Talk:LGBT rights in Poland/Archive 1

Partial cleanup - More needed

I attempted to clean up the portion on the recent conflicts with the EU, after the election of a conservative President. I also provided links to news articles in this regard. I further qualified the statement about Poland being accepting of gays, to say that Poland has been generally accepting .... I felt that this was warranted by recent events. I do wonder, but do not have specific knowledge of whether this is even true. Is Poland generally accepting of gays? Has it been historically? I assume that before the fall of the Warsaw pact is was not. After that??? Maybe someone who knows more about Polish history could help. Franklin Moore 03:47, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Poland is traditionally a conservative Catholic society and the impression I get is that it traditionally isn't accepting as a society. Having said that, I also get the impression that there is more tolerance, if not always acceptance, among urban 'elite' circles, and among younger generations. There was a relatively small 'gay pride' march in Krakow some two or three years ago where the participants were pelted with stones and bottles. There was also a protest in Warsaw in mid 2005 where gay rights activists clashed with 'family values' activists. It was reported that police arrested the gay rights (or 'pro-diversity' activists as they refered to themselves) and shielded the family values protesters from the gay rights crowd. There are some interesting statistics on the plish version of this article which I might get around to translating. They suggest that while a mojority (56%) of Poles would accept a gay neighbour, they would not accept a gay Parliamentarian (57%), co-worker(50%), supervisor at work(53%), teacher(77%), or childcare worker(86%). 38% of parents would not accept a gay child, 6% would, and 47% would 'come to terms with it'. The majority (89%) of Poles believe that homosexuality is 'not normal', and 42% believe that the law shouldn't allow gay people to engage in sexual activities (compared to 40% who believe that it should). Finally 78% believe gay people shouldn't be allowed to "publicly display their lifestyle" and 58% of people don't believe that gay people should be able to have 'public demonstrations' (I think publicznych manifestacji translates into 'public demonstrations' but could mean public gatherings. Confirmation would be appreciated) - down from 74% in 2001 The Polish page is located. Admittedly, these stats come from one opinion poll, but I think they demonstrate a lack of acceptance among Polish society. -- Adz|talk 12:39, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

"I think publicznych manifestacji translates into 'public demonstrations'" - Yes, I'm a Pole and that's correct.

Update needed. In the past I have made some edits on this page, but have admitted that my knowledge on the situation in Poland is limited, relying primarily upon statements from non-Polish sources in the EU. There have been a number of recent developments and criticism coming from EU sources which I can include. But I would prefer leaving this to those who have a more complete view, and most importantly those that speak Polish, Anyone up to the challange? Franklin Moore 21:13, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality violated!

I must state that parts of this article do violate the neutral point of view policy. There are biased opinions without any reliable references supporting them (such as that "Poland is one of the most intolerant countries") or even contradicting the facts already included in the article (see the begining of the article: "Homosexual sex was legalised in 1932 [...] Homosexuals are not banned from military service. There is no law against gays"). I strongly feel, that instead of presenting neutral point of view, some of the authors use this Wikipedia site for their private political campaign against an EU country. Please clarify this text before I raise a protest against a violation of Wikipedia's neutral-point-of-view policy. Piotr Błaszczyk, 20:28:45, 12 Dec., 2006

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.233.216.67 (talk) 19:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

but of course your country is one of the most intolerant in Europe. The figures that are cited, as well as the action of banning gay parades in your capital, speak for themselves. 89.10.18.229 23:00, 30 March 2007 (UTC)j

If you consider Poland as one of the most intolerant countries in Europe, please cite one law that is against homosexuals. In the country, all are equal. When gay parades were banned, so were right-wing parades. No one does ask anyone about his/her sexual preferences. The are more inequal social groups in Poland than gays, ie the disabled and young mothers.

Legal status

In many countries of the world, the anti-homosexuality laws were driven by church propaganda. Poland appears to have been under rather solid Catholic control. Can enforcement of anti-homosexuality from that source be cited? Digwuren 15:02, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Legal Status in Poland

1586 During the period of Nobles Commonwealth or Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (I Republic of Poland; 1569-1795) homosexuality was punished by death. The Constitution of 1586 prescribe among others death penalty for “acts against morality and the good manners” which was defined as bestiality and homosexuality. This status was kept until The Third Partition in 1795 when the laws of invaders were imposed to Polish lands.

1876 During the 19th century homosexuality was criminalised by the laws of occupying countries. In 1876 Russian Empire introduced its own criminal code (which ban male homosexuality since 1832 by Article 995 with up to five years exile to Siberia) to the Kingdom of Poland making male homosexuality a criminal offence. This prohibition was confirmed by the Russian criminal code of 1903 (since 1915 in Kingdom of Poland).

After independence in 1918, during short time between 1918-1932, old laws of three occupying powers which all of them punished homosexuality were in force. Prussian Article 175 of 1871 penal code or Reichstrafgesetzbuch (imprisonment; men only) on the West, Austrian Article 129 of 1852 Austrian Penal Code (up to five years; both sexes male and female) on the South, Russian Article 516 of 1903 Penal Code (no less than three month in prison; male anal sexual intercourse only) on the rest of the country and Hungarian Article 241 of 1878 Penal Code (up to one year; for both sexes) in the very small region near the Slovak border.

1932 In 1932 the first Polish Criminal Code after regaining independence was introduced, making the age of consent of 15 for all sexual acts, regardless of sexual orientation. However, the police used gross indecency laws to harass homosexuals. The new code, also made homosexual prostitution illegal (Article 207) and punished it with up to three years imprisonment. But new criminal code introduced in 1969 by communist regime left out this article from the code, making homosexual prostitution legal. Similar, present new penal code of 1997 is silent on the issue of homosexuality, which meant there are no legal framework for the oppression of homosexuals.

2003 Anti-discrimination laws were added to the Labour Code in 2003 (on effect 2004) which cover employment sphere only. “Equal Woman and Men Status Act” as well as “Anti-Hatred Speech Crimes Act” ware proposed in 2005. First of than failed in parliamentarian voting (in second reading), and the second one don’t appear to parliament at all.

2003 Registered partnership bill was proposed late 2003. It was passed by Senate (upper house of parliament) in 2004, but it was not put into legislation process in lower house of parliament. Similar bill (unregistered cohabitation) was proposed in 2002, but it wasn’t introduced into the parliament. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.12.171.218 (talk) 20:09, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Materials and proofs please.

--Greetings [[User:Krzyzowiec|Krzyzowiec]] (talk) 22:07, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Legalized in 1493?

"Homosexual sex was legalised in 1932" - as far as I know there has never been any anti-homosexual law in Poland, to bo exact, since 1493 when the civil jurisdiction was excluded from the church. Am I wrong? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.15.203.82 (talk) 14:20, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

emigration

For polish newspaper (i don't remeber which) Biedroń said that he's said that X thousands of Polish (no matter what orientation) emigrated and in EVERY COUNTRY (not especially in Poland) is Y% of homosexual, so from Poland emigrated X*Y gays. He said also because gays are discriminated in Poland, every polish gay was emigrating because of intolerance and there was no case that polish gay emigrate for economic reason. For me it is too stupid even for Wikipedia, where the article is started "because in my opinion every know that Poland..." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.5.162.252 (talk) 22:08, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Homosexuality as a disease

The article claims that "Homosexuality was deleted from the list of diseases in 1991.". What does that mean? Was homosexuality in fact not penalized by penal code, but were homosexuals institutionalized in psychiatric detention instead of jails? That was the treatment that many members of opposition, but also various non-conformists were getting in communist countries. Did it apply to homosexuals in Poland? Cimmerian praetor (talk) 21:46, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

B-class review

Failed for WP:POLAND. Concerns: 1) unreferenced content 2) lead instead being a summary covers unique topics 3) not current - no mentions of Tęcza (Warsaw). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:35, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Vandalism of the article on Polish Wikipedia

I have noticed a number of edits made by Andrzej 19. He or she has deleted large portions of content. --188.79.66.28 (talk) 21:38, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

This is not the right place to report this; for starters this is English not Polish Wikipedia. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:51, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

It seems there were already voices raised but they encountered even greater hostility and even more agressive deleting of content. --188.79.66.28 (talk) 19:42, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

And how is this relevant to this article? Wikipedia is not a discussion forum. If you want to take part in this project, write LGBT and Poland related articles like Tęcza. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:48, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Commercial surrogacy

Commercial surrogacy is banned in Poland (for all couples). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.173.150.193 (talk) 20:44, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

LGBT propaganda

Why is the heading of the 5th section constantly changed from 'LGBT propaganda'? The heading backed up by many sources:

• Propaganda (English Wikipedia) – "Propaganda is a form of communication aimed towards influencing the attitude of a population toward some cause or position."
• Propaganda homoseksualna (Polish Wikipedia) No English version of article – "Propaganda homoseksualna – całokształt działań podejmowanych przez środowiska LGBT zmierzających do zdobycia społecznej akceptacji dla zachowań homoseksualnych oraz poparcia dla roszczeń i postulatów wysuwanych przez organizacje LGBT." Translates to: "Homosexual Propaganda - all the activities undertaken by the LGBT community in an effort to gain social acceptance of homosexual behaviour and support for the claims and demands made ​​by LGBT organizations."
• Propaganda (Oxford English Dictionaries) – "Information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of view."
• „Parada Równości” to propaganda rozpusty (Gość Niedzielny) – "„Parada Równości” is a propaganda of immorality."

I see no reason, given these sources, to revert my edit to the page. – Plarem ^{(User talk)} 11:44, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

See NPOV. Ron 1987 (talk) 15:09, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

What does that have to do with the use of the word 'propaganda'? – Plarem ^{(User talk)} 11:38, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Propaganda is a loaded term, with a very negative. And your source is obviously condemning homosexuality, since it's ideologically opposed to it. It calles gay pride "immoral" and "propaganda", therefore cannot be objective, unless you were quoting the use of the terms, but as a name of a section, it is completely inappropriate. Again, see: NPOV--82.132.236.222 (talk) 02:07, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Constitution actually is ambiguous on the issue

Article 18 of the Constitution can be interpreted as a ban (due to its vagueness), but the lawyers question this interpretation, for the same reason

If in question, consult to understand where the problem is: http://erystyka.blox.pl/2013/01/Czy-zwiazki-partnerskie-sa-niezgodne-z-art-18.html--82.132.236.222 (talk) 02:03, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

The articles you have quoted there refer to civil partnerships (wyborcza.pl), possible loopholes in the law (gazeta.pl) and the third one is a blog, which is completely out of the question as an unreliable source and completely WP:OR. Use your common sense here: The Constitution of Poland says that "Marriage, being a union of a man and a woman, as well as the family, motherhood and parenthood, shall be placed under the protection and care of the Republic of Poland.", therefore marriage is not anything other than a union of one man and one woman, like a union of a man and a man or a man and 4 women in Poland. Sdino (talk) 14:46, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Pie charts

Why has this article got so many pie charts?! It looks ridiculous. Contaldo80 (talk) 12:20, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

To illustrate the opinion polls – Sdino (talk) 12:21, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

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Always being legal

It is claimed throughout the article many times that homosexuality was never illegal but there is absolutely no source given for this claim, it should be either sourced or removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8108:8B40:28F4:7039:69E3:649A:7810 (talk) 10:36, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

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Why keep a single sentence article?

It's the shortest stub I've seen, couldn't it be merged with some larger article?

83.142.58.162 (talk) 21:41, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Okay, that's weird. I went to LGBT history in Poland but when switching to the talk page it redirected me to this. Maybe remove the history one and link this one instead.

83.142.58.162 (talk) 21:44, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

It looks like LGBT history in Poland was once a redirect and was then changed to a stub, without changing the talk page as well. I think it can be changed back. freshacconci talk to me 01:29, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

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Homosexuality was never illegal

Since of the beginning of existence of the Polish state homosexuality was a subject to punishment under legislations adopted (copied) from Germany (with a death penalty). As well as in times of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth it was covered under "morality" provisions (it was not used terms known in the rest of Europe like aganist nature or sodomy) and it was also punished with death penalty. Even after regaining of independence in 1918 there were proposed several new penal code bills, and probably all, but one, described homosexuality as a criminal offence, but then Polish lider Piłsudski chosed the french based model of penal code bill, the only one without that provisions (enacted in 1932 and in force since 1934). And it had nothing to do with Polish tolerance at that time, when Polish society remained deeply conservative. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.51.136.158 (talk) 20:48, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

And your source is?Xx236 (talk) 07:55, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

League of Polish Families

The League of Polish Families has converted to liberalism. One of the former leaders Roman Giertych is one of the most anti-PiS activists.Xx236 (talk) 07:33, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

The League is mentioned also in Law and Justice section.Xx236 (talk) 08:27, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

he wrote a letter to the Minister of the Interior and Administration and the Minister of Justice is writing of a letter notable? MPs in Poland formulate interpellations (thousands of them), do you mean it? Is any Polish interpellation described in this Wikipedia? Xx236 (talk) 08:33, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Law and Justice

Ujazdowski and Marcinkiewicz have left the party many years ago and now they fight against it.

On 7 August 2006, Paweł Zyzak, editor in chief of a PiS magazine, Right Turn!,

On 7 August 2006, Paweł Zyzak, editor in chief of a PiS magazine, Right Turn!, - One phrase and many errors. The magazin did not represent PiS. It was published by Zyzak himself (a student) and probably firmed by PiS youth organisation. But the youth orhanization isn't a party. Xx236 (talk) 07:46, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Jarosław Kaczyński

His biography speculates about his homosexuality. Are such speculations notable and acceptable in a BLP? I have removed one source which said "I don't know". Xx236 (talk) 08:38, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Is Tęcza notable here?

The Tęcza is a Warsaw construction, the majority of Polish people has never seen it.

It isn't oficially an LGBT symbol.

You make petty criminals who destroy the construction notable. Xx236 (talk) 08:54, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Orthodox Christians

The page doesn't mention anti-LGBT opinions of Orthodox Christans in Poland (maybe influenced by Russia).Xx236 (talk) 10:12, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Anti-Catholic incidents

• Some people dind't accept the Rainbow construction next to a church.
• Recntly a group distributed in Płock edited Black Madonna of Częstochowa stickers, the best way to make angry even some Polish atheists.
• Recently a group in Gdańsk made a parody of a Catholic procession.
• Recently a group produced images of female genitals to parody Catholic pictures.
• Pasafarians made a parody of Catholic mass during Warsaw pride march.
• Many times LGBT activists use Catholic clergy dresses, especially oofensive in transgender way.Xx236 (talk) 10:43, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

However, in 2019, the ruling PIS party adopted a very critical attitude towards LGBT.

In 2018 pro-LGBT politicians won local elections in Warsaw and started a number of controversial projects.

A series of marches in conservatives cities and towns, a series of anti-Catholic incidents (see above).

Xx236 (talk) 07:33, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

It seems these "incidents" all fall within Freedom of speech (at least per the US definition), no? And I believe anti-gay rhetoric by Church figures has a rather long history. Were there any "anti-Catholic" incidents that were beyond parody and talk ? Icewhiz (talk) 07:45, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Icewhiz, please think before you write.

• Poland has its law, different than the USA. Also Israel has its law, sometimes more simi;lar to Polish one than to the US one (Holocaust revisonism is illegal).
• When Pioetr Rybak has been punished (3 months of prison) you haven't defended his freedom of speech. So we have two fredoms and Icewhiz decides which one is OK. When I visit a Jewish cemetary I'm oblidged to respect Jewish religion, to wear a kipa. It's against my freedom. Xx236 (talk) 08:05, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed) Jackgrimm1504 (talk) 16:38, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

No protections for education

My edits removing education from list of protection areas (1st edit, 2nd edit) are constantly reverted by some users (1st revert by user Panda2018 0, 2nd revert by user Ron 1987).

LGBT people have full protection in education like any other citizen. What additional protection for education should exist for LGBT people in Poland?

Psc edits (talk) 09:47, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps rather than each side claiming this, we could provide a WP:RS to prove it? I know it is a negative claim in some sense, but it should be OK to find one anyway and place it there. Elizium23 (talk) 13:55, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Merger discussion

Please refer: Talk:LGBT_ideology-free_zone#Merger_proposal. There is a proposal to incorporate the smaller article LGBT_ideology-free_zone into this article, so as to expand the topic already contained under the existing heading LGBT_rights_in_Poland#"LGBT_free_zones". Please study the Talk page discussions, and add your vote if you wish under the Merger Proposal heading. Chrisdevelop (talk) 15:10, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

"LGBT-free zones"

The notion that supposedly "municipalities declared themselves LGBT-free zones" is not excatly true. The idea of "LGBT-free zone" came from stickers included with one edition of an pro-PiS newspaper "Gazeta Polska" in June 2019. The "LGBT-free zones" supposedly declared by some municipalities refer to two documents, which were accepted as resolutions by these municipalities: "The Charter of Family Rights" and "Resolution against the LGBT ideology". The first one focuses on praising "family values" and claims their importance for social policies. It doesn't even mention LGBT at all in any context. The "Resolution" does mention LGBT: it declares an opposition "to promotion of the ideology of the LGBT movement" and to "political corectness". However even this one does not contain any statements of creating an "LGBT-free zone" or any other statements which be in any way hostile to LGBT people. Both types of these resolutions were labelled as "LGBT-free zones declarations" by media and some politicians, but it should be notet that it doesn't really correspond to their actual text. The actual resolutions - in Polish - can be found under this link: "Atlas nienawiści" ("Atlas of hate")

--Monsieur empereur (talk) 10:36, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

@Monsieur empereur: Thanks for the info. We generally follow what WP:RS state, in this case media and scholars. Many of them do use the phrase "LGBT-free zone", and in a recent discussion some evidence have presented that that term is also used in Polish-language media.[1] So that's what we have. Other than that, AFAIC we can certainly include some of the text of these declarations as well as their background, as long as RS are provided for that purpose. François Robere (talk) 10:47, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Please also refer to the satellite article discussion at Talk:LGBT_ideology-free_zone regarding name change and possible merger with this article. Chrisdevelop (talk) 12:22, 31 July 2020 (UTC)