Talk:List of metro systems

Add two metro systems that aren't there in operational list

Can someone add the Palembang LRT and the Tyne and Wear Metro into the operational list? The Palembang LRT is technically a Metro because it's a light metro system even tho it's an LRT,like how the Penang LRT is being put in the under construction section so I think the Palembang LRT should be in the operational list, and the Tyne and Wear Metro in Newcastle is considered a Metro system but I don't see it in the list, Thanks Metrosfan (talk) 09:11, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

The Tyne and Wear metro is probably the most controversial metro system in the world. There has been constant back n forth with it on the list. It keeps getting added, and then immediately removed by the same few people. I think we need to reopen this conversation in good faith, because whenever it gets brought up, the "veteran editors" just say, it's already been discussed, and just shuts the whole thing down. Personally I think it should be added for the following reasons:

1: it is already listed on every other version of this list in other languages.

2: light railway in the UK means light metro, such as the DLR, the Glasgow Subway, and yes, the TW Metro (in fact, the TW metro is considered be a prototype for the DLR). It does not mean "light rail" in the American sense. Those are referred to as "trams" like Manchester Metrolink or Sheffield supertrams. This, I believe is the biggest point of contention as the UK government considers it a light railway. I feel like American editors (who probably never rode the system) see that, and just consider it a light rail system in the American sense, unaware of the meaning in UK English.

3: The grade crossings mean nothing. No one is talking removing the Chicago L, Oslo Metro, or Rotterdam Metro. Anyone considering removing those systems would be laughed out of the room, so why is it accepted that the grade crossings disqualify the TW Metro?

4: The TW Metro's own Wikipedia article calls it a rapid transit system. Not only that, but Newcastle shows up on the map on this Wikipedia article.

5: The vehicles. Do these look like trams to you? The TW Metrocars cannot run on city streets. These are railcars designed for a metro system. The replacement railcars will be even more "heavy", in case this point is up for dispute.

6: This might not be as strong of a point, but they call it "Metro" in all the branding. Metro usually has one mean: metropolitan rapid transit system. Basically, it if looks like a duck, quaks like a duck, walks like a duck, and tells everyone that it's a duck, it's probably a duck.

To be fair, I might be a little biased sense I have personally ridden the entire system.

As for the Palembang LRT, I'm not too familiar with that system, so I cannot say for sure, but I looks like it also qualifies. Rckania (talk) 12:33, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Apart from the level crossings, it carries mainline traffic at Sunderland. Lots of systems call themselves metros but are not metros in the sense used here. Parts of many suburban railway systems operate very like metros in places but are not metros, mostly because of mixed traffic and level crossings. We can't call them all metros. Obviously, Tyne and Wear metro is an edge case, but it has been decided on numerous occasions that it doesn't qualify here.--Grahame (talk) 02:11, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

It is a metro system, the train is a light metro not a suburban railway, the others may be a suburban railway system that claims to be a metro system but isn't, but not this, this is a completely different case, it completely qualify here Metrosfan (talk) 09:56, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

So, are we going to say that Bakerloo and District lines, or god forbid the Tokyo Metro, don't count? They carry mainline traffic. I just wish this list was consistent, and honestly, I feel like people have strange motives for removing it. At the end of the day, does it really matter to your average person who wants to know if there are any metro systems in Britain outside of London?

So you suggest that the correct classification is suburban rail, but it is never referred to as that anywhere official. Additionally, it is not regulated like a suburban railway. This is why Merseyrail does not count as a metro. It may be separate from true mainline traffic, but it is regulated as a mainline rail, so it's not exactly a metro. This is not the case with the TW Metro. Rckania (talk) 10:29, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

How a railway is "regulated" is totally irrelevant to its operation. Merseyrail is separate from freight and mainline traffic. Timetables are not needed as frequencies are high. BTW, the Merseyrail trains are owned by the Liverpool City Region. 152.37.91.247 (talk) 23:02, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Also, a more direct comparison is Line 3 of the Athens Metro. It does the exact same thing as the TW metro, but it is still on the list. Rckania (talk) 12:46, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

The trains on the Amsterdam Metro are also the same and it's still on the list, this completely make sense why it should be on this list Metrosfan (talk) 13:29, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Exactly! I'm with @Metrosfan. Keeping the TW metro off this list for the stated reasons is just inconsistent. This list should remain consistent. Rckania (talk) 14:54, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Tyne and Wear Metro is metro system by all sensible criteria. It is completely self-contained. It has its own ticketing system. It caters for passengers going to, from and around Newcastle. It does not carry freight. One of the distinguishing points is that the service frequency is such that users don't normally consult the timetable. (Many users don't even know that the timetable exists.) OrewaTel (talk) 23:04, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

ive added the Tyne and Wear Metro along with the Elizabeth Line here, and apparently it haven't been removed, it only got did once but someone else re-added it and then it was never removed again Metrosfan (talk) 13:15, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. But the Elizabeth Line is not a metro line. It shares tracks with other network rail trains and uses heavy rolling stock Rckania (talk) 21:46, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

1: As discussed previosuly, this doesn't mean anything.

2: It doesn't matter what government consider. If tommorow some government consider a bus system a metro system, it will still be a metro system. Personal work is not a valid source, therefore, having riding it is by no mean a valid argument.

3: Chicago L, Oslo Metro, or Rotterdam Metro. Those metro system have most lines fully segragated (or at least one that is a full metro line). TW Metro shares a good part of it's tracks with mainline trains, which could mean it's... a mainline train service.

4: As said above, his is not a valid source

5: It's not because it's not a tram that it's a metro.

6: There are tons of cities calling their BRT, trams or suburban train systems metro. It doesn't make it a metro

As all the above arguments are not valid, and consensus have previosuly been found regarding that matter, I remove the TW metro from the list. If TW metro desserves inclusion, please provide valid and sourced reasons.

Capt'n London (talk) 14:51, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Korail

How come Korail was removed here? If we are gonna end up counting it twice, what are we supposed to do? Are we just gonna include the data of Korail into the Seoul Metropolitan Subway network? Because those lines qualify for the list Metrosfan (talk) 00:12, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Korail is a mainline operator. It's a heavy rail system, not a metro system. Rckania (talk) 18:04, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I thought metros were heavy rail? 2001:A62:142C:9802:C15C:FFA8:C202:7093 (talk) 03:39, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Line sharing between systems and operators

Recently, I found out that maps of the Incheon Metro (such as this one: https://www.ictr.or.kr/main/railway/guidance/map.jsp) include Seoul Subway line 7 on them, and also, that the Incheon Transit Corporation has partial ownership of line 7., and that all three lines have the same fare structure, effectively making them one "system". The Circular line in New Taipei and Taipei in Taiwan, and the Guangfo line between Guangzhou and Foshan in China are also other examples of this occurring. So, should these types of lines be listed below both systems' entries, or only one of them? Nonusme (talk) 13:55, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I was honestly asking about Korail Metro Lines aswell cause someone said if they stay on the list we will count the lines twice Metrosfan (talk) 23:16, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Well, the Incheon Subway is branded as part of the Soeul Metropolitain Subway. It should all just be one entry. Rckania (talk) 18:02, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

If that's the case, should the Incheon Subway just be merged into the Seoul Metropolitan Subway? Metrosfan (talk) 04:11, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes. They probably should. While they have different operators, they are branded as part of the same system. Rckania (talk) 19:02, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

The Singapore Mass Rapid Transit also has two different operators, but have same systems, therefore the point seems to be valid Metrosfan (talk) 11:18, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Removal of unsourced planned metro stystem and under construction

There are many unsourced and fantasist metro systems in these categories. I suggest removal of all the unsourced metro systems. Also, it should be clarified what should the ''planned'' section contain. How can we even source this ? Some articles with some politicians promising the construction of an hypothetic metro system doesn't sound like a valid source. I vote for the removal of this section. Capt'n London (talk) 15:03, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, there's a reason the inclusion was always "shovels in the ground". I objected to the addition of a "planned" section for that very reason: no actual physical infrastructure exists, so they are not a system yet. Saint until some actual construction happens and put them in that section when it does. oknazevad (talk) 09:44, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

actually sometimes infrastructure for a planned metro exists before it is ever built. This may range from small tunnel segments to entire railroads or elevated lines which were built at some point in the past - sometimes with the explicit goal of conversion to metro but sometimes not.

Just look at the history of Athens Metro or Vienna U-Bahn or the Zürich U-Bahn and Cincinnati subway that never were but which still have/had tunnels you can See... 2001:A62:142C:9802:C15C:FFA8:C202:7093 (talk) 03:36, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

No, in those cases construction had begun, but was abandoned before opening, not plans being cancelled before construction began. Infrastructure can't exist before it's built. oknazevad (talk) 09:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

I have removed the planned section based on the long-standing consensus seen in the talk page archives multiple times. It was added without discussion despite being previously rejected multiple times. It must not be re-added based on WP:CRYSTALBALL. oknazevad (talk) 09:53, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Absolutely. Ymblanter (talk) 10:59, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Lagos Metro

As with the current frequency of one train every 30mn, it doesn't qualify to be metro. If no one opposes with valid sources, it will be removed from the list. Capt'n London (talk) 15:19, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Red Line is definitely not a metro however I would not remove the Blue Line given the reason for the low frequencies and due to rolling stock shortages s however the line is built with true metro origins and was intended to function like a typical metro (if it wasn't the power issue). Editors do make exceptions in certain cases. Mhaot (talk) 11:05, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

In that case it should be removed until it operates as an actual metro. Having it included now is missleading as it may never actually run as a metro, as do premetros which aren't included on this list. This is also the same reason why Palembang LRT is not included as for now. Capt'n London (talk) 20:52, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

There already a consensus that any 'True Metro Origins' cannot be removed even if they might break a certain criteria. London Underground for example has a service which only runs 30 minute which is a Metropolitan Line to Chesham. Plus Palembang LRT is listed as a Metro System on the page. Mhaot (talk) 07:10, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Exactly, it might be inconsistent if they are excluded because not all criterias are met even though most are Metrosfan (talk) 10:49, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

The Oslo Metro also meets less criteria than the Lagos Metro Blue Line, as it has level crossings, which the Lagos Metro Blue Line don't, yet it's still on the list, so I am with @Mhaot Metrosfan (talk) 11:13, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

True Metro origin consensus works when the level of service is near to be reached, or that there actual concrete plans to reach it. However as for now, I doubt the passenger capacity is more than 2000 people per hour per direction (Assuming a train set can accommodate 1000 people, which isn't near from the reality). There no sense to list it for now, it's just misleading and untrue. Having some viaduct built on some concrete pillars and having trains seldom running on it is not enough, even if the intent to build a metro was there. Unless we have some reliable sources that the level of service will improve (such as an intent to buy more train sets), it doesn't belong here. Capt'n London (talk) 21:58, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

1) True Metro Technology and Infrastructure would almost guarantee to be a metro even if services may be short the criteria. Nobody removes London Underground Metropolitan Line for this matter even though they have Chesham and Amersham running at 30 Minute frequencies (Not to even mention a few others run at 20 minutes) but True Metro Technology and Infrastructure outweighs this.

2) An unfortunate event should not be a downgrade as any system as it was always planned as a metro

3) There is sources that say they will buy more rolling stock in the future

https://governor.lagosstate.gov.ng/2024/03/01/lagos-inaugurates-second-intra-city-rail-line-set-to-move-250000-passengers-daily/ Mhaot (talk) 12:08, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Exactly! the only reason why the Mecca Metro Line 1 isn't included was because it only operate 7 days a year and would be more likely referred as "people's mover" or "shuttle train" Metrosfan (talk) 12:26, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

1) Wikipedia is not about ''almost guarantee'', it's about facts and sources, which we don't have.

2) Well, currently it's not a metro, and we have no concrete date when this would happen. Unfortunate events can downgrade as system if it's not operating as it should. As I said, infrastructures are meaningless without the adequate service.

3) This source isn't reliable, there is no official tender, contracts or any concrete proof that rolling stock will be acquired in the future, just a mention that the ridership will increase once when they have the full complement of rolling stock on the line. (And they are talking about the Red line, which is operated with diesel train set...)

Regarding Mecca ''metro'', I don't get why this is brought here, those systems have nothing in common. Capt'n London (talk) 14:54, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Do we have a reliable source stating that it runs every 30 minutes?

The red line is a heavy commuter rail route, not a metro. Rckania (talk) 00:45, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

"Metro" as a concept

"Metro" is historically the name of the Paris underground system, an abbreviation of "métropolitain". But many major underground rail systems are called differently: subway, tube, U-Bahn. Actually Berlin has a network of "metro" trams and buses that run above ground and are separate from the U-Bahn, the system called "metro" here. I would suggest to avoid the word "metro" and change to the more neutral "underground", with the additional benefit that it allows translation. 67.87.88.26 (talk) 12:30, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

In North America and parts of Asia, the term "Rapid Transit" is used as the general term for all of these systems. It is even the title of Wikipedia's own page for these systems. However, It is not used outside of those areas. Metro is the most common name to describe these systems all over the world. If you use the word metro, everyone will know what you mean. Rckania (talk) 18:12, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, metro is the main word that is being referred to these systems, mostly only in north america or UK where they will refer it as Subway, while only in SouthEast Asia and possibly Bangladesh and Taiwan aswell will refer them as "Mass Rapid Transit", Many Europeans or Americans won't understand the term Mass Rapid Transit, "Underground" is mainly only used for the Tube in London Metrosfan (talk) 03:34, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Former metros?

Should the Liverpool Overhead Railway or – if they existed – other systems which met the standards now associated with the term and now either no longer do or no longer exist be listed here? And if so, how many entries would such a list have? 2001:A62:142C:9802:C15C:FFA8:C202:7093 (talk) 03:30, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

If the former Liverpool system was fully independent, then I think it deserves a place on this list. However, I think the list would be rather short. KatVanHuis (talk) 19:25, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Missing metro system of Porto, Portugal lá my

The metro system of Porto has currently 69,7 km of which 10,7 are underground and 86 stations. With the current expansion in will have 80 km and 91 stations. It has currently some 174 million passengers yearly. it should be added to this list. 95.94.100.145 (talk) 13:42, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

It is not a metro. Ymblanter (talk) 15:58, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Porto Metro is a light rail system, it uses light rail rolling stock, despite of the name Metrosfan (talk) 09:31, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Table - 'Country' Column

There are two things I'd like to suggest for this column in the table.

After quickly looking through some threads on the topic, I noticed most of the discussion about this was around 2014-ish. Should dependent territories be listed separately? (The article only contains 3 dependent territories, those being Hong Kong, Macau and Puerto Rico. Looking through other articles, I've noticed a few inconsistencies as to whether, particularly Hong Kong, is listed separately from the PRC. In 'List of metropolitan areas in Asia', it's listed as part of the PRC, but in 'List of largest cities', it's listed separately. Even if the country itself doesn't change, maybe at least a little note to indicate that the system is located in a dependent territory

I'm a little new to editing, so please excuse me if this has already been settled.

Another thing in the whole 'Country' column is the fact that the country cells are unmerged. Really not sure why this bothers me, but I think it would look more aesthetically pleasing if the table had those cells merged.

Again, I have barely ever edited Wikipedia aside from a couple tiny corrections here and there, so please excuse my lack of fluency. Sleepydoge399 (talk) 10:23, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi Sleepydoge399. Regarding dependent territories, I can only say that there is no consensus regarding whether they should be listed separately in various pages, sometimes there are particular reasons to lean one way or the other, sometimes it is a simple editorial choice. Regarding the unmerged cells, I don't know if there is a specific reason for that, it does not seem to affect the sorting. Best, CMD (talk) 10:31, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Valencia (metrovalencia) is missing

Metrovalencia is missing in the list. It is the second longest metro system in Spain, so I think it is relevant to add it. Rgc1994 (talk) 10:44, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Previous discussions have found consensus that it is light rail, and so it is present at List of tram and light rail transit systems. CMD (talk) 10:53, 6 June 2024 (UTC)