Talk:Man of Constant Sorrow

Note about Title, Name, Inclusion, and Parody

[Added that the title in the O Brother film is slightly different, eg prefixed by "I am a", which partly explains the title of the parody.

Soggy Bottom Boys & Bob Dylan

What's this comparison of the film version of the song to Dylan? There's really nothing to discuss. The film clearly makes use of Ralph Stanley's lyrics and vocal style and has nothing to do with Dylan's version. --Dystopos (talk) 21:19, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

The same question brought me to the talk page. It suggests that Dylan's version is the original, which of course, it isn't. The relevant comparison would be to the original. Truprint (talk) 22:17, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Say what you will: I have a hard time believing that they would have picked out this particular song without Dylan's version being out there, but I could be wrong. Shocking Blue (talk) 17:46, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Fame Claim

(The below 'claim to fame' was removed from Article Page by Joe Hepperle (me). I am putting it here in case it does have some value somewhere. This is in lieu of just deleteing it out-of-hand. If no other editors can find any related value in it, it can probably be deleted completely.)

Begin

"Wikipedia is the Encyclopedia that people can contribute. I have no money to donate to their cause. Let me contribute this:

Many of the first settlers of Kentucky came through the Cumberland Gap with Daniel Boon. Many who followed were fled conditions of involuntary servitude as an apprentice. They were often welcomed by the new settlers as their trades were in demand. Many near the Ohio boarder where Quakers and many Quakers who opposed slavery left the south to head north. Some claim that the song contains lyrics to direct escaped slaves to safe houses on the underground railroad. These lyrics in the movie include"

"For six long years I have been in trouble, no peace on earth here have I found"- reference to the average of 7 years of indentured servitude by one escaping his sale as an apprentice to a tradesman.

"for in this world I am bound to ramble. I have no friends to help me now."- a reference to the Quakers or the society of friends who often served as conductors on the underground railroad.

"Fare thee well, my own true lover, I never expect to see you again"- A reference to the pain involved with a person who chose to "run".

I have no citations to back up these claims. My family hails from Campbell Kentucky and I was told by a 99 year old man in Milwaukee Wisconsin that his parents told him that the green bay toll road was a land route on the Underground railroad, that a series of bells were rung from farm house to farm house to toll house as a warning system, and that the song "Man of Constant Sorrow" played as an instrumental was a code to suggest to escaped slaves where they could find safe harbor. I was told this before the film came out.

But NOTHING of this testimony given to me can be confirmed in records at the Wisconsin Historical Society which does contain detailed accounts and names of conductors on the Underground railroad that were published after the civil war. No record exists to support these claims. I can find no evidence from any state historical society to show that a melody alone, played as an instrumental was used as a code on the underground railroad. The point was stressed to me however, that the melody line itself was the code. With all due respect to Wikipedia, I can find no source to footnote to support this oral claim given to me. "

Quoted text is from the same author. Paxton Leee@(removed email address - JH)....and the content comes from testimony given to me....which may be hearsay....and cannot be confirmed from primary source documents although I have tried.

END Joe Hepperle (talk) 20:32, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Covers

I was wondering if there were any notable covers of this song? It seems very odd that a song published over 100 years ago, and which was used in a popular 2000 Hollywood film, appears to have been recorded by so few well-known artists. Perhaps I'll have to search every individual article for all of those artists who might have recorded it, to see if they did? Or perhaps a site like discogs.com might have the information I need. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:44, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

You only need to search the article history. Here is the article just before all the cover versions were removed. Personally, I think the most notable recordings should be replaced. That would include, at the least, Emry Arthur, the Stanley Brothers (who are referenced in the article, but not their recording!), and Bob Dylan. I would be inclined to include Joan Baez and Ginger Baker's Air Force as well, but maybe that's just a nostalgia thing. Scolaire (talk) 18:18, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I quite agree. I think that deletion was totally out of line. I agree the most notable versions should be restored. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:23, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Does WP:SONGCOVER have any bearing on this? —Ojorojo (talk) 20:21, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes. Whatever was re-added would needs to comply with that policy, extremely stringent though it is. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:07, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

The guideline for cover songs is found at WP:SONGCOVER. It is an attempt to realize that not all covers are noteworthy for an encyclopedia article. If the reader wants an exhaustive list of "MoCS" recordings, site like AllMusic already provide that.[1] SONGCOVER includes: "When a song has renditions (recorded or performed) by more than one artist, discussion of a particular artist's rendition should be included in the song's article (never in a separate article), but only if at least one of the following applies:

• the rendition is discussed by a reliable source on the subject of the song (not on the subject of the rendition),
• the rendition itself meets the notability requirement at WP:NSONGS.

WP:WEIGHT adds: "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources,.[3] Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight mean that articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects."

Recent additions to the article don't reflect that most of the covers are actually discussed or the subject of critical commentary, but rather only that they exist. —Ojorojo (talk) 18:41, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

You can delete any that you think should not be there, but apart from the first and last listed in the "Others" subsection, you can probably find references to the other versions in various books and articles on the song (it's really a matter of whether you want to spend time finding them, not whether they exist or not). The Ginger Baker's Air Force's version warrants its own subsection because it charted on an important national chart (therefor notable per WP:NSONGS), whether Arthur's, Stanley's or Dylan's and possibly Baez's versions (they are all important in their own ways in the evolution of the song) warrant their own subsections is arguable and may need to find chart information. These and Judy Collins', Sarah Gunning's, Peter Paul and Mary's, and Mike Seeger's versions crop up frequently in discussion of the song (therefore should not be deleted without good reason), and most of the others have been mentioned here and there.

I have no idea what WP:WEIGHT has to do with it given that all the main versions have been given their appropriate weight unless you feel that The Ginger Baker's Air Force's version should not be so prominent (but as explained, it appeared in an important national chart). Hzh (talk) 17:06, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

I have added a subsection for the Stanley Brothers' version, although I am somewhat stumped on its chart info - here it gives the charts as Folk #95, C&W #103 which appear not to be standard charts (I don't think they are Billboard charts). Hzh (talk) 19:06, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

SONGCOVER is frequently misunderstood or ignored and should be changed. The key idea from WEIGHT is that the individual covers are discussed "in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources". Covers are often added without regard to their importance or significance, making an article too "listy".(1,2) I'll leave that to you. —Ojorojo (talk) 14:29, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

I still have no idea what relevance that is to this article. If it is only The Ginger Baker's Air Force's version you are talking about, then say so. If what you are saying is your own interpretation of what WP:SONGCOVER is about, then this is not the appropriate page to discuss it. The big issue with this song is that it is not one single work, so it is very much about the evolution of the song, and how the song changes is the important thing, and the variants are therefore part and parcel of the article. When you deleted all the versions, you were in fact creating an imbalance, making the article failed in its function to inform. At the moment, the only version that hasn't its own subsection but should have is Bob Dylan's version, but it is also the most difficult to write even though there is a vast amount of literature on Bob Dylan. Most of what's listed here (apart from the 2 recordings I mentioned in the Others section) can be justifiably given here. Hzh (talk) 15:43, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

I quite agree. A true picture of the history of this song can only be achieved by mentioning the succession of cover versions. Including a mention of covers made by notable artists gives an indication of its wide impact. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:03, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

If there is a "true picture" of this song's evolution to be told to the reader then we need to cite the writer who published an account. We are not responsible to fill the publishing void if no account has been published. Binksternet (talk) 17:34, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Very grateful for the offer of help. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:35, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

The article is in fact trying to give as true a picture as possible according to published accounts (while accepting the no picture can be perfectly true). If you looked at the article after all the different version were deleted here, you wouldn't have any idea that this song was in fact very popular in the 1960s, and that the best known versions then sounded rather different (for example have a listen to Judy Collins' Maid of Constant Sorrow). It was extremely unbalanced, with Emry Arthur only mentioned briefly, while Sarah Ogan Gunning which was a comparatively minor version in the history of the song (compared to, say, Dylan's which was completely unmentioned) given much greater prominence. Those who read the old article would have thought that people were recording Burnett's version, when in fact almost no one did (they were following Emry Arthur's version which is very similar to Burnett's, later Stanley's and Dylan's). Hzh (talk) 18:28, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

I find WP:SONGCOVER quite frustrating. Sometimes it seems to be saying something like "those smaller pieces of the jigsaw, near the edge, are rather non-descript and so should just be thrown away." But, then again, maybe I'm an editor who is "simply not getting it." Martinevans123 (talk) 19:10, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Even with the restriction with WP:SONGCOVER, a lot of the covers need to be mentioned because of the convoluted nature of the song's history. It is not a song that was fully formed and it diverged when it became popular. Hzh (talk) 19:42, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Roscoe Holcomb

Thanks to YouTube, the 1961 version by Roscoe Holcomb's is also well-known: [2] (over 879,000 views so far), although to add it to the article some kind of confirmatory secondary source(s) would be needed, of course. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:16, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

I have no problem with adding it, but we'll see first if someone wants to delete some of the other versions. No point in adding versions when someone else wants to delete them. Hzh (talk) 00:21, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Lyrics

I'm thinking of using the first verse of Burnett's published version in the lyrical variations section. I think the Burnett's version of the lyrics should be out of copyright now, does anyone know if this is in fact so? Hzh (talk) 14:51, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Charm City Devils cover of this song isn't mentioned in notable covers

why isnt the hard rock band Charm City Devils cover version of this song list in notable covers, it came out in 2012 from their 2012 album Sins.--Boutitbenza 69 9 (talk) 08:28, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

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George Hamilton IV

Recorded "Man Of Constant Sorrow" on his album "Folksy" in 1967. Writing credits are for Paul Stookey and Peter Yarrow of "Peter, Paul & Mary" as are the credits on the PP&M version. [3] 2001:56A:FA85:3800:2516:B068:CCBE:262A (talk) 01:16, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

Probably because George Hamilton IV used Peter Paul and Mary's version titled "Sorrow" [4]. Since the lyrics are just variations of previous versions, perhaps Paul Stookey and Peter Yarrow were claiming credit for the tune, which is different from one performed by The Stanley Brothers. However, I think their version is very similar to Joan Baez's, and she recorded that before Peter Paul and Mary but not released until later (Joan Baez only claimed arrangement of a traditional song). Judy Collins did a similar one, probably also before them. I'd say their credit claim is dubious, probably only valid for the song's arrangement. Hzh (talk) 02:30, 25 April 2022 (UTC)