Talk:Gebre Meskel Lalibela

Biography assessment rating comment

WikiProject Biography Summer 2007 Assessment Drive

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 08:48, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

I think this page should include something on when Gebra Maskal Lalibela's reign was. There is only one date in the text (1210) and that may not be from his reign. Also the names should be re-investigated as the Europeans seemed to struggle with them i.e Ngoni became Nguni which makes it hard to connect the Amangoni people to the whole of this new Nguni history. The name BEGWENA is derived from Ba-ko-ena meaning they are with him/her in Sotho. Although they are far apart the peoples of the african continent have a language that is similar if you are well versed in it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.21.176.70 (talk) 12:42, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Revisionism in this page

On march 19 2017 21:12 Revionism took place on this page that deviates from the accepted norm.

Here is the diff:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lalibela_(Emperor_of_Ethiopia)&diff=771150046&oldid=771135271

There are no credible sources provided that links the Churches of Lalibela to the Late Aksumite period. 2A02:A466:1107:1:8561:3D64:FBBE:D5BD (talk) 08:24, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Agreed that it is a strange edit. The editor Varavour added some dates (birth and reign), and the reader is left with the impression that the following citation would verify that date. I was able to find an online copy of the Taddesse Tamrat book at Open Library (and updated the citation), and the dates it uses do not match up with those Varavour put into the article. Maybe Varavour can come see this note here and comment about where they got those dates. Platonk (talk) 10:10, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

@The Supermind: Noticing your last edit [1] copying the dates from the lede to the infobox. Please note my commend directly above. My point is that the source does not support those dates. The dates were inserted into the article with this edit [2] which adds two sources. The Taddesse Tamrat source [3] on page 56 (I'm guessing "56n" means footnote on that page) does not mention dates for his reign, nor his birth. I have scanned prior to page 56 and up through page 62+. I have been unable to locate a source for the other citation. It would be nice to know where those dates came from. Platonk (talk) 05:48, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

@Platonk: I guess [4] might hint his reign equivalent to 1181–1121 which states "lasted forty years, spanning the end of the 12th century and the opening decades of the 13th." Another speculation is here. It details around his DOB and also Wikipedia's now existed DOB, only differing by year (which states he was born 1250s and died 1225). I don't know how to judge these speculation but you can review from Google, especially from scholar sources for verification. Thanks! The Supermind (talk) 06:37, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Late Aksumite origins of the Lalibela complex

Regarding my edits, here are sources off the top of my head for the more recent scholarship on the possible late Aksumite origin of the Lalibela churches:

• Fauvelle-Aymar, François-Xavier; Bruxelles, Laurent; Mensan, Romain; Bosc-Tiessé, Claire; Derat, Marie-Laure; Fritsch, Emmanuel (December 2010). "Rock-cut stratigraphy: sequencing the Lalibela churches". Antiquity. 84 (326): 1135–1150. doi:10.1017/S0003598X00067132.
• Bosc-Tiessé, Claire; Derat, Marie-Laure; Bruxelles, Laurent; Fauvelle, François-Xavier; Gleize, Yves; Mensan, Romain (1 November 2014). "The Lalibela Rock Hewn Site and its Landscape (Ethiopia): An Archaeological Analysis". Journal of African Archaeology. 12 (2): 141–164. doi:10.3213/2191-5784-10261.
• Phillipson, David W. (2007). "From Yeha to Lalibela: an essay in cultural continuity". Journal of Ethiopian Studies. 40 (1/2): 1–19. ISSN 0304-2243.
• Phillipson, D. W. (2012). Foundations of an African civilization : Aksum & the northern Horn, 1000 BC - AD 1300. Woodbridge, Suffolk: James Currey. pp. 227–244. ISBN 1847010881.

Hope this is helpful, and my apologies for having not included them previously.--Varavour (talk) 19:39, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Taddesse Tamrat page numbers

I found an online version of the Taddesse Tamrat book and updated the citation so readers can find it at Open Library. I tried to verify the page numbers that were already mentioned in this article, but I was unable to decipher it well enough. (History is not my forté.) Lalibela is mentioned in the index with all the page numbers, and I was able to verify some of the content concepts, but updating the page numbers was beyond my ability today. If anyone else would like to tackle it, please do. Platonk (talk) 10:16, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Oops. The ISBN alone was insufficient to find it at Open Library (there must be two entries in OL with the same ISBN). Added the OL number to the citation. Platonk (talk) 19:09, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Is he king or emperor?

The original statement in Lalibela (Emperor of Ethiopia) § Biography section says that "...which his mother took as a sign of his future reign as Emperor of Ethiopia." I cannot understand whether emperorship is permitted in Zagwe dynasty, indeed it is a kingdom. Please share decisive comments regarding this issue here. Regards!

...And I founded that Britannica gives his title and all Zagwe's monarchs "emperor". The Supermind (talk) 16:42, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 28 March 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Result:
No consensus. See no agreement below to change the parenthetical disambiguator of this article. As is usual with no-consensus outcomes, new arguments can be discovered and old ones strengthened so that another attempt may be made in a few months to garner consensus for a change in qualifier. Thanks and kudos to editors for your input; good health to all! P.I. Ellsworth - ed. ^put'r there 01:12, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

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Lalibela (Emperor of Ethiopia) → Lalibela (King of Zagwe dynasty) – I've so confused whether the title been Emperor or King, but some editors applied for king of Zagwe dynasty because the title "Emperor" officially began since Solomonic dynasty in 1270. Therefore we can say Yekuno Amlak as Emperor. The Supermind (talk) 16:54, 28 March 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 06:53, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Discussion

• No support Come with the reliable sources that support your statements. You yourself presented an reliable source that say Emperor regarding Zagwe/Lalibela. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 17:04, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

  @Dawit S Gondaria: elaborate Zagwe's monarchs as King. Hopefully you will find the argument on the internet. The Supermind (talk) 05:45, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

  @The Supermind: Please add your sources next time in the subsection below. As for the Brittanica source, it say Lalibela is an Emperor. As for your 3 other sources, none of them are actually making the argument that exclude the term Emperor to describe the Zagwe rulers. Numerous reliable sources interchangebly both use the term king and emperor. You just picked 3 sources that say Zagwe kings instead of emperors, editors can counter that with reliable sources that say Emperors for which are plenty. Come with sources that make the argument to support your proposed move.

Sources that disagree with the term Emperor/Emperor of Ethiopia for Zagwe dynasty or Lalibela

• [5]
• [6]
• [7] comment: Brittanica says Lalibela is an emperor.
• [8]

Note: WikiProject Ethiopia has been notified of this discussion. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 07:04, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

History

Lalibela history 196.188.33.72 (talk) 17:24, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Amhara support for Lalibela

@Gebrehiwot chekole: the source Hassen is verified, and refers to Sergew Hable Selassie page 265. i got this source thanks to the efforts of WP:WRE back in 2021, see diff [[9]]. I'll come back later to with a quote to supplement Hassen source with Sergew Hable Selassie. I also have Tadesse Tamrat book, and will also verify your addition [[10]]. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 09:38, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

@Gebrehiwot chekole nothing in your edits [[11]] is supported by Tadesse Tamrat source, i read several pages just in case. Here's a archived version, you only need to make a free account to read it, or log in via google account. Below is the quote from Sergew Hable Selassie Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 16:03, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

That said you're edit was frankly very misleading, and is in my opinion vandalism. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 16:03, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Quote

Lalibela, faced with continued persecution by Harbe, allied himself with the Amhara. His intention was to wage war against Harbe and to ensure their support, he promised them key positions if he succeeded in occupying the throne. Delighted with this promise, the Amhara agreed to join forces with him. Harbe, for his part, rallied behind him the seven clans of the Agaw people. In the ensuing battle Lalibela was victorious and claimed power. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 16:03, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

how could this be? at the time of Zagwe dynasty,the two semetic speaking peoples i.e amhara and tigray were power rivals Against the dynasty at all. this means at that time amahara and tigray were working against Zagwe dynasty by illigitimizing it to return their lost solomonic Dynasty. therefore amhara and tigray weren.t in support of the Zagwe dynasty at all. they were organizing themselves to remove the dynasty.

of course there was disagreement beetween st. Harbe and G/mesekel lalibela. not only between the two kings but also power rivalry within the dynasty was common in the 333 Years which the dynasty ruled Ethiopia. the power rivalry between Lalibela and Harbe was settled and Lalibela come to power based on the Agaw laws of inheritance( Brother suceeding) and this also continued as Nakutol'ab( Lalibela's brorther Harbe's son) and Yitebarek Lalibela's son respectively come to power based on the Agaw laws of inheritance until Yikuno Amlak( solomonic) king come to power and remove The Dynasty. there was no any battle between Lalibela and his brother Harbe. by the way Amhara in the Agaw language refers to soldier. not ethinicity or people. just don.t destroy history! history can.t be converted by adding Fairy tale. now a days some people are writing intentionally to destroy history. so it is not acceptable. Gebrehiwot chekole (talk) 12:14, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

@Gebrehiwot chekole: You keep going with your personal attacks despite warning [[12]], i'll have to report you for your behaviour, and for WP:VANDALISM [[13]] for including something not covered by the source. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 13:51, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

References

Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 09:38, 21 January 2023 (UTC)