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Talk:Li Haoshi controversy

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Latest comment: 10 months ago by ArcticSeeress in topic Similar cases section
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More reference sources are on the way edit

Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Please be rest assured that more references will be added shortly.

Please bear with me about the difficulties of handling and archiving Chinese citation sources and kindly give me a little more time.

Thank you. Boreas Sawada 05:49, 18 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Rename edit

Latest comment: 11 months ago5 comments2 people in discussion
  • 2023 Li Haoshi Insulting Remarks Controversy
    • Word insulting is subjective hence not needed
    • Word remark or joke (or some other word) is appropriate need to be seen by studying what Reliable sources are saying.
    • L and H in Li Haoshi need to be in capital letters but First letters in other words need to be small letters

Bookku (talk) 04:12, 21 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

You’re right. The ‘insulting’ thing was what he was accused of, and indeed we shall not affirm that in the title.
And I would suggest that the word ‘controversy’ can now be changed to something like ‘incident’. For that, when I started to compose this entry, it was still a hyped-up controversy, and yet as the company was fined and a criminal probe was triggered (as well as further consequences that I would like to add later), it has now become an incident. Boreas Sawada 03:42, 22 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
@Boreas Sawada How about title '2023 incident about Li Haoshi's anecdote' ? Or may may be you can suggest few more alternatives. Bookku (talk) 13:54, 22 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
I just moved the page to Li Haoshi controversy of 2023, which removed the ‘insulting’ word and shortened the title. But if you or anyone has better ideas, please feel free to move again. Boreas Sawada 01:52, 23 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

RS description of the controversy edit

Other than Global times - 'inappropriate metaphor controversy' - rest of media seem to be employing term quip or joke. Bookku (talk) 05:50, 21 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Global Times ref edit

Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Idk RSN allows Golabal Times as RS but to cover consequences for the artist that can be good source to cross check. Bookku (talk) 04:53, 21 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Translation of the slogan edit

Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I doubt PLA slogan referred in this article may be getting translated literally. WP community might need to look for, discuss and confirm which would be more appropriate translation. Bookku (talk) 05:26, 21 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

On the first paragraph’s short description of the ‘joke’ edit

Latest comment: 1 year ago3 comments2 people in discussion

@Bookku & @TrademarkedTarantula:

Many thanks for helping refine and copy-edit this entry.

However, I found it hard to give a brief description of the ‘joke’ given by Li. And that is because what Li said is one thing, and what is perceived by the Chinese authorities is completely another thing. The Chinese authorities did accuse Li of ‘insulting’ the PLA. And yet I would argue that any sensible person will not draw such a conclusion. Also, I doubt anyone would seriously reckon that he was making a mockery of the PLA, either. Therefore I would suggest that the first paragraph be further revised to reflect that it is disputable whether the comedian was intentionally making a mockery of the PLA or is it only that the Chinese authorities reckoned so.

To prove my point, I made a transcript and a verbatim translation of his speech as it was delivered on-site, with more contextual backgrounds both before and after he quoted Xi’s words. Please note that in the Chinese original, certain words were omitted due to the colloquial context (primarily conjunctions), which have now been reinserted (presumably) as light-coloured small text within brackets to enhance clarity. (ST for ‘source text’ and TT for ‘translation’.)

ST: （因为）上海是一个国际化的大都市，（所以我）做的一切事都要跟国际接轨。
TT: Given that Shanghai is a metropolis of international reach, it is imperative for me to align all my endeavours with international expectations.

ST: （因此）我去上海以后就收养了两条流浪狗[a]。
TT: Therefore, after I moved to Shanghai, I adopted two stray dogs[a].

ST: 严格来讲都不是流浪狗[a]，我们是从家附近的一座山上捡回来的两条野狗[a]。
TT: Strictly speaking, they are not even stray dogs[a]. We actually brought back two feral dogs[a] from a hill near our home.

ST: 我们都不算救助它们，因为它们在山上那个食物链的那个（地位）完全不需要我们的救助。
TT: We were barely even considered to be rescuing them as they held a high position in the food chain on the hills and did not require our assistance at all.

ST: 我们只是相当于《变形计》[b]可能是，（让它们）体验一下城里的生活。
TT: We were merely doing an episode of Bianxingji[b] and providing them an opportunity to experience city life.

ST: 这两条狗它们确实在山上就是食物链的顶端。
TT: These two dogs were indeed at the very top of the food chain on the hills.

ST: 我看到它的第一时间我感觉我不是在看两条狗，（而）是《动物世界》[c]的拍摄现场。
TT: Upon seeing them for the first time, I felt like that I wasn’t looking at two dogs, but rather as if I was on the set of Animal World[c].

ST: 就两条狗追一个松鼠，（它们）像炮弹一样发射了出去。
TT: The two dogs were chasing after a squirrel, and they shot off like two shells.

ST: 那你平时看到一些狗，你会觉得很萌、心都被融化了，你会想到这些词。
TT: So, when you see some dogs in your daily life, you’ll probably find them adorable—so cute as if your heart will melt. These are the words that will come to your mind.

ST: 我看到这两条狗的（时候），内心只闪烁出了八个大字，就——作风优良，能打胜仗。
TT: And yet when I saw these two dogs, only eight big characters were flickering in my mind: ‘have good styles, be capable of winning battles’.

ST: 非常优秀！
TT: Excellent!

ST: 我牵着这两条狗在上海的街头威风凛凛。
TT: It gives me such a majestic feeling when I walk on the streets of Shanghai with these two dogs on my lead.

ST: 唯一的问题就是，它们的运动量太大了，我的身体素质有点跟不上。
TT: The only problem is that their level of activities is way too high, and it’s quite struggling for my physical condition to keep up with them.

Notes

  1. ^ a b c d e f Please note that there are some slight nuances in the wording. The comedian first said ‘stray dogs’ (Chinese: 流浪狗), but changed to use ‘feral dogs’ (Chinese: 野狗) subsequently.
  2. ^ a b Bianxingji (Chinese: 变形计) is a reality television series aired on Hunan Television since 2006. The programme will select some teenagers from different family backgrounds and allow them to experience one day’s life in very different environments from their own.
  3. ^ a b Animal World (Chinese: 动物世界) was another popular TV programme in mainland China, created to show the diversity of animals living in the natural world. It was aired on China Central Television from 1981 to 2022.

I can only speak for myself, but as a native Chinese speaker, born and lived in mainland China for 30 years, I cannot see any simile, metaphor, or allusion in it. He told a story about his dogs, and that’s it. Although I had gone through something like this (I was once too put into prison for seven months for using Xi’s nickname on Twitter), the bizarre absurdity of this event is well beyond my comprehension. Therefore, I do not reckon that he was intentionally making fun of the PLA, and I do reckon that we should refrain from affirming this farcical accusation (mocking the PLA) from the Chinese authorities in the introductory paragraph. Boreas Sawada 03:27, 22 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Chu Tse-tien Thanks for valuable inputs. I am quite open to discuss points raised by you.
1) Please help understand what primary source you are using for transcript and how do you confirm that is reliable enough?
Background of the questions details 1
One aspect is usually @ Wikipedia we go as per what reliable secondary sources are saying. International reliable media sources which I came across seem to be considering that as a joke and mocking. At personal level I prefer to see is reliable secondary sources are not inventing any thing what is not there in primary source (though WP policies and users usually seem to ignore this aspect and rely on whatever majority reliable sources are saying). Even if we decide we do not invent what is not there in primary source for that at least reliability of primary source needs to be confirmed. Since this is first time I am handing this topic area please help understand what primary source you are using for transcript and how do you confirm that is reliable enough?
2) Li Haoshi by profession is just a stand-up talk giver or stand-up comedian?
Background of the questions details 2
This is important question since if he is a comedian usually making people laugh through his talk show then it is more likely to be considered joke or a humorous account. (Again RS in international media seem to describe Haoshi as a comedian). If is not comedian but just talk show maker then describing that as just entertaining account is possible.
One important point of consideration. One difference between your own case and Li Haoshi is that you may not necessarily artist, in any situation where freedom of expression and speech gets restricted artists and even common people find innovative cryptic ways laugh at things attempting remaining withing legal boundaries simultaneously finding ways to say what they want to say. And this need not be every time deliberate over the decades literary culture itself molds in that way. Many comedians in Pakistan are quite cryptic making comedy within the given boundary same time testing the waters.
3) In the change I had made

.. about stray dogs running after a squirrel employing Chinese military motto "Fine ways to win the battle" ..

I did not use word mocking for the same reason not to invent what is not there in primary source. But then what other word we can use for 'employing'? may be 'utilizing' / 'using' or some thing else? do suggest. Bookku (talk) 07:03, 22 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for your kind reply!
1) Yes, I entirely understand your concerns in this, and that is one reason why I choose to put this piece of material here on the talk page rather than in the entry’s main text, also along with another apparent reason—copyright ;)
The source is the exact leaked recording, which is widespread all over the internet. I have enclosed one in the main reflist (currently Ref No 14[1]), but it is actually quite widespread. Radio Free Asia, for instance, also uploaded this segment of the recording to their official YouTube channel[2], only that the first sentence (‘Given that Shanghai is a metropolis of international reach, it is imperative for me to align all my endeavours with international expectations.’) was cut out in their upload. This clip has been verified to be true by several mainland Chinese media, for example, The Paper[3].
Therefore, based on these sources, I myself made the above transcript and translated it for the purpose of giving more context to what he precisely said.
3) I have no objection to your choice of words, and yet it currently goes with mocking, which in my opinion, is an affirmation of the accusations made by the Chinese authorities. I would suggest rephrasing the sentence something like ‘Li used a Chinese military slogan to commend his dogs, which resulted in accusations of him insulting the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) by both the Chinese authorities and some individuals.’
2) Li is a professional stand-up comedian, and yes, his main job is to make people laugh. And yet I still do not reckon he was ‘testing the waters’ in this very case. In my opinion, he was just telling an interesting anecdote about his dogs. No-one would have thought that those words of Xi could not be used to describe average dogs. (Why do I use ‘average dogs’? Because the authorities themselves have indeed used these words on military dogs.)

References

  1. ^ Jingcheng Chihuo Riji (京城吃货日记) (15 May 2023). "Xiǎohóngshū shàng bào chūlái de xiàncháng shíkuàng lùyīn. Tīngguò zàilái tántán nínde gǎnshòu" 小红书上爆出来的现场实况录音。听过再来谈谈您的感受。 [Leaked recording of the live performance that day from Xiaohongshu. Please listen to it first before talking about how you feel.]. Sina Weibo (in Chinese (China)). Beijing. Archived from the original on 18 May 2023. Retrieved 18 May 2023.
  2. ^ Official YouTube Channel of the RFA (16 May 2023). "Tuōkǒuxiù Yǎnyuán Chēng Lǐngyǎng Gǒu 'Zuòfēng Yōuliáng, Néng Dǎ Shèngzhàng'" 脱口秀演员称领养狗「#作风优良能打胜仗」 [Comedy Artist Claimed the Dogs He Adopted ‘Have Good Styles and Are Capable of Winning Battles’]. Radio Free Asia (in Chinese (China)). Washington, D.C. Archived from the original on 21 May 2023. Retrieved 22 May 2023.
  3. ^ Chen, Jianhui, ed. (16 May 2023). "Méitǐ: HOUSE Bùdāng Yánlùn Zuìzǎo Pùguāngzhě Quèrèn Wǎngchuán Lùyīn Shǔshí, Zìchēng Zāo Wǎngbào" 媒体：HOUSE 不当言论最早曝光者确认网传录音属实，自称遭网暴 [Media: The Leaked and Widespread Recording of the Inappropriate Remarks of HOUSE is Verified to be True by the Earliest Exposer who Claimed to be Cyberbullied]. The Paper (in Chinese (China)). Shanghai. Archived from the original on 17 May 2023. Retrieved 22 May 2023.

Boreas Sawada 08:56, 22 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Further discussion on the introductory lines edit

Latest comment: 11 months ago3 comments2 people in discussion

To @TrademarkedTarantula:

Through several of his staged performances, which Chinese governmental institutions and nationalists found as insulting, the People's Liberation Army (PLA) penalized Haoshi and his contracting firm for his misdemeanor as a serious mistake.

The facts in this sentence are entirely incorrect. Li and his firm were not penalised by the PLA. He was accused of insulting the PLA, and the Beijing Municipal Bureau of Culture and Tourism fined his contracting firm. Li is currently okay (for the time being); he has just lost his job and is being investigated in a criminal probe led by the Chaoyang Branch of the Beijing Municipal Public Security Bureau. The PLA has nothing to do with these things, only one of their official social media accounts released some strong condemnations, but they’re not directly involved.

And I’m not an English expert, but is this sentence grammatically correct?

And also, Li Haoshi is a Chinese name, which means Li is his surname while Haoshi is the given name. Boreas Sawada 09:18, 22 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Boreas Sawada I updated the lead taking into account the discussions up til now. Do suggest how do you find those changes? any further suggessions? Bookku (talk) 13:56, 22 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Please allow me some time to address the ‘citation needed’ issue in paragraph 2 of the ‘History’ section (which I am doing right now); after that, I’ll revise the entry and add more follow-ups. Boreas Sawada 18:38, 22 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

On the ‘citation-needed’ paragraph edit

Latest comment: 11 months ago7 comments2 people in discussion

In the main text, the following sentence has been marked with ‘citation-needed’:

Since then, the three core phrases—‘follow the Party’s command’ (Chinese: 听党指挥; pinyin: tīng Dǎng zhǐhuī), ‘be capable of winning battles’ (Chinese: 能打胜仗; pinyin: néng dǎ shèngzhàng), and ‘have good styles’ (Chinese: 作风优良; pinyin: zuòfēng yōuliáng), have become the core slogans of the PLA and have been widely used on a variety of occasions.

It is very hard to prove its omnipresence in mainland China for this is something like proving (or citing) the fact that ‘His Majesty the King is a man’. I know the Guidance of Wikipedia used the example of ‘the sky is blue’, but I am sure that you can find some sources that discussed the colour of the sky and why it is looked this way, but I doubt anyone would find a source that clearly states ‘His Majesty the King is a man’. And this is exactly the situation we are facing. This military slogan has been so widely used that anyone who lived in mainland China would not doubt its prevalence. Because they will hear, see, and read it repeatedly for the past decade on television, on hoardings, in newspapers, or on the internet. As being Xi’s words, these twelve characters are doomed to be reappearing every once in a while in mainland China’s propaganda newspapers and media. If these are the sources we need, I can give as many as it suits you—for instance, the first 14 sources in this topic’s reflist.[1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14]

And you all can be rest assured that they all mentioned the exact twelve characters as put forward by Xi in 2013.

This slogan is also prominently displayed in every military camp, every single one of them, without any exception. Some picture evidence can be found in citations 15—17 in the following list.[15] [16] [17]

And use any search engine and put these characters into it, and you’ll find even more pictures, articles, videos, etc.

Therefore, it is not hard to find propaganda articles that use this slogan; it is hard, however, to decide what could be the best way to verify this statement of its omnipresence is true.

References

  1. ^ Yang, Zurong (11 March 2013). "Wèi Jiànshè Yīzhī Tīng Dǎng Zhǐhuī, Néng Dǎ Shèngzhàng, Zuòfēng Yōuliáng de Rénmín Jūnduì ér Fèndòu" 为建设一支听党指挥、能打胜仗、作风优良的人民军队而奋斗 [Devoting Our Efforts to Build a People’s Army that Follows the Party’s Command, is Capable of Winning Battles, and Has Good Styles]. People's Liberation Army Daily (in Chinese (China)). Beijing. Archived from the original on 22 May 2023. Retrieved 22 May 2023 – via Sina News.
  2. ^ Xinhua News Agency (11 March 2013). "Xí Jìnpíng: Jūnduì Yào Juéduì Tīng Dǎng Zhǐhuī" 习近平：军队要绝对听党指挥 [Xi Jinping: The Army Must Absolutely Follow the Party’s Command]. BBC News Chinese (in Chinese (China)). London. Archived from the original on 22 May 2023. Retrieved 22 May 2023. (Paragraph 3) 习近平说，听党指挥是灵魂，决定军队建设的政治方向；能打胜仗是核心，反映军队的根本职能和军队建设的根本指向；作风优良是保证，关系军队的性质、宗旨、本色。 [Xi Jinping emphasised that ‘“follow the Party’s command” is the soul, determining the political orientation of military construction; “be capable of winning battles” is the core, reflecting the fundamental function of the military and the fundamental direction of military construction; “have good styles” is the guarantee, relating to the nature, purpose, and essence of the military.’]
  3. ^ Chang, Xuemei and Cheng, Hongyi, eds. (12 March 2013). "Xí Jìnpíng: Nǔlì Jiànshè Yīzhī Tīng Dǎng Zhǐhuī Néng Dǎ Shèngzhàng Zuòfēng Yōuliáng de Rénmín Jūnduì" 习近平：努力建设一支听党指挥能打胜仗作风优良的人民军队 [Striving to Build a People’s Army that Follows the Party’s Command, is Capable of Winning Battles, and Has Good Styles]. People's Daily (in Chinese (China)). Beijing. Archived from the original on 22 May 2023. Retrieved 22 May 2023 – via Chinese Communist Party News Net.
  4. ^ Cao, Zhi; Li, Xuanliang; and Wang, Shibin (1 August 2013). "Jiànshè Yīzhī Tīng Dǎng Zhǐhuī Néng Dǎ Shèngzhàng Zuòfēng Yōuliáng de Rénmín Jūnduì" 建设一支听党指挥能打胜仗作风优良的人民军队 [Build a People’s Army that Follows the Party’s Command, is Capable of Winning Battles, and Has Good Styles]. Banyuetan (in Chinese (China)). Beijing. Archived from the original on 22 May 2023. Retrieved 22 May 2023.
  5. ^ Li, Jieqiong, ed. (10 May 2016). "Jiànshè Yīzhī Tīng Dǎng Zhǐhuī Néng Dǎ Shèngzhàng Zuòfēng Yōuliáng de Rénmín Jūnduì" 建设一支听党指挥能打胜仗作风优良的人民军队 [Build a People’s Army that Follows the Party’s Command, is Capable of Winning Battles, and Has Good Styles]. People's Daily (in Chinese (China)). Beijing. Archived from the original on 22 May 2023. Retrieved 22 May 2023 – via Xinhua Net.
  6. ^ Cheng, Xiang (2 August 2016). Li, Dan and Wang, Jingdong (eds.). "Xí Jìnpíng Qiángjūn zhī Cè—Gǎigé Qiángjūn, Zhànwúbùshèng" 习近平强军之策——改革强军，战无不胜 [Xi Jinping’s Strategy for a Strong Military—Strengthening the Army through reform and then it will become invincible]. CCTV.COM (in Chinese (China)). Beijing. Archived from the original on 22 May 2023. Retrieved 22 May 2023. (Paragraph 1) 深入推进政治建军、改革强军、依法治军，建设一支听党指挥、能打胜仗、作风优良的人民军队，是党在新形势下的强军目标。 [To further advance the political construction of the military, implement military reform, and promote the governance of the military that aligns with the rule of law and to build a People’s Army that follows the Party’s command, is capable of winning battles, and has good styles is the Party’s objective of strengthening the Army under the latest circumstances.]
  7. ^ Guo, Hui; Weng, Huainan; Liu, Wentao; et al. (7 August 2017). "Yíngjiē Dǎng de Shíjiǔdà: Jūnqí xiàng Dǎng Shì Zhōngchéng" 迎接党的十九大　军旗向党誓忠诚 [Embracing the 19th Party Congress: Hold High the Military Flag and Pledge Loyalty to the Party]. Dangjian (‘Party Building’) Magazine (in Chinese (China)). Archived from the original on 22 May 2023. Retrieved 22 May 2023. (Paragraph 1) 党的十八大以来，习主席着眼实现中国梦强军梦，鲜明提出「建设一支听党指挥、能打胜仗、作风优良的人民军队」的强军目标…… [Since the 18th Party Congress, Chairman Xi has been focused on the realisation of the Chinese Dream and the Strong Military Dream, and he has clearly stated the Army Strengthening Objective—‘follow the Party’s command, be capable of winning battles, and have good styles’…]
  8. ^ Centre for Socialism with Chinese Characteristics Theoretical System Studies of the National Defence University (15 April 2018). "Láoláo Bǎwò Dǎng zài Xīn Shídài de Qiángjūn Mùbiāo" 牢牢把握党在新时代的强军目标 [Hold Firmly to the Party’s Objective of Strengthening the Army in the New Era]. Qiushi (in Chinese (China)). Beijing. Archived from the original on 22 May 2023. Retrieved 22 May 2023.
  9. ^ Huang, Ming and Liu, Jimei (20 February 2022). "Jiànshè Yīzhī Tīng Dǎng Zhǐhuī Néng Dǎ Shèngzhàng Zuòfēng Yōuliáng de Rénmín Jūnduì—'Shígè Míngquè' Zhāngxiǎn Mǎkèsī Zhǔyì Zhōngguóhuà Xīn Fēiyuè Shùpíng zhī Bā" 「建设一支听党指挥能打胜仗作风优良的人民军队」——「十个明确」彰显马克思主义中国化新飞跃述评之八 [Build a People’s Army that Follows the Party’s Command, is Capable of Winning Battles, and Has Good Styles—‘“The Ten Clarifications” Demonstrate a New Leap in the Sinification of Marxism’ Series Commentary No 8]. Xinhua News Agency (in Chinese (China)). Beijing. Archived from the original on 22 May 2023. Retrieved 22 May 2023.
  10. ^ Zhang, Xiao (29 July 2022). "Jiànshè Shìjiè Yīliú Jūnduì, Wéihù Shìjiè Hépíng Wěndìng" 建设世界一流军队，维护世界和平稳定 [Build a World-Class Military and Safeguard Global Peace and Stability]. Official Website of the Chinese Embassy in Kazakhstan (in Chinese (China)). Astana. Archived from the original on 22 May 2023. Retrieved 22 May 2023. (Paragraph 2) 党的十八大以来，在习近平主席亲自指挥下 …… 正在建设成一支听党指挥、能打胜仗、作风优良的人民军队。 [Since the 18th Party Congress, under the personal direction of Chairman Xi Jinping … is building a People’s Army that follows the Party’s command, is capable of winning battles, and has good styles.]
  11. ^ Xinhua Net (31 July 2022). "'Qiúshì' Zázhì Fābiǎo Xí Jìnpíng Zǒngshūjì Zhòngyào Wénzhāng, 'Zài Qìngzhù Zhōngguó Rénmín Jiěfàngjūn Jiànjūn 90 Zhōunián Dàhuì shàng de Jiǎnghuà'" 《求是》杂志发表习近平总书记重要文章《在庆祝中国人民解放军建军 90 周年大会上的讲话》 [‘Qiushi’ Magazine Publishes A Significant Speech by General Secretary Xi Jinping: ‘Speech at the Ceremony Commemorating the 90th Anniversary of the Founding of the Chinese People’s Liberation Army’]. Xinhua News Agency (in Chinese (China)). Beijing. Archived from the original on 26 November 2021. Retrieved 22 May 2023. (Paragraph 5) 文章指出，党的十八大以来，我们提出建设一支听党指挥、能打胜仗、作风优良的人民军队这一党在新形势下的强军目标…… [The article points out that since the 18th Party Congress, we (the Party) have put forward the ‘Party’s objective of strengthening the Army under the latest circumstances’, which is to build a People’s Army that follows the Party’s command, is capable of winning battles, and has good styles. …] {{cite web}}: |archive-date= / |archive-url= timestamp mismatch; 26 November 2022 suggested (help)
  12. ^ Huang, Ming (19 September 2022). "Zhōngguó Tèsè Qiángjūn zhī Lù de Shídài Dájuàn—Xīn Shídài Tuījìn Guófáng hé Jūnduì Jiànshè Shùpíng" 中国特色强军之路的时代答卷——新时代推进国防和军队建设述评 [On the Road to a Strong Military with Chinese Characteristics: A Commentary on Advancing National Defence and Military Development in the New Era]. Xinhua News Agency (in Chinese (China)). Beijing. Archived from the original on 22 May 2023. Retrieved 22 May 2023 – via China Daily. (Paragraph 7) 2013 年 3 月，在十二届全国人大一次会议解放军代表团全体会议上，习主席郑重宣告：「建设一支听党指挥、能打胜仗、作风优良的人民军队，是党在新形势下的强军目标。」 [In March 2013, at the plenary meeting of the PLA delegation of the 1st Session of the 12th National People’s Congress, Chairman Xi solemnly declared: to build a People’s Army that follows the Party’s command, is capable of winning battles, and has good styles is the Party’s objective of strengthening the Army under the latest circumstances.]
  13. ^ Han, Bingxi, ed. (19 September 2022). "Zuòfēng Yōuliáng shì Gāo Zhìliáng Wánchéng Gōngzuò de Bǎozhèng" 作风优良是高质量完成工作的保证 [Having Good Styles is the Guarantee for Achieving High-Quality Work]. People’s Forum (a website run by the People's Daily Press) (in Chinese (China)). Beijing. Archived from the original on 22 May 2023. Retrieved 22 May 2023. (Paragraph 1) 当我们谈作风优良的时候，耳熟能详的一句话是：「听党指挥、能打胜仗、作风优良」，这是人民军队在新形势下的强军目标，作风优良是能打胜仗的重要保证，也是我们干部职工圆满完成各项工作任务的重要保证。 [When we talk about ‘having good styles’, a familiar phrase is, ‘follow the Party’s command, be capable of winning battles, and have good styles.’ This is the Strong Military Objective of the People’s Army under the latest circumstances. Good styles are a vital guarantee for winning battles and an essential assurance for cadres and staff members to fulfil their work tasks successfully.]
  14. ^ Kang, Zizhan; Liu, Hanbao; and Wang, Xuefeng (23 February 2023). "Jiànxíng Qiángjūn Mùbiāo · Wǒmén Zhè Shínián | Kōngjūn Mǒubù: Qiángjūn Mèngxiǎng Yǐnlǐng Shèngzhàn Hángchéng" 践行强军目标·我们这十年丨空军某部：强军梦想引领胜战航程 [Practising the Goal of a Strong Military: Our Progress over the Past Decade | An Air Force Department: The Dream of a Strong Military Guides Us the Journey to Victorious Battles]. China National Radio (in Chinese (China)). Beijing. Archived from the original on 22 May 2023. Retrieved 22 May 2023. (Paragraph 2) 党的十九大明确，党在新时代的强军目标是建设一支听党指挥、能打胜仗、作风优良的人民军队，把人民军队建设成为世界一流军队。 [The 19th Party Congress cleared that the Party’s Army strengthening objective in the new era is to build a People’s Army that follows the Party’s command, is capable of winning battles, and has good styles; and to make the People’s Army into a world-class military force.]
  15. ^ Zheng, Heming and Chen, Zhijie (15 July 2020). "Jiāhé: Tūchū 'Sān Rónghé', Tíshēng RénWǔBù Zhèngzhì Huánjìng Jiànshè" 嘉禾：突出「三融合」　提升人武部政治环境建设 [Jiahe County: Highlighting the ‘Three Integrations’ and Enhancing the Political Environment Construction of the People’s Armed Forces Department]. Hunan Daily (in Chinese (China)). Changsha. Archived from the original on 23 May 2023. Retrieved 23 May 2023. Picture 2 {{cite web}}: |archive-date= / |archive-url= timestamp mismatch; 22 May 2023 suggested (help)
  16. ^ Shen, Guo; Chu, Haibing; and Chen, Xueyin (22 March 2022). Fu, Gang (ed.). "Ānhuī Quánjiāo: Rèxuè Qīngchūn Zhì Bàoguó, Búfù Sháohuá Fù Jūnyíng" 安徽全椒：热血青春志报国　不负韶华赴军营 [Quanjiao County of Anhui: We Vow to Serve the Country with Passionate Youth and March into the Military Camp to Live up to the Prime of Our Lives]. Zhong'an Online (Anhui News Portal) (in Chinese (China)). Archived from the original on 23 May 2023. Retrieved 23 May 2023. Picture 1 {{cite web}}: |archive-date= / |archive-url= timestamp mismatch; 22 May 2023 suggested (help)
  17. ^ People’s Armed Forces Department of the Wuhe County (21 September 2022). "Wǔhé Xiàn Huānsòng 2022 Nián Xiàbànnián Rùwǔ Xīnbīng Bēnfù Jūnyíng" 五河县欢送 2022 年下半年入伍新兵奔赴军营 [Wuhe County Rejoicefully Bids Farewell to the 2022 H2 New Recruits as They Embark on Their Journey to the Military Camp]. Official website of the government of Wuhe county (in Chinese (China)). Bengbu. Archived from the original on 23 May 2023. Retrieved 23 May 2023. Picture 1 {{cite web}}: |archive-date= / |archive-url= timestamp mismatch; 22 May 2023 suggested (help)

Boreas Sawada 00:24, 23 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Came across following book on google books Idk how much that would help as citation
  • Knowing the People’s Liberation Army. N.p., 李亞明, 2021. ISBN: 9789574395231, 9574395235 Page 19
Bookku (talk) 02:21, 23 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Thank you. And I have just found that a new article by WSJ used the word ‘ubiquitous’ to describe this slogan which I have put into citations. Boreas Sawada 02:42, 23 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
@Boreas Sawada On side note I wish to request you to update the article Chinese comedy that will help readers to understand background of Chinese comedy better. Bookku (talk) 05:59, 23 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Eh... Quite the contrary, this whole thing has nothing to do with the so-called ‘Chinese comedy’. Li and the entire company he worked with were performing Western-style (or American-style?) stand-up comedy (just as described in the entry of stand-up comedy), which is vastly different from Chinese comedy. Therefore I would suggest removing this mention.
As a matter of fact (and an interesting anecdote)—in order to avoid suppression from the authorities, some of his fellow stand-up comedians (not necessarily his colleagues) once switched to English performance for a while[1], and some of them (this time including some of his colleagues) later even went to the United States[2] to pursue further career development.

References

  1. ^ McDonell, Stephen; Liu, Joyce; and Jin, Ellen (31 December 2021). "Why Chinese stand-up comedians are turning to English". BBC News. Archived from the original on 23 May 2023. Retrieved 23 May 2023.
  2. ^ Farley, LeLe (21 February 2023). "Chinese Comedian Can't Go Home After American Standup Tour!". YouTube. Archived from the original on 23 May 2023. Retrieved 23 May 2023.

Boreas Sawada 06:51, 23 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

And to be honest, I don’t watch both of them. Therefore, if anyone is suitable to update the article on Chinese comedy, it shouldn’t be me. My ‘speciality’ is on political persecution and I might one-day update entries like picking quarrels and provoking trouble if my translation mission goes on well ;) So sorry I might let you down on this. Boreas Sawada 07:06, 23 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Oh ok then in that case probably article Chinese comedy may be considered for renaming to Humor in China or may be a new article on Humor and China should be possible. I hope some one will take up those general articles for expansion in due course. Bookku (talk) 07:14, 23 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Did you know nomination edit

Latest comment: 10 months ago22 comments4 people in discussion
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Vaticidalprophet (talk) 17:14, 11 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

(
)
  • ... that "capable of winning battles, and have good styles" is part of People's Liberation Army (Chinese military) slogan, which became known for Li Haoshi controversy of 2023? Source: edition.cnn.com/2023/05/17/asia/chinese-firm-fined-army-joke-intl-hnk/index.html
    • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Sandhya Dhar
    • Comment: IMHO This new article can be good candidate for DYK, topic which deals with interesting conundrum capable of drawing attention to issues related humour and free speech. In this article it's about China the issues can be equally true across times and spaces.
IMHO alternate DYKs would be possible. And hope DYK nomination will attract article-improvement-help of some good Wikipedia authors and that would help ultimate improvement of the article.

Created by Chu Tse-tien (talk). Nominated by Bookku (talk) at 08:16, 23 May 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Li Haoshi controversy of 2023; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.Reply

General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited:  
  • Interesting:   - n
QPQ: Done.

Overall:   Good well-written article. I did light copy editing. (1) can you remove the over citation in the lead, and also you do not seem to use these sources anywhere in the article. so either completely remove them or put them where they are apporiate (not the lead the section), see Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section. (2) the hook is convoluted and hard to understand, can you recommend simpler hooks please. FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:49, 23 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

@FuzzyMagma: Thanks for your valuable inputs
Before submitting for DYK I had checked article on Erwig tool and I did not see any issues in the tool report. You seem to have left parameter plagiarismfree = blank. Is it that you want some one else to take care of that aspect or left unknowingly blank or are we missing any aspect? If last one is the case then let we know so some action can be taken.
I would prefer alternate hook suggestions coming from other editors. May be after couple of days I will try to suggest few from my side too. Bookku (talk) 06:37, 24 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

@FuzzyMagma:

(1)

remove the over citation in the lead

Done. Now the citations in the introductory section have been reduced to three.

do not seem to use these sources anywhere in the article

These are a couple of well-written reports that cover the whole incident, with most of the details mentioned below included. It would be better to put them in the lead rather than in the following sections repeatedly.
(2) about the hook
I’d suggest something like
> … what recent controversy was triggered by commending dogs with a military slogan of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) and led to the person in question and their company being heavily penalised by the Chinese authorities?
Boreas Sawada 07:06, 24 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
@Chu Tse-tien: In general, if they are reports that are not needed in the article but they are good for further read, then you can move them after the reference section in a section called Further reading, as per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section citation is not necessary unless for controversial points as the lead summaries what is in the article. Anyhow, you can leave the three sources if you wish to do so
Your new hook is too long. The hook does not need to summarise the article put says something interesting from the article, for example:
I think these are some simple and interesting hooks to get people to read your article. Give it a go too please or you can choose from mine FuzzyMagma (talk) 07:45, 24 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
@FuzzyMagma:
I see. Thank you for letting me know.

although the article says 1.3

Corrected.
Your hooks are excellent.
Boreas Sawada 07:59, 24 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
  Approved ALT2 is ready to go then
With due respect, I am afraid, I foresee some difficulty in adoption of alt2 at next level of DYK; at least needs to be clearly supported by citation. Bookku (talk) 15:07, 24 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
sorry for that, I am not a speaker of the language been cited and assumed good faith. I am glad you picked that up. AT3 is BBC sourced but need to be included in the article first, can you do that @Chu Tse-tien:?, @Bookku: if you think ALT3 is not suitable, I can propose more but sadly only based on English sources FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:54, 24 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

AT3 is BBC sourced but need to be included in the article first

I’m confused, isn’t the first citation exactly this BBC source? Or do you mean to change the currency from yuan to dollar? But the BBC source did mention how much yuan they were fined and confiscated in paragraph 10 as follows:

They then confiscated 1.32m yuan of what was deemed to be illegal income, and fined the company another 13.35m yuan, according to Xinhua.

As for the source for AT2, I am confused, too, for saying it wasn’t cited; some sources even used ‘comparing army to dogs’ or ‘likened Chinese soldiers to feral dogs’ in their titles, like these two that follows.[1][2]
And that wasn’t what Li was doing, as per discussion here on the talk page, he was at most comparing his dogs to the army, not the other way around. Therefore it is indeed ‘some people thought’ he was.

References

  1. ^ Sharma, Shweta (16 May 2023). "China investigating comedian for 'insulting' joke comparing army to dogs". The Independent. London. Archived from the original on 24 May 2023. Retrieved 24 May 2023.
  2. ^ Gu, Ting; Wu, Yitong; and Chingman (15 May 2023). Foster, Malcolm (ed.). "Police probe stand-up comedian who likened Chinese soldiers to feral dogs". Radio Free Asia. Translated by Mudie, Luisetta. Washington, D.C. Archived from the original on 24 May 2023. Retrieved 24 May 2023.
Boreas Sawada 21:27, 24 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
@ User:Chu_Tse-tien I mean DYK specific citation need to be mentioned on this DYK page itself so next level user / admin need not go around searching for the same. Secondly though Wikipedia is not censored, still since DYK goes on main page senior editors are usually extra cautious before accepting any negative connotations in DYK.
I feel Alt 3 is better one and RS citations too easily available. Bookku (talk) 08:22, 25 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
@Bookku: I see. Thanks for the clarification! So the source for AT3 is listed as follows[1]:

References

  1. ^ Fan, Wang (17 May 2023). "China fines comedy troupe $2m for joke about the military". BBC News. London. Archived from the original on 24 May 2023. Retrieved 25 May 2023.
Boreas Sawada 08:49, 25 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
I added the text with references to the article for ALT3.   ALT3 is ready to go then. Given the sensitivity of the topic (which I did not consider), @Bookku: feel free to have a second look. FuzzyMagma (talk) 09:19, 25 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
I had a look at changes in the article and discussion above. ALT3 seems good to go for DYK now. Thanks to both User:FuzzyMagma and User:Chu_Tse-tien. Bookku (talk) 09:42, 25 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

remove the over citation in the lead

Done. Now the citations in the introductory section have been reduced to three.

do not seem to use these sources anywhere in the article

These are a couple of well-written reports that cover the whole incident, with most of the details mentioned below included. It would be better to put them in the lead rather than in the following sections repeatedly.

Boreas Sawada 20:10, 23 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Chu Tse-tien I suppose one needs to reply DYK discussions preferably on Template:Did you know nominations/Li Haoshi controversy of 2023 itself.
Since that transcludes in Template talk:Did you know and visible to other DYK participants resulting in better scope of interaction with a diverse group of article writers and inputs. Where as article talk page discussion about DYK is not instantly visible to them and you may miss valuable interaction and inputs. Bookku (talk) 06:12, 24 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
I suppose so, too. But I don’t know how to reply on that page ;) Just click edit and type whatever I want in a new line at the bottom? Boreas Sawada 06:28, 24 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Open for edit, see how others have adjusted indent ':' to start reply, see preview and confirm looks ok then save. A bit of small experimentation. I learned like that only. If you make any mistake in indenting others will any way notice, help and guide since is visible to many expert users. Bookku (talk) 06:45, 24 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Okay, so just like an average talk page, then. It is called a template and I was wondering if extra conventions were there to be followed. Thanks for clearing my doubts. Boreas Sawada 06:50, 24 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
And just about to ask, about the hook. I don’t often read the home page of Wikipedia (rather, I would land at the ‘Special:Search’ page if I clicked my bookmark for Wikipedia—to dodge the home page). Therefore I have no idea on what standard a hook is considered a good one? As I am a native Chinese speaker, I happen to know that their DYKs have to conceal the main topic (in this case, that would be something like: ‘… that a military slogan of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA), ‘be capable of winning battles and have good styles’, has led to what recent controversy in China?’), but based on your recommendation, I reckon this is not the convention here in English Wikipedia? Boreas Sawada 06:46, 24 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Oh here on en WP no convention of deliberate concealing. If a question making needs so to make it interesting then that is okay. I hope this helps. Bookku (talk) 06:54, 24 May 2023 (UTC)Reply
Okay, thank you!
Still, I would reckon that ‘… what recent controversy was triggered by commending dogs with a military slogan of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) and led to the person in question and their company being heavily penalised by the Chinese authorities?’ would be a possible candidate and I’ll put it there ;) Boreas Sawada 07:01, 24 May 2023 (UTC)Reply

Similar cases section edit

Latest comment: 10 months ago3 comments2 people in discussion

None of the sources in this section are about the Li Haoshi controversy or how the events listed within are related. I'm not familiar with this subject or its sources, but this section seems like it gives undue weight to this information. I'd suggest finding sources that specifically mention these prior incidents in relation to the one in the article. Otherwise I'd recommend removing it. ArcticSeeress (talk) 15:13, 14 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

For the link of Li’s case with the case of Luo Changping, it was mentioned in the second half of the 19th paragraph of the WSJ article[1], in the seventh paragraph of a CNN report[2], and in the last paragraph of the Independent report[3]. The first source was already listed in the References section, the rest two were once cited but were removed by others for redundancy.
And there are plenty of articles that linked the case of Luo Changping and the case of Qiu Ziming, just put their names in the search box and you’ll see how many reports had linked them two in their articles. It would be strange not to mention Qiu’s case if the case of Luo is mentioned here since they were compared a lot in varied sources. Boreas Sawada 16:53, 14 July 2023 (UTC)Reply
Then those sources should be included in the section to better reflect the weight that these articles give to the connection between these incidents. Remember that Wikipedia articles should primarily reflect how secondary sources talk about a given topic, so if the sources in a section don't actually talk about the topic of the article, it gives the impression of the material being unrelated original research. In any case, the sources don't seem redundant to me, so I'd recommend readding them and removing the cleanup tag. I'm not familiar with the article's history, so I'd appreciate if you could tag the person who suggested the removal of the sources so a more thorough consensus can be reached in this discussion in regards to their inclusion. ArcticSeeress (talk) 01:28, 15 July 2023 (UTC)Reply

References

  1. ^ Fan, Wenxin (23 May 2023). "China Makes Clear Its Military Isn't Funny Anymore". The Wall Street Journal. Hong Kong. Archived from the original on 23 May 2023. Retrieved 23 May 2023. Paragraph 19: One man was sentenced to seven months in prison after he ridiculed a popular Chinese movie about the Korean War and questioned China's decision to participate in the conflict.
  2. ^ Lau, Chris (18 May 2023). "The joke that cost $2 million: China imposes huge fine for comedian's army-themed quip". CNN. Hong Kong. Archived from the original on 14 July 2023. Retrieved 14 July 2023. Paragraph 7: In 2021, China enacted a law to ban any insult and slander on military personnel. Last year, a former investigative journalist was sentenced to seven months in prison after he questioned China's role in the Korean War as depicted in a blockbuster patriotic movie.
  3. ^ Sharma, Shweta (16 May 2023). "China investigating comedian for 'insulting' joke comparing army to dogs". The Independent. Archived from the original on 14 July 2023. Retrieved 14 July 2023. The last paragraph: In 2021, China passed a law to criminalise insulting the military or military personnel in the country. Former journalist Luo Changping was prosecuted and jailed for seven months in 2022 for insulting Chinese soldiers depicted in a blockbuster movie about the Korean war.
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