled on really is a terrible photo (just looks bad - bad quality, etc.). Having it as the main photo for the article is an insult to wikipedia. While the previous photo is out of date, it's still a hell of a lot better than the current one you monkeys have settled on. Being out of date doesn't disqualify a photo from being the main one (even if the person is still alive). Look at Tom Selleck's article! I can't be the only blind person here... Depor23 (talk) 03:10, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Incomplete filmography

There is no mention of the movie Ransom (1996 film). It is funny since there is a wiki page for the movie, just no mention of it in Mel Gibson's main page. I cannot edit, so can someone please fix this? Bergie24b (talk) 00:01, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

It is mentioned here: Mel_Gibson#Hollywood. There can't be a paragraph for every movie he's ever been in. (And the filmography is complete.) --Musdan77 (talk) 02:19, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Misspelling

wouuld should be would

Irish American

IRISH AMERICAN ?

HES AMERICAN. He grew up in Oz but went back to the US. Hes not Irish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by VinDibs (talk • contribs) 00:18, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

He holds Irish citizenship in addition to US citizenship. I'd say that makes him an Irish-American by any reasonably standard. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.23.58.32 (talk) 03:46, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

There is some confusion here. "Oz" is a fantasy land so he certainly didn't grew there. As to Irish-American, those designations aren't used for people who have citizenship in Ireland and the U.S.A., they are used for people who have parents of that heritage. Think about the African-Americans, none of them has a passport from a country called Africa.

Aisteco (talk) 00:11, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

That's why it's spelled African American (without a hyphen!!!) with African being an adjective to American further specifying which kind of American one is describing. Similarly American people who have Irish heritage are described as Irish American (again without hyphen) and people who have both Irish and American citizenship are described as Irish-American (with a hyphen). This is all basic grammar, really. Tvx1 (talk) 19:27, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Australian?

The first sentence of the lead decribes him as Australian and American, but the article later says he has two citizenships, American and Irish. If he merely lived in Australia, he isn't Australian. Jim Michael (talk) 21:48, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Holy Cow!

I see that everything about Holy Family and A P Reilly has been scrubbed clean from Gibson’s Wikipedia page. I’m surprised the ever vigilant editors and contributors have allowed that. 132.3.65.80 (talk) 16:19, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Can you link to a version that has the removed information? Also, are you the author of this article? You directly quote the last part of it ("By the way, everything about Holy Family and A P Reilly has been scrubbed clean from Gibson’s Wikipedia page. I’m surprised the ever vigilant editors and contributors have allowed that."). Mjworthey (talk) 16:58, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 April 2014

Matheus6666 (talk) 20:32, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(t • e • c)} 21:23, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Dead Links

The link from the phrase "Gay Alliance has Gibson's 'Braveheart' in its sights" in note 59 is dead. A working link is:

http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/gossip/gay-alliance-gibson-braveheart-sights-article-1.682785

and someone might usefully wish to replace this one with the dead one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.254.158.92 (talk) 13:41, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 August 2014

Mel Colm-Cille Gerard Gibson AO (born January 3, 1956) is an American actor, film director, producer and screenwriter. He is most well known as an action hero, for roles such as Martin Riggs in the Lethal Weapon film series and Max Rockatansky in the first three Max Max films. Please change X to D (i.e Mad Max) Pranay Nayak.R.V (talk) 18:34, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

 Done Thanks for spotting that - Arjayay (talk) 19:14, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Early Childhood around Mt Kuring-gai, Sydney, Australia

See this link: http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/newslocal/the-hills/nostalgic-facebook-group-you-grew-up-around-hornsby-if-you-remember-stirs-up-memories-of-suburbs-past/story-fngr8i1f-1226816728074 - might be worth double checking his early life stories. Poor kid - if he went to Asquith Boys' - what a shithole that school was. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:AF8:1:1500:0:0:0:4239 (talk) 00:17, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 April 2015

Amberwebster (talk) 06:27, 14 April 2015 (UTC) In a Relationship with Amber Webster dating since November 2014

 Not done Seriously? No reliable citation given. -- haminoon (talk) 07:56, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 July 2015

Talleric, Brian. "Apocalypto Review". UGO.com. Retrieved July 20, 2010.[dead link] 

Change dead link to: http://www.metacritic.com/movie/apocalypto Headeulogy (talk) 21:39, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Partly done: Retargeted the link to the archived version of the review on WayBack Machine. Altamel (talk) 23:34, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Gibson's drunken antisemitic comments to a woman police offer

no mention of Gibson's drunken antisemitic comments to a woman police offer in the controversy section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:6:5600:5AC:8C83:2820:3FFC:4A14 (talk) 17:38, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

It's under personal life, included as part of the section on his alcohol and legal issues. I agree that it probably makes more sense to have it in the controversy section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.24.247.59 (talk) 04:44, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Article currently exaggerates the racial element in his comments, saying, "Gibson climaxed with the words, [...]" This is not true. The TMZ article describes things he said after, asking a sergeant "What the f*** do you think you're doing?" and a female sergeant "What do you think you're looking at, sugar tits?" This Wikipedia article also says he 'further apologized for his "despicable" behavior', when to be accurate he said that what he said was despicable, not his actions (which he described as "belligerent"). This is also in the context of the 2006 Lebanon War, which had started 2 weeks before, and in which 44 Israeli civilians, and 900 Lebanese civilians, were killed. 2601:600:8500:5B1:8C3A:2804:2245:756C (talk) 18:35, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

He said that in a drunken stupor. Check his interview with Diane Sawyer. He does apologize. 74.90.110.7 (talk) 19:54, 29 March 2016 (UTC)