Talk:List of racing cyclists and pacemakers with a cycling-related death/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

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Re "Liste de coureurs cyclistes morts en course"

The French Wikipedia has a similar article Liste de coureurs cyclistes morts en course. I have removed the "may be extended with..." template from this article - the French article has a notice saying their article is based on this one! I glanced at the French article and think there are only a few possible names not on this one. Will take a look and find references etc. Shearonink (talk) 22:15, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

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Proposed change to Nationality in table

It was pointed out to me that the Nationality part of the first section, the Table, doesn't actually point to the nationality of a cyclist but instead points to the national governing body for cycling in that country... and now that doesn't seem quite correct to me. Unless anyone objects I am going to convert all the piped links to a national link. Shearonink (talk) 02:00, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

I did some digging to see when the nationality words were changed to the national cycling federations piped linkage - it was changed back in 2013 and the article has followed it ever since with little if any objections that I remember. I have discovered that these particular changes, however, are not completely correct - for instance it has the national cycling federation linkage for several early deaths and the federations didn't even exist at that time. Also, I did a spot-check of about 7 or 8 cycling Lists and so far as I can tell, no other cycling Lists have the piped linkage to the federations. Instead other cycling Lists have either a plain flag-icon + no country word, the flag icon + the country's name with no linkage or the flag icon + country word with linkage to the country article (which seems to be the majority of articles). I am going to change the piped linkage for all the cyclists to nations/their nationality. If anyone objects let discussion ensue. Shearonink (talk) 14:58, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Recent edits - website as author? etc,

Maybe I'm wrong (it happens sometimes lol) but some recent edits seemed to be stating that the website is the author when using 'cite web'...that doesn't seem to be completely correct to me. If the actual author is unknown then the author parameter should be left blank shouldn't it? Also, when a news report's credit is "Agence France Presse" or "VeloNews Interactive" those two entities or similar press agencies (like UPI or AP) should be considered to be the credited authors and the publisher is the newspaper/website that uses that article from AFP or VNI etc. Shearonink (talk) 23:35, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

oh well

Thanks to CAPTAIN MEDUSA, zmbro, ChrisTheDude for their thoughts and input on this List's WP:FLC. I didn't realize that the candidacy would be archived at this point and/or there was a deadline. I posted in September 2019 and in November 2019 trying to get further input as to whether or not the differing sections were the only sticking point but no one answered so I thought it was still a viable candidate. Oh well...live and learn. Shearonink (talk) 19:13, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

An unfortunate title

My first thought on seeing this list was "if you're using a pacemaker, you shouldn't be involved in serious cycle racing." Maproom (talk) 11:30, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Missing cyclists

I noticed that quite many cyclists from the old days are missing; that are in lists at other website who lists cyclists who died in competitions. As this is a featured list, I think it’s important that the list must have a general “completeness”. “articles are reviewed as featured article candidates for accuracy, neutrality, completeness, and style according to our featured article criteria.” I added already several of them; but don’t have the time to add them all. See

• stuyfssportverhalen.com
• ronnydeschepper.com

SportsOlympic (talk) 14:03, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

SportsOlympics Your quote is from the introductory section of Wikipedia:Featured articles and doesn't quite apply here. This List can never be complete, it's stated right there in the List. As the {{Dynamic list}} template on the List states - "This is a dynamic list and may never be able to satisfy particular standards for completeness. You can help by adding missing items with reliable sources." The issue of incompleteness was even addressed during the months-long Featured List process, see Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of racing cyclists and pacemakers with a cycling-related death/archive2 and look for the word "dynamic" on that page.

Around here, as the Wikipedia:There is no deadline essay says "there is no deadline", and like I said above, because of its very nature this List will always be incomplete - sadly, bikes and motorized vehicles do not mix on training runs and even during road races, there are accidents and cyclists continue to die during training and while racing from a multitude of reasons. Sources that were unavailable online become available, new books and articles are published, editors find physical materials stashed away in libraries and in state or local archives - it is on ongoing process. I'd like to remind anyone happening upon this talk page that this List has been a work in progress for many editors over many years. To see how far it has come, here is what it looked like when I came upon it in July 2010: July 2010 version and here is the first version from October 2004. It's always being improved, it's always being worked upon, it is always being added to. Shearonink (talk) 15:55, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

A word about the ronnydeschepper site... When I looked over some of its information, I noticed the columns there mention people's names and info but not the sources for the stated information. How do readers know that what is published there is true? Can it be verified, is it or he reliable? Is he an acknowledged expert on sports or cycling? Has he had books or articles published with editorial oversight? Maybe he is an acknowledged expert that I don't know about, maybe he's published books or whatever but, keeping in mind WP:BLOGS I wouldn't rely on a blog as the single source for an entry on the List. Shearonink (talk) 15:55, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, of course I see a lot of work has been done. Don’t understand me wrong. I understand that the list will never be complete. However, I’m not talking about some articles in old books or newspapers. The other lists on the internet are also not complete. But, if I take the list of stuyfssportverhalen; of the first 20 names; 12 were missing on this page. These names are also listed at other sources on the internet. So if a list of missing cyclist are “generally” known on the internet; in my opinion these have to be added. But like you said; they have to checked with reliable sources (for instance the name Charles Kerff is there spelled as Karel Kerff). SportsOlympic (talk) 17:28, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Ah yes, different spellings! And transliteration errors! The bane of researchers' existence... Shearonink (talk) 18:24, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

In terms of research and citations the closer the source is to the event in time the better. For instance if an 1890 newspaper has a contemporaneous article about a particular cyclist's career and death that is the best. Casual mentions in a 21st Century article or blog that this or that cyclist died on a track in the 1800s or in the early years of cycling with no supporting documentation whatsoever is suspect and in my opinion shouldn't be added - that's all. I deleted multiple names fairly early on (like "Pillack") because no supporting documentation contemporary to the actual event or to the person's life could be found at the time I was editing, even though the name was mentioned in the List and even elsewhere on the internet. Errors can easily creep into written history, sometimes simply because people repeat statements without checking and verifying information. To me the facts of these names aren't just numbers or bare statistics - they represent people. People with families and friends and lives who made their mark in the sport of cycling and all this isn't mere memorializing. The "fallen dead" are part and parcel of the very fabric and ethos of the sport and the writers of history - which is what we are - owe them all the verifiable truth. Shearonink (talk) 18:24, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. I don’t have much time now, but stated searching for “Perere”. I found many news articles about his death see here. But all newspapers call him “Perere”; so that will be good enough in my opinion to add him to the list with a single name. Will add him and continue later. (He is not notable enough for an article). SportsOlympic (talk) 18:43, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Another from the list. His name is Archie McEachern (not Archie McEacher). de:Archie McEachern, biography, cycling archives, book. SportsOlympic (talk) 18:59, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

?? Archie McEachern is already on the List, died May 13, 1902 while training etc. Shearonink (talk) 19:16, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Oww yes. Didn’t look good enough. SportsOlympic (talk) 19:30, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Johnny Nelson newspaper, Bio written on the basis of the New York Times, book— Preceding unsigned comment added by SportsOlympic (talk • contribs) 19:03, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Recent deletion of content & sources

Earlier this month text and references about 2 cyclists were deleted with the edit summary of They have their own pages; these details should be there. Maybe that could be true but why can't the content be in both? The content could have been copied with attribution. Anyway, I have restored the deleted content to this List - let's discuss. Thanks, Shearonink (talk) 21:01, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Why should the content be in both pages? A cyclist died and details of their death are listed on the Deaths page. Quite proper. But details about their wider career are only relevant there if they don't have their own page. In these cases, they do have their own page. Readers who are interested in their wider career can find that information through the hyperlink. If the details of their whole career are mentioned the Deaths In Cycling page, their personal page becomes redundant while the Deaths In Cycling page gets over-loaded with information that has nothing to do with that page.

' Patrick Neylan (talk) 14:06, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Might I suggest a compromise? I agree that we don't need a cyclist's entire career, but a few details to provide context to the reader wouldn't go amiss. Chris Anker Sørensen, for example:

Minimal info	Full info	Compromise
Died after being struck by a van in Zeebrugge, Belgium. According to a statement of the Bruges parquet, Sørensen did not yield on a location where he needed to do so.	Sørensen competed for Denmark in the 2008 Olympic road race, finishing 12th overall. Starting with the 2010 season, Sørensen rode under a Luxembourgian license, since he lived in Luxembourg and the UCI no longer allowed the Danish federation to grant Danish licenses to riders living abroad. During the 2010 season, he won Stage 8 of the Giro d'Italia. In 2017 he retired from road racing and worked as a commentator on TV 2 (Denmark) from 2017 until his death. Sørensen died on 18 September 2021 from injuries after being struck by a van while on a bike ride in Zeebrugge, Belgium; he had been due to cover the 2021 UCI Road World Championships the following day. According to a statement of the Bruges parquet released on 19 September, Sørensen did not yield on a location where he needed to do so.	Sørensen, who had competed for Denmark in the 2008 Olympic road race and finished 12th overall, died on 18 September 2021 from injuries after being struck by a van while on a bike ride in Zeebrugge, Belgium. According to a statement of the Bruges parquet released on 19 September, Sørensen did not yield on a location where he needed to do so.

This allows for enough information for the reader to know who the cyclist was, but not so much that it gums up the table. Thoughts? NekoKatsun (nyaa) 15:45, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

References

I changed 'accident' to 'crash'

As @Shearonink was helpful to point out, I omitted an explanation for my edit to this page where I removed every instance of the word "accident" and replaced it with "crash". The word "accident" is a poor adjective to describe the collisions which led to many of the entries on this page, and per the Associated Press, "...can be read as a term exonerating the person responsible." "In such cases, use "crash," "collision" or other terms," they went on to say. Many leading news publications in WP:REPUTABLE have largely set aside the use of the word. Dreameditsbrooklyn (talk) 09:31, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Sorensen and Rebellin

Tragic though they were, I don't think that the deaths of Chris Anker Sorensen and Davide Rebellin fit the definition for inclusion in that section. It is headed "The following athletes died while individually training for competitions or during scheduled breaks while participating in a professional race."Both men were retired from any form of competitive cycling. If they are to remain in the list, a new inclusion criterion needs to be introduced, which avoids including any leisure rider. Or a separate section, appropriately defined, should be started. Ideas? Kevin McE (talk) 08:27, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Recent edits...deleting sourced content, etc

Kevin McE - Let's discuss your changes today. Your continuing reversions against NekoKatsun's and my edits without then going to article talk are against policy. Please stop. Shearonink (talk) 17:36, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Ah I just now have seen that you posted above earlier in December about some of the included cyclists. If you wanted to change the inclusion criteria/List parameters, how about maybe doing that or proposing that instead of deleting all this sourced content? That would have been nice/collegial... Shearonink (talk) 17:39, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

It was not sourced that they met the criteria of the section. I invited discussion about whether a change in the criteria was wanted three weeks ago, with no response. Meanwhile, I do not see how you claim that MacFarland was killed while racing while re-introducing his name into the died while training section, when the circumstances of his death make it clear that being on a bike at the time was at best unlikely, and most likely entirely incompatible. Kevin McE (talk) 17:45, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

I guess you missed my apology for missing your post. Got it? Good. Shearonink (talk) 20:04, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

I "missed" it because it didn't exist. Kevin McE (talk) 22:18, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

At the top of the page is a note stating that "The athletes listed here were either professional cyclists, pacemakers, or well-known competitive amateurs who had a cycling-related death, mostly during a race or during training," but the 'training' section states that "The following athletes died while individually training for competitions or during scheduled breaks while participating in a professional race." Personally I think the Cyclists Who Died During Training section should be retitled to encompass all non-race cycling deaths, but I could also support a new section for non-race non-training deaths. NekoKatsun (nyaa) 17:39, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

For whom? Every leisure cyclist? The guy you re-introduced was 62 years old and had never been a professional rider, stretching the very loose (and therefore unencyclopaedic) definition of "well known competitive amateurs" to its extreme limit. Kevin McE (talk) 17:48, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

I support including "professional cyclists, pacemakers, or well-known competitive amateurs who had a cycling-related death", which does not include leisure-only cyclists. If someone has a known history with the sport, and then ultimately dies in a closely related manner, they should be included.

Graham Bufton "was a former British national junior road race champion and had also won three national veterans' cyclo-cross championships." Multiple championship titles sure fits the bill of a well-known competitive amateur to me. Do you have alternate standards you'd like to propose? NekoKatsun (nyaa) 18:02, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

So the definition of 'well-known competitive amateur' now extends to anyone who 'has a known history with the sport'. Is Buffon well known? Really? Tell me more about him. A tiny proportion of people who follow the sport could name former junior champions or veteran cyclocross champions. Could you tell me, without looking it up, the current holder of those titles in your nation? Meanwhile, the section that his name was in restricts entry to those who "died while individually training for competitions or during scheduled breaks while participating in a professional race." As already stated, please verify what competition he was training for. Kevin McE (talk) 18:09, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Keeping in mind your concerns about the inclusion parameters, Kevin McE, I have adjusted the lead's wording. That some of the cyclists were retired shouldn't preclude them from being included on this List.

• Even though McFarland was a professional cyclist, after reading over all the information again, I agree with his name being removed. He's in the same category as Xavier Tondo (killed in that freak garage-door accident).
• Belledin and Sorensen were both champions/winners in the sport. Even though they were retired, they and their manner of death were considered notable enough to be extensively reported on in cycling publications and elsewhere so I have added them back in.
• Cycling News says Bufton was a champion and rode for many years as a English based pro. That you or I might not be familiar with his career is somewhat immaterial. He was a champion cyclist, he was a pro, his career and his death were notable enough to be reported on in the cycling press.

As to whether some cyclists should or should not be on this List, you might not be familiar with the fact that many names have been pruned off of it in the past. And whether or not a cyclist was a professional or an amateur is not always easy to ascertain, especially when anti-professional/anti-working class prejudice and pro-amateur/"Olympic ideals" have held sway.
Hoping to address some of your concerns about names off or on the List...from its beginnings - long before I ever came across it, I don't think this List has ever been intended to become an indiscriminate repository for every person ever killed while cycling (over 1200 in the US in 2020, 141 in the UK, 41K in the world annually) but I think the deaths during racing or training of prominent, well-known, professional, Olympic champion and amateur cyclists reported on by cycling publications and in other media sources, even covered prominently in books...these deaths are notable enough to be included in this List. Cycling publications, the general press, and histories contain extensive information about the cycling deaths of prominent, well-known, amateur, professional, Olympic, champion, present/past/retired cyclists...Wikipedia should reflect that published information.
Going forward if you have specific names that you object to, would it be helpful to take them one at a time? Interested editors can weigh in, discuss the issues specific to that cyclist and we can all come to an editorial consensus together. Shearonink (talk) 23:02, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

"the deaths during racing or training of prominent, well-known, professional, Olympic champion and amateur cyclists reported on by cycling publications and in other media sources, even covered prominently in books...these deaths are notable enough to be included in this List"

Please explain how Sorensen, Rebellin and Bufton were 'training': for what? Chris Boardman's mother's death was widely reported( much more so in UK mainstream news than Rebellin an Sorensen, and I would be, Bufton): should we include familiy members of ex-cyclists?

What championship did Rebellin win? And if you cannot propose a definition that would include Rebellin, do you really want to have one that excludes him and includes Bufton, who won thoroughly amateur, non-elite titles? Kevin McE (talk) 23:41, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Kevin McE - What fun. Today another removal of sourced content from this Featured List.

It is clear to me that you don't want to listen to anything I have to say on the matter, but anyway...

Cycling News described Bufton as a pro.

Velo News states that Rebellin won a silver medal in the Olympics and also won other races.

Sorensen's death while cycling was widely reported in cycling news and in other publications.

But regardless of my thoughts on this subject it doesn't seem to matter what I say or what sources I cite or even what the published sources state or if I adjust the sections/lead/article text so the deaths of some well-known/notable/professional/amateur/retired/former/champions/etc. while cycling/training for amateur rides could be included, it is obvious your mind is made up and you want to rejigger this List according to your wishes/goals/parameters/whatever, notwithstanding long-standing content/editorial consensus. Right now I don't have the time or inclination to continue this unpleasant discussion. Congrats. Shearonink (talk) 20:54, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

It is you (and anyone else who wants people who were very clearly not in training at the time of their fatal accidents to be included in a list of those killed in training) who have not listened, as I replied to your last comment, and not you to mine.

According to the principles for inclusion that have been unchanged here for a long time, there is no reason to include Sorensen or Rebellin. The notability of their careers (although I think it disingenuous that you comment of the latter's Olympic medal without acknowledging that it was retracted for doping) is not disputed: it is simply irrelevant to the matter at hand: did they die in accidents while training? They did not, and yet you have repeatedly reinserted them into the list without any attempt to claim that they were. As regards Bufton, I do not believe that the principle of including champions is served by including winners of non-elite titles, as I saidseverall days ago, but you did not respond.

If you want to have a proper discussion about what the criteria for inclusion are (so that they meet the description of the list, not so that they permit inclusion of specific individuals), let's do that: indeed, I proposed it some time ago. But until then, let's keep the list honest and factual in how its content relates to its criteria. Kevin McE (talk) 22:14, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Can we please discuss those criteria? As you've pointed out, they're different between the top of the page (The athletes listed here were either professional cyclists, pacemakers, or well-known competitive amateurs who had a cycling-related death, mostly during a race or during training) and the "Cyclists who died during training" section (The following athletes died while individually training for competitions or during scheduled breaks while participating in a professional race). It seems to me that this is the main point of contention everyone's coming to this with, as the deaths you're removing meet the former criteria but not the latter. Does that sound correct to you? Am I understanding your position correctly?

If that's the case, then the main thing we all need to come to consensus on is how to reword the page criteria. My proposal is that we keep both the same as they are now, but add a new section below the "Cyclists who died during training" section, titled "Cyclists who died at other times". This can encompass cyclists with notable careers who died while on leisure rides while not actively in training, while training other cyclists, or while on a break or post-retirement. What do you think about this? NekoKatsun (nyaa) 22:42, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

You are understanding me: I am glad that someone is doing so. More than happy to discuss what the criteria should be, but not to have criteria manipulated to engineer specific inclusions (eg, the strange "or during scheduled breaks while participating in a professional race" so that the guy who drowned can be included). But until there is a consensus on a change of criteria, the list must fit the published criteria. Which means I am about to make removals again Kevin McE (talk) 14:46, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

So what is this list actually meant to be about? Is it to present the dangers of cycling as an activity, but only in relation to those who have done it at a high level? Is it about the dangers of cycling as a sport, both in competition and preparing for it? Or is it a reflection on the sad fact that some lives are largely shaped or made noteworthy by cycling can also be ended by it? Or is it a piecemeal collection of anecdotes about deaths which have some relation to cycling? When that purpose is decided, then we can build some meaningful inclusion criteria. And until we have a consensus on the criteria, let's not re-add those who do not fit them. Kevin McE (talk) 15:18, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Reviewing the lead, my interpretation is that the list is meant to draw attention to all the various dangers of cycling, specifically as they pertain to people who've made it their career. Strenuous physical exertion, at a high speed, while possibly sharing space with cars/trucks/etc. all present their own dangers, and the list seems to me to be drawing attention to the fact that any/all of those (or similar) can lethally impact even people who partake in the sport on a regular basis (and presumably take care to be safe).

The primary focus, in my opinion, should be on those who died during a race (or suffered an injury during the race that later proved to be lethal); secondarily, those who died while training (or, similarly, suffered a training incident that later proved lethal); tertiarily and optionally, everyone else (retired cyclist becomes trainer and is stabbed at track, cyclist drowns during scheduled race break, etc.). I'm admittedly pretty inclusionist, so I like the idea of this third category, mostly because it's interesting information, but I can see the logic to leaving it out.

What are your thoughts, Kevin McE? What do you think this list should be about, and how would you suggest it be organized? NekoKatsun (nyaa) 17:10, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

I would agree with you on the first two counts, but I think that we should have a higher threshhold than currently demonstrated: maybe something that would equate to notability sufficient to have a Wikipedia article; whether we need to separate training from racing might be worthy of discussion. As to the third, I would think that after retirement anyone is just a leisure cyclist, and as such their cycling death, while tragic, is not inherently more worthy of inclusion in this list than any other victim of a road death. Had Sorensen or Rebellin been killed while waiting at a bus stop, or as bystanders in an armed robbery, their deaths would have been reported just as much in the cycling press (Brian Robinson died recently aged 91, that was widely reported in national as well as cycling specific media), so the fact of reportage does not demand inclusion here.

Alternatively (but not my preference), if we are dissociating the list from the actual practice of the sport, rename it, include everyone at Category:Cycling road incident deaths (and non-road victims), and (if desired) have separate sections for racing related and leisure related incidents (again. Kevin McE (talk) 18:18, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Kevin McE - Re: notability as inclusion criteria on the List - If the List only includes those who are notable enough to have or possibly have an article, that would probably remove many of the late 19th Century/early 20th Century names...the literature and sources simply are not there to clearly establish Wikipedia standards of notability, many of these men might have been well-known/notable/popular in their time but getting at sources is an issue. I would say the main sources/references from about 1890 until 1940 or so - Rad-Welt & Sport-Album der Rad-Welt & Der Deutsche Radfahrer – The German Cyclist (magazine) - while reliable and viable were also daily/weekly/monthly ephemeral publications of early racing/cycling news, are only in German, and, so far as I can determine, seem to only or mostly be held at the German State Archives.

Re: the "drowned" death. I assume you are referring to Adolphe Hélière? I've gone ahead and deleted his entry. It always seemed to be that his inclusion was perhaps somewhat problematic since it could not clearly be tied to cycling - other than the timeframe of when it occurred...perhaps he was over-tired from the Tour or suffering from the odd mixtures of poisonous drugs many early cyclists took (I mean amphetamine wasn't outlawed in racing until sometime in the 1960s) - but I have always tended to keep past contributions on this List if at all likely/possible/probable.

I would also like to mention the renown and place of honor that the cycling world & press & histories & fans hold cyclists in who have died while cycling, either while training or during a race. The special place that these cyclists hold in people's minds - cycling fans make pilgrimages to Tom Simpson's memorial on Mont Ventoux, memorials are scattered seemingly everywhere over Europe's highways and byways, etc. - seems important to cycling's very ethos - the danger of "the ride" is honored and celebrated and is part of the very fabric of pro & amateur cycling's continuing existence. Shearonink (talk) 23:38, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Re notability; there is a distinction to be made between notable enough to have an article here, and actually having an article. WP:NCYC seems to be written with current criteria in mind, but equivalent race statuses could easily enough be considered. And national junior and masters XC wouldn't make that cut. Neither would a lot of the names here.

re Hélière, it is, by wikipedia standards, WP:Crystal to assert that his death was related to the Tour other than by determining his location. I agree with removal.

re a write up about the sport honouring its dead, I agree totally that a paragraph or two of text would be appropriate. Kevin McE (talk) 23:33, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

please add some more

Please google for Sule Kangangi and John Njoroge Muya from Kenya, and there was another one some years ago. Maybe someone can add them? - Hannes Schindler 94.217.143.157 (talk) 17:10, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Recent edit

This edit removed cyclists from the list. Perhaps the lead section should be adjusted...It makes sense to me that at least deaths that occurred during notable races or events like Breedlove's & Malin's during the different Race Across America events and cycling deaths that have had a major effect on the sport or on their home country like Shamus Liptrot's. (I just Googled the name "Shamus Liptrot" - he seems to be still very much on the minds of his country and in Australian news.) Perhaps if a death is widely reported that should have some bearing on keeping the entry in this List? Anyway, let's discuss. Shearonink (talk) 15:22, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Of course individual cases can be discussed, but as before, I was editing within the terms of the article's own description of what the list purports to be. I only went back to 2000, to safely stay within a time frame in which professionalism is clear (I think it is very noteworthy that in the previous 40 year spell, at least, there seem to be no cases on the list in which the validity of inclusion in terms of the status of the rider is questionable) , and I believe I erred, if anything, on the side of caution: Olsen is described as amateur, but the event as world series; Dewilde is said to have been in a race for uncontracted elite riders (although reading the source, that is not what it says); I accepted the assertion of the posting editor that Loos was professional, although Acrog-Pauwels-Sauzen-Balen BC is clearly not a professional team; and I assumed that Dare, in that he was going for an age record, was a "well-known competitive amateur". I see no evidence for such doubt to which benefit of the doubt might be applied in the cases that I deleted.

If we go by media reportage, then I suspect that we are in getting into a situation of recentism that will give a false impression, because of news availability, that cycling sport had become much more dangerous. That may lead the reader to draw unintended, and probably incorrect, conclusions, and encouragement to do that is the antithesis of the purpose of an encyclopaedia.

I also fear that this page is in danger of becoming used almost as an obituary/tributes page: of course the impact on family and friends is equal, and equally valid, regardless of the renown of the cyclist involved. But the fact that that death will now be more widely published, and responded to by cyclists that are noteworthy, does not make them any more encyclopaedically significant.

In looking at the sources before deleting those entries, I do not believe that I read anything that would suggest that any of the cases I deleted indicate "cycling deaths that have had a major effect on the sport or on their home country": perhaps you could specify the effects that you identify. In particular, I wonder what sources you have seen be which Liptrot "seems to be still very much on the minds of his country and in Australian news": I find references to a path named for him, and one remembrance of him by Alex Edmondson after a carnival event in 2015.

There are many cases listed at https://stuyfssportverhalen.wordpress.com/2010/05/21/hoe-gevaarlijk-is-de-wielersport/ that are not included here: should they all be carried here on the basis of their being listed there?

I read with sadness of the death of Jerónimo Jaramillo recently, and wondered about including it here, but, for all that it was sad and that it was nice that Caicedo acknowledged it, it really did not seem appropriate for inclusion here given the criteria on this page. I did post the death of Estela Domínguez, although her notability is tenuous, on the basis that she had signed to a professional team.

While I am happy that there be a discussion about what the inclusion criteria should be, I would ask that those I removed, which do not meet the current inclusion stipulations, be removed again until such time, so that the page might have the internal coherence and consisteny that should characterise an encyclopaedic effort. Kevin McE (talk) 12:01, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

No argument to the contrary has been presented, so I have repeated the removal of cases that seem to fail the article's own inclusion criteria. They should not be reinstated until and unless there is an agreed change to the criteria. Kevin McE (talk) 09:25, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Kevin McE Just now saw all this. Because someone doesn't respond on your timeline, your edit holds sway? Dude...for all of us sometimes Real Life gets in the way of Wikipedia-ing. It has been a week of trauma and stress and I have had and still have enough going on that I cannot give Wikipedia attention according to your specifics. I probably shouldn't even be taking the time to respond here. I am going to be blunt, however, with this next...

So I'd really like to know... What is your end-game? What changes to this List would actually satisfy you? How many entries do you really want to delete? What editing to the lead section about the criteria would make you happy? I am tired to the bone dealing with these mass deletions of sourced content. I am tired to the bone wondering what entries you will next decide don't belong. You have been deleting entries from this List ever since you edited it first in 2016...what changes will be enough to actually satisfy you? I've adjusted the lead multiple times according to your posts here and it never seems to be enough. I've tried collaborating with you on content and it never seems to be enough. Maybe take a look at what this List was like in its completely unsourced incarnation when I first came upon it in 2010. And cut the List some metaphorical slack would you? And maybe give people more than 5 days to respond before you mass-revert text back to your preferred version. I cannot be looking in on this List all the time, especially from now through the end of April. Shearonink (talk) 17:33, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

I am sorry to hear you have had a difficult time, and wish you well with whatever that entails.

Without having any way to know that you had some crisis, I believe that 5 days including a weekend is usually adequate time to allow for the person who requested a discussion at the talk page to visit the talk page.

As a basic minimum, I would want the list to have the internal coherence in that its contents are an application of its own stated inclusion criteria: please let me know in what way that is not reasonable or fitting for an encyclopaedic project.

I further believe that the list should reflect the intended criteria, rather than that the criteria should be re-written to accommodate certain inclusions. I have stated my other opinions above about where I believe the threshhold should fall, in regard to notability; avoiding recency bias and giving a false impression due to news availability; and avoiding becoming a memorial site. But I would welcome wider discussion and other voices on those criteria and the principles behind them. Kevin McE (talk) 22:22, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

"Niels De Vriendt" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Niels De Vriendt has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 June 16 § Niels De Vriendt until a consensus is reached. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:35, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Missing Manuel Abreu

Former Volta a Portugal runner-up passed away aged 34 during training in 1997 - I wish I was more wiki-savvy so I could enter it on the page myself. Struggling with the link as writing his name on the table forces it into a very different Manuel Abreu. 81.109.71.137 (talk) 15:29, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

If you put links to the incident here so that there is verification for the incident, then it could be included (preferably in English). My understanding from PCS is that he was signed to a professional team for the season, so I would suggest that he would meet the criteria. I don't believe that there is an article on him to link to. Kevin McE (talk) 16:42, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

German Chaves/Andre Simon

Neither of these men were on a professional team at the time of their death, and therefore cannot be considered to have been active professional road cyclists. The description of the section they are in is "The following athletes died while individually training for competitions or during scheduled breaks while participating in a professional race." Whatever they may have been preparing for was not a high level race, and therefore they do not meet the criteria. The argument that "both are high level enough to have their own articles" is entirely false according to WP:NCYC: the fact that articles exist does not mean that they should. Kevin McE (talk) 17:30, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

If you would look at the results pages you would see that Chaves was competing in UCI races as well as races with many professionals and spent several seasons as a full professional. So I do not understand what your interpretation of high level amateur is if he is not included. Seacactus 13 (talk) 17:44, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

I believe you are looking at the definition before the deaths in races list, not the deaths in training. The relevant section description is what I quoted above. Chaves did not have a professional contract this year, and so whatever race he might have been training for, it was not a professional one. I acknowledge that that is not specified that this only refers to professional races, but if it does not thaen every weekend racer who has been killed on their bike should be here, and the article would, sadly, include hundreds if not thousands of names. It should be noted that there was no article for Chaves, and no content from the time that he was alive that suggests notability (results sheet of a sub-UCI race, article about him winning a juniors event, announcement of him joining a CT (ie sub-professional level) team). Kevin McE (talk) 10:36, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

I see now what you mean. I do agree that Andre Simon wouldn't really meet inclusion. Perhaps we could expand the criteria to include cyclists who had at least competed professionally at some point? Eg Chaves, finished 13th in the 2018 Vuelta Aragon, which was a 2.1 level race. Since he was still racing and had at least some level of notability in the past it feels like he should deserve an entry. Seacactus 13 (talk) 14:54, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

In that case would we be including ex-pro's in their 50s,60s and later?

I do not believe that the purpose of the list is to provide a memorial list, and by including riders who do not meet a fairly exacting set of criteria, that is what it would become.

Chaves never rode for a WT or PT team,and those are the levels at which professionalism is assumed: there is no UCI minimum pay regulation for CT teams such as those that he rode on. Nor am I aware of any evidence that he was trying to get a team at any level for 2023, and he had only been at club level in 2022. Whether or not he was ever really professional (I would say not), there certainly seems no grounds for thinking that he was at the time of his death. Kevin McE (talk) 19:26, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Junior cyclists too?

I don't know if you want to add Junior cyclists too, but Jacopo Venzo died today for the consequences of a crush yesterday during the Junioren Rundfahrt (source). Martin Mystère (talk) 09:17, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Cyclists' accomplishments

I removed the cyclists' accomplishments in the section because it adds nothing to the article other than unwanted clutter. Just nothing but pointless trivia. SpacedFarmer (talk) 16:27, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Disagree strongly: their notability should be highlighted, otherwise what are they doing in this list at all? Not all cyclists are equal in terms of their careers, and the deaths of those who have more important careers will have been more notable at the time, and more remembered now.

In contrast, you seem to have a very low threshold for what counts as trivia in terms of the Japanese riders that you have added to the list that are obviously your particular interest. Kevin McE (talk) 23:27, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

My reasoning is that most of these have their own Wiki articles in. If people want to know their accomplishments, they should go to their articles or create one themselves. Adding accomplishments in adds clutter. I added the keirin riders in since they have not added in. SpacedFarmer (talk) 12:39, 8 January 2024 (UTC)