Talk:List of shipwrecks in October 1942

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Deck cargo?

I’ve deleted the landing craft carried as deck cargo by Southern Empress (sunk 14 October): Seriously? Are we classing deck cargo as shipwrecks now? How about ships boats (launches, whalers, pinnaces)? How about lifeboats? How about aircraft carried as deck cargo; do they count as aircraft destroyed in the air war? I don’t know if the U-boat Arm actually counted these vessels as GRT destroyed in their tonnage war, or whether it's just a conceit by the source (Uboat.net) but it’s pretty thin: A ship wrecked at sea is a shipwreck; the boats it happens to have on it at the time aren’t. Xyl 54 (talk) 23:34, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
PS: Ditto for Sourabaya, sunk 27 October, and Kosmos II, sunk on 28 October. Sheesh! Xyl 54 (talk) 23:42, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

@Xyl 54: we are recording ship losses here. Landing craft are not small boats. IMvHO, it is the loss that counts, not the manner of the loss. Mjroots (talk) 04:55, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

On balance I think they should remain in the list. Unlike ships boats which are equipment they are classed as vessels and their loss will be recorded in RS, by omitting them we would have an incomplete record. The GRT point is not relevant as their tonnage would be recorded as displacement not GRT. If a modern day ship transporter sank while carrying a "cargo" of another ship we would doubtless record both in the list Lyndaship (talk) 06:52, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

@Mjroots, Lyndaship: Thank you for your comments; I think, in retrospect, I was being overly grumpy. I think I am just annoyed at sites like uboat.net trying to inflate tonnage scores, and finding that process leaking into our U-boat articles. But regarding the landing craft, even if your criteria for inclusion covers them, why list them separately? They weren't separate incidents. If the mention I’ve made isn’t enough, wouldn’t a footnote to the ship loss cover it?

Also, reliable sources? Blair’s book Hitler's Uboat War is the only one I have that describes the sinking of Southern Empress; he makes no mention of any landing craft as additional losses Conway devotes just six lines to cover all 1400 LCMs. Of the sources here, navypedia only says they were lost on a certain day, so the entry as it was for six of them is pure supposition. It’s only uboat.net that describes them as ‘warships sunk’ and lists them as separate ‘victories’. Why pander to their interpretation? Xyl 54 (talk) 01:15, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

@Xyl 54: Southern Empress is mentioned in Mercant Fleets 1939, p511. I take it that you will revert you deletions? Mjroots (talk) 07:11, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

@Mjroots:: I don’t have access to Merchant Fleets 1939; does the entry for Southern Empress list the landing craft as being sunk as well? As for what to do, it was a bold edit; if you disagree you are certainly entitled to revert it, per BRD. I thought my way was better, and now I am seeking to persuade you of that, but if you don’t see any merit in it that’s fair enough. Specifically, if the LCM numbers are needed, they’d be better all together (to save repetition) and in a footnote to the ship entry (as they weren’t sunk individually; or, IMO, at all!): something like The following vessels were being carried as deck cargo on board Southern Empress and were lost when that ship was torpedoed and sunk: LCT 2006, LCMs 508, 509, 519, 522, 523, 532, 537, 547, 620 (uboat.net). And the vessels listed by navypedia only (not supported even by ubtnet) maybe shouldn’t be here at all. Or at least, grouped together, without the speculation on how they were lost; eg. LCMs 611, 613, 632, 633, 634, 636 were reported lost; cause unknown (navypedia). Xyl 54 (talk) 23:41, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

PS: Also, do these pages list (or aim to list) every landing craft or similar vessel sunk (LCMs are about 45 ft long, and 30-50 tons)? What is the criterion for inclusion? There is a notability threshold for ships; do you have a threshold for shipwrecks? Xyl 54 (talk) 23:50, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

PPS: (belatedly!) I've taken the liberty of adding the vessel numbers as footnotes to these sinkings; I've also replaced the six LCMs listed in navypedia as losses of unknown cause: I hope this is acceptable, but if not, please revert. Xyl 54 (talk) 01:12, 4 April 2021 (UTC)