Talk:Margaret Hamilton (actress)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Patron

This article is in desperate need of a patron to clean it up and put it in order.

Margaret Hamilton's career deserves as much. Any takers?

I'll assist as my time permits. trezjr 18:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Fire

The anecdote saying she wouldn't have anything to do with fire for the rest of the filming, after the accident, sounds dubious; what about at the end of the movie when her broom catches on fire? I put a "citation needed" on the claim rather than removing it. Tempshill 16:44, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Movies are often shot out of sequence. The scene near the end of "Oz," in which the Wicked Witch uses her broom as a torch, was filmed before the Munchinland scene. Shall I go ahead and remove "citation needed," or would you still like one? Phoenix Flower 22:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Dedication of Wicked

In Gregory Maguire's novel Wicked which is also dedicated to her, the Witch is portrayed as being deeply concerned about the exploitation of animals in Oz.'she '

I've got a copy of this book (first paperback edition published 1996, reissued 2000), and it's dedicated to Betty Levin, not Margaret Hamilton. Do we have a source for this statement?--Susurrus (talk) 04:47, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Maguire thanks many people in the opening pages (Betty Levin included), but Hamilton is never mentioned. 70.181.68.227 (talk) 23:05, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Green face make-up

I looked through this article for the specific purpose of finding out about her being possibly poisoned by the copper (or some other element) in the green face paint used during her Witch scenes. I just recall hearing about it at some point in my life, and now I'm wondering if it was merely apocryphal in nature. Truth is, I thought she died in 1939/1940 from metal poisoning, and I'm sort of chuckling at the successful career she had after the fact. Obviously she lived! but was the make-up dangerous to her health in any manner? – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 07:11, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

If so, it was a minor issue compared to what Buddy Ebsen went through as the original Tin Man. They used an aluminum-based powder that got into his lungs and nearly killed him. When they replaced him with Jack Haley, they switched to a paste makeup. Hamilton's problem was when she was surrounded by the flames and her makeup caught fire. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:45, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I think this is an instance of conflation of true stories and urban myth. Buddy Epsen was the original Tin Man until he suffered from a near deadly reaction to the aluminum makeup [[1]]. I personally heard when I was a kid that Margaret Hamilton was originally cast as the good witch, but was burned on the set during filming and was consequently offered the role of the wicked witch as a consolation prize. Again more conflation of Hamilton's actual accident with other stories. Wlmg (talk) 15:23, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks both of you, that makes perfect sense. Bubby Ebsen's story was mixed up (purposely or not) with Hamilton, whose only problems were just the fire, it sounds like. Thank you! - Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 16:28, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

It is not an Urban Myth. According to makeup man Jack Young (page 272 of The Making of the Wizard of Oz, Aljean Harmetz, published 1977) green makeup was toxic because of the copper oxide. ""There are only two colors you have to worry about: gold and green. Gold is a sealer. It closes up the pores. And green is toxic because it is made with copper. Every night when I was taking off the Witch's makeup, I would make sure that there face was throughly clean. Spotlessly clean. Because you don't take chances with green. So, when she was burned, I knew that I didn't want to take any chances. I knew that makeup had to be cleaned off." Iamr4man (talk) 05:52, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Non sequitur

What does "Hamilton arguably played three roles in the famous film: Almira Gulch, The Wicked Witch of the West, and The Wicked Witch of the East". She either did or she didn't.

It may be true that "Only co-star Frank Morgan played more roles in the film". But what is the connection with the fact that "Hamilton and Morgan never appeared on screen together"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.15.138 (talk) 08:36, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

On the first question, during the scene where the house is flying in the tornado and Dorothy sees things through the window, she catches sight of Miss Gulch--and Miss Gulch turns into a witch on a broom. I've often wondered if that was supposed to be the Wicked Witch of the West, or if it was the Wicked Witch of the East, flying around too close to the house just before it fell on her. Uporządnicki (talk) 15:36, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Disambiguation

I was thinking that we need a disambiguation page to disambiguate Margaret Hamilton the Actor with Margaret Hamilton the Scientist who was a Software Director for the Apollo Lunar program.

I don't know if the community feels she was important enough to warrant replacing the Actor as a primary topic or if we just need a disambiguation link on this page. I tend to thing she is important enough, if not famous enough.

I will probably do it in a few days if no one objects. 216.115.131.234 (talk) 20:10, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Done. --April Arcus (talk) 01:12, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

This move was objected to by BMK and subsequently discussed on my talk page. I have copied the discussion below, so that other editors can find it easily in the event that it becomes relevant in the future.

The following is an archived discussion. Please do not modify it.

Your undiscussed and therefore non-consensual move of "Margaret Hamilton" to "Margaret Brainerd Hamilton" was not a good idea. "Margaret Hamilton" is the WP:COMMONNAME of the actress, who was never known by her middle name, and the other two ""Margaret Hamiltons" are not sufficiently well-known to take primacy. Please undo your unwise move. BMK (talk) 02:43, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

They are plainly of equal notability. The proposal to create a disambiguation page was posted years ago and went without objection. My move constitutes a good faith edit under WP:BOLD. Please remove the request for speedy deletion from Margaret Hamilton. --April Arcus (talk) 02:54, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

No, they are not "plainly of equal notability". One is well-known to the general public, and the other is only known within a small, circumscribed community. Your judgment in this matter was poor. It was not I who placed the speedy delete tag, but I totally agree with it, and will not remove it. BMK (talk) 02:58, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

About that request from "years ago" (2011), there was absolutely no discussion about it, so it's highly inappropriate to take it as something to act on as if the community had agreed to it. BMK (talk) 03:06, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I came to Wikipedia looking for information about the accomplished computer scientist and was surprised to find an actress who had appeared in a single notable role as the default landing destination. I repeat that the move had already been mooted and received no objection for some time and dispute your assertion that there was some onus on me to achieve consensus before acting — it is not even clear to me whose consensus I should have sought! A WikiProject? Some subset of editors or administrators? WP:BOLD permits editors the latitude to use our best judgement in situations such as these, and I have done so. --April Arcus (talk) 03:20, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

If the use of the middle name is the crux of your objection, I invite you to move Margaret Brainard Hamilton to Margaret Hamilton (actor) or somesuch. --April Arcus (talk) 03:22, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

The rule of thumb here is that the primary target gets the primary article name, and you're not going to find many people here who will support your notion that the actress is the primary target.

As for your removing the CSD tag from the article, please note the very clear directive at WP:CSD:

The creator of a page may not remove a speedy deletion tag from it.

Since you are the creator of that redirect page, it was improper of you to remove the tag. You can contest the change, but the proper way to do it is to allow the pages to be returned to the status quo ante and then discuss the potential move on the talk page. If you get a consensus for the move, fine, otherwise things stay as they are. BMK (talk) 03:36, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for that information. Please note your objection on Talk:Margaret_Brainard_Hamilton#Disambiguation and let us continue this conversation there, rather than on my talk page. --April Arcus (talk) 03:40, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I have initiated a compromise, based in part on your suggestion. I moved "Margaret Brainard Hamilton" to "Margaret Hamilton (actress)", per your comment above, but I also changed the redirect at "Margaret Hamilton" to point to the actress article. People looking for the articles about the scientist or the Australian publisher will see the hat note there which tells them to look for other people of the name "Margaret Hamilton" at "Margaret Hamilton (disambiguation)" (to which there is a link). This leaves the actress as the primary target, fulfills WP:COMMONNAME, and allows those looking for other Margaret Hamiltons to find them easily.

I hope this will settle the matter. BMK (talk) 03:48, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

I am satisfied with this compromise. --April Arcus (talk) 04:06, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Wow! What a bad idea this was. The actress was clearly the primary topic for Margaret Hamilton. What was the rush here? Why couldn't this discussion have been left open for a few days for some others to comment? Now I see that April Arcus has been improperly disambiguating the actress to Margaret Brainard Hamilton instead of Margaret Hamilton (actress). -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:34, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Her changing of the links happened before the compromise I implemented, not after. As for the compromise itself, I agree that the actress should be the primarty target, which is still the de facto case since "Margaret Hamilton" redirects to "Margaret Hamilton (actress)". I've never had strong feelings about redirects being "second class citizens" -- as long as the reader is sent to the right place, it doesn't seem to me like it matters much. However, I have absolutely no objection to anyone who is dissatisfied with my compromise re-opening the issue, perhaps with an RfC. I don't particularly think it's necessary, or worth the energy, but, obviously, others feel differently. BMK (talk) 02:15, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

I've rolled back the majority of the "Magaret Brainard Hamilton" piped links back to "Margaret Hamilton", on the theory that an unpiped link is better than a piped link. BMK (talk) 02:34, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Good theory. However, I'm always bothered by this "clearly the primary topic" kind of stuff, and certainly here I don't see it--as far as I'm concerned they're all equal (we're all Americans here!), and "Margaret Hamilton" should not redirect to one single one. Drmies (talk) 02:38, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

No, with all due respect, I think this is one clear-cut case where the primary is obvious.. The computer scientist is virtually unknown outside her own small world, and the Australian publisher of children's literature is completely unknown outside of her even smaller world. Only the actress has the widespread worldwide fame, thanks in large part to The Wizard of Oz, which justifies her being made the primary target. But a consensus of editors can decide that at an RfC, or we can keep the structure I initiated. Pointing "Margaret Hamilton" to the DAB page would just be a cop out, though, IMHO.

Just to provide a little data here, there are 421,000 Google hits for "Margaret Hamilton".

Of these, something on the order of 100 - 200,000 are for the actress:

• "Margaret Hamilton" Oz - 199,000
• "Margaret Hamilton" actor - 105,000
• "Margaret Hamilton" Hollywood - 116,000

For the mathematician/software engineer, there are around 45 - 72,000 hits:

• "Margaret Hamilton" Apollo - 59,400
• "Magaret Hamilton" mathematician - 45,200
• "Margaret Hamilton" software - 71,900

The publisher gets around 6,000 - 54,000 Ghits:

• "Margaret Hamilton" publisher - 54,000
• "Margaret Hamilton Books" - 6,140
• "Margaret Hamilton" AM Australia - 46,200

BMK (talk) 09:57, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 24 March 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No move. The dab page will be moved to the base name. Cúchullain ^t/c 01:35, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

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Margaret Hamilton (actress) → Margaret Hamilton – latter redirects to former and Margaret Hamilton (disambiguation) exists – —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:05, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:35, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

• @Koavf: Or move Margaret Hamilton (disambiguation) to Margaret Hamilton? Is the actress the most notable? Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:35, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose move dab to baseline In ictu oculi (talk) 08:06, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
• Margaret Hamilton (actress) (1902–1985), an American film character actress.
• Margaret Hamilton (scientist) (1936–), an American software engineer.
• Margaret Hamilton (publisher), Australian publisher of children's literature
• Oppose, The scientist is certainly of very significant note. GregKaye 08:29, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support - See the Ghits data two threads above. The actress is clearly the primary. BMK (talk) 08:34, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose, The scientist has thrice as many hits than the actress, [2] in last 90 days. Rather we should move the dab to Margaret Hamilton. – nafSadh did say 20:58, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - per Nafsadh (talk · contribs). - Denimadept (talk) 06:54, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
• Comment I'd like to ask the "Oppose" voters two personal questions, setting aside everything else:

Aside from in this discussion, have you ever heard of Margaret Hamuilton the computer scientist?

On the other hand, have you heard of Margaret Hamilton, the actress who played the Wicked Witch of the West in The Wizard of Oz"?

BMK (talk) 07:08, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

one problem

1. She died in 1965. But an accompanying photograph shows her appearing as Madame Armfeldt in A Little Night Music nine years later (the date given in the caption to the photo is 1974). Clarification? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.221.48.224 (talk) 23:12, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

1) died in 1985. - Denimadept (talk) 08:06, 25 November 2018 (UTC)