Talk:Mass killings under communist regimes/Archive 25

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No estimates in lede

In the Criticisms of communist party rule article the first sentence in the "Loss of life" section simply places the death toll in the "tens of millions." Something similar could be a possible solution for the lede as it seems there will be a constant edit war over definitive estimates (i.e. 21-70 million). So perhaps something like this could be a solution: "Scholars believe that millions, perhaps tens of millions, lost their lives in various episodes of mass killing." Surely few would dispute that at the very least millions were killed by Communist regimes collectively, no? I can think of three citations for this already, Valentino (his range is in the tens of millions), Rosefielde (communism's internal contradictions "caused to be killed" approximately 60 million people), and Naimark ("...Stalinist Russia, Mao's China, and Pol Pot's Cambodia - where millions of these country's own citizens were killed in campaigns of mass murder..." 2010, p. 5) I'm sure others could be used. Actual estimates could be placed in the appropriate sub-sections that pertain to individual episodes of mass killing (i.e. red terror, great purges, land reform, etc). I'm not sure if something like this has been suggested before, and don't feel like reading over previous discussions. Thoughts on this? (italics mine of course)--C.J. Griffin (talk) 14:28, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

How about "a very large number" which "millions" certainly is, at the least? I trust no editor seriously disputes that such killings existed, to be sure. Collect (talk) 14:32, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

That might be too vague. A "very large number" could also be tens or hundreds of thousands, which surely isn't adequate. But if other editors feel this is a solution then I won't object.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 14:43, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Using Valentino's numbers in the lede seems pretty POV, seeing as his numbers have been criticized as always being on the high-end of estimates. Something as suggested in this thread seems like the appropriate approach, since the variation between estimates requires a decent amount of verbiage to convey the (scant) literature accurately. BigK HeX (talk) 15:08, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I'd agree with the general argument, but "mass killings" is still problematic, in that by far the largest proportion of the deaths have been attributed to the effects of famine, and though there are certainly grounds to see this as deliberate in several cases (particularly the largest ones), or at least as the result of criminal negligence on an obscene scale, it doesn't really fit in with what most people are likely to understand "mass killing" as indicating. Can we not use the same phrase as in the Criticisms of communist party rule article: replace 'killings' with 'loss of life'. This will require a substantial rewrite of the lede, to indicate the great degree to which such loss of life was due to policy (this is indisputable), but it may be a solution. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:24, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

It should be written explicitly that significant portions of the deaths are attributed to famines, plague, estimates on children that "should have been" conceived and born, and whatever else people are tossing into these estimates. There used to be a sentence like this in the lede. If it's not there, it should be replaced ASAP, in my opinion.

Something like "some estimates of mass killings include not only murders or executions but also lives lost due to war, famine and disease. There are scholars who believe that government policies and mistakes in management contributed to calamities, and, based on that conclusion add a considerable part of these deaths to the death tolls under their study. The validity of such an approach in calamities, such as those in Russia, China, and elsewhere has been questioned by others." BigK HeX (talk) 15:42, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I think that it would be better as "some estimates of mass killings include not only murders or executions but...". AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:49, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I'd agree that is better. Going to edit my suggested sentence above. Thanks. BigK HeX (talk) 15:55, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I think the 100 million should be in the lead, because it is the number chosen by the scholars who write about the subject. TFD (talk) 16:02, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

You are trying to combine several different things.

1. Most victims of the Kampuchean regime (2+ million) were murdered, even those who died from starvation, because the scholars (Fein) draw a parallelism between Kampuchean genocide and Warsaw ghetto.
2. More than a million of victims of Great purge were either executed or were killed in the Gulag camps.
3. A land reform in China lead to intentional killing (murder, execution) of large number of peasants; "Cultural revolution" also lead to mass killing of real or perceived political opponents.
   All these deaths are indisputable and fit the commonsensual "mass killing" criteria. Therefore, it is correct to write that "scholars believe that millions lost their lives in various episodes of mass killing." With regard to "perhaps tens of millions", we can include that only if some explanations are added about "deprivation mass killings" (famine, diseased, deportation deaths, camp mortality). We can write, for instance, that since some scholars consider these events as mass killings, the estimates of a total death toll amounts tens of millions.
   I don't think we need to provide concrete numbers, because that creates a false visibility of accuracy. In actuality some figures used in such compilations (e.g. Rummel's data) were obtained during Cold War era and were just rough estimates (that have not been confirmed by recent studies).
   In any event, I believe it is incorrect to combine indisputable cases of mass killings (listed above) with other events that are considered as mass killings by only some scholars.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:51, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I think we must start with Furet-Courtois, because they developed the theory that these events are connected. Courtois wrote, "Every Communist country or Party has its own specific history, and its own particular regional and local variations, but a linkage can always be traced to the pattern elaborated in Moscow in 1917. This linkage forms a sort of genetic code of Communism" (Black Book, p. 754). That should be in the lead. TFD (talk) 17:49, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

because they developed the theory that these events are connected.

What do you mean by this? A50000 (talk) 20:16, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I mean that they developed the theory that these events are connected. We should see the subject "Jewish Bolshevism" as a model. Many leading Communists were Jewish, which has fueled right-wing conspiracy theories ever since. But while the article is poor, it does not attempt to push the view that there is a connection between the two. TFD (talk) 21:09, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

They are obviously connected since they all happended under communist regimes. A50000 (talk) 21:19, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

That is an irrational argument. Even so, we need to reference it, not engage in synthesis. TFD (talk) 21:57, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

How did you come to the conclusion that that was supposed to be an argument? A50000 (talk) 22:19, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Whatever you want to call your reasoning process that connects events, this is not the place to present it. TFD (talk) 22:27, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

So are saying that not all mass killings that happened under communist regimes happened under communist regimes? A50000 (talk) 14:48, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Note to TFD: while I won't edit the article, because of the threat of the major editors to unite to have me banned from Wikipedia if I do, I do follow it. You're in danger of losing your sense of humor. A50000's comment was obviously a joke. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:03, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

So how about something like this for the lede:

The killing of a large numbers of non-combatants has occurred in certain states, including some that have declared adherence to some form of Communist doctrine. The highest death tolls that have been documented in communist states occurred in the Soviet Union under Stalin, in the People's Republic of China under Mao, and in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge. It is believed that millions, perhaps tens of millions, lost their lives in various episodes of mass killing by these regimes. There have also been killings on a smaller scale in North Korea, Vietnam, and some Eastern European and African countries. Some estimates of mass killings include not only murders or executions but also lives lost due to war, famine and disease. There are scholars who believe that government policies and mistakes in management contributed to calamities, and, based on that conclusion add a considerable part of these deaths to the death tolls under their study. The validity of such an approach in calamities, such as those in Russia, China, and elsewhere has been questioned by others. (Insert citations where necessary)

It seems to me this would revolve some of the issues being discussed here, and will hopefully prevent future edit wars.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 13:58, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

It's good to see specific wording discussed here but I have to disagree with much of it. 1st, like 99+% of all Wikipedia articles, we should put the name of the article in the first sentence. 2nd, "Mass killings" is a very quantitative subject - numbers should be in the lede, we can't hide from the numbers and they summarize much of what is important about the article. Yes, there are different estimates, but despite the chaotic conditions during the killings, it seems that the differences are not so much due to counting the dead, but how the dead are classified. Thus there should be a range of numbers presented and a summary of the differences in classification. I'll get back with a carefully considered lede sometime during or just after the holidays, but for now I'll suggest getting rid of that horrible 1st sentence (I read it as : Other stuff happened and something similar may have been done by people who called themselves Communists); it is a complete cop-out. Also we should look at the lede in Holocaust and see how they do it. Notice the total numbers in their 1st sentence, reinforced in the 2nd.

So, a first try for a lede:

Mass killings under Communist regimes occurred during the twentieth century with the number of victims estimated between ?? million and 100 million.[with sources for high and low estimates] The highest death tolls that have been documented in communist states occurred in the Soviet Union under Stalin, in the People's Republic of China under Mao, and in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge. Estimates of the number of killings vary widely: for these three countries ranging from 21 million to 70 million.[nb 1] There have also been killings on a smaller scale in North Korea, Vietnam, and some Eastern European and African countries.

Higher estimates of the killings include deaths during civil wars, mass elimination of political opponents, mass terror campaigns, famines and land reforms. Lower estimates exclude deaths, for example, from famines because government policy errors and management mistakes may have caused more deaths than intentional killings.

In either case, some of the killings may fit a definition of mass murder, democide, politicide, "classicide", "crimes against humanity", or loosely defined genocide.

Smallbones (talk) 15:01, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

It is poor writing style to say "mass killings occurred". We should use the verb "to kill", which takes a subject and an object. We should not mention that mass killings occurred elsewhere, unless we are making a comparison. Also, we need to explain who draws a connection between mass killings in various states that happened to be Communist, why they believed they were connected, and the degree of acceptance their theories have received. TFD (talk) 15:52, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Since you haven´t responded above I take it as an admission that you are wrong. A50000 (talk) 18:48, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

This talk page is for discussing the improvement of the article not for general debate. If you want to debate, I suggest you go somewhere else. If you wish to improve the article then you should make suggestions for how that may be done. Also, could you please phrase your comments in a more collegial tone. TFD (talk) 19:06, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Isn´t repeating an argument, after it has been refuted many times, considered to be disruptive? A50000 (talk) 19:36, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Could you please state your comments clearly. TFD (talk) 19:45, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Why don´t you just answer my question? A50000 (talk) 22:25, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Because it is a loaded question that contributes nothing to the discussion, and borders on a personal attack. TFD (talk) 16:54, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

How is it a loaded question? A50000 (talk) 17:32, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Smallbones. According to WP:BOLDTITLE, the article's subject should be stated as early as possible in the first sentence, and placed in boldface. As far as numbers are concerned, I also agree that a range should be included, since the numbers is one of the more important aspects covered in the body, per WP:MOSBEGIN. Taking onboard TFD's concerns, how about:

Mass killings under Communist regimes during the twentieth century resulted the estimated deaths of between ?? million and 100 million people.[with sources for high and low estimates] The highest death tolls that have been documented in communist states occurred in the Soviet Union under Stalin, in the People's Republic of China under Mao, and in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge. Estimates of the number of killings vary widely: for these three countries ranging from 21 million to 70 million.[nb 1] There have also been killings on a smaller scale in North Korea, Vietnam, and some Eastern European and African countries.

Higher estimates of the killings include deaths during civil wars, mass elimination of political opponents, mass terror campaigns, famines and land reforms. Lower estimates exclude deaths, for example, from famines because government policy errors and management mistakes may have caused more deaths than intentional killings.

In either case, some of the killings may fit a definition of mass murder, democide, politicide, "classicide", "crimes against humanity", or loosely defined genocide.

--Martin (talk) 19:25, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

There is still an implicit POV in this writing which can only be removed by explaining what connection scholars have made between Communist regimes and mass killings, who those scholars were and the degree of acceptance their theories have received. We have for example a reliable source, provided by User:C.J. Griffin, that says, Murdersous cleansing is modern, because it is the dark side of democracy.[1] We could use this as a source for an article "Mass killings under democratic regimes". If we were to properly explain the author's argument and the degree of acceptance it has received it would be a neutral article. But if we used it to push a view that democracy leads to mass killings, listing atrocities committed by democracies, it would fail neutrality. TFD (talk) 18:48, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

The article doesn´t make any connection. A50000 (talk) 19:09, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

1. Had the article made no connection between Communism and mass killing, I would see no reason for this article to exist, because in that case it would combine unconnected events (each of which already has its own article). Therefore, unless you propose to delete this article, please stick with the assumption that article does make strong connection between Communism and mass killings.
2. As I already wrote many times, any figures in the lede are misleading, and, therefore unacceptable: these figures show the number of total excess deaths under Communist regimes, not only the victims of mass killings. We should either remove all figures from the lede, or write explicitly in the lede that the article is based primarily on the concept of "deprivation mass killing" developed by Valentino. I personally am comfortable with both options.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:53, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Reliable sources talk about mass killings under communist regimes. A50000 (talk) 16:51, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Reliable sources state that some of these deaths were a result of mass killings. Some (few) reliable sources state all these deaths were the results of mass killing. As I already wrote, I see no problem with writing the article based on these (latter) sources, however, in that case the reservation that it is an opinion of only a part of scholars should be added into the lede (and, accordingly, their definition of mass killing, which differs from how people usually understand this term, should be provided).--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:48, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

A50000, you must learn to distinguish between facts and opinions mentioned in reliable sources. The number of deaths is an opinion and cannot be reported as a fact. On the other hand, that scholars have provided a range of estimates and some are more credible than others is a fact, and may be reported as such. TFD (talk) 20:23, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Then the article violates NOT#IINFO and should be deleted. TFD (talk) 20:08, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

WE NEED TO AGREE ON A DEFINITION OF 'KILLING'

Really, we need to be clear as to what constitutes 'mass killing'. Obviously we do not mean the execution of people who were guilty of the crimes they committed (no matter how minor), but those people who were innocent, and were killed, (shot, bayoneted, hanged, or whatever), by the ruling communists.

Those deaths where communist ideology may or may not have been the non-proximate cause, should not be included. If they are, then to be consistent there would be a good argument for considering the deaths of WWI, WWII, and the 13 million children who starve to death each year now, all 'capitalist' mass killings.

Lets look at the PRC, where the biggest numbers of so called 'mass killings' are alleged to have happened. Those executed during the entire time of the Mao years, amount to, at a maximum, 3 or 4 million (Phillip Short, Mao a Life, page 632). The GLF deaths, were unintended consequences of ill-conceived policies, exacerbated by the uniform policies applied over a huge geographical and diverse area. It is absurd to say that Mao launched the GLF intending that it would fail. Absolutely absurd. Some may argue he did not do enough to mitigate its effects when they were brought to his knowledge. But that still does not constitute murder. After all no one accuses the British of 'murdering' 20 million Indian famine victims at the end of the 19th Century (out of a population at the time of 200 million), even though these deaths, like the Great Leap deaths, were victims of poor planning, and inadequate relief measures during the mass dyings. Furthermore the peak year of deaths of the Great Leap (1960), saw the worst climatic conditions in a whole century. People killed by these conditions, again, should not be counted under 'communist mass killings.'

Killings are these. Where someone, by order of those in power in communist regimes, kills or executes someone, and that person was WRONGLY killed.

The fact is many of those executed by Mao (and by Stalin) were guilty of the crimes they were accused of. But lets say then, 1/4 were innocent (actually more likely 1/20 were innocent). Then Mao's actual killings of innocent people (ie deaths ordered and intended by him) were something of the order of 500,000?

Most of the deaths of the Cultural Revolution were from factional infighting, few from direct executions ordered by Mao. In fact when things did start to get out of hand Mao sent the PLA in to restore order. Furthermore in an interview with Edgar Snow in 1970, Mao regretted the excesses. He admitted that things had got out of hand with factional infighting, and that the army had suffered 'thousands of casualties' when restoring order. Mao said the struggle should be carried out by 'reasoning, not coercion or force'. Mao also deplored the maltreatment of 'captives.' So Mao here was admitting to problems with the CR in 1971. http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=MEAEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA46&lpg=PA46&dq=%27life+magazine%27+edgar+snow+mao&source=bl&ots=vBLON6FIwN&sig=10-XalKTNMsUroBHQWmYAJcDZPY&hl=en&ei=O2gZTZC-I8aycMzZ5J8K&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CB0Q6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=cambodia&f=false

If Mao and Maoism is responbible for all deaths that occurred in a revolution he launched (and yes, the CR was obviously - a 'revolution'), and that revolution was for ideological purposes, not to kill people, then saying most of the deaths during the CR were 'mass killings' is as ridiculous as saying Bush and Blair are guilty of 'mass killings' of Iraqis and Afghans who werer 'collateral' damage in their invasions of those two places. Or should all the deaths of the American Revolution be attributed to 'mass killings' under Washington?

Of course not.

Philip Short's estimate is reliable. Three or four million executions over the course of Mao's reign. Assuming 1/4 were innocent, we can say one million victims of 'mass killing' under Mao, over 26 years.

Including the part about 'cannibalism' is so ridiculous and outrageous (even MacFarquahar would say so), that perhaps it is good to include it. It just shows that these fanatical anti-communists like Mr Griffin here, are willing to stoop at anything to make their point. That is because they really don't have a strong argument.

But again. Let's all agree upon what constituates 'mass killing'.

Philip Short's Mao - a life http://www.amazon.com/Mao-Life-Philip-Short/dp/0805066381

Prairespark (talk) 04:48, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to propose that Prairespark's 'contributions' to this talk page be deleted as a violation of talk page usage, on the basis that they are (a) WP:OR, and (b) WP:CB. The debate has got quite ridiculous enough without introducing bogus 'statistical' arguments about some of the alleged victims actually deserving what they got. Actually, I suspect that Prairespark may well be a troll. (and if you don't like this, Prairespark, be prepared to justify the crap you've just posted) AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:04, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

"(these User:C.J. Griffin's words are definitely highly uncivil)." Not nearly as uncivil as prariespark branding me as a racist, but apparently no one noticed that. Bah, enough of this nonsense. Here's another shot:

Some states that have declared adherence to some form of Communist doctrine have killed significant numbers of people or facilitated their untimely deaths. The highest death tolls that have been documented the Soviet Union under Stalin, in the People's Republic of China under Mao, and in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge. It is widely believed that millions, perhaps tens of millions, lost their lives in various episodes of mass killing by these regimes. There have also been killings on a smaller scale in North Korea, Vietnam, and some Eastern European and African countries. Some higher estimates of mass killings include not only murders or executions that took place during the mass elimination of political opponents, mass terror campaigns, and land reforms but also lives lost due to war, famine and disease. There are scholars who believe that government policies and mistakes in management contributed to these calamities, and, based on that conclusion add a considerable part of these deaths to the death tolls under their study. The validity of such an approach in calamities, such as those in Russia, China, and elsewhere has been questioned by others. Some of the killings may fit a definition of mass murder, democide, politicide, "classicide", "crimes against humanity", or loosely defined genocide.

--C.J. Griffin (talk) 05:08, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Although Prairespark's writing is lengthy, I fail to see how his views are any more WP:OR than is normal for this article. TFD (talk) 05:12, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

"Some states that have declared adherence to some form of...." You cannot begin an article that way. TFD (talk) 05:15, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

"Some states that have declared adherence to some form of...." no, TFD, you are quite right, you can't begin an article like that. But unless you do, the justification for the article disappears entirely. And yes, you are probably right about Prairespark's writing not being particularly OR, but that is because the entire article is a dubious synthesis. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:24, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

"I'd like to propose that Prairespark's 'contributions' to this talk page be deleted as a violation of talk page usage, on the basis that they are (a) WP:OR, and (b) WP:CB."

Coming to an agreement on what constitutes 'mass killing' is surely a legitimate area for discussion.

As China allegedly plays such a big role in these 'mass killings', discussing what the final numbers should be for China, should also be a legitimate area of discussion.

As for 'facilitating untimely deaths' - sure. As long as Mr Griffin, would believe that Bush and Blair are also 'mass killers' for facilitating the 'untimely' deaths of up to one million Iraqis. If he does not, then he should apply the same standard to alleged deaths under communism.

How about:

It has been alleged that some states that have declared adherence to some form of Communist doctrine, have killed significant numbers of people or facilitated their untimely deaths. The highest death tolls that have been alleged are for the Soviet Union under Stalin, in the People's Republic of China under Mao, and in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge. Some scholars, mostly Western, claim that millions, perhaps tens of millions, lost their lives in various episodes of mass killings by these regimes. Killings have also been alleged, albeit on a much smaller scale in North Korea, Vietnam, and some Eastern European and African countries. Some higher estimates of mass killings include not only murders or executions that took place during the mass elimination of political opponents, mass terror campaigns, and land reforms but also lives lost due to war, famine and disease. There are scholars who believe that government policies and mistakes in management contributed to these calamities, and, based on that conclusion add a considerable part of these deaths to the death tolls under their study. The validity of such an approach towards calamities, such as those in Russia, China, and elsewhere has been questioned by others. Some of the killings may fit a definition of mass murder, democide, politicide, "classicide", "crimes against humanity", or loosely defined genocide, others may not. Other scholars will also point to fact that these allegations often reflect the ideological bias of those making the allegations, and that if a consistent definition of 'mass killing' were applied across the board, regardless of the ideology of the regime concerned, communist 'mass killings', on a proportionate, and even absolute basis, would not be significantly higher, and would perhaps even be lower than those carried out by the Western democracies.

--

Prairespark (talk) 05:37, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

"I'd like to propose that Prairespark's 'contributions' to this talk page be deleted...." I second that. Someone please revert prariespark's recent edits. He has done this twice now even though no consensus has been reached on the talk page. I have already reverted once and to do so again would violate 1RR. I'm declaring prariespark a vandal at this point.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 06:00, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

"I'd like to propose that Prairespark's 'contributions' to this talk page be deleted...." I second that."

I thought this was the type of thing you people accused us of....hmmmm how very 'Stalinist' of you Mr Griffin! Prairespark (talk) 09:03, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

By the way I will also be pushing for deletion of references to 'cannibalism' under the Cultural revolution section. Bringing in anectdotes of single criminal incidents, which were not related to the cultural revolution at all, even less ordered by the communst leadership is mischievous and should be considered vandalism. It is the equivalent of bringing up say, Jeffrey Dahmer, in a hypothetical article on American capitalism to attack American capitalism. Or making My Lai the centrepiece of an article on Richard Nixon.

Prairespark (talk) 02:49, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Again - article talk pages are not where editors say what they wish to "push." WP articles contain statements made in reliable sources, according to consensus on the article talk pages and WP policies and guidelines, and that is all that counts. Collect (talk) 03:05, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. If we had reliable sources that linked cannibalism with the Cultural Revolution, we'd be perfectly entitled to include them, regardless of what the 'communist leadership' had to say about it. The argument that they didn't approve of it, and therefore it can't have been due to anything they did, is so utterly divorced from any materialist understanding of history (and simple common sense) that it isn't worthy of debate. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:22, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, certainly the case of the sharebroker who several years ago in the US, lost his money, and then went home in humiliated rage and killed his kids with a hammer, had something to do with capitalism. So we should perhaps include that particular case in the Wikipedia article on capitalism? AndyTheGrump - not even MacFarquhar draws such a long bow.

Prairespark (talk) 09:54, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

No, you are once again missing the point entirely. It isn't up to you or me to link 'communism' with cannibalism, or 'capitalism' with murder. I'd actually agree with the latter link myself in the case you describe, but it needs to be made by a reliable source to be included in Wikipedia. That is all I said about cannibalism: if somebody sees a link, we can say they see it. We don't have to agree with it. We don't necessarily have to include it - this will depend on their credibility etc, but we can't exclude it because we don't agree with them. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:31, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Mass killings under colonial regimes

Note this part of the article:

"Rosefielde also notes that "while it is fashionable to mitigate the Red Holocaust by observing that capitalism killed millions of colonials in the twentieth century, primarily through man-made famines, no inventory of such felonious negligent homicides comes close to the Red Holocaust total."

R J Rummel has recently revised his estimate for 20th Century colonial democide up from 870,000 to a minimum of 50 million. It was only recently that King Leopold's slaughter of Congolese (10 to 20 million victims) was brought to his attention.

Rummel compares the crimes of colonialism to the Gulags. He states "I’ve reevaluated the colonial toll. Where exploitation of a colony’s natural resources or portering was carried out by forced labor (in effect slavery of a modern kind), as it was in all the European and Asian colonies, then the forced labor system built in its own death toll from beatings, punishment, coercion, terror, and forced deprivation. There were differences in the brutality of the system, the British being the least brutal and Leopold and the French, Germans, and Portuguese the worst. We all know what the Soviet gulag was like. These colonizers turned Africa into one giant gulag, with each colony being like a separate camp." http://democraticpeace.wordpress.com/2008/12/20/exemplifying-the-horror-of-some-european-colonization%E2%80%94leopolds-congo/

Rummel's claim seems reasonable - this makes colonialism at least as murderous as communism. Note that part of the reason for communisms high absolute toll is the large populations of Russia and China. The proportion of the population killed should also be considered.

Some mention should be made of the murderous of colonial democide, to provide an alternative perspective from that of Rosefielde's.

Prairespark (talk) 13:17, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

This article is about mass killing under communist regimes, I don't think we should start coat racking off-topic material into this article, but by all means feel free to create an article Mass killings under colonial regimes, it seems to be a notable topic. --Martin (talk) 16:30, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Interesting comment, Martin. Prairiespark was questioning the accuracy of a statement in the article that the number of colonials killed by capitalism was far lower than the number killed by Communists. However, we should not use Rummel's blog or other writings that have not been published in the academic press. Note too that Rummel describes colonialism as a form of socialism, not capitalism. TFD (talk) 16:58, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't know if the presumption that colonialism is necessarily a capitalist phenomena is valid, there seems to be a lot of sources in regard to communist colonialism, perhaps there could be an article on Communist colonialism. The text that Prairespark refers to is attributed to Rosefielde, thus that is his viewpoint, we have no way of knowing if Rosefielde made his assertion in light of Rummel's figures or not, may be he has other information Rummel does not have access to, we just don't know. --Martin (talk) 20:44, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Rummel is clearly referring to 19th and early 20th century Western European colonialism and names the powers (UK, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Portugal, the US). He exludes earlier colonialism (e.g., the Conquistadors), European and Asian land empires, and later "imperialism" by Communist and Western nations. TFD (talk) 21:07, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Why would colonialism be a form of capitalism? A50000 (talk) 16:48, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

The colonialism referred to was carried out by capitalist countries and the colonies were largely established as privately owned business enterprises. TFD (talk) 17:20, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Capitalism means private ownership of the means of production. Colonialism is always carried out by states. A50000 (talk) 19:01, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

In the case of Congo - the killings were done under feudal ownership by Leopold personally of the Congo - it was not even owned by Belgium. We should have an article Mass killings under feudal regimes to be sure. Collect (talk) 19:11, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

The Virginia Company, the East India Company, the Hudson's Bay Company, the Falkland Islands Company, the Dutch East India Company, etc., were all private corporations. Even where colonial administration was directly controlled by the colonial powers, as in Hawaii, effective economic control has usually given to private corporations. Collect's view of the Belgian Congo is pure OR - it was the private property run as a privately-owned business. As Collect points out, Leopold's role as Belgian head of state and owner of the Congo were distinct. It later became a colony of Belium and its economy was organized along capitalist lines, with private investment in mining and agriculture. TFD (talk) 19:30, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

British colonisation of Terra Australis was a government enterprise, being originally a penal colony for Britain's criminals. The primary destination for these convicts was New South Wales, but the worst those were re-transported to Van Diemen's Land. The attempted eradication of the Tasmanian Aborigines in the Black War was sanctioned by the governor who proclaimed martial law for the purpose. --Martin (talk) 10:27, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Transportation, indentured servitude and slavery were used as methods of supplying cheap labor to privately owned plantations in the colonies. Indigenous populations were enslaved, deported or exterminated in order to allow for economic development. In the U.S., where during colonial times most immigrants arrived as convicted criminals, indentured servants, or slaves, the process continued long after independence, with the exception of transportation from the British Empire. TFD (talk)

While these practices by colonial regimes ended by the mid 20th century, communist regimes continued to use internal transportation, indentured servitude, slavery and penal labour camp systems to provide cheap labour to the state, in the case of the Soviet Union this system was called GULAG. --Martin (talk) 19:51, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Rummel includes the 50 million colonial democide figure, not only in a blog, but on his webpage summarising 20th century democide. http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

I do find it interesting that people emphasise the 100 million victims of communism, yet do not take into account that the USSR and China especially had very large populations. There were simply more people to kill - or ill-conceived policies would automatically cause large numbers of deaths. Surely what also needs to be taken into account is the proportion of the target population decimated.

If proportion of the population is taken into account then the crimes of King Leopold in the Congo would certainly exceed anything that Mao and Stalin got up to, as well as the American genocide of Phillipinos, with 600000 to a million civilian deaths - out of a population of about 7 million.

It should also be noted also that the excess deaths of the GLF famine were measured relative to very low mortality rates which the communists had achieved in the first decade of their rule (and for which they had drawn much praise). In fact the death rate of 25 to 30 per thousand during the worst year of the GLF (ie 1960) was not that much higher than the 24 per thousand mortality rate in India and other developing nations of the time, and was in fact less than the death rates of many of the years in China before 1949. But 25 deaths per thousand over the 11 deaths per thousand achieved in China previously did mean a lot of excess deaths. To provide context it should be mentioned that overally mortality did decline significantly during Maos rule (even during the period of the Cultural Revolution) and life expectancy doubled- in spite of the tragic setback of the GLF. The results of this are obvious. The increase in population under Mao (the most rapid population rise in Chinese history) was seven times the percentage increase of the 27 years leading up to 1949. Yet fertility declined under Mao -thus the only explanation for the doubling of the population under Mao, is dramatic declines in mortality.

Prairespark (talk) 18:37, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Well if you find a published reliable source that states just what you have postulated, then I'm sure it could be worked into the article with proper attribution, otherwise some editors here may deem it to be WP:OR or WP:SYNTH. --Martin (talk) 20:44, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

As I explained many times, Rummel's figures are questionable: he gives 40+ million Gulag death, whereas the amount of people passed through Gulag was 14 million (and the amount of documented deaths, estimated based on various independent data sets, was ca 2 million), he gives grossly exaggerated figures for Yugoslavia, for Russian civil war, etc. His approach has been criticised by many scholars and his numbers (especially the numbers taken from his web site) should not be used.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:22, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree that Rummel's numbers for the USSR are too high (especially Gulag fatalities). However, if his colonial democide estimates are added to the article, then his Communist democide estimates should be added as well (110,000,000 revised upward to 148,000,000).(http://democraticpeace.wordpress.com/2008/11/24/getting-my-reestimate-of-maos-democide-out/). And based on the name and the arguments put forth by "Prariespark," I'm suspecting this could be yet another Jacob Peters sock. One of his confirmed socks was Spark31.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 14:53, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, Rummel seems to be completely unreliable. For instance Jung Chang's biography of Mao has been roundly panned by China scholars, yet Jung Chang is the only reason why Rummel revises upwards China's democide total, based only on Chang's utterly dishonest arguments. Maybe we should consign all of Rummel's work to the proverbial dust bin.

There were no 30 or 40 million deaths from starvation in the GLF famine. There were about 25 million excess deaths, relative to the very low mortality rates that the communists had achieved in the first decade of rule. There was only one year where the mortality rate exceeded the level of 1940s China. And that was 1960 (mortality of 44 per thousand), a year of massive flooding and the most atrocious climatic conditions in a whole century. In the other years, Judith Banister (the doyen of China demographic studies) has found mortality rates (around 25 per thousand) at about the same level as those in India, Indonesia, and other developing countries of the time. Jung Chang to max out her excess deaths calculation assumed a 1% mortality rate (10 in 1000) for 1957. In fact this was the crude death rate of the US at the time - obviously a ridiculous figure for China. The actual number of GLF deaths that can be directly attributable to famine, if excess deaths are calculated relative to the levels to pre-revolutionary China, and India, Indonesia etc at the time is something of the order of 4 to 5 million.

There is convergence of evidence with other sources. Look at life expectancy trends for China, India, Egypt, South Africa, Indonesia, and South Korea from 1960 to today. http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=sp_dyn_le00_in&idim=country:CHN&dl=en&hl=en&q=life+expectancy+china#met=sp_dyn_le00_in&idim=country:CHN:IDN:IND

Two significant things from the trends. 1. The life expectancy of Chinese in 1960, the year of supposedly the worst famine in all of human history, was higher than that of India and Indonesia. Again the excess deaths were calculated relative to very low levels just prior to the leap. 2. The years of the Cultural Revolution saw perhaps the greatest jump in life expectancy in the history of the PRC. Fully a decade of life expectancy was added, ie a one year increment in life expectancy for each year of the Cultural Revolution. Far from a holocaust, the Cultural Revolution period was the most successful in all of Chinese history, in raising life expectancy and literacy, in spite of its may excesses which we all know of.

In fact far from being a murdering tyrant, Mao presided over the most rapid decrease in mortality, in consequentially the greatest rate of increase in life expectancy in all of documented history. This is the subject of an ongoing Stanford University study. http://healthpolicy.stanford.edu/research/health_improvement_under_mao_and_its_implications_for_contemporary_aging_in_china/

And by the way I'm not Jacob Peters. Anyone with even a modicum of Chinese historical knowledge will be able to guess correctly the inspiration behind 'prairespark'.

Prairespark (talk) 04:12, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

It will take a year or two, but Dikotter's work will soon be going the way of Rummel's - to the dustbin (or at least it should). I have not the time nor space to go into all the things wrong with his work in any great detail, but just three points:

1. As with Jung Chang, Dikotter assumes an unbelievably low annual mortality leading up to the GLF of 1% (and unwittingly credits the communists with having reduced mortality even more than the communists credit theselves - Banister has a death rate of 3.8% in 1949), to max out his excess death count. Like I said previously 1% is completely unbelievable - it's about the same as the United States at that time and not that much higher than the US mortality rate of 0.84% today. The typical mortality rate in the developing world in the late 1950s was 2 to 3 per thousand.

2. Dikotter, from reviewing the archives of public security organs, that violence must have been widespread during the GLF. He offers absolutely no statistical calculation of this. One would suspect if one went to the police archives of any country in the world, one would naturally be faced with pages and pages of documented violence - its just common sense that this is so. However even Dikotter says this violence was not orchestrated from the top, rather violent excesses were in fact recorded by people at the bottom and these reports were passed to the top in an effort to keep the leadership apprised of what was going on. Some of the acts of violence, as well as famine deaths, were found out by investigatory teams sent out by Beijing to find out the true picture of what was going on. So obviously the violence (which was probably less than the violence in an average American city) was not ordered from the top. By recounting incidents of random violence, Dikotter conscripts the reader into his point of view - and by the final chapter when he presents his 'analysis' of the death toll, the reader will be loathe to challenge him on his 'facts.'

3. Dikotter's fraudulent misuse of a picture of a begging child from a 1946 famine (not an 'official' famine) on the cover of his paperback edition, is not only an appalling act of intellectual dishonest, but also essentially racist. His attitude is 'any starving asian will do'. He has been taken to task by Adam Jones (the renowned Canadian genocide scholar) for this. Adam Jones says on his website "may I also suggest that the very extensive airbrushing, replacement/grafting of background, colourization and so on of the original image is curiously reminiscent of communist practice under Mao and Stalin?" http://jonestream.blogspot.com/2010/10/did-dikotter-misrepresent-famine-image.html

Dikotter's fraudalent use of this image and other famine images from pre-revolutionary China can be seen on videos he appears in to discuss the famine: http://web.mac.com/dikotter/Dikotter/Interviews.html

Dikotter elsewhere, and in fact in his book, says there are no non-propaganda images of the GLF, yet he fills his book cover and videos with famine images from old China. Again, just utterly dishonest.

Prairespark (talk) 04:34, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Certainly we should not be using books published outside the academic mainstream, even when written by scholars, because they do not have the same rigorous standards and or have the same intensive scrutiny that academic writing does. Jones, for example,says he has not read the book. Essentially we are relying on WP editors to do the fact-checking and decide the weight that should be accorded the conclusions in the book, even though no scholars have yet commented on them. Aside from the problem of the fake photo on the cover, and the fact that Dikotter has received funding from a KMT group, it seems bizarre that he claims he was given access to documents, yet none to photographs. TFD (talk) 05:25, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

There may be no photographs of outright starvation. For example my wife's grandfather died during the leap from illness - probably prematurely from malnutrition. That is altogether different from the whole place looking like Belsen or Auschwitz (although specific parts of China might well have). China at the height of the GLF would have looked little different to India, Bangladesh, Indonesia, or Egypt of the time. The only year in which conditions were truly exceptional was 1960, due to extensive flooding.

The image used on his book is no doubt fake, if you follow the link provided by Jones, and in Dikotter's book itself, on the first page of the photographs section, there is a note in small print saying that no non-propaganda images of the period have been found, at least by him to date. Dikotter again confirms this in this newsweek article. http://www.newsweek.com/2010/09/26/mao-s-great-famine.html

Therefore Dikotter must know full well that the images he uses for his book cover and videos are not from the GLF. But obviously he does not care. They have emotional impact and help him get his point across.

Again any intelligent person could not fail to note that the excess deaths are calculated against very low assumed initial rates of mortality. This maximizes the excess death count. But the most widely respected mortality rate for 1949 is 38/1000 by Judith Banister - a typical figure for developing nations of the time. Dikotter, and Chang by using a ridiculouse 1957 figure of 10/1000 unwittingly give credit to the communists for reducing death rates in less than ten years by 28 deaths per thousand! So surely Mao, if he is to be condemned for the credit of excess deaths during the GLF, to be fair he should be credited for the deficit in deaths from 1949 up to the GLF, which would surely outweigh even Dikotter's outlandish figure of 45 million (in fact a very rough calc puts the lives saved from 1949 to 1958 due to a reduction in the death rate to around 90 million).

The fact is Mao's overall record should be looked at. And it seems that all the data, the demographic data agree on one thing. China's population exploded (increasing at about 3 to 4 times the rate in Mao's time) of the 3 decades leading up to 1949. Why is this? All the evidence points to falling fertility during Mao's time. So the only possible reason for the doubling of population under Mao is a dramatic reduction in mortality. The fastest rate of increase in life expectancy happened under Mao and is currently the subject of an ongoing Yale University study. http://healthpolicy.stanford.edu/research/health_improvement_under_mao_and_its_implications_for_contemporary_aging_in_china/

Other authors have estimated that had China had the mortality rates of India, Indonesia, or other developing countries of similar GDP during Mao's time, there would have been 100 million more excess deaths. These facts are easily verifiable, with the data that is readily at hand to Western researchers. Even the most anti-communist of scholars do not dispute the data.

But when it comes to communism, it seems rhetoric and emotion override any objective analysis of the actual data.

I'm sure if someone comes out tomorrow and says Mao killed 200 million, people would just swallow it as fact.

Prairespark (talk) 06:07, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

A simple analysis:

I am not the first to point this out. We use Judith Banister's CHINA'S CHANGING POPULATION, which is widely considered the most authoritative work on China's population. The figures presented below are adjusted from the official rates by Banister, to take into account underreporting of deaths.

Year Deaths per thousand among the population

1949 38

1950 35

1951 32

1952 29

1953 25.77

1954 24.20

1955 22.33

1956 20.11

1957 18.12

1958 20.65

1959 22.06

1960 44.60

1961 23.01

1962 14.02

1963 13.81

Note that the Famine years are considered to be 1958 to 1961. However it would be a mistake to say that the conditions of 1958,59, and 61, were famine years. If so why not the years 1949 to 1954 when mortality rates were actually higher than 1958, 59, and 61?

So you can see the famine, except for 1960, is a statistical construct.

Compare the death rates of the 1959 to 61 with the mortality rates of India at the same time (Fig 16.3): http://envfor.nic.in/divisions/ic/wssd/doc2/ch16.htm

You can see that in the late 1950s, India's mortality was about 22/1000. That is more or less the same mortality rate as Banister's figures for 1958, 59, and 61. The single outlier is of course 1960. Here is something else that is interesting. If India was at 22 deaths per thousand, yet not considered to be in famine, why not China?

Let's go back a bit further. Look at China in 1949. Banister puts mortality at 38 deaths per thousand. Yet 1949 is not considered as a famine year by any researcher, nor are any of the years of the late 1940s. So for our purposes lets consider 38/1000 as the norm for pre-revolutionary China (it was actually probably a lot higher).

If we then take 44.6 deaths - 38 = 6.6 excess deaths per thousand in China in 1960.

6.6 deaths per thousand * 650 million / 1000 = 4.29 million deaths.

Thus the actual famine deaths, taking 38 per thousand mortality as the threshold between famine and non-famine, would give 4.29 famine deaths in China associated with the GLF. Such a famine of course would be a typical size one in China, with 5 million deaths claimed for a 1930s famine in China. Of course proportionally it would have less impact because China's population in the 1930s was around 450 million, whereas by 1960 it was around 650 million.

That is the fair way to look at the figures. Far from the greatest famine in history, the GLF famine should perhaps be considered the greatest REVERSAL in history - because up to the GLF the communists were doing so well in reducing mortality. And they came back on track after the famine.

Prairespark (talk) 06:52, 31 December 2010 (UTC) --Prairespark (talk) 06:52, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

An incredible amount of OR does not really affect what RS sources state - which is what WP editors are required to use. As for assuming that a rate of 38/M is "normal - that is past credulity indeed. And if one wishes to do mortality comparisons, the ages of death are important considerations - there is no doubt, apparently, that the early years of PRC saw a very large number of deaths due to war/rebellion/political reasons, and that 1958 - 1961 saw large numbers of death officially attributed to famine (noting regions which were heavily affected, and deaths by age cohort). It is not up to us to do the calculations when RS sources have done so. We are not to know facts not easily determined in sources. Collect (talk) 07:05, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

"As for assuming that a rate of 38/M is "normal - that is past credulity indeed."

But 38/thousand would quite likely normal, especially when we consider that this was the average rate of mortality in India in the 1920s (not considered a famine period). And unlike India, China went through foreign invasion and political upheaval on a huge scale in the 1930s and 1940s - something that India escaped. The Chinese government also did not have effective control of the entire country for many decades. It was the unity that the communists gave China, that started to move the country ahead. Note also that pre WWI Russia had average mortality of around 33 per thousand.

In any case 38/1000 for 1949 is the best estimate by researchers to date. I think we have to accept the figure.

Anecdotally, my grandparents in southern China (a relatively rich area) were relatively well off. In the 1930s and 40s my father and his siblings were born. Of eight children born, 3 died in early childhood. This was for a relatively prosperous land-owning and educated family. One can only surmise the actual mortality rates for the entire country - they would have been absolutely horrendous - in fact probably at or even exceeding 1960 GLF proportions.

Interestingly Life magazine (where Dikotter stole the picture of the starving boy for his cover) clearly shows horrendous famine in nationalist China in 1946. The link is here. The title is 'Millions are starving in the once-rich rice bowl". http://books.google.com/books?id=81QEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=1946,+china,+famine,+child&source=bl&ots=PipWY2aPx-&sig=EaQQV01IVdN85DLlZ2yLdbGYQc0&hl=en&ei=HiyhTPq-BcvFswaM6p3wAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&sqi=2&ved=0CCgQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=1946%2C%20china%2C%20famine%2C%20child&f=false

Yet, incredibly no researcher considers 1946 a famine year!

The 38/1000 is all too believable.

In fact the reason why so few Chinese hold the GLF against Mao is probably because for them it was nothing unique. The conditions in prerevolutionary China were every bit as bad.

The important thing to note however that the GLF was the only famine to afflict New China. The overall record for Mao's time, is the most dramatic decline in mortality rates in history, saving tens of millions of lives, when compared to the performance of other developing countries.

As for an academic study addressing some of the points I have made above, I refer you to Utsa Patnaik: “On Famine and Measuring ‘Famine Deaths.’” Thinking Social Science in India: Essays in Honour of Alice Thorner. Ed. Sujata Patel, Jasodhara Bagchi, and Krishna Raj. New Delhi: Sage, 2002. Prairespark (talk) 07:39, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

"And if one wishes to do mortality comparisons, the ages of death are important considerations - there is no doubt, apparently, that the early years of PRC saw a very large number of deaths due to war/rebellion/political reasons, and that 1958 - 1961 saw large numbers of death officially attributed to famine"

That is true. And famine, according to many researchers, hits the very young and elderly the worst. But look at infant mortality for China in 1960 vs India. Both are at 150 / 1000. Yet China is in famine and India is not?

China infant mortality rate, 1960: http://globalis.gvu.unu.edu/indicator_detail.cfm?IndicatorID=25&Country=CN

India infant mortality rate, 1960: http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=sp_dyn_imrt_in&idim=country:CHN&dl=en&hl=en&q=infant+mortality+rates+china#met=sp_dyn_imrt_in&idim=country:CHN:IND

Prairespark (talk) 07:55, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

This incredible amount of highly dubious OR is not going to affect the article in any way, shape or form, so I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish here with your diarrhea of the mouth. You spend alot of time trashing Dikotter, yet there is not one review that I have seen which disputes any of the key points in Dikotter's book. Quite the opposite in fact. Regarding the blog by Adam Jones, he spends most of his time refuting the views of the individual who brought the alleged photo misrepresentation to his attention, which are very similar to yours interestingly enough. He also recently posted this to his blog under "China/Famine Crimes" which you might find interesting: Finding the Facts About Mao's Victims.

Anyway, we need to get back to the issue at hand, which is finding a consensus on how the lede is going to be written. Here is another attempt:

Mass killings under Communist regimes during the twentieth century resulted in the estimated deaths of between ?? million and 100 million people. The highest death tolls have been documented in the Soviet Union under Stalin, in the People's Republic of China under Mao, and in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge. Estimates of the number of killings vary widely: for these three countries ranging from 21 million to 70 million. There have also been killings on a smaller scale in North Korea, Vietnam, and some Eastern European and African countries. Some higher estimates of mass killings include not only murders or executions that took place during the mass elimination of political opponents, mass terror campaigns, and land reforms but also lives lost due to war, famine and disease. There are scholars who believe that government policies and mistakes in management contributed to these calamities, and, based on that conclusion add a considerable part of these deaths to the death tolls under their study. The validity of such an approach in calamities, such as those in Russia, China, and elsewhere has been questioned by others. Some of the killings may fit a definition of mass murder, democide, politicide, "classicide", "crimes against humanity", or loosely defined genocide. (Insert citations where necessary)

--C.J. Griffin (talk) 14:24, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

The question is whether we should use the analysis that is agreed to in academic writing or that of Dikotter's book, which was published outside the academic mainstream (this year) and has received good book reviews. Whether or not Dikotter's views will gain academic acceptance or even if they will gain any attention is something that we cannot know. I suspect that if another scholar comes up with a new book representing Prairespark's viewpoint, you would be the first to object. TFD (talk) 16:13, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

C.J. Griffin said: "so I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish here with your diarrhea of the mouth." Moderator - is this considered a civilised way to carry out a debate?

C.J. Griffin said: "You spend alot of time trashing Dikotter, yet there is not one review that I have seen which disputes any of the key points in Dikotter's book."

True. They also praised Jung Chang's book to the skies when it first came out. Give it another year or two. By then those with a sincere interest in the topic will note its myriad misrepresentations. It certainly has a more scholarly veneer than the Jung Chang tome. But I confidently predict it will follow the latter work to literary and scholastic oblivion all the same.

How about the following -

Mass killings under Communist regimes during the twentieth century have been alleged to result in the estimated deaths of between ?? million and 100 million people. The highest alleged death tolls have been documented in the Soviet Union under Stalin, in the People's Republic of China under Mao, and in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge. Estimates of the number of killings vary widely: for these three countries ranging from 21 million to 70 million. There have also been killings on a smaller scale in North Korea, Vietnam, and some Eastern European and African countries. Some higher estimates of mass killings include not only murders or executions that took place during the mass elimination of political opponents, mass terror campaigns, and land reforms but also lives lost due to war, famine and disease. There are scholars who believe that government policies and mistakes in management contributed to these calamities, and, based on that conclusion add a considerable part of these deaths to the death tolls under their study. The validity of such an approach in calamities, such as those in Russia, China, and elsewhere has been questioned by others. Some of the killings may fit a definition of mass murder, democide, politicide, "classicide", "crimes against humanity", or loosely defined genocide. However other scholars have cautioned against taking a one-sided approach to the issue, and to see the issue in a wider context. For example Gao (2007) suggested that the Great Leap Forward did in fact have its own logic and rationality, and that its terrible effects came not from malign intent on the part of the Chinese leadership at the time, but instead relate to the nature of rule at the time, and the vastness of China as a country. Gao says "..the terrible lesson learnt is that China is so huge and when it is uniformly ruled, follies or wrong policies will have grave implications of tremendous magnitude". Others have suggested that while China did undoubtedly experience large numbers of famine deaths in the years 1958 to 1961, this toll has to be evaluated in light of the otherwise overall impressive achievements of Maoist China in dramatically improving life expectancy. Gao (2008) also quotes estimates that the Maoist revolution gave an estimated net positive value of 35 billion extra years of life to the Chinese people. Li (2008) has produced data showing that even the peak death rates during the Great Leap Forward were in fact quite typical in pre-Communist China. Li (2008) argues that based even on the average death rate over the three years of the Great Leap Forward, there were several million fewer lives lost during this period than would have been the case under the normal mortality conditions of pre-revolutionary China. (Insert citations where necessary)

--

Look forward to everyone's comments.

Book references as follows:

http://www.amazon.com/China-Demise-Capitalist-World-Economy/dp/158367182X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1293857013&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Gao-Village-Rural-Modern-China/dp/0824831926/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1293857041&sr=1-2

http://www.amazon.com/Battle-Chinas-Past-Cultural-Revolution/dp/074532780X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1293858302&sr=8-1

Prairespark (talk) 05:13, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm afraid this isn't going to fly. First of all too much detail is given to events in the PRC. Secondly these sources are clearly WP:FRINGE and by placing them in the lede you are giving them WP:UNDUE weight--C.J. Griffin (talk) 05:13, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Absolutely ridiculous. Minqi Li, and Mobo Gao are not fringe academics at all. Left wing perhaps. But not fringe. In fact Dikotter is far more 'fringe'. Firstly he is bankrolled by the Chiang Chingkuo foundation (sort of like getting paid by Glen Beck to write a biography of Obama), has come out and said that there was nothing wrong with the British forcing opium onto the Chinese, and Japanese imperialism should not be condemned 'root and branch.' Talk about fringe!

Yet here we have Mobo Gao, an honest writer from rural China who actually lived through the Great Leap Forward, (and has conducted field studies on his village) and had siblings die in it, and Minqi Li, a former dissident and political prisoner in China - and their views, according to Griffin, are 'fringe'.

Yet Dikotter, who knows little about China outside a history textbook (he even gets the character for 'tomb' (mu) mixed up with 'wood' (also mu) - something an eight year old Chinese would not trip up on - refer article by Jonathan Mirsky), and yet because he is a Westerner, praised by other Westerners, his word on China counts for more than that of Minqi Li and Mobo Gao? What a transparent and disgusting display of academic imperialism by Griffin.

Westerners of course understand more about Chinese than the Chinese themselves! Yet, if we had a Chinese academic from say Gansu province, who learned english to a moderate level, resided in the USA for 10 years, and he wrote a biography of say, Andrew Jackson, how much respect do you think it would get from the academic community? Very little of course. Because people would rightly note that simply from 10 years in the country, that would still not be enough time to pick up the cultural context, nuances and subtleties, and understand the motives of Andrew Jackson.

Yet anytime a Westerner says anything about China, his word is taken as gospel over that of a Chinese. The hypocrisy, and yes borderline racism of Griffin is as despicable as it is transparent.

Prairespark (talk) 05:57, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

The publishers are Pluto Press and the University of Hawaii Press, which are clearly academic publishers and therefore reliable sources. Since most of the numbers relate to deaths in China, it makes sense that China should receive the majority of coverage in the article. TFD (talk) 06:00, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Thank you TFD! :)

When are we going to get a decision on the lede - and implement?

Prairespark (talk) 06:04, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Minqi Li is a Marxist whose work was published by Monthly Review Press, a Marxist publisher. Mobo Gao's unrelenting pro-Mao polemic The Battle For China's Past is "about… 'strange concepts', so strange that they challenge the mainstream orthodox narrative; it questions many 'truths' told in memoirs, biographies and autobiographies, both in Chinese and English." And Pluto Press is a "radical" (i.e. Marxist) publisher ("Pluto Press has always had a radical political agenda") that has been accused of putting forth anti-semitic screeds. Yeah, I think "fringe" is the right way to describe them. And they do not belong in the lede of the article.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 06:26, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

"Yet anytime a Westerner says anything about China, his word is taken as gospel over that of a Chinese. The hypocrisy, and yes borderline racism of Griffin is as despicable as it is transparent." Apparently you failed to see that I cited Yang Jisheng several times on this very talk page, along with Chen Yizi and Jung Chang. I suggest you retract that ad hominem about my supposed "racism."--C.J. Griffin (talk) 06:36, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Radical? To who? Mobo Gao's work would in fact align with the views of most Chinese on Mao. Minqi Li is a well respected economist. If they are radicals or fringe, what in heaven's name is Dikotter - who praises drug use and colonialism?

Jung Chang's book has been thoroughly debunked by all serious China scholars - even you know that Mr Griffin. Chen Yizi has close ties with the Falun Gong movement (as flakey a group as you ever will find), and Yang Jisheng, if you read his other works, has a clear political agenda. His dad died during the GLF, as he keeps on going on about? Yeah - was it one of the 'excess' deaths? He never says so. Three of my aunts died in childhood in pre-revolutionary China under Chiang. Does that mean that I can write a biography damning Chiang Kaishek and have it free from criticism? Of course not.

In any case the article is already chock full of people of Mr Griffin's ideological disposition. Very well. Can we, in the interests of fairness, try and inject some balance by including Mobo Gao, and Minqi Li's work?

Or do all sources have to get with Mr Griffin's agenda?

Prairespark (talk) 06:49, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Pluto Press is considered an academic publisher and is distributed by Palgrave MacMillan. The view that only right-wing publications, even those published in the popular press, are reliable, while left-wing books published within the academic press are "fringe" is contrary to Wikipedia policy. Incidentally Furet wrote for Telos and Courtois was a Maoist. TFD (talk) 06:53, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. In fact if Griffin is still not happy, I can go to Maurice Meisner, Chris Bramall, Lei Feigon, as well as Banister, Eggleston, all Western writers who can substantiate what Li and Gao say. I thought it would be good to include a left-wing Chinese perspective. In fact there are also recent Yale and Harvard studies which back up what I have written (and Gao and Li's points) - especially the stuff about life expectancy and literacy.

Prairespark (talk) 06:58, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Basically the quotes of Li and Gao that I have included are not all that outlandish. Here are two recent studies - one by Yale University, the other a Harvard Study which more or less back up the stuff I have included in the lede:

An ongoing Stanford Universy study on Maoist China's phenomenal achievement in doubling life expectancy: http://healthpolicy.stanford.edu/research/health_improvement_under_mao_and_its_implications_for_contemporary_aging_in_china/

Furthermore a group of Harvard researchers have made a compelling case that the reason for China economically outperforming India over the past three decades is related to the health achievements of modern China. An excerpt from the article:

"However, the authors note, China's economy has exploded, expanding by 8.1 percent per capita per year on average between 1980 and 2000, while in the same time period India saw a sustained growth rate in income per capita of 3.6 percent--a rate that, while rapid by the standards of most developing economies, is modest compared to China's. What accounts for the difference? Part of the answer, the HSPH team suggests, is that dramatic demographic changes in China began decades before those in India. After 1949, China's Maoist government invested heavily in basic health care, creating communal village and township clinics for its huge rural population. That system produced enormous improvements in health: From 1952 to 1982, infant mortality in China dropped from 200 to 34 deaths per 1,000 live births. Life expectancy rose from 35 years to 68. And under the government's family planning program, fertility rates dropped by half, from six births per woman in 1970 to three as of 1979." http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/review/rvw_summerfall06/rvwsf06_bloom.html

Is that good enough Mr Griffin?

And also - ff you want to, look up Judith Banister's work - 'Chinas Changing Population' - widely considered the most authoritative work in the West on China's population. Crunch through the numbers yourself - you will find what Li says about mortality is true.

Prairespark (talk) 07:05, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

"Yang Jisheng, if you read his other works, has a clear political agenda." I can't help but laugh at this. Certainly Mobo Gao and Minqi Li don't have a political agenda.. not at all....</sarcasm off> And Yang's authoritative work Tombstone (2008) has been praised almost across the board by China specialists, and, like Dikotter, he has had access to Chinese archival data on the tragedy. I doubt that Mr. Li or Mr. Gao could say the same thing.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 07:09, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

User:C.J. Griffin's user page says, "This user thinks Chairman Mao Zedong is the most evil person to have ever lived" and that "Communism killed 100,000,000 people...." I do not imagine that he is very flexible in his beliefs. TFD (talk) 07:14, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, both Dikotter and Yang have had access to the archives - does not stop them being charlatans - anyone who believes China had a 'normal' death rate of 1% in 1958 in order to max out the 'excess' death count (the same as the US and Canada at the time, while India, Indonesia, Mongolia, Vietnam, Kenya, etc had death rates 2to 2.5%) are either incredibly stupid, or agenda driven fanatics. Or are they secret admirers of Mao? Because if it was 3.8% in 1949 (as Banister has it, and the accepted level for pre-revolutionary China) then a drop to 1% by 1958 is an astounding achievement on the part of the Maoist government. So Mao and socialism should get credit for saving huge number of lives before 1958?

But never mind all this. By all means include Dikotter, Yang, Chen etc. But in the interests of fairness, I propose we also include Mobo Gao and Li Minqi.

Fair deal?

Prairespark (talk) 07:20, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

"This user thinks Chairman Mao Zedong is the most evil person to have ever lived"

I thought it would be perhaps King Leopold. He killed about 25% of the population of the Congo (Pol Pot killed 21%) and in absolute numbers killed almost twice as much as Pol Pot(4 million compared to 2.1 million for Pol Pot). Yet statues of him still abound in Belgium.

Also the Americans wiped out out about 1.4 million Phillipinos out of 9 million during the Phillipines American war. If Mao killed at that rate he would be responsible for close to 110 million deaths. So perhaps it should be McKinley or Ted Roosevelt or whoever it was in charge at the time who are the most evil men in history.

Prairespark (talk) 09:13, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Yang Jisheng is a journalist whose recent book has not been translated into English and has received no attention from the academic community. The description "groundbreaking" is from a former WSJ reporter in a book review/interview. The western scholars who lauded the book is only one scholar, Dali Yang, and we only have a snippet of his commentary made to a reporter. TFD (talk) 09:22, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

"But never mind all this. By all means include Dikotter, Yang, Chen etc. But in the interests of fairness, I propose we also include Mobo Gao and Li Minqi. Fair deal?" Polemical Marxist sources specific to one regime (PRC) are not going to find their way into the lede of this article, period. You'll also notice that Dikotter is cited in the article, but not in the lede.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 15:26, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

"This user thinks Chairman Mao Zedong is the most evil person to have ever lived" This from Jonathan Fenby, taken from the Penguin History of Modern China (2008, p. 351): “Mao’s responsibility for the extinction of anywhere from 40 to 70 million lives brands him as a mass killer greater than Hitler or Stalin, his indifference to the suffering and the loss of humans breathtaking. People were fodder for his increasingly irrational dreams. So what if nuclear war killed half the earth’s inhabitants, he once remarked; it would bring the destruction of imperialism, and the world would become socialist.” This from Roderick MacFarquhar and Michael Schoenhals, taken from Mao's Last Revolution (2006, p. 471) "Together with Joseph Stalin and Adolf Hitler, Mao appears destined to go down in history as one of the great tyrants of the twentieth century."--C.J. Griffin (talk) 15:26, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Well who cares what a couple of Englishmen who can't even speak chinese properly think. Just like you call Stalin a tyrant - yet over 50% of Russians don't think badly of him. And most Chinese revere Mao. That is what is important.

And yes Mao did make the point about nuclear war. And most here agree with him. Just like you would fight to the death for your country England or whatever, I believe Mao was correct in saying what he said. What was he going to do? Just roll over and say yes Sir to the United States - we will do you what you want because you have the bomb? Of course not. Chinese are proud of Mao for sticking up to the Americans.

Killing 40 to 70 million ---what a joke ---then other developing countries like India killed over 100 million. You check the mortality rates year by year. Or perhaps you are innumarate and lack the capability to do the figures. Check out all the demographic profiles the life expectancy stats. Chairman Mao was in fact the greatest humanitarian in history.

Yet all Griffin comes up with is some argument from authority --two Western sources say Mao is the world's most evil man, so he must be. Never mind the CHinese peasants who build shrines to him, hang his portraits etc -- their opinions count for nothing.

Now Griffin. Why is Mao the most evil man over say, King Leopold? If it because Mao is chinese, and it gives your tiny mind full of orientalist prejudice a little thrill?

And if anti-communist polemics go into the lede, Gao and Li should also. The points they make are reasonable, and backed up even by research at Stanford and Harvard. Period.

Prairespark (talk) 18:56, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Please read the appropriate WP policy pages. This talk page is not to be used for saying what you know on a topic - it is for discussions about improving the article using statements made by reliable sources. Whether 500 million people revere Mao has absolutely nothing to do with this article at all. Collect (talk) 19:56, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Re: "Moderator - is this considered a civilised way to carry out a debate?" Wikipedia has no moderators, however, you may go to WP:CIVIL to read how to deal with uncivil editors (these User:C.J. Griffin's words are definitely highly uncivil).

Re User:C.J. Griffin's proposed lead: I repeated many times that "mass killings under Communist regimes" ≠ "mass deaths under Communist regimes" (more precisely, only few scholars equate these two categories). Therefore, any attempt to add the phrase like "Mass killings under Communist regimes during the twentieth century resulted in the estimated deaths of between ?? million and 100 million people" into the lede will be reverted per WP:NPOV. In addition, I doubt we have a sufficient ground to have "Mass killings under Communist regimes" in bold in the lede, because that is not a separate concept, not a separate type of mass killings, and many editors even claim that the article draws no connections between mass killings and Communism.

--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:02, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

C.J. Griffin Collect is right about the talk page not being a general forum to discuss the topic and should only be used to discuss changes to the article. I would also ask that editors please try to be as concise as possible here to allow editors without a lot of time - like me - to keep abreast of things.

Paul, I agree that mass killing is not mass death. I don't agree that including a range of estimates for the (intended) killing given by reliable sources introduces bias. I agree that bolding the phrase "Mass killings under Communist regimes" is probably not justified since it is a descriptive term rather than a quoted term used verbatim in the sources. I disagree that it is not a separate concept, in the sense of a separate or distinct topic (I'm not quite sure if I'm reading you correctly on this issue, however). As for the issue of "many editors" claiming the article draws no connection between mass killing and Communism, is anyone other than TFD pushing that line of argument? It is based upon a misunderstanding: the article is about the "connection" (that seems like a weasel word; "association" may be better) reliable sources have made between mass killing (however termed) and "Communist regimes" (which may or may not have actually practiced ideological communism as defined by any particular Wikipedia editor). AmateurEditor (talk) 03:45, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

C.J. Griffin, Mao's last revolution says that during the Cultural revolution, Mao "abandon[ed] Maoist utopianism in favor of building.... So "practice," not ideology--not Marxism-Leninism, not Mao Zedong Thought--became the "sole criterion of truth." If it worked, it would be done." (pp. 1-2) What does that have to do with the connection between mass killings and Communism? TFD (talk) 21:25, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Don't you mean "the connection between mass killing and Communist regimes"? AmateurEditor (talk) 03:45, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Either the article is about related events, in which case it should be explained or it is about unrelated events, in which case it should be deleted. Either way is fine, but right now it reads like Cold War propaganda from the 1950s, not like a serious encyclopedia article. TFD (talk) 04:13, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

The article is about a topic found in reliable sources. You are perfectly free to believe what you like about the topic, but - according to those reliable sources - what relates these events is the type of government instigating them. That is evident in the article from the title alone. That type of government is conventionally called "Communist" (including in the reliable sources) but, again, you don't have to agree that that is the best or even an accurate label. You do, however, have to accept that Wikipedia is essentially supposed to be a reflection of reliable sources and it is not POV for the article to reflect those sources. If there are other perspectives from reliable sources you feel should also be included, please add them in the body of the article. We don't need to be constantly arguing about this on the talk page. AmateurEditor (talk) 05:00, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Dear AmateurEditor,

1. We both agree that mass killing is not mass death.
2. We both know that the number of premature deaths during the Communist rule in some Communist states is estimated to range from 20+ to 100+ million.
3. We both agree that these deaths include both the victims of mass killings (in its commonsensual definition they include Kampuchean genocide, Stalin's Great Purge, etc) and the victims of diseases, famines, prisoners and deportees mortality, etc.
4. We both agree that, although the events belonging to the later category are not considered as mass killing by majority scholars, some scholars do describe them as mass killings (Valentino), democide (Rummel), Red Holocaust (Rosenfielde).

Based on all said above we cannot give estimates of the number of victims of mass deaths under Communist regimes in the article about mass killings, unless Valentino's "mass killing" theory, Rummel's "Democide" and some other theories are explicitly named in the lede. In other words, if we want to give these estimates, we should turn this article into the article about these theories, not the events themselves.

Alternatively, we can focus on the events that are considered as mass killings by majority scholars (KR genocide, Stalin's purges, Mao's Cultural revolution), and then add a reservation that some scholars extend this list to other events, including famines, etc. Remember, initially this article was devoted to the KR genocide, and had no POV or SYNTH issues. However, when more and more tangentially related materials started to be being added to the article it started to drift to the wrong direction. --Paul Siebert (talk) 05:37, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

1. Yes, I agree.

2,3. These estimates (of 21-70 million in the big three by Valentino, and I assume of 100 million in all communist countries by the Black Book) are not estimates of "premature deaths". In both cases the estimates are of killing for which the regimes are culpable (whether or not we would agree with the sources various judgments in the cases of famine, deportation, etc. - I believe one source distinguishes between "mass murder" and "mass manslaughter" regarding famine deaths, for instance., but both involve regime culpability). I don't know of any source used which includes "excess deaths", which I would not even accept as something that could be estimated.

4. I agree we should not give estimates of "mass deaths" in the lead as if they are really "mass killings" when they are not. I don't agree that that is what these two estimates are. I do think it is very important to include with mention of the range of estimates that, in addition to dispute about the estimated numbers involved, there is also dispute among the estimators about what types of events should be included to begin with.

5. Your "alternatively" suggestion seems to me to be exactly what has been done. Where certain events are disputed as intentional killing, they are segregated in a "Controversies" section. (However, this article did not begin as an article about the Khmer Rouge Genocide, which already had an article. As you can see from the first edit which created the article, here, it was about all of the Communist states from the very beginning.) AmateurEditor (talk) 00:27, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the article was created by Joklolk, a sockpuppet of the troll User:ViperNerd, who claimed that "a low barrier of entry leads to crap".[2] TFD (talk) 00:50, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Re: "In both cases the estimates are of killing for which the regimes are culpable". The problem is that the term "killing" has a different meaning in these books (at least in the first one). Valentino defined so called "Dispossessive mass killings" (famines, deportations, etc.) that are not generally considered as mass killings by others, and after that he combined these "dispossessive mass killings" with "mass killings" proper into the same category. Therefore, the mass killing defined in such are way are not always indistinguishable from "mass mortality", or "mass premature" deaths, the terms used by other scholars.

Re 4. You are probably right, however, everything depends on concrete wording.

Re 5. No. Although famines etc have been separated from the mass killings proper, the estimates of the number of victims haven't. Therefore, the number of 21-70 million will be understood as it it referred to the number of killed (not of killed + died deportees + famine victims + camp mortality + disease deaths, etc).--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:16, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Although I do not know that the famines are not considered intentional killing "by majority of scholars", as you say, it seems that our disagreements boil down to one issue, Valentino's "dispossessive mass killing", because you say that it does not represent "mass killing" as it is conventionally understood and its inclusion in Valentino's estimates distorts them. I want to make a couple points here:

1. On page 69 of his book, Valentino describes "dispossessive mass killing" as a subclass of "mass killing", along with "coercive mass killing". That is, he characterizes things as follows: He defines "mass killing";he divides that "mass killing" into two general classes/categories: "dispossessive" and "coercive"; these two categories he further divides (with some overlap and exceptions) into six types, one of which is "Communist mass killing". (This can be seen as Table 1 on page 70.) So "dispossessive mass killing" is completely a subdivision of Valentino's "mass killing" definition, although "Communist mass killing" is only generally a subdivision of "dispossessive mass killing". Now, Valentino defines mass killing as: "the intentional killing of a massive number of noncombatants", arbitrarily limited to 50,000 within 5 years.(my GoogleBooks preview excludes the specific page where he defines the term in his book, but he also does so in a paper he co-authored which can be read here.) The only difference I see between Valentino's "mass killing" and the conventionally understood "mass killing/mass murder" is the numerical cut-off. He does not include at all people were killed unintentionally under "mass killing" or therefore under "dispossessive mass killing" or "Communist mass killing". So there is no inclusion of "mass mortality"/"mass premature deaths" in Valentino's definition.

2. When Valentino estimates 21 - 70 million deaths for the big three regimes (on page 91 of his book, along with an estimate of "up to 110 million" killed by all Communist regimes), he appears to be citing others anyway, so these estimates would not be based on his definition of "mass killing". My GoogleBooks preview does not let me see who the references are. AmateurEditor (talk) 03:34, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Rather than ask us'all to figure this out, can you please provide a source that explains it. TFD (talk) 03:48, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

"Although I do not know that the famines are not considered intentional killing "by majority of scholars", as you say" I dispute this as well. No doubt some scholars dismiss the notion that famine deaths constitute intentional mass killings (i.e. Wheatcroft, Getty, etc. - usually those of the "revisionist" school), but can we really say that a "majority" do? I know of several reputable scholars who consider such deaths as intentional killings, and have cited them here on this talk page. Recently I've been reading Timothy Snyder's book Bloodlands and he also concurs that the famine deaths in Ukraine constitute deliberate mass killing, and goes into great detail on why this is so. I added his comment to the relevant section of the article.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 15:32, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

We need a source that says what most scholars believe this or that. It is not something that we can determine ourselves. TFD (talk) 16:40, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Re "can we really say that a "majority" do?" Majority scholars (including such rightist writers as Conquest) prefer to speak about the victims of Communist regimes, or about those whose death was caused by one or another action of these regimes. Intentionality is frequently left beyond the scope. By contrast, "mass killing" is usually associated with mass intentional homicide, i.e. the actions having a primary purpose to kill people. Therefore, it is impossible and incorrect to equate, e.g. the Soviet great famine with the Khmer Rouge genocide: the former was no more mass killing than Bengal Famine (both of them were a result of Stalin's or, accordingly, Churchill's actions, although their intentionality is disputable), whereas the latter (as well as Stalin's Great purge, etc) was a purely intentional mass homicide (and was designed as such).

@ AmateurEditor's "When Valentino estimates 21 - 70 million deaths for the big three regimes (...) he appears to be citing others anyway." Correct, but uses the works of others as a source of figures, whereas the interpretation belongs to him. Generally speaking, the figures do not seem to be too inflated (most sources agree the number of excess premature deaths caused by Stalin's regime in the USSR was ca 20 million, which include famines, diseases, non-combat war time death, etc; Since China had much greater population, and because social transformations were even more brutal and radical there, it is highly plausible that the number of deaths was much greater, the Kampuchean case is quite obvious: it was a pure genocide, although its connection with Communism is not as obvious as someone wants to present, so the total number of death may amount 70+ million), however, the idea that all those deaths were a result of mass killings belongs to Valentino, and it is shared by only a part of scholars. Other scholars express quite different ideas and use quite different terminology. Therefore, any figures may be added to the lede only along with direct reference to the specific theories the article is based on.--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:17, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Paul, you may be right about the position most scholars take on victims vs. killed, I don't know one way or the other. TFD is right that we would need to source any statement in the article that states what most scholars believe. Since it appears that neither of us is proposing adding such a statement to the article, I'd rather drop the issue for now. As for the issue of mentioning the range of estimates in the lede, I don't think we need to be too specific as to which estimates include which criteria/assumptions/methods as long as we do state that the differences exist and account for the wide ranges. The details of the differences should be found in the body of the article. AmateurEditor (talk) 01:54, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

It seems many of the issues some editors had with the lede article have been remedied. No more estimates in lede, brief discussion of mass killings vs untimely deaths and that higher estimates tend to include lives lost to war, famine and disease, removal of cannibalism cases from Cultural Revolution, etc. Is this enough to remove the POV tag?--C.J. Griffin (talk) 14:04, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Since it has been more than two weeks without a response or further discussion, it appears that POV issues are no longer in contention. I posted notices on TFD's and Paul Siebert's talk pages informing them that I will remove the POV tag one day from now if they have no further issues to raise. AmateurEditor (talk) 02:56, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Thank you AmateurEditor for posting the reminder on my talk page. Although I agree that significant steps have been done towards a consensus, I still believe that the article needs in some work. In this my posts I focus only on the lede. In my opinion, the lede of the article devoted to such a sensitive topic should contain only indisputable facts and no assertions (which belong to the main article). Concretely, the fact that must be reflected are:

1. In XX century (we discuss mostly XX century, aren't we?) mass mortality events (mass murders, genocides, mass executions, famines, diseases, wars, etc) occurred throughout the world.
2. A considerable part of those events occurred in the states that have declared adherence to some form of Communist doctrine, and, according to various estimates, tens of millions, lost their lives prematurely under Communist regimes. (the fact that people were dying from hunger or as a result of deportations is indisputable, and the total number of those died in such a way was not "millions", but "tens of millions" (in the USSR + China))
3. Part of those mass deaths (e.g. mass executions of political opponents or representatives of some particular social groups) is directly attributed to the deliberate activity of the Communist regimes (no mainstream scholars reject the fact that the KR genocide, or Great Purge, or Cultural Revolution had a primary aim to physically eliminate some categories of peoples)
4. Other, the major part of those deaths is a subject of debates (and we have already discussed these debates a countless number of times).
   The lede written based on this scheme would adequately reflect what mainstream reliable sources say (and would adequately reflect the article). By contrast, the current lead mixes two categories of mass deaths, so the reader cannot understand if we are talking about mass killings defined commonsensually, or we use the Valentino's definition that included "dispossessive mass killings", thereby the exaggerated attention is devoted to the theories of few scholars, which is definitely non-neural.
   By using the scheme proposed by me we would be able to get rid of toothless " millions, perhaps tens of millions", because, again, the fact that "tens of millions, not millions" died prematurely is indisputable (the only question is if all those death were a result of mass killings or not). In addition, I don't know if in the sentence "The validity of such an approach in calamities, such as those in Russia, China, and elsewhere has been questioned by others" it is fully correct to put "elsewhere", because no sources have been cited in this article that question this "elsewhere". At least, there is a consensus that KR mass killing was a classical genocide, and noone dispute that. I also disagree with the usage of the word "Russia" in the lede: the name of the state where the discussed events occurred was the USSR.
   Regards, --Paul Siebert (talk) 02:25, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

I know how easy it can be to overlook a comment on a talk page when you are involved in other things, so you're welcome. I don't see anything to disagree with in your suggestions. I still disagree with your characterization of "dispossessive mass killing" as something other than a subcategory of the commonsense definition (Valentino only narrowed the definition of mass killing with his specifications on both intent and scale in his working definition, and "dispossessive" was a subcategory of this narrowed definition), but I don't know what else I can do to convince you of this. I also still disagree that stating the range of total numerical estimates in the lede is not appropriate. However, we can argue about these things when we have resolved everything else. AmateurEditor (talk) 15:02, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

If we accept the scheme proposed by me, I see no problem to include the range of total numerical estimates of those who died prematurely under Communist rule. It would not be a POV to say so, because the population losses are not a subject of serious debates. However, since only a part of scholars attribute all those losses to mass killings, we should discuss this issue after the estimates are presented. In other words, the facts should be presented as: "(i) A large amount of people were killed, executed, murdered, and much greater amount died as a result of war, famine and diseases; (ii) the estimates of total amount of premature death range from 20 to 70, sometimes to 100 million; (iii) some authors describe those deaths as mass killings and attribute all of them to deliberate policy of the Communist authorities, whereas others prefer to use a different terminology and provide different explanation of those events". (the concrete wording may be different)--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:40, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Article is one sided

I fail to see why this article became an condemnation of Communist regimes instead of one that simply explores the various incidences of mass killings. It contains a large amounts of speculation, and cherry-picked opinions and quotes of selected academics that provides an incomplete picture. For example, both the articles on the Holodomor and the Great Chinese Famine gave perspectives of scholars that contested the notion that these are deliberate killings, and yet their views are not covered here at all. These incidences are quite different from cases such as the Cambodian Genocide, which was found by a court of law to be deliberate genocide. In contrast, the article on Anti-communist mass killings simply lists the various incidences without any commentary.

In consideration, I think the article could need a rewrite, include the perspectives of the authors who contest the mass killings labels, minimize the quotes and commentaries, and focus on factual evidence such as the death numbers, media reports etc. I also believe that some of the material, especially third party, commentary would find a better home at Criticisms of communist party rule.60.242.159.224 (talk) 10:31, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the previous contributor. I believe this article should be junked - I mean its just ridiculous - are we going to have an article on say, Buddhist mass killings, Catholic mass killings, Capitalist mass killings, Feudal mass killings etc. It's just completely absurd that this article should exist at all - unless one is an anti-communist agenda driven fanatic, like Mr Griffin.

If the article must exist, perspectives must be provided from all sides of the issue, not just those who pass muster with Mr Griffin.

Prairespark (talk) 15:36, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Praire, I am always glad to see new people edit wp. you have shed some light on the practices of other editors here, specifically those who agree with your ideology. they often claim to be objective, yet when someone with a different view as you, breaks as many rules as you have, they try to have the editor banned. yet your violations have gone on without incident. i will not report your edits, and encourage you to continue to contribute to this and other articles. Darkstar1st (talk) 17:18, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Your comments are offensive, you have refused to retract them and I have started a discussion thread at ANI.[3] TFD (talk) 07:03, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Your link points to the ani you started on: 30 December 2010, is there a new ani as well? prairie re-inserted the same material for the 4th time again yesterday, and no action is taken against him, yet i point out his error, and i get the ani? Darkstar1st (talk) 16:51, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Prairespark has been confirmed as a vandal and sock-puppeteer. I recommend all his "contributions" to this talk page be removed, especially his personal attacks against me.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 21:25, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Prairespark has not been confirmed as a vandal. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 18:03, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough Petri, what is the word for someone who keeps resubmitting the same material without consensus on the talk page, and breaking the 1 rr? Darkstar1st (talk) 18:26, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Tendentious editor. Since Prairespark was blocked after the postings, they should not be deleted but may be hidden, since no one is discussing them. TFD (talk) 18:33, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

On the other hand, I've seen very little evidence of anyone really discussing much on this talk page recently: merely the endless repetition of the same old tired points. If the article was actually about a real subject, as opposed to a dubious POV synthesis, one would expect new sources and outside input to be arriving. They aren't. Somebody wrote a book. Right-wingers (or at least some of them) agreed with it, because it supposedly showed they were right. Left-wingers (or at least some of them) disagreed with it, because it couldn't be correct, because then they'd be wrong. Nobody seems to care much about the victims of alleged 'mass killings' anyway, unless they can be used to score points. No discussion of real people, or real events. No attempt to go beyond the 'reliable sources' one prefers. No sense of history. Regardless of exactly how many people died, and for what reasons, they deserve better than this. Either accept that cold-war posturing is a little past its sell-by date, or actually try to look at events without resorting to vacuous stereotypes. Somewhere in this 'article' is a real one trying to get out, but the simplistic binary good/evil approach adopted by too many obscures more than it explains. Try to move on. Or if you can't do this, then do the decent thing, and let the victims rest in peace. AndyTheGrump (talk) 07:44, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

The aricle connects the Russian civil war and Pol Pot's genocide in order to support the position of American isolationism and European collabortion. TFD (talk) 03:48, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Regardless of whether Prairespark is a sockpuppet or not, he has made some excellent points. I think his edits some justification and in fact improve the article because they show both sides of the debate. Wikipedia is not a place for C. J. Griffin to simply push his own ideological agenda. An encyclopedia article simply serves to point out the facts and then present the different interpretations of those facts which are out there. It is not a place for cold war pamphleteers like C. J. Griffin.

I do think the cannibalism part of the article under Cultural Revolution should be taken out - as this was an extremely rare event, (out of a population of 800 million, and was not condoned by the Central authorities, less alone ordered by them. Furthermore it is well known that the vast majority of the deaths in the Cultural Revolution came about through factional infighting, the casualties were basically battle casaulties, not victims of mass execution. Hence I do not believe that reference to the Cultural Revolution belongs in the article at all. The Great Leap Forward also does not need mentioning. The famine was unintended, and if one considers it to be a communist 'mass killing', then using the same standard Churchill is a mass killer because of the Bengal famine, and Nehru is a mass killer because of the millions of Indians who died of hunger and disease under him, over and above in numbers those who died under the socialist system in China.

However for the time being I will just remove the Cultural Revolution section, and replace the lede with what prairespark proposed above.

Whether or not the Great Leap Forward remains in the article can be determined by further debate.

Paramanami (talk) 09:17, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Starvation before communism, by way of contrast. In 1920 more than 15 million Chinese died of starvation. Rick Norwood (talk) 13:23, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

External link to the Global Museum on Communism

The external link to the Global Museum on Communism[4] should be removed from this article because it fails external links. See Links normally to be avoided:

Except for a link to an official page of the article's subject, one should generally avoid:

• 2.Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research, except to a limited extent in articles about the viewpoints that the site is presenting.
• 13.Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject: the link should be directly related to the subject of the article. A general site that has information about a variety of subjects should usually not be linked to from an article on a more specific subject. Similarly, a website on a specific subject should usually not be linked from an article about a general subject. If a section of a general website is devoted to the subject of the article, and meets the other criteria for linking, then that part of the site could be deep linked.
• 19.Links to websites of organizations mentioned in an article – unless they otherwise qualify as something that should be linked or considered.

The most obvious reason not to include is (19) - the site has its own article and the link should be there. (2) applies because the site is not scholarly or neutral. (13) applies because the site is not directly about mass killings under Communist regimes.

The issue was brought to the EL noticeboard before.[5] The editor who restored the deletion of this link stated that it "seems a proper external link - does not fail WP:EL for sure".[6] He appears to have forgotten the previous discussion.

TFD (talk) 02:39, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Try citing the EL standards: Is the site content accessible to the reader? Is the site content proper in the context of the article (useful, tasteful, informative, factual, etc.)? Is the link functional and likely to remain functional? To which the answers are all "yes." The site is not commercial, not a "fan site", and in fact represents an organization chartered by Act of Congress, presenting factual material to readers. Further, this has been discussed many times now, and the result has been the same every single time. The site is not only government sanctioned, it has information relevant to the article. Which, oddly enough, is the primary criterion for an external site! Unless, of course, you assert that an organization charted by the Congress is offering intentionally misleading material? But that was already dismissed in the past - so there is no leg to stand on there. The Global Museum on Communism is a project of the non-profit, non-partisan Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, established by an Act of Congress on December 17, 1993 and signed into law by President Bill Clinton. seems fairly reputable, I would say. Collect (talk) 02:47, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

This very obviously fails WP:ELNO because it is "only indirectly related to the article's subject". Since the article has no other external links, it is also fails WP:ELPOV. Typical of Collect to get appears to have amnesia about a recently established consensus. --FormerIP (talk) 03:11, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Aha -- so references to "millions of victims" clearly have no relationship to Communist excess deaths? Interesting take, that! BTW, your personal asides do not belong on any talk page on Wikipedia. I ask you redact such. Thank you most kindly. Collect (talk) 03:18, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

My pleasure. --FormerIP (talk) 03:35, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Apparently this material:

The breakdown of the number of deaths is as follows:

65 million in the People's Republic of China

20 million in the Soviet Union

2 million in Cambodia

2 million in North Korea

1.7 million in Africa

1.5 million in Afghanistan

1 million in the Communist states of Eastern Europe

1 million in Vietnam

150,000 in Latin America

10,000 deaths resulting from actions of the international communist movement and communist parties not in power.

Has nothing to do with this article. Nor does this:

The VOCMF has a three-phase mission:

The 1st phase of the mission, to memorialize the victims of communism, was realized with the dedication of the Victims of Communism Memorial in Washington, DC on June 12, 2007.

The 2nd phase of the mission, to educate the public, has been initiated with the launch of the Global Museum on Communism on June 16th 2009.

The 3rd phase of the mission, to document the evidence, is to be realized with the eventual construction of a permanent self-standing 'bricks and mortar' museum in Washington DC.

Nor does this:

Welcome to The Global Museum on Communism, an international portal created to honor the more than 100 million victims of communist tyranny and educate future generations about past and present communist atrocities.

None of this has any relevance to this article. Eh? Collect (talk) 03:23, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

(ec, a few now) I really fail to see how it fails. As an obvious parallel, the U.S. Holocaust Museum was also established by an act of Congress, no one has a problem citing it as a source on victims of Nazism. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 03:30, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

And I don't remember any consensus about non-inclusion, only editors advocating there was a consensus who wished to (my perception) suppress it as a source. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 03:32, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

There's a consensus in that multiple editors were against it and one editor was in favour. Of course, consensus can change, but ignoring the discussion and reverting anyway is not good form. --FormerIP (talk) 03:37, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

"Any relevance" is not the criterion. The content of the site is "only indirectly related" to the alleged academic discourse that is the subject of this article (i.e. it is not a site about "mass killings"). In any event, it also fails WP:ELPOV, as stated above. --FormerIP (talk) 03:35, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

The link is entirely relevant to this article and as such I have restored it. Tentontunic (talk) 08:15, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

RfC: External link to the Global Museum on Communism

Should the article Mass killings under Communist regimes contain an external link to the Global Museum on Communism website? TFD (talk) 23:19, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

• No. Inclusion of the link is a violation of external links. The specific problems are (1) we should not have links to sites where there is already an article about the organization, (2) the external site is not about "mass killings under communist regimes". but about the horrors of Communism in general, and (3) the site presents a specific non-mainstream point of view, viz., it presents as fact that Communism killed over 100 million people, while this article presents that number as an extreme upward estimate dismissed by mainstream writers, and the organization is run by Lee Edwards, the self-desribed historian of the American Right (who does not write for an academic audience) and has been involved in a number of extreme anti-Communist organizations. The relevant section of WP:EL says:

Links normally to be avoided:

Except for a link to an official page of the article's subject, one should generally avoid:

• 2.Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research, except to a limited extent in articles about the viewpoints that the site is presenting.
• 13.Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject: the link should be directly related to the subject of the article. A general site that has information about a variety of subjects should usually not be linked to from an article on a more specific subject. Similarly, a website on a specific subject should usually not be linked from an article about a general subject. If a section of a general website is devoted to the subject of the article, and meets the other criteria for linking, then that part of the site could be deep linked.
• 19.Links to websites of organizations mentioned in an article – unless they otherwise qualify as something that should be linked or considered.

TFD (talk) 23:19, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

• Yes Non-commercial site with official Congressional charter with material relating to deaths under Communist regimes. I would also support a link to a non-commerical site saying no deaths occurred, as long as readers were helped. The purpose of any EL is to help readers, period. As for making judgements on who the director is (clearly anyone with an opinion on one side is OK, but people with the "wrong" opinion become grounds for rejection of a site? I did not find that in the policies or guidelines, so that issue is not even valid to raise here. And I would ask that you not issue judgements about anyone at all being a member of an "extreme anti-Communist organization" without strong WP:BLP level sourcing. Collect (talk) 23:32, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

The main "extreme anti-Communist organization" was the World Anti-Communist League, "founded in 1966... under the initiative of Chiang Kai-shek. [The U.S. chapter]... was placed under watch by the Anti-Defamation League, which said that the organization had increasingly become "a point of contact for extremists, racists, and anti-Semites"." TFD (talk) 00:25, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Eh? The ADL did not say "everyone in that organization is a racist, extremist, anti-semite" at all. Yet you think that is sufficient for labelling a person as "involved with extreme anti-communist organizations"? Sorry - it fails the smell test for WP:BLP Collect (talk) 01:26, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Note further that the ADL has cleared that organization. One ought not elide that fact. Collect (talk) 01:35, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

• No. The link would clearly violate WP:EL, as already noted. To give any prominence to a site pushing such a fringe outlook would also violate WP:NPOV. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:34, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
• fringe? President George W. Bush addresses his remarks Tuesday, June 12, 2007, at the dedication ceremony for the Victims of Communism Memorial in Washington, D.C Darkstar1st (talk) 01:07, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Whether it is fringe or not as a source is not the point. --FormerIP (talk) 01:33, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

• No. As discussed above, it isn't in line with WP:EL and particularly WP:ELPOV. --FormerIP (talk) 01:33, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
  • • Just provide a link with another POV - where only one link is provided, it is pretty clear that this is not a veto power because the other side chooses to keep all links out. Collect (talk) 01:36, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Who's choosing to keep all links out? If you can find a balanced selection of links for inclusion, that might change the whole situation. --FormerIP (talk) 01:40, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I have repeatedly asked for other links. If only one link is provided by anyone, then using it is not violating any policies. Just add one with a distinctly different POV if you feel this particular link has an evil POV. But attacking the people running the site is silly. Collect (talk) 01:46, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't think the guideline really cares who finds balancing links just so long as they are found. I'm pretty sure it doesn't cease to apply just because you have asked other editors to deal with the problem for you, though.

In any event, as you can see from the above, ELPOV isn't the only issue, even though it might be the most significant one. --FormerIP (talk) 02:02, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Yep - the fact that a person is somehow an "extreme racist fascist" seems key here :). I did not provide this link, but I dang sure feel deleting it because those who dislike it will not provide another link is quite against WP principles. Collect (talk) 02:10, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I think the key WP principle here is WP:BATTLEGROUND. It isn't up to other editors to parry your assault. What matters is the resulting content conforms to policy. A single EL with a clear POV doesn't do that, so find some others that could go with it. --FormerIP (talk) 02:23, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

• Comment This seems like a pretty trivial issue for an RfC....? In reviewing WP:ELPOV, it does seem to bear on this question. BigK HeX (talk) 02:39, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
• Yes. As much as I dislike adding yet more non-outside editor opinion to a RfC which is supposed to solicit input from uninvolved editors, there are a few points I think need to be made. Some objections to the use of this site an an external link in this article are not actual violations of WP:EL:

1) "we should not have links to sites where there is already an article about the organization". This reason is not even one of the items on the WP:ELNO list and seems to refer instead to the irrelevant issue of whether to use an external link or a wikilink for a term in the body of an article.

2) "the site presents a specific non-mainstream point of view". Even if this characterization were accurate, which it is not, it would qualify the link as one "to be considered" and therefore does not justify removal.

The possible actual violations of External links to avoid so far raised are the following:

1) Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research, except to a limited extent in articles about the viewpoints that the site is presenting. This has not been shown to apply. The onus is on the accuser to show that this is the case. The site has contributions from many reliable academics and scholars:[7][8][9][10].

2) Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject: the link should be directly related to the subject of the article. A general site that has information about a variety of subjects should usually not be linked to from an article on a more specific subject. The link is directly related to the article's subject but the information is organized by country. The site as a whole, however, is about those killed under Communism as a whole, which is why linking to the main page, rather than to the individual country pages, is most appropriate.

3) On articles with multiple points of view, avoid providing links too great in number or weight to one point of view, or that give undue weight to minority views. Add comments to these links informing the reader of their point of view. A single link is not a case of "too great a number of links". This justification, then, argues not for removing the link but for altering its presentation. AmateurEditor (talk) 03:16, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

• No It seems like the discussion is tending toward including the link in the context of other external links, which I would support. TimidGuy (talk) 12:03, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
• Yes The link to the Global Museum on Communism is entirely within the article scope. Tentontunic (talk) 12:06, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
• Yes Obviously related. Please remember "Wikipedia is not censored." Just because people dislike what a mainstream source says doesn't mean that it is "fringe" or can be removed. Smallbones (talk) 13:51, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
• Yes. It seems like a reasonable link. I am aware of WP:EL, but we can be a little bit flexible when it comes to external links. All we are saying to the reader is "Here is a link. It has something to say about the general subject. We don't certify that anything there is correct. All we are certifying is that its something that reasonable people might find interesting". Herostratus (talk) 17:50, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
• No. In addition to the WP:EL points raised by TFD, I would also like to add WP:ELPOV. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 22:06, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Was the Hungarian Revolution a "communist mass killing"?

I am unaware of any scholars calling the 1956 Hungarian Revolution a communist mass killing. But Darkstar1st is asserting that it was.

Were the Hungarian killed in the Soviet response to Hungary's violent revolution victims of a mass killing?

At Mass killing, I'm only finding a bunch of links to Genocide, Mass destruction, and Mass murder. How are mass killings defined? Was the Hungarian Revolution a mass killing? (If so, was the counter-revolutionary Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War yet another episode of mass killing?) Zloyvolsheb (talk) 03:09, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Do we have a source that calls it a Communist mass killing? It seems to be more an act of war or counter-insurgency, and the scale was too small. TFD (talk) 03:29, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

"Scale was too small"? [11] and Hungary is not a huge nation. And calling the legal government of Hungary "insurgent" is absurd. Nagy invaded no one. Overthrew no one. But one can call it a "counter insurgency"? Only if one calls the Soviet troops the lawful government :) Collect (talk) 09:16, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

here is a photo of the pre-teen "insurgents" http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Budapest-Boys-from-Twelve-to-Late-Teens-Carrying-Rifles-Fighting-During-Hungarian-Revolution-Posters_i4921483_.htm?aid=95620932&DestType=7&Referrer=http://hungarian-revolution.purzuit.com/ Darkstar1st (talk) 09:46, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

To suggest that the Soviet military intervention in Hungary was 'counter-insurgency' is absurd. That anyone should advance such arguments seems to me to demonstrate just how ridiculous this debate has become. Rather than discussing the supposed article topic, people are now looking for ways to add or subtract 'killings' to support their POV. This is propaganda, plain and simple - as indeed is the entire article topic. The idea that whole swathes of history (and the lives of millions) can be reduced to a 'scorecard', and then used to 'demonstrate' the evils of a supposed political program (never explicitly discussed in the article, which almost implies that the objective of 'communism' was mass murder), is not only absurd, but offensive. Likewise, to try to portray the overthrow by Soviet military force of the legitimate government of Hungary as some sort of police action is also ridiculous. This whole 'good' vs 'evil' comic-book analysis of history should have no place in a legitimate encyclopaedia. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:30, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Andy. While all of the information belongs in the individual country or system articles, the rationale for this article would also support "scorecard" articles for "Capitalism and mass killings" (we could even work the U.S. Civil War into this one), "Catholicism and mass killings" (remember St. Bartholemew!) and "Insert ethnic group, religion or political system of your choice here and mass killings".Jonathanwallace (talk) 12:09, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Valentino, who is the only writer to use the term "Communist mass killings" distinguishes between them and "Counterguerilla mass killings" ("The effort to defeat guerilla insurgencies").[12] He puts the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan into the latter group. It seems to me that the Soviet invasion of Hungary had greater similarity to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan than it does to actions of Soviet governments against its own people. The invasion of foreign states is not unique to Communism. In fact some non-Communist states have also invaded foreign countries. TFD (talk) 14:45, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Piled higher and deeper? So you would assert that the Soviet Union was the rightful government of Hungary, and Nagy was an "insurgent"? (noting you have not withdrawn the assertion that Hungarian deaths were due to "counter-insurgency"). Collect (talk) 15:01, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Trying to step back from the increasingly heated discussion. The fact this comes up at all indicates how woolly and poorly thought out this article is. "Mass killing" is such a large, ill-defined category, it can arguably include killings of soldiers during wartime (which do or do not violate Geneva conventions), killing of civilians in your own country, and of civilians in other people's countries (in peace or in wartime). The most narrow useful definition for this article would probably be "killing of civilians in your own country" and would cover the allegations about the USSR, China, Cambodia, etc. Hungary (forgetting the not very useful "insurgency" concept) is an example of "killing civilians in someone else's country during a military invasion". If we keep the field this broad, then "Democracy and mass killing" would also include discussions of the bombings of Hiroshima and Dresden, use of pilotless drones, cluster bombs and huge munitions in Iraq and Afghanistan today and all that good stuff. In cases like this, the broader the article, the less useful it is. Such topics are probably better discussed in narrower articles. Genocides in history has problems of its own, but at least is not titled "Mass killings by governments".Jonathanwallace (talk) 17:32, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Collect, I think you have got ahold of the wrong end of the stick. Deaths that resulted from the Soviet invasion of Hungary should be considered deaths that resulted from the Soviet invasion of Hungary because Hungary was not part of the Soviet Union. TFD (talk) 22:26, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I have tried to deal with your precise words. First the revolution deaths were "counter insurgency" deaths. That did not fly. Now you seem to say the people executed by the Soviet-installed government after the Soviets seized power are not "mass deaths under a communist government" because the Soviets were not the government of Hungary? I rather think that an executed person sorta blames the people in charge and does not think "Oh well - this is just a military death from an invasion." YMMV. Collect (talk) 23:05, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Collect, do you think that the killings were motivated by Communist ideology or were they part of extraterritorial aggression? TFD (talk) 23:43, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Collect, it's really, really beside the point to give in to speculations like whether the "executed person sorta blames the people in charge and does not think 'Oh well - this is just a military death from an invasion.'"

My original question was what does and does not count as a "mass killing". Is it several thousand, several hundred, or several dozen people? Do we include wartime deaths, deaths from insurrections and from rebellions? The previous consensus (if we can even call it that) has been that scholarly sources specifically referring to certain events as "mass killings" will suffice as WP:RS those events as instances of mass killing, but attempts at paranormal communication with the dead (accordingly) will not. Benjamin Valentino characterizes a mass killing as the intentional killing of 50,000 or more innocent people during five years. Which seems to particularly rule out the Hungarian Revolution.

Of course, that's Valentino's view, and it's rather interesting that we have an article on Mass killings under Communist regimes, but no proper article on Mass killing (just a short disambiguation page). At any rate, we should at least stick to relying on actual scholars, and not try to ask the dead or engage in other forms of WP:OR. Please stick to WP:V. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 23:49, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Since the current article is based mostly on the Valentino's views (according to him, "dispossessive mass killings", e.g. famine deaths, etc are considered as mass killings), we must stick with his definition of mass killings, so 50,000 is definitely a threshold. In addition, all combatants should be excluded.

Regarding your notion about "mass killing" (in general), the ambiguation page creates an impression that the interpretation of this term in Wikipedia is much stricter unless it is not applied to Communism. That is a serious big neutrality issue, which should be addressed in close future. In particular, I cannot understand why all general consideration about terminology should be here, not in the "Mass killing" article.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:01, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

The reason we only have this mass killings article is that the article was original created by User talk:Joklolk who has been permanently banned as a troll, and called "Communist genocide". When the article was nominated for deletion because it was original research, editors decided to change the title. While we have an issue about what constitutes mass killings, we also have an issue as to what constitutes communist mass killings. Communists mass killings are not just mass killings by Communists, otherwise this article would be pure synthesis, but mass killings that are somehow different from mass killings by people with other ideologies. TFD (talk) 04:20, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

This is not true, and I have pointed this out to you before. The move discussion started ten days before the AfD, being in two parts here and here The move discussion closed and the article was moved on 24 (or 25 depending upon time zone) September 2009, on the same day as the AfD was opened [13]. What I find amazing is that you fully participated in the move discussion so I don't know how you can claim it came after the AfD. --Martin (talk) 09:16, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

"Nexus article" requires re-work and sourcing

This is effectively a "nexus" article about the connection between Communism and murder, yet (as Andy points out in the previous section) skips any discussion of the actual connection, assuming we all understand it. A "nexus" article should illustrate that the connection itself is notable. That is why we don't have "Mass killings on Tuesdays". (See also the very funny Judaism and bus stops deletion discussion.) As it happens, the Communism/Mass killing nexus is notable, but the article never bothers to establish notability. It would become encyclopedic if recast as an article on the work of notable historians, sociologists etc. who have examined the Communism/mass killing nexus. Specific country examples would then come in through their work. There is no lack of such sources on many of the examples mentioned. FWIW, articles on "capitalism and mass killing", "democracy and mass killing" and so forth could be similarly sourced. History is "indeed, little more than the register of the crimes, follies, and misfortunes of mankind. " Gibbon. Jonathanwallace (talk) 13:05, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Note Anti-communist mass killings and its edit history, especially those adding material to that article. Collect (talk) 13:21, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I'll take a look. BTW, I note your interest in WP:ADVOCACY articles from your talk page. I think this one fits the bill, because of its failure to focus on the work of notable historians and sociologists. in other words, instead of properly reporting on advocacy, it skips that step and becomes the advocacy itself.Jonathanwallace (talk) 13:35, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

(Collect--I segregated this as a new section and made some hopefully nonsubstantive changes to my first comment to clarify that. Since you had already replied, I'm mentioning it because such edits are disfavored if they undermine the sense of the replies. I think I avoided that here.) Also wanted to mention that the article lede, "Study has been made of states that have declared adherence to some form of Communist doctrine, and have killed significant numbers of people or facilitated their deaths" is a perfect example of weasel words. Jonathanwallace (talk) 13:44, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

The prior lede was not weaselly - this one was produced by [14], [15], [16] (sock edit), and such edits as [17], [18], [19] and especially such edits as [20]. There have been eight AfDs on the article (under two names) so that part is pretty much settled as a non-starter (last one was a very strong "keep" result). Collect (talk) 14:11, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, not really arguing it should be AFD'd, just intelligently fixed. Anyway, this has all inspired me to try writing an essay on "notability in nexus articles" where a preposition connects two concepts. Jonathanwallace (talk) 17:21, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

@ Collect: If the only lede that is acceptable to contributors is one that suggests that an article is promoting a minority viewpoint based on a dubious synthesis, shouldn't we take this as a sign that it actually is one?

@ Jonathanwallace. That sounds like a very useful essay: let me know if you want my input. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:28, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Andy--yes, I will let you know as soon as I have a draft in userspace.Jonathanwallace (talk) 17:34, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Before you devote your time in improving this article, you should read through the discussions which have been archived. TFD (talk) 06:12, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't think either Jonathanwallace or I are suggesting an essay on this specific topic: the problem is much more endemic in Wikipedia. Frankly, I've more or less given this mess up as a lost cause, and see the solution in actually changing the criteria (or at least the attitude) for what makes an article acceptable to be more worthwhile than in engaging in the sort of pointless Wikilawyering and endless going over the same grounds that we see here. It looks more like a role-playing game than a debate about encyclopaedia content, and while it is using the deaths of millions as fodder for debate, I'd rather not play along. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:43, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

This is not paraphrasing

I strongly object to this revert by Tentontunic [21].

Valentino does not state "some Eastern European and African countries". He writes that mass killings by communists occured "Eastern Europe and Africa." It's common knowledge that there were mass killings in the USSR (which can be taken to include various of Eastern European countries) and in Ethiopia, but nobody has been able to point out where else they occured. The article does not discuss any mass killings in Africa outside of Ethiopia; it's likely that Mengistu's Red Terror is the only example of mass killing under a communist regime in Africa.

But the word "some" is synonymous with "a few" and therefore strongly implies something to the effect that mutliple African regimes carried out mass killings. That isn't claimed by Valentino, and Tentontunic's (and AmteurEditor's) edits cannot perforce be regarded as a valid paraphrase. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 21:48, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Fixed, which is really what you ought to have done. Tentontunic (talk) 22:11, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for being a gentleman and fixing that ever-so-politely. You, know it is rather hard to fix things yourself when people revert you while the article is on 1RR. Meanwhile, please list the Eastern European countries where scholars say communist mass killings occured. Otherwise, we should revert back to my version. As I originally pointed out, saying "Eastern European countries" and "Africa" is helplessly vague, since "Eastern European countries" may well mean the USSR. And since the only African state where there was an African Red Terror was Ethiopia, we can refer to Mengistu's Ethiopia in place of "Africa". Zloyvolsheb (talk) 22:21, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

However Mengistu's Red Terror is the only example of mass killing Then this means there are two? Thus the original statement would have been correct, we ought to in fact add Mengistu's Red Terror to the article? Is this what you are in fact stating? Tentontunic (talk) 22:15, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand what you're talking about. What do you refer to by "two"? You do realize that Ethiopia is in Africa, right? Zloyvolsheb (talk) 22:21, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Terribly sorry, I made an error in my geography. An normal edit would not have been an issue I am sure, I made mention of this on your talk page I believe? Tentontunic (talk) 22:53, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I have restored Eastern European, for I am quite sure that the USSR contained quite a large chunk of it. Tentontunic (talk) 20:59, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Why? We already mention the USSR in the lede - so it's pretty redundant, isn't it? It reads: The highest death tolls that have been calculated are in the People's Republic of China under Mao, the Soviet Union under Stalin, and in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge'. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 21:03, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Because we ought to point out were the killings occurred, and a great many happened within Eastern Europe. Tentontunic (talk) 21:13, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

But they happened in Eastern Europe in the USSR (under Stalin). Do you not see the redundancy? Zloyvolsheb (talk) 21:41, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Tens of millions, not millions butchered

Anyone with the vaguest grasp of twentieth century history knows that this is the case. So why is Wikipedia pretending otherwise? Has it become so grotesquely propagandised by the totalitarian left? Jprw (talk) 18:29, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Change it to the smallest and largest estimates, that ought to be satisfactory to all and it is of course WP:NPOV Tentontunic (talk) 18:32, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Can anyone explain why a Wiki "grotesquely propagandised by the totalitarian left" would have an article entitled "Mass killings under Communist regimes"? AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:40, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Because totalitarian leftists will not allow this article to be titled Red Final Solution or The Red Holocaust. Also, I'm not sure that being a famine victim under, say, Mao's crappy agricultural policy really counts as "being butchered" but whatever, I'm patriotic and don't want to sound like a liberal-leftist-hippy. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 20:24, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Since the google.scholar gives just 5 results for "Red Final Solution" [22], and all of them are chemical articles, and just 65 for "Red Holocaust" [23], these two terms are definitely fringe. A possible explanation is that Western scholars are predominantly totalitarian leftists...

Interestingly, one of those sources (Norman Rich. Central European History Vol. 37, No. 2, 2004 ) states that "However horrendous the crimes of communism were, there never was a Red Holocaust ". I think, that statement should be added to the article. --Paul Siebert (talk) 04:52, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Tens of millions lost their lives in various episodes of mass killings by these regimes...

I encourage newcomers to read the talk page where this issue has already been discussed. Whereas the fact that tens of millions lost their lives prematurely under Communist regimes (mostly as a result of civil wars, famines or diseases) is indisputable, only small part of scholars characterise all these events as mass killings. As a rule, only such events as Kampuchean genocide, Great Purge, or Ciltural revolution are characterised as mass killings. However, they caused million, not tens of millions deaths. I already explained that on this talk page before. I suggest to self-revert the recent changes in the sentence quited above, and to discuss the lede on the talk page first. If the change will not be self reverted, I'll revert it, and any other attempt to restore the current wording without a consensus will be considered as edit warring.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:46, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Given the fact that almost ten million died in the enforced famine in the Ukraine alone (I presume that we can all agree that this qualifies as a mass killing) I would suggest that it is nonsensical and deeply misrepresentative to be discussing mass deaths under communism in terms of millions and not tens of millions. This is indisputable; therefore "Tens of millions lost their lives etc." should remain as being perfectly reasonable, accurate and non-problematic. From the introduction to Robert Conquest's Harvest of Sorrow:

Fifty years ago as I write these words, the Ukraine and the Ukrainian, Cossack and other areas to its east -- a great stretch of territory with some forty million inhabitants -- was like one vast Belsen. A quarter of the rural population, men, women and children, lay dead or dying, the rest in various stages of debilitation with no strength to bury their families or neighbours. At the same time, (as at Belsen), well-fed squads of police or party officials supervised the victims.

I can't believe that we actually need to be arguing this. Jprw (talk) 08:15, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Paul Siebert, to say only millions died prematurely under communist regimes is obviously false. Given Stalin alone is held to account for some twenty million we are already into "tens of millions" after all. It would be far easier and NPOV to cite both the high and low figures bandied about. Tentontunic (talk) 08:27, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, we cannot. What we have is: during Kampuchean genocide (the only officially recognised genocide committed by the regime that identified itself as Communist) ca 2 millions were killed. During the Great Purge 0.7 million were executed; a total amount of killed was ca 1.2 millions. By contrast, the amount of people who died prematurely under during the Stalin regime (famine and deportation deaths, camp mortality, diseases, etc) is 15-20 million, and we can speak about tens of millions. However, most scholars do not describe those deaths as mass killings. Accordingly, we can speak about tens of millions victims, but only small part of them belongs to the lede, because the article describes famines in a controversy section. The lede must reflect what the article says, and all these arguments have already been presented on this talk page.

I again propose you to self-revert and remind you that the article is under 1RR. --Paul Siebert (talk) 13:42, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

I have no need to self revert, please look at the articles history. How do "Most scholars" describe Stalins actions then? I have certainly seen his actions described as genocide. For instance Stalin's Genocides Norman M. Naimark. Princeton University Press (19 July 2010 ISBN 978-0691147840 Tentontunic (talk) 08:24, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Was the famine in the Ukraine (let me remind you again, one single incident from 1932-33, which possibly claimed upwards of 10 million lives) under communism a mass killing or not? Jprw (talk) 15:06, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Likely a "counter-insurgency"? Collect (talk) 15:11, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Even the Black Book of Communism (not the most leftist sources) estimates the number of the victims in the USSR to be around 15 million (of course, I mean not the notorious Courtois' introduction, but the chapter written by Nicolas Werth, the least controversial part of the book; btw, Werth did not support main Courtois' claims). This included Holodomor and other events. Regarding the famine of 1932-33, the number of 10 million is disputable. Estimates range between ca 3 and ca 10 million (the article currently says 6-8 million). In addition, it is not correct to claim that all of those victims were just starved to death, a considerable part of victims died from typhoid fever, from other diseases exacerbated by malnutrition and poor sanitary conditions. And, most importantly, although the fact that these deaths did occur in indisputable, these events are not described as mass killings by most scholars.
Again, the edits you Jprw made contradict to what the reliable sources (and the article) say. They must be reverted immediately, and after that we can continue our discussion.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:26, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Do you think the holocaust qualifies as a mass killing? Jprw (talk) 17:25, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Are you going to self-revert? Re Naimark's "genocide", other scholars, e.g., Ellman, clearly state that there is no sufficient ground to speak about strictly defined genocide. With regard loosely defined genocide, this term is applicable to so wide range of events that its usage simply become senseless. I request you to self-revert.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:30, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Then the deaths in the Soviet Death Camps (let's leave out China and North Korea for the moment) also qualify as a mass killing? Jprw (talk) 06:02, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

According to Steven Wheatcroft (the source is cited in the article), there were no death camps in the Soviet Union.--Paul Siebert (talk) 06:35, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

They were in effect death camps, as you surely must realise. Just as the famine in the Ukraine was in effect a gigantic Belsen, supervised and facilitated by the State under direct orders from Stalin (he even admitted it to Churchill at Yalta). So the deaths in the Gulag, a system set up and supervised by the Soviet State, can also qualify as a mass killing. Or is it a case of "all deaths are equal, but some deaths are more equal than others" (i.e., if you die in a Nazi death camp you're part of a mass killing, but if you die in a Soviet death camp, you're not). Another question for you – do you think that holocaust victims who died from diseases brought on by malnutrition and poor sanitary conditions should not count among the 6 million who died? Jprw (talk) 06:53, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Re "They were in effect death camps" That is what you say. Reliable sources available for me contradict to this your conclusion.

Re "if you die in a Nazi death camp you're part of a mass killing, but if you die in a Soviet death camp, you're not" Please, read the article: Stephen Wheatcroft. The Scale and Nature of German and Soviet Repression and Mass Killings, 1930–45. Europe-Asia Studies, Vol. 48, No. 8 (Dec., 1996), pp. 1319–1353. He analysed this issue in details, and concluded that the difference was very significant.--Paul Siebert (talk) 08:00, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

For your convenience, I provide the extended quote from this source:

"The nature of Soviet repression and mass killing was clearly far more complex than normally assumed. Mass purposive killings in terms of executions were probably in the order of one million and probably as large as the total number of recorded deaths in the Gulag. In this narrowest category of purposefully caused deaths, the situation is exactly the opposite to that generally accepted. Hitler caused the murder of at least 5 million innocent people largely, it would appear, because he did not like Jews and communists. Stalin by contrast can be charged with causing the purposive death of something in the order of a million people. Furthermore the purposive deaths caused by Hitler fit more closely into the category of 'murder', while those caused by Stalin fit more closely the category of 'execution'. Stalin undoubtedly caused many innocent people to be executed, but it seems likely that he thought many of them guilty of crimes against the state and felt that the execution of others would act as a deterent to the guilty. He signed the papers and insisted on documentation. Hitler, by contrast, wanted to be rid of the Jews and communists simply because they were Jews and communists. He was not concerned about making any pretence at legality. He was careful not to sign anything on this matter and was equally insistent on no documentation"

"The Gulag was neither as large nor as deadly as it is often presented, it was not a death camp, although in cases of general food shortage (1932-33 and 1942-43) it would suffer significantly more than the population at large. There were not 12 million deaths in the camps as suggested by Maier; and it seems highly unlikely that there were as many as 7 million deaths between 1935 and 1941 as claimed by Conquest citing Mikoyan's son. With a maximum number of inmates of 1.5 million in 1941 the Gulag was nevertheless of demographic significance and more than twenty times as large as the prewar Nazi concentration camp system at its peak following Kristallnacht. But all the same, twenty times as large as pre-war Nazi concentration camps does not make anything like Auschwitz."

Please, note, that the quote has been taken from the reliable secondary source, which was written by a reputable scholar and published in the high level peer-reviewed scholarly journal. You cannot reject these conclusions just based on what you read in obsolete books or popular web sites.--Paul Siebert (talk) 08:11, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Paul Siebert, to say there were no Soviet death cams is also incorrect. Sakwa, Richard The rise and fall of the Soviet Union, 1917-1991. Routledge; 1et edition 17 Jun 1999 ISBN 978-0415122900 p232. Kun, Miklós Stalin: an unknown portrait. Central European University Press 1 March 2003 ISBN 978-9639241190 pX. Vizinczey, Stephen Truth and Lies in Literature: Essays and Reviews University of Chicago Press New edition 1 Feb 1988 ISBN 978-0226858845 p307, this took all of two minutes to find. I still await a response to my reply to your question above. Tentontunic (talk) 08:24, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

You should address these your arguments not to me, but to Wheatcroft. Please, take into account that many books written before 1990 (and some of those written later) do not take into account the data from declassified Soviet archives and similar documents, and, therefore, are based on obsolete and inaccurate earlier estimates, which contain dramatically inflated figures.--Paul Siebert (talk) 08:31, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Paul Siebert, you are the one stating there were no Soviet death camps. I believe you have just been proved wrong. I will also point out to you that two of the books presented above were printed after 1990. Please do not assign undue weight to one scholars opinion. Tentontunic (talk) 09:03, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

There were no death camps, Tentontunic. The writers who employ the locution "death camps" to describe the Soviet Gulag camps are using hyperbole—ie, they are not to be taken literally. More careful scholars do take the pains to point out the distinction and explicitly mention that there were no extermination or death camps ([24]). E.g., Professor Daniel Chirot, who writes about both Nazi and Soviet brutalities in Modern Tyrants: The Power and Influence of Evil in Our Age (Princeton University Press, 1996)

The stories that subsequently came out of the prisons and camps show how much sadism and wanton cruelty there was on the part of the police interrogators, and within the camps, by the guards. As in Nazi Germany, the trips to the camps were themselves nightmares of overcrowding, famine, and thirst, with many perishing on the way. Nevertheless, these were not death camps as were the German ones, because there was no plan to systematically exterminate all the prisoners.

Zloyvolsheb (talk) 16:59, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Gulag A History by Anne Applebaum (2003) is also an excellent and important overview of the Gulag system. To take one statistic from the book, it is estimated that between 1941-42 one quarter of the entire Gulag population starved to death. Millions were tortured, starved, and worked to death, the life expectancy was three months in some of the Siberian camps. They were to all intents and purposes death camps. The term Gulag has rightly come to mean a symbol of oppression and totalitarian power; how disturbing that some on this talk page seem so keen to ignore so many facts and accounts from the historical records. Jprw (talk) 13:32, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Note threading when you say "you." Collect (talk) 16:14, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Sorry. Fixed.--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:30, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Applepaum etc.

To avoid future arguments similar to those from the last posts of Jprw, Tentontunic, and other newcomers, let me reproduce some old arguments and sources I already presented on other talk pages.
Opening of formerly classified Soviet archives compelled most western scholars to re-consider their views on the Soviet history (Doing Soviet History: The Impact of the Archival Revolution Author(s): Donald J. Raleigh Source: Russian Review, Vol. 61, No. 1 (Jan., 2002), pp. 16-24) Currently, most scholars and political writers who write about Stalinist repressions use for their works a seminal article published in the American Historical Reviews by J. Arch Getty, Gábor T. Rittersporn, Viktor N. Zemskov. (Victims of the Soviet Penal System in the Pre-War Years: A First Approach on the Basis of Archival Evidence Author(s): J. Arch Getty, Gábor T. Rittersporn, Viktor N. Zemskov Source: The American Historical Review, Vol. 98, No. 4 (Oct., 1993), pp. 1017-1049). To avoid accusation in OR, let me quote such a rightist and anti-Communist scholar as Robert Conquest, who wrote:

"We are all inclined to accept the Zemskov totals (even if not as complete) with their 14 million intake to Gulag 'camps' alone, to which must be added 4-5 million going to Gulag 'colonies', to say nothing of the 3.5 million already in, or sent to, 'labour settlements'." (Robert Conquest in "Victims of Stalinism: A Comment." Europe-Asia Studies, Vol. 49, No. 7 (Nov., 1997), pp. 1317-1319 )

Interestingly, these data, obtained based on the exhaustive analysis of declassified Soviet archives, have been carefully checked by other western scholars, including cross-check (comparison of the figures taken from local and central archives, analysis of the number of NKVD troops who guarded the camps, etc), who came to a conclusion that it would be highly unlikely that these figures were forged.

"Cheating on a large scale could surely have been detected. So when the records show that there were 2.6 million zaklyuchennye in 1950, plus 2.3 million in spetsposeleniya (i.e. in exile, but not behind wire), and that this was the highest such total in Soviet history, this does seem likely to be close to the truth, and estimates made in and out of Russia which name much higher figures have to be revised downwards." (Terror Victims. Is the Evidence Complete? Author(s): Alec Nove Source: Europe-Asia Studies, Vol. 46, No. 3 (1994), pp. 535-537)

Based on these figures, Michael Ellman concluded that:

The best estimate that can currently be made of the number of repression deaths in 1937-38 is the range 950,000-1.2 million, i.e. about a million. This is the estimate which should be used by historians, teachers and journalists concerned with twentieth century Russian-and world-history. Naturally it may, or may not, have to be revised in the future as more evidence becomes available. Most of these repression deaths were deliberate NKVD killings ('executions') but a significant number were deaths in detention (some of which were also deliberate). An unknown number of them were people who died shortly after their release from the Gulag as a result of their treatment in it." (Soviet Repression Statistics: Some Comments. Author(s): Michael Ellman. Source: Europe-Asia Studies, Vol. 54, No. 7 (Nov., 2002), pp. 1151-1172)

Now, in light of all said above, let me discuss the Applebaum's book and the interpretation of her conclusions made by Jprw. Firstly, by contrast to the authors quoted by me, Anne Applebaum is a political journalist. She never did her own archival studies and relied on the works published by others. In actuality, majority of figures she uses in her book were taken from the GRZ article (either directly, or indirectly, from the works of other scholars who used GRZ's data). For instance, she claimed that, according to official statistics, on January 1950, the Gulag contained 2,561,351 prisoners in a camps and colonies of the system [25]. Let's compare this figure with the data from the Getty, Rittersporn, Zemskov's article. According to them, there were 1,727,970 inmates in the Gulag camps and 740,554 inmates in colonies.

1,727,970 (Gulag, Zemskov) + 740,554 (colonies, Zemskov) = 2,468,524 (Gulag, Appelbaum)

Taking into account that the GRZ article is an original work (Applebaum and all scholars cite this article) it is obvious that Appelbaum took GRZ's data, not vise versa. In other words, it is simply ridiculous to contrapose the data of Appelbaum (taken in actuality from the works of serious scholars) and the works of these scholars themselves.

Jprw writes (referring to Applebaum):

"To take one statistic from the book, it is estimated that between 1941-42 one quarter of the entire Gulag population starved to death. Millions were tortured, starved, and worked to death, the life expectancy was three months in some of the Siberian camps. They were to all intents and purposes death camps."

Getty writes:

"More than half of all GULAG deaths in the entire 1934-1953 period occurred in 1941-1943, mostly from malnutrition. The space allotment per inmate in 1942 was only one square meter per person, and work norms were increased. Although rations were augmented in 1944 and inmates given reduced sentences for overfilling their work quotas, the calorie content of their daily provision was still 30 percent less than in the pre-war period. Obviously, the greatest privation, hunger, and number of deaths among GULAG inmates, as for the general Soviet population, occurred during the war." (Getty, Rittersporn, Zemskov, Op.cit.)

In other words, we have the same facts, that have been represented quite differently: whereas Jprw makes a stress on the WWII time mortality (probably implying that the same events occurred during the whole period of Gulag history), GRZ write that that was an extraordinary period of the Gulag history, and that it was connected with desperate food shortage in the USSR as whole during that time. Obviously, the arguments that "Millions were tortured, starved, and worked to death..." is either Jprw's or Applebaum's inventions, because the only source of reliable information (the articles of serious scholars quoted above, as well as the works of Wheatcroft and similar scholars) contain no such figures.

"After a brief discussion of Zemskov's figures and those of Nekrasov, I pointed out that these figures gave a maximum number of 2.53 million prisoners in the camps, colonies and jails, 2.75 million special exiles (spetsposelentsy) and 65 332 in exile or banishment, which gave a total for 1953 of 5.35 million. 'These figures are, of course considerably smaller than those cited by Conquest and Rosefielde for the Gulag population alone'. The camp mortality figures that could be calculated from the Zemskov data indicated an average level of 70 per thousand for the 1934-47 period. When applied to the smaller level of one to two million in gulag for 15 years, they would account for about 1.6 million deaths..." (Victims of Stalinism and the Soviet Secret Police: The Comparability and Reliability of the Archival Data. Not the Last Word. Author(s): Stephen G. Wheatcroft. Source: Europe-Asia Studies, Vol. 51, No. 2 (Mar., 1999), pp. 315-345)

Enough for today. I'll add more sources/quotes/references if needed.--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:25, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes and please do not forget to add Conquest's reply to Wheatcroft which can be found here [26]. I'll leave you with one quote from it:

Throughout his piece, Wheatcroft is concerned to misrepresent and impugn my motives -- the traditional recourse of the sectarian. It would be hard, apparently, to explain to Wheatcroft that my early works on the Soviet Union were undertaken out of a wish to discover the facts. Academics, in the sense Wheatcroft intends, had not done so (and work by the leading Russianist, Sir Bernard Pares, and the leading social scientists, the Webbs, and most others, were valueless). I have avoided the abusive tone Wheatcroft has used against me, but I will not conclude without mention of an acquaintance who had attended a talk of his at the time the mass graves were being discovered, telling me that when she raised the subject, he dismissed it ("rather testily"!) as rumours. Yes, after all, bodies are not documents.

Jprw (talk) 06:34, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. The only thing that remains unclear for me is what relation does it have to the subject of our discussion. The key points of my post in this section are:

1. That archival materials that become available after the collapse of the USSR forced the western scholars to re-consider their viewpoint on some key aspects of Soviet history;
2. That the data are considered reliable by most scholars, including Robert Conquest;
3. That these data do not support earlier estimates of the number of the Gulag inmates and camp mortality;
4. That the maximal population of Gulag camps was ca 2.5 million (btw, close to the prison population in present days USA [27]), the total amount of those passed through Gulag was 14 million, and the amount of deaths in captivity was ca 1.5 - 2 millions, not "tens of millions".

Regarding the disagreements between Wheatcroft, Rosenfielde and Conquest, their dispute is long, they sometimes disagree, sometimes they accept the validity of each other's arguments, however, I see no direct relation between that and the subject of this section. --Paul Siebert (talk) 07:06, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

PS. Thank you for pointing my attention at the http://sovietinfo.tripod.com site. It contains interesting, although not complete collection of the works published by the western scholars about Soviet repressions. It gives a reader a more or less adequate impression about the whole spectrum of views, with Conquest and Rosenfielde on the right part of spectrum, Wheatcroft on the left and Ellman in the middle. Try to read all of that, it is really interesting. I hope that will help you to somewhat re-consider your views.--Paul Siebert (talk) 07:43, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes I agree it is a valuable source. I hope it also helps you understand that Wheatcroft, who you like quoting so much, emerges from this source as a kind of extreme left-wing equivalent of David Irving, and that in terms of establishing accuracy and objectivity, it might be inadvisable to rely on him so much, if at all. Jprw (talk) 11:30, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Firstly, I cited Raleigh, Conquest, Getty, Ellman and Nove, and I cited Wheatcroft only once in this section. Therefore, your statement that I like to quote him so much is not correct.

Secondly, as regards to "left-wing equivalent of David Irving", the non-exhaustive list of Wheatcroft's publications in peer-reviewed western scholarly journals is below:

1. The Scale and Nature of German and Soviet Repression and Mass Killings, 1930-45 Stephen Wheatcroft Europe-Asia Studies, Vol. 48, No. 8 (Dec., 1996), pp. 1319-1353
2. Towards a Thorough Analysis of Soviet Forced Labour Statistics S. G. Wheatcroft Soviet Studies, Vol. 35, No. 2 (Apr., 1983), pp. 223-237
3. A Note on Steven Rosefielde's Calculations of Excess Mortality in the USSR, 1929-1949 S. G. Wheatcroft Soviet Studies, Vol. 36, No. 2 (Apr., 1984), pp. 277-281
4. On Assessing the Size of Forced Concentration Camp Labour in the Soviet Union, 1929-56 S. G. Wheatcroft Soviet Studies, Vol. 33, No. 2 (Apr., 1981), pp. 265-295
5. More Light on the Scale of Repression and Excess Mortality in the Soviet Union in the 1930s S. G. Wheatcroft Soviet Studies, Vol. 42, No. 2 (Apr., 1990), pp. 355-367
6. Stalin and the Soviet Famine of 1932-33: A Reply to Ellman R. W. Davies, Stephen G. Wheatcroft Europe-Asia Studies, Vol. 58, No. 4 (Jun., 2006), pp. 625-633
7. The Reliability of Russian Prewar Grain Output Statistics S. G. Wheatcroft Soviet Studies, Vol. 26, No. 2 (Apr., 1974), pp. 157-180
8. The Scale and Nature of Stalinist Repression and Its Demographic Significance: On Comments by Keep and Conquest S. G. WheatcroftEurope-Asia Studies, Vol. 52, No. 6 (Sep., 2000), pp. 1143-1159
9. Toward an Objective Evaluation of the Complexities of Soviet Social Reality under Stalin Stephen G. Wheatcroft Slavic Review, Vol. 58, No. 1 (Spring, 1999), pp. 91-95
10. Further Thoughts on the First Soviet Five-Year Plan R. W. Davies, S. G. Wheatcroft Slavic Review, Vol. 34, No. 4 (Dec., 1975), pp. 790-802
11. Victims of Stalinism and the Soviet Secret Police: The Comparability and Reliability of the Archival Data. Not the Last Word Stephen G. Wheatcroft Europe-Asia Studies, Vol. 51, No. 2 (Mar., 1999), pp. 315-345
12. The Great Leap Upwards: Anthropometric Data and Indicators of Crises and Secular Change in Soviet Welfare Levels, 1880-1960 Stephen G. Wheatcroft Slavic Review, Vol. 58, No. 1 (Spring, 1999), pp. 27-60
13. New Demographic Evidence on Excess Collectivization Deaths: Yet Another Kliukva from Steven Rosefielde? Stephen G. Wheatcroft Slavic Review, Vol. 44, No. 3 (Autumn, 1985), pp. 505-508
14. Steven Rosefielde's Kliukva R. W. Davies, S. G. Wheatcroft Slavic Review, Vol. 39, No. 4 (Dec., 1980), pp. 593-602
15. Understanding Stalinism: A Reply Stephen G. Wheatcroft Europe-Asia Studies, Vol. 58, No. 7 (Nov., 2006), pp. 1141-1147
16. A Further Note of Clarification on the Famine, the Camps and Excess Mortality A Further Note of Clarification on the Famine, the Camps and Excess Mortality Stephen G. Wheatcroft Europe-Asia Studies, Vol. 49, No. 3 (May, 1997), pp. 503-505
17. Soviet Industrialization Reconsidered: Some Preliminary Conclusions about Economic Development between 1926 and 1941 S. G. Wheatcroft, R. W. Davies, J. M. Cooper The Economic History Review, New Series, Vol. 39, No. 2 (May, 1986), pp. 264-294
18. Stalin, Grain Stocks and the Famine of 1932-1933 R. W. Davies, M. B. Tauger, S. G. Wheatcroft Slavic Review, Vol. 54, No. 3 (Autumn, 1995), pp. 642-657

Note, that each of these articles, by contrast to the Irving's books, have been wetted by a western scientific community, and I doubt far leftist views to be so widely supported by Western scholars. However, if you believe you are able to support your claim about Wheatcroft with reliable sources, please, do that.--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:55, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

This is not OR

Re the edit by Jprw on 18:10, 12 February 2011, see Mass killings under Communist regimes#Others. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 18:15, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I reverted that. The other sentence he tagged about the 70 million number, however, does have problems. For one, that number refers only to the big three (China, USSR, and Cambodia). Second, it is an upper limit estimate in a range given by Valentino on page 91. Since several recent disputes by new contributors here relate to the passage in question, I'll quote it here: "In this chapter I focus primarily on mass killings in the Soviet Union, China, and Cambodia - history's most murderous communist states. Communist violence in these three states alone may account for between 21 million and 70 million deaths. Mass killings on a smaller scale also appear to have been carried out by communist regimes in North Korea, Vietnam, Eastern Europe, and Africa. Documentation of these cases in secondary sources, however, remains inadequate to render a reliable judgment regarding the numbers and identity of the victims or the true intentions of their killers." AmateurEditor (talk) 19:22, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

You are right. I took that number from memory, and it actually referred to this three regimes only. The upper estimate Valentino cites for all nominally Communist (according to his own words) regimes is 110. However, I see one problem with citing this number (as well as with 70 millions, the number I added by myself): since Valentino did no his own research and relied upon other secondary sources, his estimate most likely came from the obsolete Rummel's works, who used old data, and whose figures, in most cases, are known to be skewed towards higher estimates. Sometimes the figures appear to be inflated dramatically. For example, argued that about 40 millions prisoners died in Gulag, whereas the generally accepted numbers range between 1-2 million. Therefore, I believe we have to modify this sentence as follows:

" According to these scholars, the total death toll of the mass killings defined in this way amounts tens of millions."

In my opinion, we cannot give more precise number in the lede, because that would be misleading.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:40, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I have no problem with using "tens of millions". I also have no problem with including a range of estimates, but I can see how others might object. AmateurEditor (talk) 19:55, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Changed.--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:29, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

On the other hand, much of the lead looks like a paraphrasing of the single source that you cite, which can't be satisfactory. Jprw (talk) 06:21, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

That demonstrates your unfamiliarity with the literature.--Paul Siebert (talk) 07:10, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

What do you mean? I was referring to the fact that most of the lead is Valentino on page 91 re-hashed. Do you not think we can do better than this, and use a variety of sources to create a richer and more balanced lead? Jprw (talk) 11:34, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

I mean that the lede more or less correctly reflects what the article says. The idea to combine all excess deaths (not only executions, but also famine victims, etc) in a category "mass killing" belongs to Valentino, therefore, it is natural to expect the article and theh lede to rely on his works.

--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:40, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Valentino summarizes the estimates of other scholars. If you have another source that does this differently, then please provide one. TFD (talk) 17:56, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

POV

Another editor explained above why this article is POV and I am copying his comments below. Could editors please resolve this issue before removing the POV tag. TFD (talk) 20:22, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

This is effectively a "nexus" article about the connection between Communism and murder, yet (as Andy points out in the previous section) skips any discussion of the actual connection, assuming we all understand it. A "nexus" article should illustrate that the connection itself is notable. That is why we don't have "Mass killings on Tuesdays". (See also the very funny Judaism and bus stops deletion discussion.) As it happens, the Communism/Mass killing nexus is notable, but the article never bothers to establish notability. It would become encyclopedic if recast as an article on the work of notable historians, sociologists etc. who have examined the Communism/mass killing nexus. Specific country examples would then come in through their work. There is no lack of such sources on many of the examples mentioned. FWIW, articles on "capitalism and mass killing", "democracy and mass killing" and so forth could be similarly sourced. History is "indeed, little more than the register of the crimes, follies, and misfortunes of mankind. " Gibbon. Jonathanwallace (talk) 13:05, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

And Jonathan is wrong, it really ought to surprise me that you would restore a BIAS tag on this article, yet on left wing terrorism you remove one within a few hours. You argue on communist terrorism to no end, you appear to be tendentious in your approach to articles which may be critical of communism in fact. Did you not just get warned for just this behavior? We have here an article, about mass killings which happened under communist regimes, it does not matter how many died under capitalism, or democracy, or the rule of the evil overlords of the mole people. What matters on this article is how many died under Communist Regimes. Tentontunic (talk) 23:14, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Care to explain why you think I am wrong? Do you think notability of a connection does not need to be established in an encyclopedia? Jonathanwallace (talk) 00:57, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

The connection is made in one of the sources already in the article, page 73 of Final solutions: mass killing and genocide in the twentieth century "The most deadly mass killings in history have resulted from the effort to transform society according to communist doctrine" A look in the archives also shows other sources which have been presented. Tentontunic (talk) 08:24, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, see that. The lede is still weaselly worded. An encyclopedia article should build from the central premise ("Communist regimes have a particular tendency to kill a lot of people") not justify it in passing after giving many examples. I'm also interested in the quality of the sources. I will spend some more time on it and will post suggestions here. Jonathanwallace (talk) 13:27, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

I look forward to seeing your proposals Tentontunic (talk) 13:34, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

It would be helpful if you could provide sources for the article. TFD (talk) 13:47, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

I have, my last few edits to the lede introduced several sources. Tentontunic (talk) 14:18, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Some edits

I just added the tag to the weasel worded lede ("Study has been made..."). In looking over the article, I then noticed the really remarkable assertion that Darwinism causes mass murder, sourced to Ann Coulter. Our official verifiability policy requires, "Exceptional claims require high-quality sources." Ann Coulter is not a reliable source for a historical link between belief in evolution science and mass murder. Jonathanwallace (talk) 00:52, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

I just posted a query about this at the Reliable Source noticeboard. Jonathanwallace (talk) 01:16, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

I would recommend moving Coulter's comments to the lead, because they draw a connection between Communism and mass killings which has been lacking. Mass killings under Communist regimes may be explained by their adherence to the Darwinian theory of evolution. Does anyone know if other scholars have the same opinion? TFD (talk) 02:53, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

I understand your point, Jonathan, but I think Coulter's comments are representative of the level of scholarship on this topic and so I don't object to them being in the article. --FormerIP (talk) 02:55, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

How about renaming the article 'Mass killings by adherents to Newton's Theory of Gravity'? AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:56, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Coulter's book, Godless, which is the source used, was published by a division of Random House and Coulter is a reputable journalist writing for the National Review and appearing of Fox News Channel. She studied history at Cornell and has a doctorate (J.D.). TFD (talk) 03:36, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

""I like to stir up the pot. I don't pretend to be impartial or balanced, as broadcasters do..." http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/April06/coulter.pre.dea.html Reputable journalist? AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:42, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

TFD: I am trying to figure out whether your comments about moving the Darwinism-mass murder connection to the lede were serious or tongue-in-cheek. I've looked at your user page and still can't tell. Would you mind clarifying that? Jonathanwallace (talk) 13:35, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

I would not use Coulter's writings. However all the polticial and social science articles suffer from the inclusion of popular, non-academic writing - this is just an egregious example. TFD (talk) 16:22, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

• Or you could move Coulter, George Watson's literary criticism, and Courtois' Introduction where he claims non-catholocism is an over all cause, etc. to a section "Fringe History and Sociology"; and leave the body section clear for real historical and sociological multi society claims, such as Valentino's dispossessive mass killing claim. Fifelfoo (talk) 04:56, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Neutrality

This article infers a connection between Communist regimes and mass killings, which is not explained. There is no discussion of who has made the connection, what connection they have made, or the level of acceptance of their views. /Accordingly it reads like cold war propaganda and is an embarrassment and a disservice to readers. Also, most of the sources do not directly address the subject but are written about events in individual countries. Much of the literature is taken from books that are either published outside the mainstream academic press or comparatively recent. Accordingly we cannot discern what level of acceptance they have in mainstream writing - in fact they probably have none. TFD (talk) 03:38, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

As I recall you argued there were no sources for "communist genocide", that it was a synthesis, etc. when there are hundreds of books on the topic—the preponderance being genocide by (self-declared) "communists" but also genocide committed against the same. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 05:30, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

The name of that article was changed precisely because of synthesis problems. By the way, if you wish to explain the horrors of Communism to people, they have been well-documented in reliable sources. You should allow this article to be written in a neutral tone and allow the readers to form their own opinions. Intelligent readers are able to discern bias and distortions and may question why the article is written in a biased manner, and may even come away with a more positive view of Communism, if only because they develop a negative view of anti-Communists. TFD (talk) 05:47, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

@TFD rsp to mine, what you call "synthesis problems" were arguing over the lead, quoting the U.N. genocide resolution and a whole pile of additional WP:OR arguing over what the article was about, forcing the discussion toward the need to agree on the article lead. No one (well, at least one camp of editors, by appearances) was interested in representing what scholarly sources refer to when discussing "communist genocide" (for example, whether genocide by or of communists or both) as that meant having the words "Communist genocide" appearing as a Wikipedia article title. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 17:25, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

We don't have articles such as breeds of chicken raised under Communist regimes or mass killings in Protestant nations. Why? Because no one can see any connection between them. You obviously draw a connection in your mind, but you need to be explicit about what the connection is in the article. The is for example a website called Republican Sex Offenders, which basically lists republican sex offenders. However, if you want to create such an article here, then you need reliable sources that draw a connection between republicans and sex crimes. TFD (talk) 17:44, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

1. You are going to have to explain what you mean by "infer a connection between Communist regimes and mass killings", because it make little sense to me as a criticism. I understood your prior point that the article should not take a side on a connection between communist ideology and mass killings, but the connection between the regimes and the killings is both uncontroversial and explicitly made: many of these regimes engaged in mass killing. Does the Slavery in ancient Greece article infer a connection between ancient Greece and slavery? How can an article "infer a connection" on what are essentially facts? There is disagreement in sources on numerical estimates for events and on intentionality for a few events, but no disagreement on the validity of the topic itself, which even the sources you have presented to criticize the topic have acknowledged. The scholars are in fact named in the article. Their "levels of acceptance" are not because it would be original research for us add that on our own. Therefore, the only "level of acceptance" that is relevant here is whether or not a source meets Wikipedia's standard for reliable sources. All the sources used here do.

2. That many or even most sources used in the article focus on a single event is irrelevant to the POV tag. They are only used to describe the event they document. That is a neutral use for them. The sources which discuss multiple regime discuss these events, so it is appropriate that this article also does.

3. "...it reads like cold war propaganda..." Please be specific. According to the WP:NPOVD, you must address "specific issues that are actionable" because "Simply being of the opinion that a page is not neutral is not sufficient to justify the addition of the tag." AmateurEditor (talk) 01:18, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

1. The article "Slavery in ancient Greece says "Slavery was common practice and an integral component of ancient Greece.... Most ancient writers considered slavery not only natural but necessary.... The study of slavery in ancient Greece poses a number of significant methodological problems. Documentation is disjointed and very fragmented, focusing on the city of Athens." This article does not say for example: "Mass killings were common practice and an integral component of Communist states.... Most Communists considered mass killings not only natural but necessary.... The study of mass killings under Communist regimes poses a number of significant methodological problems. Documentation is disjointed and very fragmented, focusing on the the Soviet Union."

2. No idea what you are talking about.

3. If you have to misrepresent the facts in order to present your views, then readers will distrust you. Ironically your approach will create sympathy for Communism. Having watched the Manchurian Candidate, I believe that some extreme anti-communists may be secret Communists, trying to discredit democracy by appearing to be extreme.

TFD (talk) 04:43, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

1. I did not bring up the Slavery in ancient Greece article as a cookie-cutter imitation of this one. Every topic is unique and must be treated on its own terms. I brought it up to debunk your argument about an inferred connection being made by the existence of this article between mass killing and Communist regimes. Just as slavery was not unique to ancient Greece and an article on that topic does not infer that there was a special connection between the two beyond the fact that it occurred, so mass killing was not unique to Communist regimes and this article does not infer a connection beyond the facts of what occurred. There were, however, in both cases, unique circumstances and characteristics that have been examined in reliable sources and so articles in Wikipedia are justified.

2. If you explain why you don't understand, then I can try to clarify things.

3. Having reread the previous posts, I see now that you were referring to propaganda due to the three specific omissions from the article you mentioned in your second sentence: who has made the connection, what connection they have made, and the level of acceptance of their views. I tend to think of propaganda as the presence of deliberate untruth or inaccuracy, rather than the absence of anything, so that word confused me. As I mentioned previously, the scholars are in fact named in the article, along with their views, in the "Proposed causes" section of the article. The "levels of acceptance" are not because it would be OR without sourcing. AmateurEditor (talk) 14:34, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

There was in fact a connection between slavery and ancient Greece, it was part of the economic and social system, incorporated into law and defended by political leaders of the time. Furthermore, Greece is a country. However, we do not have an article called "slavery in ancient Greece, Peru and the Confederate States, because someone believes we should group these countries together. TFD (talk) 15:27, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

This is (appears to be typical here), dispute "A" by raising "we don't have 'B'". Let's stick to the topic. This article is not about genocide by democracies, slavery in ancient Greece, or anything else that is being raised here that has no bearing on the topic. All appearing to be the exact indulgence in WP:OR and WP:SYNTHESIS that editors and then turn around and accuse the article of. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 16:00, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Vecrumba, the analogy is far from perfect but it can be useful. TFD, yes, there was a "connection" between ancient Greece and slavery. No, ancient Greece was not a state, it was a collection of city states which often differed (and went to war with each other). These city states are grouped together in the article because that is how reliable sources characterize the topic. Similarly in this article, there is a connection between Communist regimes and mass killing found in reliable sources and "communist regimes" is the characterization found those sources.[28] AmateurEditor (talk) 16:27, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

AmateurEditor, please do not put words in my mouth. I never said ancient Greece was a state. However the individual states were connected by contiguousness, ethnicity, language, religion and customs. They self-identified as a people, identifying non-Greeks as "barbarians" and cooperated among themselves in various areas including the Olympics and the Trojan and the Greco-Persian wars. Please give me credit that I advanced far enough in my education to study classical history. TFD (talk) 16:48, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Since we weren't talking about modern Greece, I assumed a typo. But all that matters here is how reliable sources characterize a topic, TFD. In this case, they use "communist regimes". It is not a violation of NPOV policy. AmateurEditor (talk) 16:53, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Notice there is no Mass killings under ancient Greek regimes article, even though mass killings occured in Sparta and perhaps other Greek states. In order to write such an article you would have to explain why mass killings was an aspect of Greek, rather than specifically Spartan, culture. TFD (talk) 17:00, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

That article probably doesn't exist because there are no reliable sources for it, unlike this one. AmateurEditor (talk) 17:06, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

There certainly are.[29] There just are not many editors hostile toward ancient Greece. TFD (talk) 17:14, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

No, that source does not mention "Greek regimes" or speak of mass killings in ancient greece more generally, so while it could be used to add facts to a Mass killings under ancient Greek regimes article, it cannot be used to justify the existence of such an article or the title of an article. The sources I excerpted here[30] for this article, however, do justify this one. AmateurEditor (talk) 17:56, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)AmateurEditor, TFD didn't write Greece was a single state, he wrote it was a country, and that is true. It was a single nation united by common national economy, religion, language, culture and the Olympic games. The Greeks saw themselves as the single entity, by contrast to the barbarians from the West and the North and to the ancient peoples from the East. Therefore, it is correct to speak about them as about the single country divided onto many city-states.

The TFD's point seems to be correct, because we cannot group different categories arbitrarily, or based on the viewpoint shared by only a part of scholars. For instance, although we can list "slavery in ancient Greece, Peru and the Confederate States", because nominally the economy of those country was based on slave labour, however, it would be incorrect to group these countries separately from, e.g. Rome, Hellinistic states of Asia Minor, etc. Moreover, if we need to group any slave countries, we have to discuss slavery of Antique times together, because that phenomenon was different from the slavery during, e.g. Ancient Egypt, Central and Southern American civilisations and American slavery.

Similarly, many authors prefer to group mass killings committed by authoritarian regimes, others focus on totalitarian regimes only; some authors discuss mass killings in Asia, others discuss counter-guerilla mass killings; other authors discuss authoritarian or genocidal traditions in some particular Asiatic or European country; only small part of authors discuss mass killing in connection to Communism.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:22, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Paul, I was addressing the point TFD seemed to be making, rather than what he literally said, because it seemed to be the more generous thing to do. It doesn't help us achieve consensus to nitpick, and I wasn't interested in going off on a tangent. This article does not "group different categories arbitrarily". The example of "slavery in ancient Greece, Peru and the Confederate States" is not something we can justify as a Wikipedia article because it is not a distinct topic found in reliable sources. It is also in no way comparable to this one, which groups things based on how reliable sources have grouped them. If other reliable sources have grouped things differently, then they can be used to justify other articles (or even changes to this article, depending on the circumstances). AmateurEditor (talk) 17:56, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Exactly, whereas some scholars group these events in such a way, and call them "mass killings", others group them differently, and sometimes use different terminology. Therefore, the article cannot present the current content as the mainstream views.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:35, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Grouping the Communist regimes together is not at all controversial. The topic of mass killings as a topic is not controversial. The subtopic of mass killings under Communist regimes should also not be controversial. I know of no evidence that the topic of this article is at all controversial as a topic of study. I think you and I agree on this, although TFD does not (please correct me if I am wrong, either of you). There is definitely controversy between scholars within this subject, but it seems to be limited to three things: the best terminology to use for the topic as a whole, the regime intent behind a few events, and numerical estimates for events. I am not aware of any other controversies. Currently, each source's views are being presented as the views of that source alone. If you think a view presented in the article is being presented as the mainstream view while actually being outside the mainstream, then please make your case. AmateurEditor (talk) 20:48, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I have been unable to find a single book about mass killings under Communist regimes. If some writers do group them together, then we owe to readers to say who they are, why they group them together, and provide commentary from reliable sources on their scholarship. Otherwise, this article is synthesis. TFD (talk) 21:08, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Here's a single book: Red Holocaust (2009 book). The article does say who the writers are. You can add the rest if you want and can source it. TFD, you started this talk page section to talk about "Neutrality". I answered your concerns and you ignore me ("...we owe to readers to say who they are..."). Why should I not ignore you in return? AmateurEditor (talk) 21:29, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

That is a start. We can look for sources that discuss the views presented in the book, and see how widely held they are, and develop a proper neutral lead. TFD (talk) 21:38, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

That book is mentioned in the very article we are discussing. An article you have apparently not familiarized yourself with, despite your prominence criticizing it on this talk page. And you still haven't acknowledged that the article does in fact mention the writers as you just demanded it do. Please stop what you are doing right now and take the time to read (or re-read) the Wikipedia article before continuing with your criticism of it. AmateurEditor (talk) 21:48, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

(out) My apologies, we did discuss this book before but I forgot about it because it is obscure. This book is a reliable source for facts, including what other academics say. He says, "Western public culture is profoundly uncomfortable with the Red Holocaust. It is inclined toward denial because a communist state policy of mass civilian slaughter impugns the west's faith in reason, progress, harmony and justice.... For the same reason, it is prone to excuse the mote, and when all else fails, to sermonize. Many however, resist believing that this dismal outcome was fated, or that communists employed massive violence to build and spread their systems. This treatise challenges the notion that communist economy was ever sound...."

In other words, Rosefielde acknowledges that he is presenting a minority view. His book False Science: Underestimating the Soviet Arms Buildup. An Appraisal of the CIA's Direct Costing Effort, 1960-1985, for example, was standard neo-conservative fare, arguing about the imminent danger of the Soviet Union months before its collapse.

We cannot present minority views as consensus views. We cannot use the existence of minority views as a hook for a coatrack, which is what this article does.

What we should do is explain Rosefielde's views and the degree of acceptance they have received.

TFD (talk) 02:46, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Here is a link to Rosefielde's 1988 book False Science, published by Transaction Publishers where he outlines the "Team B" conspiracy theory about how the Soviet Union has surpassed the U.S. in military ability and the CIA is hiding the fact from the American people. Months later the Soviet Union collapsed. TFD (talk) 03:28, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Apparently the Soviet Union collapsed because its economy could not sustain the massive arms build up. --Martin (talk) 06:03, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

There were several reasons for collapse of the USSR, and the massive arms build up was just one of them.--Paul Siebert (talk) 12:23, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Another major factor was the inability of a Soviet "planned economy" to actually find increases in productivity - the Chinese current system, by substituting the ability for rapid decision making for the inflexible "5 year plans" of the Soviets, and by allowing strong rewards for innovation and productivity, appears to be avoiding some of the worst problems of the Soviets and of the Mao-period China. No matter what the economic system, people work harder and smarter when they see rewards for doing so. (preceding is personal opinion based upon course work in economics, etc., and is not presented as an "Article edit") Collect (talk) 12:45, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Michael Harrington's analysis - "socialism" in the Soviet Union, China, and other countries was a method for rapid industrialization. It was not a step from feudalism toward communism but toward capitalism and has been successful, especially in China. TFD (talk) 14:56, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

As a reader and only minor editor, I probably should have no input, but I feel strongly after reading this article that it is terribly biased. I actually only clicked on the link to read this article because the title was so surprising. I wanted to know what scholarly connections had been drawn between mass killings and communism. I was quite disappointed as the article is merely a jumbled bag of occurrences with no explicit thread linking them. The implicit message was clear enough, though, "communism causes genocide". I think that this article may be salvaged if it was reframed as a description of a minority view point of socio-political history and a discussion of the notable scholars who hold that view.

The current article is basically a list of atrocities suffered under communist regimes, which is a valuable exercise that someone should undertake, but not wikipedia. 67.183.110.101 (talk) 16:09, 21 February 2011 (UTC)