Talk:Mashallah ibn Athari

Mashallah

He was probably a egyptian jew or an arab jew NOT persian. [1] Jidan 00:30, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Mashallah was a Persian Jew, refer to Dumbarton Oaks Papers, Vol. 43, 1989 (1989) , pp. 227-239 (Screen shot) --ManiF 01:14, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Mashallah was a native of basra, a city created by the arabs as a garrsion to attack the Iranians, in south iraq which was predominately arab before and after the arab conquest of Iran. I have really no idea how he can be labeled persian.Jidan 01:27, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Being a native of Basra, doesn't make anyone an Arab. Basra, for large periods of its history has been a part of Persia and Iran. Regardless, Mashallah was a Persian Jew as per the academic source I've provided. --ManiF 01:38, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I have fond a new source. The jewish encyclopedia itself. The jews themselves call him Arab:

Jewish Encyclopedia.

The matter is settled! Jidan 01:52, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your remarks, Jidan. I've been bewildered and puzzled by the references to Masha'allah as a Persian or as an Iraqui in Wiki. In astrology articles I've written in Wiki, I identify him as an Egyptian Jew, since that was the opinion of historians of astrology (for example, Robert Hand, in his introduction to two translations of Masha'allah's work for Project Hindsight.) That he was a Jew is pretty much agreed upon, apparently, although no one can say for certain. NaySay 15:14, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Historian Donald R. Hill, says he was a Jew from Khorasan. See p.10 of Islamic Science and Engineering, Edinburgh University Press.--Zereshk 20:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Did he convert to Islam? 84.191.90.16 12:02, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

According to books, he was Persian, and not an Arab. This may also be helpful [2] --Shamir1 03:50, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

The website you posted is an nationalist anti-arab iranian website(iranian.ws) which calls arabs parasits [3], humilates muslims by flushing a quran through the toilet [4], and calls for a crusade against everything arab[5]. As posted by another user above, according to Robert Hand, in his introduction to two translations of Masha'allah's work for Project Hindsight, the Jewish Encyclopedia, and this [6], he was an Arab. I may remind everyone that removing sourced info is considered VANDALISM. Thank youJidan 12:11, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Online Encyclopedias or pages are not acceptable sources, many are simply mirrors of Wikipedia articles, you haven't provided a primary published source per WP:RS. --ManiF 15:41, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopaedia Iranica is also online. Should we start deleting all content that quotes from that publication?

Jewish Encyclopedia comes online and in a printed version, just like britannica. Robert Hand, who is a science historian, says that mashallah is an Arab. You can buy his book from Amazon.com, if you want. Jidan 17:07, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

No, your "reference" is the online Encyclopedia, and in many cases a mirror of Wikipedia. Mashallah was a Persian Jew, his mother tongue was Persian, infact he translated 19 books from Persian into Arabic. And we've been through this discussion millions of times, on many articles, just because someone knew Arabic, which was the language of science at the time, that doesn't make him an Arab. Oh and there are "references" that call Avicenna an Arab too, but that doesn't mean it's true. As someone pointed out before, in the West, the terms "Arab" and "Muslim" or "Middle Eastern" were used interchangeably until some 30 years ago and slowly references are being updated although not fast enough.--ManiF 18:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Will Durant in The Age of Faith: A History of Medieval Civilization -Christian, Islamic, and Judaic - from Constantine to Dante A.D. 325-1300 (Simon and Schuster, 1950), p. 403, callsd Mashallah a Jewish scholar. Beit Or 20:34, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

That was also the stable and the version we originally agreed on. Jidan 17:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Did you notice that both links used to support the claim of his Arabness actaully call him Jewish? "One of the earliest astronomers and astrologers in Islam, himself an Egyptian (?) Jew."[7] "With the revival of Greek science which took place in Islam, Jews were intimately connected, and the "Almagest" is said to have been translated by Sahal ibn Tabari as early as 800, while one of the earliest independent students of Astronomy among the Arabs was Mashallah (754-873?)."[8] Beit Or 21:15, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Edit warring

I hope the actual version (i've just reformulated the intro) would satisfy the READERS. -- Szvest → ^{Wiki Me Up ®} 19:15, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it doesn't satisfy the truth. A few secondary sources such as online encyclopedias refer to Mashallah as Egyptian or Arab by mistake, I have a reliable primary source that clarifies this matter beyond any doubt. Medieval Science, Technology, and Medicine - Steven John (EDT) Livesey, Thomas F. Glick, Faith Wallis Page 331: "Mashaallah ibn Atharī, or Ibn Saryia, was a Jewish astrolger of Persian origin, from Basra (Iraq), although he's soometimes called Egyption (Arab) due to the easy confusion, in Arabic script, between Misri (Egyption) and Basri (Basrian)"

--ManiF 00:33, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

The issue is settled. ManiF has found a source that not only proves his Persian-ness, but also debunks the idea that he was an Egyptian/Arab. --Shamir1 01:05, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. What we need now from Jidan is a source that debunks the idea that he was Persian. Khoikhoi 05:42, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed with all of the above. It is undisputed that Mashallah was Persian Jewish. Beit Or 08:13, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

HAHAHA...so masri is now basri. I remember more than once, non-arab friends of mine asking me how I could read an arabic book when all letters look the same!! Probably, the authors saw that too! Well, a picture is more worth than a thousand word.

1) is Misri, where the red letter is "m". 2)is basri, where the red letter is "b".

Now, saying that 1) = 2) is pure imaginative speculation, which isn't based on any scientific facts. It is of course possible that the ancient writer might have been drunk, but to assume that just to prove that "Masri" is actually "Basri", is simply unscientific. And even if it was true and his last name was really Al-Basri (from Basra in Iraq) and not Al-Masri(egyptian), how does that prove that he is persian? That could simply mean he isn't egyptian but rather an arab from basra(a city founded by the arab caliph omar 50 year earlier). The author seems also to forget that the methods mashallah used in his astronomy were more hellenistic/greek and not persian/zorostrian. When the abbasid caliph al-Mansur wanted to found a new capital for his empire(i.e. Baghdad), he wanted to have the best astronomical knwoledge what the west(hellenistic world) and the east(Persia) had to offer to find the right place for his capital. For that he employed from the east Naubakht of persia, and from the west, Mashalah, who was aknowledged in the hellenistic astronomy. The following are sources which identify him as egyptian(and which I could get a hand on), to backup what I said:

• Jews and Medicine - p156 by Heynick,Frank calles him Mashallah of Egypt [9]
• African Presence in Early Europe - Page 185 by by Ivan Van Sertima calls him also the same [10].
• Biblical Astronomy - Jewishencyclopedia.com
• History of Islamic Science - Prof. Hamed A. Ead

Unlike "some" users who claim to know the truth, I don't! and that is good so. The reader should have ALL info infront of him, and should not be mouth-feed. The version by User:FayssalF does that. Jidan 08:28, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Weirdly, you're still trying to contend that he was an Arab, even though all sources say he was Jewish. Beit Or 08:44, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

When did I EVER say that he is not jewish????? Jidan 08:49, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

"others refer to him as an Arab Jewish" This is not what your sources say. Some sources indeed say he was from Egypt, but Egypt was not an Arab country in the 8th century. Beit Or 09:10, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Egypt was an important arab province in the arab empire at that time and was called Misr. But if that was the problem, why didn't you(aka User:Shamir1) just change "arab" to "egyptian" instead of reverting the whole thing and erasing all info? Jidan 19:45, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Origin

I was asked to have a look at this article. I gave a brief comment here [11]. — [zɪʔɾɪdəʰ] · ☥ 07:11, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmm..., ok, that sounds more plausible. Thank you. Jidan 10:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Name in Arabic Letters

Can anyone tell me his name in Arabic? Is it ما شاء الله ابن الأثري or ما شاء الله ابن الأشري ?

Or are both wrong?--Aa2-2004 (talk) 20:23, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Article Edits

The article expansion done thus far is good, but would have liked to see a little more on his life in the life and works section. The research on his works is great however. Citations in the life and works section need to be in line citations like the ones in the philosophy section. Pictures of the books title page or pictures of inside the books are always nice things to see. The philosophy section is well done in explaining the models. Pictures of the ten, eight, and nine-orb models would be nice here so we can really see the differences. Meganjeanne1 (talk) 02:09, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

The article could split the life and works into a life/early life section and another section to specifically list special works or some works and maybe a summary or what to note about the work. The research is good considering the age and amount of documentation available. More photos would help also. The photo of the engraving is good, but more photos could be provided such as if documentation exists, then the picture of the books could be good also. Nguyen.mkhoa (talk) 22:39, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

I really liked this article overall as it provided me with a lot of information on Athari. However, I believe that the life and works section was too congested. My suggestion would to split this into two or several sections. For example you could do a "early life", "career" and "later life" just so it is organized better. Like I said I do not think anything needs to be added or deleted necessarily but formatted better so it is easier to follow. Lastly I would take out "Science historian Donald Hill writes that Mashallah was originally from Khorasan" entirely or use it to start his life section. (Chriscorbaz (talk)) —Preceding undated comment added 06:43, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

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