Talk:Lenny Bruce/Archive 1

Archive 1

pretty badly written article

the organization of this article/bio is not very lucid. no introduction (other than two lines; one of which is irrelevant). jumpy, patched biography. bad read. someone who knows how to organize and write should tidy it up.

The following line needs to be rethought or rearranged...

"After spending time working on a farm with a family that provided the stable surroundings he needed..."

Are we to believe he delivered his earliest monologues to the horses? WilliamSommerwerck (talk) 15:59, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Gay Icon Project

In my effort to merge the now-deleted list from the article Gay icon to the Gay icons category, I have added this page to the category. I engaged in this effort as a "human script", adding everyone from the list to the category, bypassing the fact-checking stage. That is what I am relying on you to do. Please check the article Gay icon and make a judgment as to whether this person or group fits the category. By distributing this task from the regular editors of one article to the regular editors of several articles, I believe that the task of fact-checking this information can be expedited. Thank you very much. Dooyar 04:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Somebody deleted the short segment I had about Albert Goldman's claim that Bruce had gay experiences as a very young man. If you want to remove it, please explain why. Are you homophobic ? Bruce sometimes used the word "fag" in his stage routines. Dooyar 04:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Dooyar! Someone probably removed it because a) it's not sourced and b) "might have" and "it is unknown" are what are considered weasel words. You might want to read through that guideline to see why that particular section is probably inappropriate for an encyclopedia article.

PS I think you copied the "gay icon" thing above from another article. This one is in no way related to the non-existent gay icon project mentioned.

Thanks! -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 02:37, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Dooyar. It is sourced, indeed. Albert Goldman devotes a lot of space to it. If you don't know Goldman's relevance to the legacy of Lenny Bruce, then you don't know much about Lenny Bruce. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.67.44.73 (talk) 22:17, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

John Lennon's Awareness Of Bruce

Being the John Lennon fan that I am, I'd be interested to know which Lennon songs that Bruce may have inspired. Anybody know? Please help, because I am an idiot

---

Bruce is mentioned in 'We're all Water' by Lennon/Ono, but so are a lot of people. It's not a song 'inspired' by him.

"There may not be much difference/between Marilyn Monroe and Lenny Bruce/if we check their coffins" from Some Time in NYC

--- Did Lenny Bruce serve in the military in WW2? If someone knows, can he or she add it to the article?

---

According to his own stand-up routines, Lenny was in Germany when the war in Europe ended.

LB's autobiog also states he was at Anzio and saw a lot of fighting.

Age

If he was born in 1925, and died in 1966, then he would have been 41 when he died, not 40, as the article and others say repeatedly. Is this an example of sneaky vandalism, or bad math? 12.218.145.112 02:08, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

He was born in October of 1925 and died in August of 1966. He hadn't had his birthday that year yet. Hence, 40. 64.238.96.126 13:48, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Definitely bad math on your part. MrBlondNYC 01:54, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Lenny Bruce in Don DeLillo's "Underworld"

Bruce appears as a character (himself) in Don DeLillo's novel, "Underworld." He serves, basically, as a muse - as the voice of the underground anxiety of American Cold War culture.

Biography

Taken from article with title same as book title Lenny Bruce spoke frankly about sex, race, religion, government and the lies we tell ourselves. The things he said infuriated those in power, and authorities in the largest, most progressive cities in the country tried relentlessly to silence him. To them, Lenny’s words were filthy and depraved. But to his fans—the hip, the discontented, the fringe—his words were not only sharp and hilarious, they were also a light in the dark, repressed society of the times.

In this revolutionary biography, The Trials of Lenny Bruce: The Fall and Rise of an American Icon, authors Ronald K.L. Collins and David Skover chronicle and analyze Lenny’s free speech struggles from Lenny’s early days on stage through his courtroom trials in San Francisco, Los Angeles, Chicago, and New York City, Collins and Skover reveal how Lenny’s free speech battles paved the way for his First Amendment legacy.

Did LB come to Sydney, Australia?

In a biography of Abe Saffron 'The Ususal suspect, it is stated that LB came to Sydney some time in the earl 60's. Is this true? Further more he was supposed to of got up on stage and said--'What a fucking wonderful audience' and was promptly arrested. Lentisco 02:36, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

In the book 'Banned: Tales from the bizarre history of Australian obscenity' (2005), James Cockington writes of Bruce's visit to Australia in 1962. He wasn't arrested, but he was banned after his first two performances. Sound problems meant half the audience couldn't hear him properly, while most of the other half were either shocked or bored.

A TV interview was cancelled, and planned appearances at the University of New South Wales were also banned. He had one final appearance, but not many people showed up, and the tour lost a fortune for its US-born Sydney promoter Lee Gordon, who said: 'Lenny Bruce has accused me, by bringing him to Australia, of doing the equivalent of booking Hermann Goering at a Jewish charity dance.' Elitism 00:51, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Cause of death details need added

I am not aware of how he died, the main article only lets you know he died at 41 years old. At the very bottom of the main article, there are numerous links and one of them is "Entertainers who committed suicide in their 40s", so I assume Lenny committed suicide? That is very sad & I feel for the guy, but shouldn't the C.O.D. be more obvious in his main page? [dirk diggler jnr]

• I'd like to see the OFFICIAL source that says that the EXACT cause of death was due to morphine, until then I think it should say that he ALLEGEDLY died from a morphine overdose. I'd like to clear things up.

• I've provided several online sources. [1] [2] If you're really interested, a mere $12 will get you his official death certificate. [3] I don't care $12 worth, but since I've seen no substantiated claims of foul play, so the burden of proof would be on that assertion. Wikibofh_(talk) 22:38, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

• • One of those doesn't even know what drug he overdosed on. That's a pretty solid reference. It's also a pretty solid reference to tell me how to get a death certificate without actually showing me one. I'm sure I could find a random website that has full, accurate biographal information, and also says his death was NOT from a self-administered morphine overdose. Oh wait, I actually found that the official cause of death is unknown. [4] http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/4113.html] Flannel 01:18, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

• • • I didn't say you could find his death certificate online, I said you could get it for $12, and pointed you to how to order it. You'll pardon me if I don't view cannabisculture.com and Potculture as great sources. *shrug* Wikibofh_(talk) 05:32, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

• • • I suspect that the drug isn't listed on his death certificate, it's just listed as drug overdose. We have to look at the perceived quality of the sources, and two different encyclopedias seem better than the other sources that have been noted (including mine). It would be interesting to see what his print biographies say, such as he Trials of Lenny Bruce: The Fall and Rise of an American Icon. Wikibofh_(talk) 14:08, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

• Actually, something that does not provide for conspiracy theory, and cites well regarded sources is, IMO, better. What does an authoritative source have to be for you? Would his biography count, or do we actually have to get his death certificate? You changed to this version from what had been generally accepted for over a year. The burden of proof is on you, but I try to avoid edit wars, so although I disagree, I'm leaving your version and trying to get outside input (which has been met with widespread apathy) to build consensus. Personally, I don't care about Lenny Bruce. This article showed up on my watchlist from my vandalism patrol. I think the other version is less POV and less speculative. Wikibofh_(talk) 00:45, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Is the whole article disputed or just the death section? The warning at the top of the article seems overly broad. Please consider a more appropriate tag; I refrained from adding it given the heat of this issue at the moment. Cleanr 02:40, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

• Death section. Feel free to move it. Wikibofh_(talk) 05:37, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

• • Nevermind. I removed the disputed tag and added the sectfact tag. Wikibofh_(talk) 05:51, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

• From the biography The Trials of Lenny Bruce:

In the eyes of some (like Sergeant Glenn Bachman of the Police Narcotics Sqaud), it was a heroin overdose; in the eyes of others, it was suicide, and in the eyes of still others, it was a calculated murder by someone who provided a bad batch of drugs. For Dr. Kenneth Chapman, the coroner, it [cause of death] was acute morphine poisoning caused by an accidental overdose.

pg. 340

So, official cause of death, according to the coroner, was accidental heroin overdose. Wikibofh_(talk) 21:36, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Weak Opening Line

The first sentence of this article references Mort Sahl as a contempary of Lenny Bruce. But it then fails to explain who Mort Sahl is & why we need to know that name. It is as if the writer just expects the reader to know who Mort Sahl is.

The first sentence is the introduction of the article. This article is about Lenny Bruce & I feel to reference another name in the very first sentence is just poor article structure.

• That's the beauty of Wikipedia, you can simply click on Mort Sahl's name to find out more about him. It might not be the best possible intro, but it's pretty good, and I can't think of a better intro. The other beauty of Wikipedia is you can change any problems you see, if you think you can improve it, so go ahead. Flannel 21:47, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Worth listing in Lenny's page

I brought the below to the attention of the wiki-folk who maintain Bill Hicks' wiki-page and someone was good enough to do the work and add it.. it just occurred to me that it deserves to be mentioned on Lenny's page for the same reason it deserved to be listed at Bill's page ;

• On 25 February 2004, British MP Stephen Pound tabled an early day motion titled "Anniversary of the Death of Bill Hicks" (EDM 678 of the 2003-04 session), the text of which was as follows:

That this House notes with sadness the 10th anniversary of the death of Bill Hicks, on 26th February 1994, at the age of 33; recalls his assertion that his words would be a bullet in the heart of consumerism, capitalism and the American Dream; and mourns the passing of one of the few people who may be mentioned as being worth of inclusion with Lenny Bruce in any list of unflinching and painfully honest political philosophers.

Dirk Diggler Jnr 02:47, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Lenny Bruce was also a childhood idol/hero/inspiration for Bill Hicks (as where Richard Pryor and Woody Allen) and indeed was a significant influence on Bill deciding to pursue a career in comedy.. I think that is something definitely worth noting in Lenny's page.. it shows that he (Lenny) has made a considerable impact on the world, both before and after his death, and the people that he inspired have gone on to inspire future generations. Dirk Diggler Jnr 02:55, 6 May 2006 (UTC) (we fkn love you Lenny!)

Removal of UK MP's commemoration for Hicks & Bruce = a bad thing

I think the above listed commemoration deserves to be noted in Lenny's wiki-entry. True, the tabled motion (see here [5]) was primarily about Bill Hicks but I feel the person who removed it has missed the point that many of the ideals and principles that Lenny Bruce championed overlap with many of the ideas and standards that Hicks strived to achieve and defend with his act/work (I.E. the true freedom that should be afforded to one in what is claimed to be a democracy, attacking hypocritical beliefs and questioning (possibly outdated/obsolete) traditional attitudes.. to name but three). Also, the speech given by the UK MP in the House of Commons motion may for the most part relate to Hicks but as I have illustrated above, the MP is speaking as much about Bruce as he is Hicks even though Bruce's name is only mention once. Additionally the fact that Bruce, 38 years after his death, is still being hailed as being someone who would be in a highly selective list of unflinching and painfully honest political philosophers in a motion at a leading world government's parliment is something that is surely worth noting in Lenny Bruce's wiki-entry?
I am sorry that the passage I added to his page is of x length but only mentions Lenny once, but the whole text of the motion is necessary for the Lenny Bruce mention to be fully put into context and understood.
Finally, although the full text is mostly about Bill Hicks.. the same text concedes that the work and dialogs that Bill Hicks is to be applauded for are the very same things that Lenny Bruce was doing 40 years earlier.
So for all the above reasons, I believe this text should be re-added to Lenny's legacy section. To not do so is to censor a very note worthy act of mourning, praise and recognition of Lenny Bruce's tremendous courage at standing up to a system that was in the wrong*, his very fine intellectual satire and his deeply truthful political philosophy... and censoring it just because it 'only' mentions Lenny Bruce once.

(* Lenny Bruce was not afraid [[6]])

I'm Dirk Diggler Jnr and this has been ; My Two Cents (c) 19:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to give a week or so for anyone to present their rebuttal as to why the above commemoration should not be re-added to Lenny Bruce's wikipage.. if no arguments are presented that are an improvement on why it was originally removed, I shall be re-instating it. Dirk Diggler Jnr 09:00, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Bill Hicks repeatedly denied Bruce being a very big influence on him. He said the main similarities were that both tried to be as open and honest with their audience as possible. However, Hicks denied listening to Bruce very much. He was inspired the most by Woody Allen and Richard Pryor. Bruce and Hicks were both very similar, but any reading of Hick's about the subject would clearly illustrate that while he respected Bruce, he wasn't very inspired by him.

Yes, I concede Hicks insists he wasn't inspired by Bruce.. but I feel you are missing the point, as is the person who deleted the UK MP's statement from Bruce's main page. And that point is not whether Bruce inspired Hicks.

The point is that both of them have, at least three, core beliefs that overlap and these shared principles and/or ideals form the foundations on which almost all of their acts, works and philosophies are based on.

Therefore I assert again that the above detailed MP's statement should be re-added to Lenny Bruce's main page in the 'legacy' section regardless of the fact it mentions him once and alongside Bill Hicks, as the whole point of the MP's statement is to mourn the passing of Bruce as well as Hicks (as they are both of exactly the same breed) as well as to recall, recognize and pay respects to their commendable and "unflinching and painfully honest political philosophy".

Dirk Diggler Jnr 02:14, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Posthumous Pardon

If someone wishes to include it, a decent source for the posthumous pardon of Bruce by Gov. Pataki is at

http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/12/23/bruce.pardon.ap/

Thanks for the link. However a pardon is stating that Lenny was the one who did something wrong.. the pardon should be going to the cocksuckers who had him hauled into court. Dirk Diggler Jnr 08:58, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

You can be punished for prosecuting crimes now? 72.144.60.229 05:47, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

GA nomination

This nomination is on hold for 7 days for these reasons: the lead needs expanding to summarize the article, the footnotes, refs, and need to be in standard format, the external jump needs to be converted to inline cite, and the large quote needs a footnote. Rlevse 23:30, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Failed due to non-compliance. Rlevse 23:19, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Lenny Bruce Mugshot 4-27-63.jpg

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Beat poetry

Curious that there is no mention of his work doing voiceovers with musical accompaniement, aka beat poetry. (Mind meal 11:15, 3 July 2007 (UTC))

JFK quote - citation needed

"Poor Vaughn Meader!". This quote appears in the article but the exact quote has been changed a couple of times. Need to have an attributable source for the quote or needs to be removed. --Careless hx 02:51, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Did Lenny Really Open for Nichols & May?

In Seriously Funny (2003), Gerald Nachman quotes Mike Nichols to the effect that he got to appreciate Lenny Bruce's humor watching him from back stage for six months when Lenny opened for Nichols and May. As a long time fan of Lenny's with a large collection of biographical material, this came as news to me, and also to my fellow Lenny fan friends, and Nichols has ignored my three notes mailed to him asking for details of when and where. If this episode in Lenny's life could be verified, it would make a nice addition to this entry. Nat Hentoff was not aware of this connection, when I asked him. When I phoned Nachman in 2003, he did not think the point was important enough for him to re-contact Nichols for clarification. It would be easy to conclude Nichols was "winging it" in his interview with Nachman; but if the relationship is real, it would be nice to verify and include. Phaedrus7 (talk) 20:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Animated short?

The animated short mentioned in the article, is it available anywhere? I'd love to see it :D --Ragemanchoo (talk) 23:51, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

-There are multiple copies on YouTube - search for "thank you mask man" Here's one: http://youtube.com/watch?v=CebRfSFnWGM Ste3ve (talk) 20:55, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

John Graham Green(sp?) bit?

In the documentary "Lenny Bruce Without Tears", there is a clip of him talking about a comedy album he released. It has a bit on it about one somebody named John Graham Green, who apparently blew up an airliner with 40 people on board it. Does anybody know anything about this? It doesn't appear to have a wikipedia article. --Ragemanchoo (talk) 00:00, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

That is because you are looking in the wrong place. The convicted mans name was -John "Jack " Graham- LB often made small changes to references in performances to avoid legal issues. In at least one performance of the same bit the airline became "Unity Airlines" to avoid any issues using United Airlines

try this link to Wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Gilbert_Graham —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.109.13.253 (talk) 14:34, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

First stand-up performance

"In 1947, soon after changing his last name to Bruce, he earned $12 and a free spaghetti dinner for his first stand-up performance in Brooklyn, New York. From that modest start..."

What's the source for this tidbit? Is $12 really so modest for a first time comic performance in 1947? In terms of real dollars on MeasuringWorth.com[7], that would be worth $116 (CPI) to $202 (unskilled wage) in 2009. Not a bad evening's work for a 22-year-old. Is there any reliable source for what stand-up comics got paid at that time? Perhaps, Mr. Bruce was handsomely compensated for his first gig. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clayfoot (talk • contribs) 18:54, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Grammar -- "Death and posthumous pardon"

"..bought the negatives from the photographs.."
No, it should read: "..bought the negatives from the photographers.."
--Atikokan (talk) 02:13, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Image

File:Lenny Bruce at the Fillmore.jpg, used in this article, has apparently been nominated for deletion. I suspect that by our current, heightened bar for the use of non-free images, this image no longer meets our criteria. The only likely avenue of rescue I see is if someone adds relevant commentary on the poster itself and then provides a non-free use justification on the image page. - Jmabel | Talk 23:26, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Schmuck

The article specifies that "schmuck" means "moron" in Yiddish, but Wikipedia itself notes that while this is currently the case, its original meaning was also "penis." I can't find any credible reference that verifies that "schmuck" was still used to mean "penis" by the time Bruce got arrested for it, so I'm not sure a change to the article is warranted, but I wanted to make the point here in case someone else had the reference but not the inclination. Boomshadow ^talk _contribs 17:45, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Famous "Bits"

Lenny had roughly 5 or 6 truly famous bits. I think that they deserve a rundown - at the moment none of his humour is shown on his page!

I would suggest (1) Thank You Masked Man (2) Comedian at the Palladium [superb! My number one.] (3) Religions, Inc (4) Father Flotsky's Triumph (5) How to Entertain Your Coloured Friends at Parties (6) Lima Ohio

They are just suggestions....Alanobrien (talk) 20:50, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

messed up

I am sorry I messed up this page, I tried to edit this and did something wrong, somewhat new to editing.--184.39.110.246 (talk) 19:35, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Introduction - conflating two or more obscenity charges/trials?

Looking at the introduction, it is unclear about the obscenity charges. The statement "...and his trial for obscenity, in which – after being forced into bankruptcy – he was eventually found not guilty..." is not consistent with the earlier statement (or the text below) that he was convicted and later pardoned.

From other sources, I gather that the two statements are referring to two different events, but it is not clear from the text itself. If I am correct, the intro should probably refer to his being charged multiple times, with X convictions and Y acquittals. That would make the paragraph internally consistent, and would also show up front that one reason why Lenny Bruce's legal problems are significant history is that they document a period of history when legal standards about public speech were changing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by R harris22222 (talk • contribs) 12:56, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Australia

"...and in 1962 was banned from performing in Sydney, Australia. At his first show there, Bruce took the stage, and declared "What a fucking wonderful audience" and was promptly arrested."

That's not cited, and I don't think it's entirely accurate. According to the Goldman book he wasn't banned from performing there altogether; he was scheduled to give a television interview and the Australian Broadcasting Company wouldn't allow it. He continued giving live performances in Sydney for a few days after that. (p. 374) There's no mention in the book of his being arrested in Sydney. At least one other source says he was harrassed by the cops and may have narrowly escaped being arrested for drugs, but that's all. Just a heads up, I'm going to rewrite that part. --Rosekelleher (talk) 21:09, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

"whacked out on amphetamine"

That quote appears in Graham's book, but it wasn't actually Graham who said it, it was someone named Peter Berg. --Rosekelleher (talk) 22:56, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Crime Number

The police attended Lenny's death but try as I might - the crime number that would tell us WHICH officers were there. H is x2 the potency of M BUT, even after death, it breaks down to M.

Anyone else come up against this wall? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.106.56.145 (talk) 14:03, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

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"the complaints again pertaining to his use of various obscenities."

>the complaints again pertaining to his use of various obscenities.

Could someone who knows the case cite one or two examples?

The acquittal examples are pretty mild. It is important to see how much different the guilty verdict ones were.

EDLIS Café 09:02, 1 January 2018 (UTC) EDLIS Café 09:05, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

In popular culture

Page says: "He is referenced in the Genesis song "The Broadway Melody of 1974" in the line, "Lenny Bruce declares a truce and plays his other hand." but I think it's the prior song "Fly On A Windshield" . That's where the lyric appears on my "The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway" CD anyway. Blokewiki (talk) 12:18, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

As none of this material was referenced, I thought it better to remove the section completely. Anything that can be verified to decent third-party sources can be put back. --John (talk) 12:32, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Decent third party sources for this sort of material should really be critical commmentary from a reptable source, rather than just a copy of the lyrics or whatever. I will let this remain for now, and I appreciate the effort to source it. WP:IPC may be worth a look here. --John (talk) 14:31, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I added several reviews - considering that Bruce has been dead for 46 years and how old this material is - I am amazed that I even located some reviews. It's a testimony to the continued relevance of the music, the musicians and Bruce...Modernist (talk) 14:55, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel

Lenny Bruce is featured prominently in the Amazon Original series "The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel" season 3. I'm not certain where this should go in the page.

1. https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/marvelous-mrs-maisel-season-3-luke-kirby-interview-1262032
2. https://www.washingtonpost.com/arts-entertainment/2019/12/13/marvelous-mrs-maisel-creators-explain-why-lenny-bruce-midge-maisel-bond-is-so-critical-show/
3. The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel — Preceding unsigned comment added by DracoTheDrake (talk • contribs) 01:25, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Big Mouth Strikes Again ...

... by Chumbawamba is about Lenny Bruce, too. Jezabeliberté (talk) 22:04, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

I think it's important to document that the Official Lenny Bruce website uses this article as the biography

I was glancing at some information on comic history and came across this. The biography is almost word-for-word from the page here with no attribution that I could see. Not asking for action, but making others aware in case it comes up. BusterD (talk) 15:25, 26 October 2020 (UTC)