Talk:Mariam-uz-Zamani/Archive 1

Archive 1

Unsourced content

Unsourced content must be removed as per WP:V. If a user wants content to stay, he/she must provide sources.

In my recent edits I'm removing content that has been marked as unsourced for two months and has actually been unsourced for longer. Please source, else don't restore it. Thanks.Bless sins (talk) 22:00, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Did Jodha was tortured after her marriage with Akbar?

As in Hindi movie 'Jodha Akbar' there is shown that there is a love story between Mariam-uz-Zamani and Akbar. But as the history reviles Akbar had 36 wifes, it is kind of impossible to love one and only one wife. How much there is truth in the movie 'Jodha Akbar' relating to the real history? Some critics even says that the film is "total falsehood". And Mariam-uz-Zamani had to forcefully live there as her father Raja Bharmal of Aamer was helpless and coward and could not save Mariam-uz-Zamani from the clutches of that very King Akbar who had a roving eye for beautiful girls, anywhere and everywhere.

Were Phool Kanwar and Jodha Bai the same person?

I was going to edit this article of Phool Kanwar Rathore, but not before researching a bit about her, and came across the fact that she was Jodha Bai herself and Maharana Pratap married her to prevent Akbar to do so (which did not last long as Akbar did marry her). I'm not sure about the credibility of this, but there are a few discussions on forums and articles cited over the web. This issue needs to be perused. Abhinav (talk) 06:49, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Hi. Phool Kanwar and Jodha bai are different. Phool kanwar was a princess of Marwar. Jodha bai/Harkha bai/Heer Kunwari was a princess of Amer (Amber) (modern day Jaipur), India. Please don't edit a wikipedia article merely on the basis of forums and un-referenced articles/blogs from all over the web. Thank you. Ananya 2012 (talk) 07:33, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Inconsistency between pages Akbar and Heera Kunwar !

I have been following these 2 pages from last couple of months. Everybody comes does some changes but inconsistency between the pages Akbar and Heera Kunwar !!! I am unable to digest. If you gave made some changes according to your studies then please do the changes everywhere it is mentioned. In the page Akbar it is mentioned that Heera Kunwar is the First and Last love of Akbar. Somebody removed this part from the Heera Kunwar page, Because Akbar is a edit protect page the contents is more reliable then in Heera Kunwar. Can you please make the related changes in Akbar as well. Pyedla (talk) 11:06, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Akbar's wife

If we go by folktales and K Asif's classic 'Mughal-e-Azam', Jodha bai was Amber ruler Raja Bharmal's daughter and Akbar's wife. Here's what some of the country's top historians have to say. The historians are divided over name not the person. Most of them agree that Akbar married the daughter of Raja Bharmal of Amber but differ over her name. She is said to be born on October 1, 1542 as the daughter of Raja Bharmal of Amber and aunt of Man Singh, who later on became one of the nine jewels (Navaratnas) in the court of Akbar. In 1562, she married Akbar the Great and was 22 days elder than him. She was among the three 'chief queens' of Emperor Akbar. His first queen was the childless, Ruqaiyya Begum and his second wife was Salima Sultan, widow of Bairam Khan, Akbar's most trusted general.

Jodhabai was allowed to practice Hinduism freely. She is said to have been politically involved in the court until Nur Jahan became empress. According to Thomas Roe, she was involved in active sea trade and owned a ship named Ramiti which carried pilgrims to Mecca.

In 1586, Jodhabai arranged a marriage of her son, Prince Salim (later Jahangir), to Man Singh's sister Princess Manmati, who was the mother of Prince Khusro. Jodhabai died in 1611. As per her last wishes a vav or step well was constructed by Jahangir.

Abul Fazal's 'Ain-e-Akbari' and 'Akbarnama' have no reference to Jodha Bai. The name also doesn't find mention in Jehangir's memoirs. Similarly, there is no mention of Jodha Bai in Bada'uni's 'Muntakhib-al-Tawarikh'. At Aligarh Muslim university, there has been no reference shown in documents to jodha bai but still there is a mention of Jodha Bai in the works of K.L. Khurana, A.L. Shrivastav and Munni Lal and many other historians. In 'Kachchawon ka Itihas' she is mentioned by the name of Harika Bai. In another book she is called Manmati and Shahi Bai.

Jahangir's wife

Mughal Emperors had many wives, some to consolidate political alliances and others for physical needs. Apart from this, some historians have a conflicting opinion. Historian Jadunath Sarkar says, "Uday Singh of Jaipur married his daughter to Jehangir. Her name was Mira Bai but she was also known as Jodh Bai and not Jodha Bai." Asserts renowned historian and former chairman of Indian Council of Historical Research, Prof Irfan Habib, "There wasn't any historical character called Jodha Bai. It's true that Akbar married Amber ruler Raja Bharmal's eldest daughter but her name isn't mentioned anywhere. And she was certainly not Jahangir's mother. Even Jahangir in his memoirs (Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri) doesn't mention anything about his mother's side."

Opinion of other historians

Former President of Indian History Congress and chairman of History Department, Aligarh University, Prof Iqtedar Alam Khan corroborates Habib's version: "It is only a Punjab historian Sujan Rai Bhandari, who in his book Khulasat-ut-Tawarikh mentions for the first time that the Amber princess whom Akbar married was Jahangir's mother. But even Rai doesn't refer to her as Jodha Bai." Medieval India, an NCERT (National Council for Educational Research and Training) history text book for Class XI by Satish Chandra clearly states on page 165: "To strengthen his position, Udai Singh married his daughter, Jagat Gosain or Jodha Bai as she came to be called, to Akbar's eldest son Salim (Jahangir)."

NR Farooqi, HoD of Allahabad University's history department, confirms this when he says, "Jodha was not Akbar's wife but Jahangir's and she was Shahjahan's mother. Bagh-e-Jahan Ara, an 80-acre garden in Agra, used to house her mausoleum till it was sold for Rs 5,000 by the British and subsequently razed to the ground. Its records are available with the Agra Commissioner's office." If this is not enough, there's a definitive footnote on page 5 of History of Jahangir penned by the noted historian (late) Beni Prasad: 'No chronicler mentions the Rajput name of Jahangir's mother. Sujan Rai (Khulasat-ut-Tawarikh, Delhi edition, 1918, page 374) alone mentions the official designation.'

The existing belief might have some thing to do with 'Mughal-e-Azam', where Durga Khote played Jodha Bai and also every guide at Agra will tell you Akbar's wife was Jodha Bai. The existence of structures like Jodha Bai Ka Rauza in Fatehpur Sikri also confirm the existing belief. However this is a matter of political debate in Rajasthan, with various Rajput organisations taking the field against the former royal families of Jaipur and Kishangarh about exactly which Rajput princess married which Mughal emperor.

≥BimalV

Jodha Bai : Akbar's Wife or Daughter-in-Law?

Who was Jodha Bai (or Jodhaa Bai)? If she existed at all, it was marium came from arab country lived at amer and as per and not his wife as claimed by rajputs of rajasthan after seeing portrayal of Jodha bai as wife of Akbar in Ashutosh Gowarikar's upcoming movie - Jodha-Akbar. Hrithik Roshan plays Akbar and Aishwarya Rai plays Jodha Bai in Gowarikar's Jodhaa - Akbar.

Untitled

Mariam-uz-Zamani is thought to be the Akbar's caucasian wife (possibly Armenian) can someone verify this? --Vyzasatya 17:49, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Vivek 09:08, 22 April 2007 (UTC) Could someone confirm whether Jahangir was the son of Mariam-uz-Zamani, or of Jodhabai? I believe the two are different people and..................................

I think yes its the Armenian wife. If Jodhabai and her are NOT the same.

No, Mariam-uz-Zamani was not Armenian. She was the daughter of Raja Bhar Mal of Amer. "Mariam-uz-Zamani" was a title conferred on her,laso known as "Jodha Bai". Jahangir was indeed her son.

--Malaiya 01:43, 24 June 2007 (UTC) Jodhabai was name of wife of Jahengir who was sister of Man Singh. jehangir was son of Harka bai who was given name of Mariam-uz-Zamani by Akbar after marriage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.182.127.52 (talk) 17:51, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

The mother of Jahangir to be Raja Bharmal’s daughter was recorded only in one book of the Mughal era. That book is Khulasat-ut-Tawarikh, written by a Punjab Historian Sujan Rai Bandar, during Aurangzeb’s reign in 1695.There is no detailed information about the author.He had written about the history of Hindustan, in which Mughal history was just a part of the book.Sujan Rai mentions in his book that the Amber princess, the third wife of Akbar was Salim’s mother.First of all Amber princess was the fourth wife.He had missed the second wife who was the granddaughter of Munim Khan whose wedding was celebrated in 1557.He had missed it because he was not in the Mughal court.Since most of the information in this book is authentic and no other book reveals the identity of Jahangir’s mother historians are forced to believe Sujan’s statement of Jahangir’s mother.

Jahangir refers his mother as Mariam Zamani in his memoir and does not give her identity.He mentions Raja Bharmal’s daughter to be a lady in his father’s harem. He does not say Rajabharmal’s family members as his mother’s relation(The Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri; vol 1 page no 15)

The Rajput Chronicle is silent about it.

Akbarnama doesn’t reveal the identity of Jahangir’s mother.It is very astonishing.But the same Akbarnama mentions about the Jaisalmer princess, wife of Akbar giving birth to a girl baby and passing away in 1 year(Akbarnama Volume III page 283), but is silent about Amber princess giving birth to Salim

A firman of Mariam Zamani was traced.In that firman also her identity was not given.The name is mentioned by title Wali nimat Mariam Zamani, Mogolmother of Jahangir.

Salim’s mother was referred to as a royal concubine of Akbar in the book “The Empire of the great MongolBy J.S.Holland”.It is a latin book written by Joannes De laet a Geographer in the year 1631 during Shahjahan’s reign. Historian Vincent has a opinion that Delaet has copied it from certain reliable Persian chronicle, but certain historian doubt the authenticity of the book.page no 147-148-REF-Full text of “The Empire Of The Great Mogol” – Internet Archive — Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.76.63.144 (talk) 18:50, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Heera Kunwar alias Mariam-uz-Zamani

She was indeed wife of Akbar and mother of prince Salim (later Jahangir) Akbar was a tolerent emperor.One should say he was not an orthodox Muslim.Some historians even doubt he was really Muslim or not? During his later yers he propheted a religion named Din-E-Elahi, which means "religion of the God".It must be brought in mind that no Muslim can propagate another religion.He himself followed some of Hindu rituals, like Jharoka Darshan, Tuladan,Tilak on his forehead,and Mala Jap.He had wives from Muslims,Hindus,and Christians.Not only Heera Kunwar but everyone of them was free to follow her religion in the royal palace.Some orthodox persons trying to mould the historical facts in their interest.This should not be allowed.The palace of Mariam-uz-Zamani is still present at Fatehpur Sikri, where Jahangir was born.The place of her worship is still present there.It is very evident from history that she followed her religion during her life time.What happenned after that is immeterial.If some persons do not agree with this theory they should come forward with actual facts which can be proved.

--Shivbramh (talk) 17:57, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Did Mariam-uz-Zamani convert to Islam after her marriage to Akbar?

Akbar the great officially married 3 princess, they were his chief all powerful Queens.. 1.Rukaiya sultana begam 2.salima begam (Widow of bahram khan) 3.Harka bai or Marium uz zamani from arab country later stayed at amer He loved his chief Queens and respected them from his bottom of heart. He hate to spend time with others Servents and sub wives. there had strong relationship with his chif Queen marium uz zamani who is consider as his most of children's mother and was atfirst a hindu princess later at middle age, She converted Islam without any force of her family, she accepted Islam by her own willing. She also visited the holly Makkka Sarif at the last age. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SSA786 (talk • contribs) 13:49, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

As I see the issue, Mariam-uz-Zamani seems to have been required to convert to Islam when she married Akbar. Yet it seems that Akbar allowed her to keep practising her Hindu faith. So, how should Mariam-uz-Zamani be regarded after her marriage to Akbar? Should she be considered to be a Muslim or a Hindu? Is there clear evidence that she voluntarily converted to Islam during her life living with Akbar? --Chewings72 (talk) 05:25, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

ssa786 - I have reverted your changes. Your changes refer to a personal blog - a well written and illustrated blog - but a personal blog nevertheless. The blog entry you have used has no references to reliable sources. So to meet Wikipedia standards I have removed your changes. Please don't try and put the changes in again unless you can provide reliable sources for your material. Thank you. --Chewings72 (talk) 01:26, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Hello. A personal blog is not a suitable reference for editing a article. The blog is definitely well-written but it is personal opinion. It cannot be relied upon blindly. Also, the blog entry has no references to reliable sources. Mariam-uz-Zamani is a historical figure. The information given presently in the article has been sourced from various authentic books and news articles from reputed media houses. Please don't disregard it in favour of a personal blog. There is no historical account mentioning her trip to Mecca. The websites cited by you are informative about the rules observed over there but don't mention anything about Mariam-uz-Zamani being a Muslim or partaking a trip to the holy city. She owned ships carrying people to Mecca, that doesn't mean she actually went there or was a Muslim. Therefore, I saw it fit to remove your edits. Before editing the article again, please reply here. A continous reversion of the article is needless. A discussion is needed before adding this information. Ananya 2012 (talk) 16:53, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Ananya 2012 there has possibility to change religion but not after her marriage.She changed before died means last age.because it is clear that Akbar Allow his hindu wives with their customs.it is very confused question because there hadn't properly any evidence about . Mariam-uz-Zamani in any where.just common information we get that She was Amer Princess and married to Akbar, may be the mother of Jahangir.But according to research cules like she was very powerful empress and this power gave her husband Akbar.Her son gave her most respect and support, then why she buried according to Islamic custom.As per her last wish was that "buried (her )closer from her husband. That means she loved his husband though she was Hindu princess that love for her husband defined that Akbar gave her full support and Emperor jahangir showed to respect her mother all wishes.according to her wishes he allowed her to visit Mecca and she performed hajj that comfrom Info have gotten many where(books),She was powerful Empress,any one couldn't neglect her order.According to Evidence she is most known and most powerful wife of Akbar now. She involved in political issues and businesses trade etc all activities which wasn't allow others wives . So any one can say that Akbar gave her most power. Akbar. the great chief 3 wives perfromed hajj in Mecca,salima and Rukaiya sultana performed hajj. when Akbar the great was Alive. But that time Marium uz zamani couldn't go with them because that time she was Hindu.but At the age of 71 she performed hajj in 1613,that means that time she was Muslim means she converted Islam that time.if it isn't satisfied to you guys. So now is Question that Why she buried as Islamic way?? or why she allowed in Mecca? if you said that she was ship trip ,even their have also a question? Mecca whole city place even river is or was locked by Muslim from beginning day.According to most approved Evidence that she buried and as per for her last wishes jahangir buried her closer to Akbar and she only got that luck (not any others wives) so that means No one hadn't any complain about it because She was Chief empress begam shiba.So all things / evidance make her life diagram that way

"Bron as Hindu but Died as Muslim " there haven't any approved Book about . Mariam-uz-Zamani.Both Akbarnama and jahangirnama Called as . Mariam-uz-Zamani not anyothers name.Have any reliable evidence about Mariam-uz-Zamani,No. just collected that all info by researching mankind .so you should write in wikipedia the all info which all can gotten by search because wikipedia is a wide information site,here should exist all things all info which can take anyone by search in web, it is the rules of wikipedia.wikipedia dont give any normal public editors that responsiblity to Make a biodata about anyone whose history isn't clear but you guys directly made your own making info in. many where like Marium-uz-zamani there had confusion about her religion, then why u can post here her religion. wikipedia give the power of public editor that make a biodata which is seen in every site or book which isn't clear info you shouldn't write it .For that reason people isn't use wikipedia except famous personality because famous personality side is observed by wikipedia main side and any public administrator or editor isn't allow to edit this sides.so that side is fully safe to gain true knowledge. You and Me wasn't bron that century ,we cant say exactly what happened. so shouldn't add confusion info in any historical characters. there have any exactly evidence about Marium-uz-zamani which you all published about Marium-uz-zamani here.for that reason anyone cant believe wikipedia's info they just searching all things in website and Google and try to find books. because public editors(any countries public can easily edit wikipedia's unfamos topic like Marium-uz-zamani )isn't a person who know about that facts and you are not the students of history, haven't any degree about history .totally depending on articles,website etc sides.public editors appoving so that wikipedia isn't reliable source to every one.

here you blocked wikipedia side where you public editor cant write or change said-----

Akbar when some rajput entered his harem,they converted Islam.

Mecca

despite the fact that non-Muslims are prohibited from entering the city.

so that reason people cant depend wikipedia because it's a public editor side.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Nfrobsten (talk • contribs) 04:38, 30 December 2013 (UTC) 

There are books stating she remained a Hindu through her life. References are available supporting the fact that she was a Hindu. You are right that not many editors on wikipedia are expert on the subject, thus we have to rely on books and articles. We have to give them as sources while editing an article. Otherwise anybody can write anything here. The information that she was a Hindu till the end of her life is widely accepted. If you believe she converted anytime during her lifetime, please give a reliable reference stating so. It won't be accepted here before that. There is no account which talks of her trip to Mecca. Salima and Ruqaiya did go along with other muslim ladies in the harem but Mariam uz-Zamani wasn't one of them. Salima Sultan died in 1612 so her being part of the Mecca expedition in 1613 of which, supposedly, Mariam uz-Zamani was a part of, is highly improbable. Hindu festivals like Diwali, Holi and Raksha Bandhan were celebrated with fervour in the age of Akbar and Jehangir. This shows their Rajput wives didn't convert after marriage. The burial of Mariam uz-Zamani is sometimes cited as the proof that she converted to Islam. But the concept of a burial is not alien to Hinduism. In some regions of the country, Hindu people bury their dead instead of cremating. Rajputs were known to build cenotaphs for their dead. Mariam uz-Zamani was a Rajput and it is possible her burial was in the line of the same custom. Ananya 2012 (talk) 07:18, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Pease do not take reference from mariam zamani blog created by abbay for commercial purpose.It is a fraud site.One example is Daniyals mother.The site is quoting Mariam Zamani to be Daniyals mother.But Akbarnama clearly qoutes Daniyals mother died during Akbars period while Mariam zamani outlived Akbar.This site is twisting true facts just to earn money.Reading this fake site viewers please do not alter wikipedia.Wiki should have true historical facts. I hope the government looks into this fact and punish people or the site owners for distorting History and making money.Please many people sign petition to forward to the government to take action against this fake web site and remove it from the net.By this the future generation will know real history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.57.56.170 (talk) 11:24, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Her real neme is Jodha Begum.also ruqaiya sultan begum isn't the empress consort of akbar.mariam uz zamani is the empress consort.she is jodha begum Empress Jodha Begum (talk) 04:53, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Lol stupid.Empress Ruqaiya sultan begam was akbar's cheof consort. Firangim (talk) 15:47, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

All have just used Mariam......

ALEX RUTHERFORD

In Alex Rutherford's breathing living novel series----The Empire Of the Moghul,the 3rd part Ruler of the World---which I-myself have read,Akbar's rajput wife and his first son's mother is mentioned as Hira Bai.Ruler of the World....There it is clearly mentioned under the topicHIRA BAI(CH.8). So it is my earnest question,how can our respected author Alex Rutherford mention Akbar's wife as Hira Bai??. As we know,nowhere in the Akbarnama/Ain-i-Akbari,Abu'l Fazl have mentioned the Royal Empresses name as Hira Bai/Harkha Bai/Jodha Bai...Just the author have mentioned an article under the spicy title of HISTORICAL NOTES---WHAT THESE HISTORICAL NOTES ARE?? dO THE AUTHOR HIM/HER-SELF researched and depicted Akbar's wifes' name as 'Hira bai'? NO...just mentioned as 'a NOVELIST'S FREEDOM'---

SALMAN RUSHDIE

Salman Rushdie---one of the jewels of English literature had published his historical novel--THE ENCHANTRESS OF FLORENCE,Akbar's wife and Jahangir's mother is mentioned as 'Jodha Bai'. The above-mentioned novel is considered to be the most researched book and 'which requiredyears and years of reading by himself(Salman Rushdie)The Enchantress of Florence.....So,there it is mentioned Akbar's wife and jahangir's mother's as 'Jodha Bai',so by stamping 'Jodha Bai' as a MISNOMER ,aren't we insulting and proving the glorious writer as a liar???

                      On the other hand,It is my question,Has Really Salman Rushdie Researched About 'Jodha Bai'???and her real name??? If yes, then why isn't he airing it up?? and if No.then why has he mentioned as THE MOST RESEARCHED BOOK???

INDU SUNDARESAN

In her 3rd book of the 'TAJ TRILOGY'---'The Shadow Princess',the author have mentioned Akbar's wife and jahangir's Mother as 'Mariam UZ Zamani'. Not as Hira Bai/Harkha Bai/Jodha Bai...

              IN A NUTSHELL ,HASN'T MARIAM-UZ-ZAMANI BEEN USED AS A SPICY TOPIC FOR NOVEL??

HER CHARACTER HAS BEEN JUST CREATED AND DESTROYED....BUT HER GLORIOUS PAST AND GRANDEUR WILL ENCHANT EVERY TRUTH IN TIME........

Recent edit dispute

There was a recent edit war over this article, a content dispute mainly between two editors @Ananya 2012: and @Almeda64:.

The diff of this edit illustrates some of the dispute. There are numerous differences in play, and difficult to sort out the entire dispute, especially when it could use an expert or at least someone more familiar with the history and topic.

Additional background on the dispute is at User talk:Ananya 2012#Edit warring at Mariam-uz-Zamani. One concern mentioned there was that some of the sourcing was deemed to be from "historical novels" - the specific sources need to be identified, and verified as to whether they in fact constitute fiction or not.

It could be that specific items from both sides of the dispute could be reliable and appropriate for inclusion in the article. It is probably best to discuss each difference item-by-item, to see what warrants inclusion. Both sides may very well have some valid sourced content that should be included here. Dl2000 (talk) 02:53, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Dl2000 the edit war happened only because Ananya 2012 kept reverting this page (without any explanation) to a version which is 3-4 years old and is poorly sourced and written and filled with wrong information, gibberish and fan bias. The old version of this article over-glorifies Mariam-uz-Zamani with lots of fictional information and fan bias and poor sources. The present version of this article does not contain any information from historical novels and is properly sourced and written with a neutral point of view. If in fact it does contain any information from fictional historical novels, then I have already requested Ananya 2012 to point them out here, which the user refuses to do. The user is repeatedly removing sourced content without any explanation and is repeatedly violating the WP: REMOVAL rule.

Here are some statements made in the old version of this article which clearly indicates that it contains lots of fan bias:

• "Even in her death, she remained closest to her husband. She is Akbar's only wife to be buried close to him, as per her wish." - Mariam-uz-Zamani has never been cited as Akbar's favourite or "closest wife" or his chief wife in any reliable source. See this page in the book Domesticity and Power in the Early Mughal World by Professor Ruby Lal. The source is perfectly reliable. Only Ruqaiya Sultan Begum has been cited as Akbar's chief wife in the Tuzk-e-Jahangiri or the Jahangirnama and holds the best claim of being his favourite. Here is the direct quote on page 437 of the Jahangirnama: Ruqayya-Sultan Begam, the daughter of Mirza Hindal and wife of His Majesty Arsh-Ashyani [Akbar], had passed away in Akbarabad. She was His Majesty's chief wife. Since she did not have children, when Shahjahan was born His Majesty Arsh-Ashyani entrusted that "unique pearl of the caliphate" to the begam's care, and she undertook to raise the prince. She departed this life at the age of eighty-four. Mariam-uz-Zamani never expressed any wish of being buried near Akbar. This statement does cite any reliable source.

• "She was his third wife after Ruqaiya Sultan Begum and Salima Sultan Begum. Heer Kunwari, as mother of the heir-apparent, took precedence over all the other wives of Akbar." - First of all Mariam-uz-Zamani was not Akbar's third wife. See Akbar's marriages. His third wife was the daughter of Abdullah Khan Mughal and his fourth wife was Salima Sultan Begum as cited by reliable sources in the Akbar article. Ruqaiya Sultan Begum was Akbar's chief wife and by definition took precedence over all other wives of Akbar. The mother of the heir-apparent did not take precedence over other wives of the emperor in the Mughal Empire. Here are many examples: Bega Begum (chief wife of Humayun), Saliha Banu Begum (chief of Jahangir), Nur Jahan (who became the chief wife of Jahangir after Saliha Banu's death), Dilras Banu Begum (chief wife of Aurangzeb), Nur-un-Nissa Begum (chief wife of Bahadur Shah I), Badshah Begum (chief wife of Muhammad Shah) etc. All of these women were not the mothers of the heir-apparent but held the chief place in the harem by virtue of their status as the chief wife of the Mughal emperor. The source cited in this case is also not a proper book by a noted historian but a webpage on Fatehpur Sikri. It is hardly reliable.

• "Akbar's marriage with Heer Kunwari had far-reaching results. It led Akbar to take a much more favorable view of Hinduism and his Hindu subjects"
  "Akbar's marriage with Heer, later Mariam-uz-Zamani, produced important effects on both on his personal rule of life and on his public policy"
  "Akbar developed Hindu inclinations and allowed his Hindu wife to perform the customary rites in the royal palace. He himself participated in the puja she performed."
  Akbar's friendly relations with the Rajputs began after his marriage with Heer Kunwari. This was an important step which profoundly influenced his future policies."

She did not affect his personal or public life at all. Basically the old article repeatedly states that Akbar became a secular emperor and began favoring Hindus only after his marriage with Mariam-uz-Zamani and that she played a major role in shaping his religious policies. This is absolute rubbish. See Akbar's religious policy. Nowhere is it mentioned that Mariam-uz-Zamani affected his religious policies or his personal/public way of life. Also, Akbar allowed not just her but all of his Hindu wives to perform their rituals in the palace and he did not specifically take part in the puja Mariam-uz-Zamani performed. Also, Akbar's relations with Rajputs did not start only after his marriage with Mariam-uz-Zamani. See Akbar's Conquest of Rajputana.

• "She was the first and chief Rajput wife of Emperor Akbar"- Akbar had only one chief wife, Ruqaiya Sultan Begum, as it has already been explained before, see page 437 of the Jahangirnama. Also, there is no reliable source cited for this statement.

• "She was the longest serving Hindu Mughal Empress. Her tenure, from 6 February 1562 to 27 October 1605, is that of over 43 years." - What rubbish is this? This is straightaway copied from the Ruqaiya Sultan Begum article and is trying to compare Mariam-uz-Zamani with her. Also, she was never accorded the status of empress. Akbar had only two senior wives, Ruqaiya Sultan Begum and Salima Sultan Begum, see the relevant articles and this page [1] in The Princes of the Mughal Empire, 1504–1719 by historian Munis D. Faruqui. Mariam-uz-Zamani was secondary in importance to both of them. How can a secondary wife of the Mughal emperor be accorded the status of empress? Clearly whoever wrote this had no idea about the hierarchy in the Mughal Harem.

• There are sections titled in old the article such as "Family advancements and power consolidation" and "Political influence and power" - Mariam-uz-Zamani did have any political influence in the Mughal court. None of Akbar's Rajput wives did. The only wives of Akbar who have been recorded as having had political influence are Ruqaiya Sultan Begum and Salima Sultan Begum, see the relevant articles for more info and this page in [2] in The Princes of the Mughal Empire, 1504–1719 by historian Munis D. Faruqui. Mariam-uz-Zamani gained prominence only during Jahangir's reign as the emperor's mother and was given various privileges by Jahangir because of this. Merely issuing firmas (which many senior Mughal ladies did and even Nur Jahan did during Jahangir's reign) and owning trading ships doesn't mean that she had "Political influence and power". Did she take part in politics? No. If she did, then please state any such incident where she intervened in politics and then title sections like this. It's very misleading. There was only woman during Jahangir's reign who had political influence and power and that was his wife, Nur Jahan.

• The marriage section does not explain the background of Akbar's marriage with Mariam-uz-Zamani. The background of the marriage is given in the present version of the article which is properly sourced:

The background of this marriage was, that when Akbar was proceeding to Ajmer (for offering prayers to the tomb of Moinuddin Chishti) Bihari Mal had approached Akbar and had told him that he was being harassed by his brother-in-law, Sharif-ud-din Mirza (the Mughal hakim of Mewat), on account of Sharif-ud-din's conflict with Bihari Mal's elder brother, Suja. Bihari Mal, who had only a small following agreed to pay peshkash, and given as hostage his son and two of his nephews, but Sharif-ud-din was not satisfied and wanted to destroy him. Akbar insisted that Bihari Mal should submit to him personally. It was also suggested that his daughter should be married to him, as a sign of complete submission. Once, this had been done, Akbar asked his brother-in-law, Sharif-ud-din, not to interfere with the raja.[7]

The marriage, which was a political one, took place on 6 February 1562, while Akbar was on his way back to Agra from Ajmer (after offering prayers to the tomb of Moinuddin Chishti) at the imperial military camp in Sambhar, Rajasthan, instead of the bride's natal home in Amber (which was only 80 miles away). This was a sign that the marriage was not of equals and indicated Bihari Mal's family's inferior social status.

This is again fan bias. They are trying to hide the fact that the marriage was performed only out of Akbar's wish that Bihari Mal (Mariam-uz-Zamani's father) should submit to Akbar personally and that the marriage was a sign of Bihari Mal's complete submission to Akbar. See page 111-112 in Medieval India: From Sultanat to the Mughals Part - II by historian Satish Chandra. Also, the marriage was not of social equals. Instead, the marriage section tries to romanticize the event.

• The article repeatedly refers to Mariam-uz-Zamani as "Heer Kunwari". This is incorrect. She is only referred to as Harkha Bai [3], Jodha Bai or Harkhan Champavati in reliable sources as cited in the present version of the article.

Most of these statements are poorly sourced or are not sourced at all which clearly indicates fan bias. Also, they may indicate a source but that source does not contain any such information. There are many more false statements like these in the old article. Poor sources like Royalark.net, Mughal Edicts by S. A. I. Tirmizi are repeatedly used - Almeda64 (talk) 13:33, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Her only named recorded in rajput sources is harkhan champavati but some fans of this fake story have out of nowhere broght this heer kunwari which was not at all her name.Just because harkhan champavati or harkha bai hardly sounds any romantic that's why they try to find an easy escape in heer kunwari lol. Firangim (talk) 15:52, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

The people stating there is no reliable source must know that there are a plethora. Tawarikh I farishta and Muntakhab ut tawarikh. These two were written during the reign of Akbar and both of them are courtiers in Akbar court. Additionally, Jahangirnama never states ruqaiya either favorite or chief wife. All it uses is 'an honored wife' much like Salima begum. Please do read historical Chronicles and then present your views. Thank you Nush1125 (talk) 01:46, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Mentioning the name "Jodha Bai" in the lead

Hey Drat8sub, just wanted to properly discuss our disagreement re whether a mention of the name "Jodha Bai" is appropriate for the article lead.

You've previously said that the name should not be included as it was not associated with the article subject historically. As I had responded earlier, I don't think that this particularly matters because the name has since become strongly associated with her, thus making its inclusion alongside her other potential names necessary. This is done in other articles regarding individuals who acquired names under similar circumstances. Consider for example Siddhartha Gotama, who only received the name "Buddha" centuries after his death. Yet the word "Buddha" is used in the very first sentence of that articles lead. Similarly, in the first sentence of the article for Timur, the subject is referred to as "Tamerlane", though again they only received this name long after their death.

It's also worth noting that according to Ngram, the subject of this article is several times more likely to be referred to as "Jodha Bai" in Google Books than as "Mariam-uz-Zamani". In fact, as per WP:RM#CM, an argument could therefore be made that the page should be moved to reflect this, though this isn't something that I would personally advocate.

However, I do understand your concerns about mentioning "Jodha Bai" without some sort of disclaimer. I therefore suggest we adjust the second sentence of the lead with the following phrase in bold:

In later centuries, she has also been referred to with several other names, including Hira Kunwari, Harkha Bai and Jodha Bai.

I believe that this will adequately inform readers that "Jodha Bai" (and the other listed names, which are similarly unassociated with her historically) are more recent inventions.

What do you think?
Alivardi (talk) 02:47, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Jodha is a not King Bharmal daughter she was a Gurjara servant's daughter later adopted by king .

Jodha is not a king's daughter . She was a servant's daughter. HistorianOP (talk) 11:26, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

This can be added again if a reference is provided. David notMD (talk) 13:36, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Regarding Marium uz Zamani being Akbar's favorite

The very and most reliable source stating it is Tarik I Farishta and the book of Badayuni. These two sources are written during the reign of Akbar not by any modern historian. Badayuni states the ginormous influence on Akbar which drew the irk of staunch Muslims like "Akbar has fallen into the trap of beautiful daughter of Raja BharMal" and "magic daughter of Raja Bharmal did on Akbar". There is no mention of any regard Akbar held for Ruqaiya begum or her influence even though Salim begum is mentioned in such regard. In Akbarnama too Marium uz Zamani is mentioned with such high praises and his other so-termed favorite on the internet Ruqaiya is not even mentioned once what to say about any praise. Akbarnama states Marium us Zamani to be a woman of fortune having lights of chastity and intellect shining in her forehead. Akbarnama Vol II states that the auspicious sister of Raja Bhagwant Das held a high rank in the harem. Dirk Collier who researched Akbar for seven years states that he found imperial records of the long and often held discourses Akbar use to have with his Hindu begum, no other wife of Akbar was permitted for the same.

It was also Akbar who despised childhood marriages and marriages of cousins and Badayuni states that it came out of Akbar's statement that there is less sexual vigor between cousins and their displeasureat having intercourse and goes on to states that childhood marriages produce much more harm than harmony and houses of such couples remain desolate. People who state that Jahangirnama mentions Ruqaiya to be Akbar's favorite are incorrect. In Jahangirnama she is mentioned just twice, once where Salim states that Khurram's upbringing was given to her and other where her visit to her parent's grave is mentioned. She is there mentioned as an honored wife of Akbar, not a favorite. There is a significant difference between the two. More than her it was Salima begum who was mentioned with regards both in Jahangirnama and Akbarnama too that too woth honor much more than Ruqaiya sultan. People need to stop spreading the concocted stories and speak the word of truth.

Also, people who term Jahangirnama as a faithful source need to know that even the translators of Jahangirnama reject the authenticity of other translations stating them to be skewed and bogus, so there is no question of us stating it to anywhere near reliable. There are 9-11 copies of Jahangirnama and each of them has a different narration than the others. The most valid question is how can one person, Salim narrate a different narration for a single biography, and even in all the copies combined, not even a single copy states Ruqaiya to be favorite thus annulling the claim of people. However, there are many other records of Akbar's and Jahangir's reign that state the daughter of Raja Bharmal to be Akbar's favorite, and even in her death she was the one buried closest to Akbar. Had any other wife been favorite she would surely have been buried close to Akbar for Akbar himself got his father's favorite wife Bega begum who was not his mother buried close to his father. Nush1125 (talk) 12:31, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Art gallery

Plss include art gallery in this page..

1)Stepwell in Bayana which was built by Jodha. 2)Paintings of Jodha Akbar available from Salarjung museum.. 3) Potraits from Doris Duke Foundation for Islamic Art, Honolulu, Hawaii, USA... &Many more.. please include them 2409:4070:4D00:3EB3:0:0:8A0A:EC0D (talk) 14:51, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Could you please provide the digital source of these paintings. Would love to include them on her page. Nush1125 (talk) 16:20, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Request

Plss remove my ip address. ContinentalXtra (talk) 08:54, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Regarding the name of Marium uz zamini

While she was an hindu,why cant we edit here as jodha bhai.its like non-hindus dominating and fading her name.its not fair.dont try to hide her religion,belief and culture.. Reyaadi (talk) 18:56, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

It was not she who was Jodha bai. Jodha bai was the name of the mother of Shah Jahan, Jagat Gosain. Her birth name is Harka bai and Heer Kunwari. Jodha bai was mistaken to be her name erroneously by the translator of Ain-i-Akbari from where it was picked by several historians and in subsequent years she began to be known as Jodha bai which in reality wasn't her name. Nush1125 (talk) 20:43, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

References for pictures and suggesting some info..

Field of Flowers: Mughal Carpets and Treasures - PDF ---- Akbar & MUZ embroidered portraits... Cotton fabric with Cotton embroidery..

Maryam zamani's baoli at Bayana -site - JSTOR

Jodha Akbar paintings at Salarjung museum will get in Google search. Musuem twitter instagram handles posted some pictures. Please have a look.

The Masjid gate still stand in its original form . This gate was built with the orders of Maryum Zaman, Begum, the mother of Jahangir.

Reference for Masjid gate : Journal of the Research Society of Pakistan Volume No. 56, Issue No. 1 (January - June, 2019) by Rukhsana Iftikhar Lahore Fort- a Mughal Monument on the Verge of Decline.

I read this long ago but couldn't find reference but just wanna share it.. In Lahore Fort in her palace there was sun frescoes or temple for her worship as she was Suryavanshi Rajkumari.

Daughters of the Sun by Ira Mukhoty connected Sun worship of Akbar to origin of Harkha bai..

After Hawkins outbid Mariam-Uz-Zamani in Bayana, one more incident has taken place..

The repercussions are soo severe for Europeans after Hawkins outbid Queen Mother, local merchants refused to lade their goods abroad until Europeans leave from India.. ( Reference : Capture of Mariam Zamani ship by Findly page : 233, Daughters of the Sun by Ira Mukhoty)..

Reference for Akbar and Muz pilgrimage Nur Jahan empress of India by Findly page number : 189

Findly addressed MUZ as charishmatic and Adventurous while addressing her death in her book on Nurjahan.

Political role of MUZ : Women were also , as we noted before , heavily involved in the political and economic decisions of inland and overseas trade , and because their ships were not only cargo ships but pilgrimage ships and international messengers as well , knowing the political protocol of every detail must have been extremely important to their success. (Reference : Nurjahan Empress of India by Findly)

Please try to add above information as well.. Sorry I couldn't provide reference for Sun temple in Lahore Fort.. but I'm confident that I read it somewhere.. Thank you. 2409:4070:4D00:3EB3:0:0:8A0A:EC0D (talk) 14:58, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much for all this information. I'll surely add all the sourced information. Nush1125 (talk) 18:05, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Suggesting some more info

One of the most distinguished early known woman traders was Jahangir's mother Maryamuzzamani, whose ship The Rahimi was captured by Portuguese in 1613 and burned in 1614. Known as a "great adventurer' and as a woman of high-spirit with a taste for the unusual.

Reference : Nurjahan Empress of Mughal India by EB Findly , page no 150.

Maryam Zamani was last in the illustrious serious of parents to die in this period and her death came , strangely, only four years before Jahangir's own.

Reference : Nurjahan Empress of Mughal India by EB Findly.

Suggesting to add information on Harkha/Jodha from the book Daughters of the Sun by Ira Mukhoty.

Akbar's Imperial harem re-organized into a fortress-like institution which is quite in contrast to the image of the reigns of his ancestors Babur and Humayun drawn from accounts like the Babur Nama and Humayun Nama.

What explains the change? A tough question to answer! The easy answer would be to attribute it to the growing influence of Rajput cultural ethos on Akbar ever since his marriage in 1562 to the Rajput Princess, daughter of Raja Bhara Mal Kachhwaha of Amber, now a suburb of Jaipur.

Reference : Mughals of India, Harban Mukhia, Page no 132-133. 2409:4070:4D00:3EB3:0:0:8A0A:EC0D (talk) 15:44, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much, I'll make edits catering to this piece of information as well. Nush1125 (talk) 18:15, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Hussain Mirza into Mariam-uz-Zamani

Child who lived for only 11 days. It would be better to merge with the mother's article. -MPGuy2824 (talk) 04:06, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Hello, I would on the contrary suggest maintaining their individual pages. There are plenty of children of Mughal emperors that died in infancy or have no involvement in the historical events however still they retain their individual articles on Wikipedia. The death of first born sons of Akbar do hold importance as many historians agree it was their death that lead to Akbar changing his court from Agra to Fatehpur Sikri. It was also their birth that gave their mother the name of Wali Nimat Begum. Nush1125 (talk) 05:02, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

The same I propose of their other twin.

Thanks Nush1125 (talk) 05:03, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Nush1125, Please read Wikipedia:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. If their deaths caused some important changes, then it can be mentioned in the article on Akbar. -MPGuy2824(talk) 05:17, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

I would like to correct Nush1125. Less than a handful of mughal children who died in childhood have their own articles, out of which only Fakhr-un-Nissa (who lived at least a month) and the twins (didn't even live a month) are the ones to have died before the age of two, hence infancy which is early childhood or as infant.(correct me if I missed someone). The rest of the children died at the age of three (well at least four actually) or more. As such there is a good age difference. I agree with MPGuy2824 about merging the twins with Mariam-uz-Zamani or Akbar, whichever preferable. I also Fakr-un-Nissa should be merged but that's an older page and would probably become another discussion.

Manavati (talk) 13:49, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Akbar's article is already much lengthy and saturated. It would not be prudent to add the aftermath of the death of his sons that lead him to Shiekh Salim Chisty and eventually move his court to Sikri. Nush1125 (talk) 06:21, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Mirza Hassan into Mariam-uz-Zamani

Child who only lived for about 15 days. It would be better to merge with the mother's article -MPGuy2824 (talk) 04:07, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Architectural Section:

Please add Architectural section separately in this page.

https://archive.org/details/in.gov.ignca.79132/79132 page number 90 and 83.

Her mosque and step-well deserves to get highlighted separately. Please add brief note. ContinentalXtra (talk) 19:01, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Feedback - Tone of the Page

To the primary editor of this page,

Hi there. Here's a feedback. This page has adequate info with copious references (great job, there!). But there seems to be excessive promotional adjectives in repetition. It is understood that Mariam was a progressive, beautiful and intelligent woman with a gazillion talents. Lines such as "she was perhaps a woman ahead of her times" are redundant, since it is clearly understood through the references to cavalry, business acumen, etc. It need not be emphasized again and again how "beautiful", "remarkable", "the most powerful", etc she was. In fact, if there are considerable references to her beauty by various historians, then a separate sub-section like "Description of her Beauty" for it alone would be better with all quotes, so that the article is more organised. If any help is needed, feel free to reach out. :)

(Panchalidraupadi (talk) 20:13, 25 August 2022 (UTC))

@Nush1125: ^ Panchalidraupadi (talk) 10:56, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Hy, recently I've tried to get rid of repetitive information and I've tried creating various sections to the best of my capabilities catering to suitable information. About the adjectives, the ones that are stated in quotes of historians or references of books that are directly cited in commas can't be altered since they would not seemingly be any more authentic excerpts.

Having said that I've recently seen your two edits and even liked one of them. The other one that falls under the business category has not been cited by any user's imagination. It has been picked from books majorly of Ellison B Findly.

About her beauty, it's mentioned in one section, either empress of Hindustan or influence one, other than that it is simply included in the quotes and references cited which you know can't be altered as per our choice. It is a piece picked up from some author or historian's work and has been stated in its true essence without any editor's interference.

The word remarkable has been again used by Prof. Findly in the book Empress Nur Jahan and again is not a work of any random editor of Wikipedia.

I would also like to thank you for your changes to the Empress of Hindustan section, it surely aided in making it tone neutral. If you have any further recommendations that would further neutralise the tone of her article please do help and make them. I would further, taking consideration of your feedback would try and neutralise her article to the best of my abilities.

Thanks and Regards Nush1125 (talk) 15:44, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Request for Main editor of the page..

Please look into the Begum Shahi mosque Wikipedia page. I re edited the page completely. Unable to add the layout section. AN Khan's book page number 124 have concerned information. And it's a request please modify the page according to Wikipedia guidelines and please add bibliography section and sfn templates for Asher Catherine book and AN Khan's book. Humble request . Thank you. ContinentalXtra (talk) 17:28, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Added the requested pieces, created the layout section, feel free to add your desired and reliable information. I shall autonomize the section if required.

Created sfn for requested sources. Nush1125 (talk) 20:06, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for your immediate response. I'm unable to add the layout details. I don't know why. I changed the name of the section. If possible, if you can add layout details in the architectural section, I will be grateful. Details in AN Khan's book, p. 124. Thank you  ContinentalXtra (talk) 04:06, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Added Nush1125 (talk) 14:14, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. ContinentalXtra (talk) 14:34, 21 November 2022 (UTC)