Talk:List of denaturalized former citizens of the United States

Lionel Jean-Baptiste

Does Lionel Jean-Baptiste properly belong on this list since he apparently never actually naturalized? Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 00:20, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

On page 2 of the Court of Appeals documentation, it states "on April 23, 1996, Jean-Baptiste took the oath of allegiance and became a naturalized citizen." Clarityfiend (talk) 00:37, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Great, thanks. I was going by the text that was previously on his miniprofile. Do you know the date or year of his denaturalization? Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 14:41, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

No luck so far, but I did find two other people in the course of my search. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:55, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Nikolaus Schiffer

On the main page, there is a note saying not to add people born in the US. Well, in the course of searching for denaturalized ex-Nazis, I found one case rather unique: Nikolaus Schiffer. He was born in the US, raised in Romania, and expatriated himself by serving in the Romanian army and later served as a Nazi concentration camp guard. He then immigrated to the US, got naturalized, and lived in the US for several decades before the US government took away his naturalized citizenship in 1993 and deported him in 2002. Should he be included on this list? 98.116.65.131 (talk) 23:40, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

I commented out Rms125a's restriction because the situation had not arisen at that time, but I'm all for adding Schiffer and getting rid of the comment. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:02, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

OK, whatever makes the list better. I bow to Clarityfiend's experience and erudition on Wikipedia. I just wanted to make sure that natural-born citizens were not erroneously included. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 18:17, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Colorization?

How about distinguishing the members, say by Nazis, garden variety crooks, and possibly a few other categories? The list is starting to get a bit long and overwhelming. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:33, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Or possibly highlighting the Nazis in gray? Clarityfiend (talk) 05:14, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Basil Artishenko

I have been trying to confirm the Artishenko data and have come up empty-handed. There are links with his name but nothing that explicity states, as far as I can tell, that he signed an agreement with OSI and gave up his U.S. citizenship. I understand that he died in the US in 1989, but this doesn't really confirm the above. The below are the only reflinks I could locate and none was really satisfactory:

• http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives
• http://www.nytimes.com/1982/11/13/nyregion/the-region-jerseyan-accused-of-nazi-atrocities.html?scp=1&sq=Basil%20Artishenko&st=cse
• http://books.google.com/books?id=tdzTU1Uj3zcC&pg=PA197&lpg=PA197&dq=Basil+Artishenko&source=bl&ots=b1GdoVOVmb&sig=GE8vfYpDJzihCzLvvTfZysqpHME&hl=en&ei=rLtvTb7CE4L6lweH96WSAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CDEQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Basil%20Artishenko&f=false
• http://cdi.uvm.edu/findingaids/collection/hilberg.ead.xml&section=War%20Crimes
• http://cdi.uvm.edu/findingaids/searchEAD.xql?term1=Basil+Artishenko&start=0

Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 00:21, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Maybe we could move him (and Jaroslaw Bilaniuk) to a separate table at the bottom for those whose status is uncertain. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:25, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Not a bad idea. New color needed. What's a nice color that indicates uncertainty? Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 03:26, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Footnote 22 on page 86 of this OSI document states, "As of this writing, at least 20 cases have been resolved through written settlement agreements allowing the defendant to remain in the U.S.: Artishenko, Baumann ..." Trouble is, I'm having trouble finding where this is used. Also, without the first name, we can't assume it's him. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:59, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

From the unregistered user who added the Artishenko links: "The main article I used to obtain information on Artishenko's denaturalization was an article published in the Philadelphia Daily News on March 5, 1985, which is one of the search results in Google News Archive if you search for his name. However, the link I copied apparently contained a vertical bar, which broke the table. I suggest that you try searching through Google News Archive to retrieve the aforementioned article and see if you can incorporate it properly. 98.116.108.191 (talk) 02:33, 4 March 2011 (UTC) ... Also, you can search his name in Google Books/Google Scholar." Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 04:05, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Johann Breyer

When reviewing OSI cases, I found one case which is so interesting that I'm still debating whether or not to add it: Johann Breyer (aka Hans John Breyer, according to Intelius) was born in Europe in 1925 to a non-American father and an American mother, joined the Waffen-SS in 1943 shortly before his 18th birthday, served at several concentration camps, before immigrating to the US in 1952 and becoming naturalized in 1957. In 1992, the US government sued to take away Breyer's naturalized citizenship, which it succeeded in doing, but during this process Breyer claimed derivative citizenship from his mother. This derivative citizenship claim was accepted while Breyer was appealing his deportation, and upon remand the courts ultimately held that Breyer held derivative US citizenship from his mother and that he did not lose it during WWII because he was underage when he joined the Waffen-SS and that he did not serve voluntarily after his 18th birthday due to his multiple attempts to secure leave and/or desert. Thus, he remains in the US as a US citizen, with no deportation orders active against him. Should this case be added or not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.116.65.221 (talk) 06:18, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Inclusion of people who voluntarily gave up US citizenship

I don't think people who voluntarily gave up US citizenship belong in this list. "Denaturalization" is a distinct legal term separate from "renunciation" or "relinquishment". See 8 USC 1154, for example. In the case law it always referring to the US government stripping citizenship from someone as a punishment. Anyone else have comments? I'm working on List of former United States citizens who relinquished their nationality and I'm trying to figure out what should be the proper scope between the two lists. Thanks, quant18 (talk) 17:50, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable. I'll take out the renouncers. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:46, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

List notability

Why are all these people listed? Per WP:NLIST and WP:CSC, most of the name fail notability and should not be listed. – S. Rich (talk) 13:50, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

According to WP:LIST:

"When the role played by an individual ... is less significant, an independent article may not be needed, and a redirect is appropriate. ... Another issue arises when an individual plays a major role in a minor event. In this case, it is not generally appropriate to have an article on both the person and the event. Generally in this case, the name of the person should redirect to the article on the incident, especially if the individual is only notable for that incident and it is all that the person is associated with in the source coverage. ... Many articles contain (or stand alone as) lists of people. Inclusion within stand-alone lists should be determined by the notability criteria above. Inclusion in lists contained within articles should be determined by WP:Source list, in that the entries must have the same importance to the subject as would be required for the entry to be included in the text of the article according to Wikipedia policies and guidelines (including WP:Trivia sections). Furthermore, every entry in any such list requires a reliable source attesting to the fact that the named person is a member of the listed group."

Thus the names which do not have their own articles (some of whom may be eligible but the article has not been created yet for whatever reason) are eligible for redirection to the List, and should satisfy WP:NLIST, IMO, as well as WP:NNC, WP:NRV and WP:NTEMP. Quis separabit? 19:56, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

No. I think you misread. WP:LISTPEOPLE is the proper guidance. Two requirements: 1. Notability on their own accord. 2. RS. These people do not meet notability requirements. – S. Rich (talk) 20:32, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

I can see taking out the minor criminals, which eliminates about half of the tan category. I'm leaning toward keeping the Nazis and other war criminals. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:49, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Per WP:CRIME: "A person who is known only in connection with a criminal event or trial should not normally be the subject of a separate Wikipedia article if there is an existing article that could incorporate the available encyclopedic material relating to that person. Where there is such an existing article, it may be appropriate to create a sub-article, but only if this is necessitated by considerations of article size. Where there are no appropriate existing articles, the criminal or victim in question should be the subject of a Wikipedia article only if one of the following applies:
For victims, and those wrongly convicted of crime
1. The victim or person wrongly convicted, consistent with WP:BLP1E had a large role within a well-documented historic event. The historic significance is indicated by persistent coverage of the event in reliable secondary sources that devote significant attention to the individual's role.
For perpetrators
1. The victim of the crime is a renowned national or international figure, including, but not limited to, politicians or celebrities.
2. The motivation for the crime or the execution of the crime is unusual—or has otherwise been considered noteworthy—such that it is a well-documented historic event. Generally, historic significance is indicated by sustained coverage of the event in reliable secondary sources which persists beyond contemporaneous news coverage and devotes significant attention to the individual's role."

We are talking about convicted war criminals, terrorists, et al, who can be referenced inside an appropriate article or list per WP:BIO1E, IMO. Quis separabit? 23:13, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

We're still facing a primary source problem with many names. E.g., the government says "we've deported Mr. X" without secondary sourcing. And these are low level perps, not noteworthy perps. Many of the perps' names are not covered by sources that show significant attention. This editing guidance applies whether or not they are "really bad" guys. – S. Rich (talk) 23:35, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

I didn't say "bad" or "not bad", only that we are mostly talking about convicted war criminals and terrorists who were caught and stripped of their US citizenship. To be denaturalized and ordered expelled from the US is extremely rare. We are not talking about run of the mill deportations. Quis separabit? 23:57, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

"We're still facing a primary source problem with many names. E.g., the government says "we've deported Mr. X" without secondary sourcing. And these are low level perps"

a) it seems like each entry has reliable sourcing regarding the denaturalization or deportation or removal.
b) as far as "low level perps", that seems like a subjective opinion you have formed; I don't think the whole list can or should be designated like that. Quis separabit? 00:32, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Actually it's worse than I thought. Selecting one of the non-notable names by chance, I looked at "Brancato, Francesco". Originally his naturalization was cancelled because the petition was not verified. (Major perp indeed!) The RS is the appellate court decision (primary source). (For BLPs, court documents are disfavored. See: WP:BLPPRIMARY. But I don't think Brancato is alive.) Next, the decision actually favored Brancato! (So the cancellation of the naturalization gets reversed.) To top this all off, the source itself is a dead link. (So, of course, my comments are based on what we see in the text.) Please tell me, Rms125a, do you favor keeping these names that lack WP articles? I'm just not clear on your position. (Thanks.) – S. Rich (talk) 01:45, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to go ahead and remove the "low level perps" like this Brancato character. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:35, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

I've removed some more. But my contention about including non-notable names in this list stands. – S. Rich (talk) 17:42, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

I've reverted most of your edits. First, you're misapplying BLPPRIMARY. The US government is not a primary source; it's a WP:reliable source. Second, controversial deletions (e.g. Iwan Mandycz) should await a consensus. Sorry some of your other edits were also reverted, but I don't have the time to go through and check them all. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:38, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

"Misapplying BLPPRIMARY"? It says "Exercise extreme caution in using primary sources. Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person. [emphasis in the original]" Just how am I misapplying WP:BLPPRIMARY? – S. Rich (talk) 21:47, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

These public documents are not making assertions; they're simply confirming facts. Also, while WP:SALAT is quite rigorous about listed people satisfying WP:BIO, in practice that standard is not followed, e.g. List of people of the Salem witch trials, Passengers of the RMS Titanic. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:51, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

One can assert a fact or one can assert an opinion. (And people can assert themselves as personalities.) See: WP:ASSERT. WP is using the word "assertion" poorly here. Assert "implies stating confidently without need of proof or regard for evidence" (Webster's Collegiate 11th edition). But that synonym usage can't apply because we do require evidence or proof. I can't help it if OTHERSTUFF exists. Thanks. – S. Rich (talk) 23:18, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

So you're asserting that we can't cite official government sites as reliable sources? That just isn't a tenable position. IMO, BLPPRIMARY is just poorly worded. As for SALAT, it doesn't make any sense to remove people from the Titanic and other lists simply because they don't have articles. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:07, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Actually I think that prohibiting use of all official websites is not a practical matter. But taking the role of devil's advocate, I've posted a proposed change that favors such a prohibition. (As it stands, the poor wording makes it problematic to use the court decisions.) Let's see what shakes out. – S. Rich (talk) 00:20, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Solomon Adler; refusals to renew/issue passports are legally distinct from loss of citizenship

Table entry for Solomon Adler says he "lost his citizenship when his passport expired." That makes no sense at all. All passports expire, and expiration of your passport has nothing to do with loss of citizenship. The introductory paragraph to this article seems to be confusing two completely separate matters: citizenship and passport issuance/renewal. While as a general rule, states will issue passports to all their citizens, there are a number of exceptional circumstances in which they will refuse passport issuance or renewal; that doesn't necessarily mean the person who is refused a passport is not a citizen any more. The decision to refuse to issue/renew a passport, and decision to rescind citizenship, are separate decisions and subject to different rules/procedures, and the former often does not imply the later. All mention of refusals to issue passports to people who are still citizens should be stricken from the article. SJK (talk) 08:10, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

According to his article, the expiration of his passport was not the cause of his denaturalization. I've rephrased the entry. I've also corrected the intro (I think that was my mistake) and removed Lauchlin Currie. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:26, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

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2 names not on list

Maikovskis,Boļeslavs (1904-1996) fled US 1987 to Germany; judged too feeble to be tried for war crimes in Germany Frank Walus Citizenship ordered strip from him; not deported — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.5.84.33 (talk) 11:57, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

another name:

• [Nestor Holejko] Served as a agent for the Gestapo in Czechoslovakia; postwar was a agent for the CIA; request for returning him to Czechoslavka in 1968 was rejected; Died March 1981 in Florida — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.5.94.50 (talk) 16:28, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

References

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Baljinder (or Davinder) Singh

Does Baljinder Singh aka Davinder Singh belong on this list? On January 5 2018, Judge Stanley R. Chesler of the U.S. District Court for the District of New Jersey entered an order revoking the naturalized U.S. citizenship and canceling the Certificate of Naturalization? See USCIS News Release of Jan 10, 2018 for details. 2601:196:8702:723:551:5F68:A410:F101 (talk) 18:58, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

No. This list is for notable people, not one of 1600 people whose cases being referred for prosecution. Clarityfiend (talk) 10:41, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Denaturalization Date Format

Since the list (or table) can be sorted by column the current date format does not sort correctly. Recommend prefixing dates with the date in YYYYMMDD format. 2601:196:8702:723:551:5F68:A410:F101 (talk) 18:58, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

I agree. Using the sort feature in the table is useless for the 'Denaturalization Date'. I think the dates should be formatted in the yy-m-d format if there is no other way to make the sort feature list the dates correctly, if chosen by a reader. P37307 (talk) 15:41, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Friedrich Karl Berger

Berger, who was deported from the United States on February 20, 2021 for Nazi-era war crimes, is listed on List of denaturalized former citizens of the United States. Although he was certainly deported, I'm not seeing any evidence from reliable sources that he was ever a US citizen. None of the references provided say anything about him ever being a US citizen; they all just focus on his deportation. Other references I've found that mention his citizenship at all refer to Berger as a German citizen with no mention of US citizenship ever. I'm hoping someone can find a reliable reference that Berger was ever a US citizen and therefore potentially subject to denaturalization; otherwise I may delete Berger from the denaturalization page soon. Please note that deportation is not the same thing as denaturalization. Berger was certainly deported and this is documented in reliable references; the question is whether he was also denaturalized and belongs on this page.Dash77 (talk) 00:24, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Deleted Berger from list per above. Dash77 (talk) 05:16, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

"Michael Popczuk" redirects to this list but does not list him

Michael Popczuk redirects to this list but does not mention him even one time. Does anyone know why this is? Was he previously listed but was (either with good reason or bad reason) removed from the list? Vontheri (talk) 18:21, 20 March 2024 (UTC)