Talk:Knap Hill

Map on Commons

Available on Commons is File:Knap Hill area from OS map 1961.png, which is a section of the OS map from 1961, centred on Knap Hill. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:27, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Sandboxing some updates

I am working on a new version of the article in a sandbox; if anyone is interested, either to collaborate or just to comment, please let me know on my talk page. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:08, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Now moved to the article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:51, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

To do

Still to do:

• Add notes on the boundary ditches from Cunnington and Connah
• Mention the flint knapping cluster from Cunnington, and Connah's analysisPossibly mention the width of the causeways
• Cover the Gathering Time analysis for dating both this enclosure in particular and the positiion within the overal sequence of these enclosures
• Place in context of Creation of Monuments discussions -- e.g. the question of whether the enclosure was deliberately built to be visible from the north.
• Convert measurements, MOS review, copyedit pass, WL pass
• Write lead

It would also be good to find out about the current status -- ownership, visiting, and so forth. The Historic England registry might have some of this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:07, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Comments by Dudley

• In the infobox, I do not like "Architectural style: British pre-Roman Architecture". The idea that there was a pre-Roman style does not make sense. Also, it links to English architecture, and referring to prehistoric England is anachronistic. Isn't causewayed enclosure the style?

  Switched to "causewayed enclosure"; the infobox predates my involvement with the article and I didn't notice that. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:03, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

• I think it would be helpful to explain what a causewayed enclosure is in the lead. You link to it, but it is so fundamental to the article that it should be there.

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:19, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

• I do not think "segmented ditches" would convey much to me if I did not know (from Time Team!) what a causewayed enclosure is. There is a fuller explanation at [1] which you could adapt - e.g. a ditch which is interrupted by frequent breaks or causeways. Dudley Miles (talk) 21:13, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

  I've changed the lead from "segmented ditches" to "ditches interrupted by gaps, or causeways"; and at the first use in the body I made it "segmented ditches (that is, ditches interrupted by gaps, or causeways, of unexcavated ground)" so that I can use "segmented" from that point on -- I think it's a concise way to refer to them, once it's defined. Does that work? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:06, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

• It looks fine to me now. Dudley Miles (talk) 08:30, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

• You say in the lead that Knap Hill is the causewayed enclosure, and in the main text that "the main archaeological site at Knap Hill is a causewayed enclosure". It is not clear whether the later earthwork is part of Knap Hill or another site in the same area.

  I'm going to have to think about how to deal with this, probably before I go on to your other points. The problem is that "Knap Hill" refers to the hill, and is also used in discussions of causewayed enclosures as a shorthand way of referring to the archaeological site. I'll see if I can unobtrusively make this clearer to the reader. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:05, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

  I've now had a go at clarifying this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:19, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

• Most of the lead paragraph is about other earthworks. I suggest devoting the first paragraph to an explanation of causewayed enclosures and a description of the site, and move the comments about other sites to a fourth paragraph of the lead.

  Good idea; done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:19, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

• "a 92% chance that the ditch was filled by between 3525 and 3220 BC." I do not understand what "by between" means - possibly later but not earlier?

  This is compressed from more details in the source. Here's what the source says: "On the basis of the limited number of measurements available, the primary fill of the Knap Hill ditch may have accumulated by 3620-3575 cal BC (3% probability...) or 3525-3220 cal BC (92% probability), probably by 3505-3495 cal BC (2% probability) or 3445-3330 BC (66% probability)". I interpret this to mean the estimates are for the end of the accumulation of the primary fill. The source also says "Connah's careful stratigraphic observation and naturalistic sections make it clear that the ditches, once dug, were left to silt naturally", which eliminates the possibility that the ditches were immediately filled after material was placed in them at the time they were dug (which is the case with some of these enclosures, I gather). How about if I change it to "a 92% change the ditch was silted up by..."? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:32, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:23, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

• "and this was taken advantage of by the Gathering Time project" I do not like "taken advantage of", but that may just be personal preference.

  Rephrased. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:32, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

• "They are characterized" You have switched from singular in the previous sentence to plural "They".

  I was trying to avoid repeating the phrase "causewayed enclosure" too many times, but I think you're right that it reads oddly. Fixed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:44, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

• "In the report on the excavation at Knap Hill". Maybe "In a 1912 report on the excavation at Knap Hill".

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:24, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

• "They may have been seasonal meeting places, used for trading cattle or other goods such as pottery" Maybe "Other suggestions are that they may have been seasonal meeting places, used for trading cattle or other goods such as pottery"

  I'm not sure about this -- I think there's so much uncertainty that I don't want to imply that any one explanation actually excludes the other explanations. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:44, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

• I am assuming that you are listing the ideas put forward by different archaeologists and I think you need to make this clear that it is not your own editorialising. You can add the point that the explanations are not mutually exclusive. Dudley Miles (talk) 08:30, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

  I added "and many suggestions have been made by researchers" at the start of the list of ideas; does that do it? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:44, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

• "they are one of the most common types of early Neolithic site from western Europe" "in western Europe"?

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:44, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

• "They were built in the early Neolithic, which began at different times in different parts of Europe: the dates range from before 4000 BC in northern France, to shortly before 3000 BC in northern Germany, Denmark and Poland." You appear to switch from the date of the start of the Neolithic to the date of the first enclosures.

  I was trying to summarize the source, which says "Causewayed enclosures are typical of the Chasséen, Matignon, Peu-Richard, and Noyen cultures of northern France and adjacent countries (from the late fifth millennium), the Michelsberg culture of western Germany and eastern France (late fifth and beginning fourth millennium BC), the Windmill Hill culture of southern England (first part of the fourth millennium BC), the Wartberg culture of central eastern Germany (the middle of the fourth millennium BC), and the Funnel Beaker culture of the north European plain (the second part of the fourth millennium BC)." The dates are for the appearance of causewayed enclosures within the Neolithic, not the Neolithic itself. What if I make it "...the dates during which causewayed enclosures where constructed range from..."?

• I think the problem is "Neolithic, which began". This implies that you are talking about the date of the Neolithic, not the enclosures. As you have referred to the early Neolithic in the previous sentence you could delete it here and have "They began at different times in different parts of Europe:" Dudley Miles (talk) 18:51, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

• Yes, good idea. Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:06, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

• More to follow. Dudley Miles (talk) 21:51, 7 April 2020 (UTC)
• I think that any article about a Scheduled Monument should include the information that it is listed, cited to the Historic England record. Knap Hill is unusual in having no details in the listing at [2], and surprising in view of the site's importance, but I think it should still be in the article and also in Category:Scheduled Ancient Monuments in Wiltshire. (The word "Ancient" is technically incorrect as it is not in the official designation.) I have added the Knap Hill category in commons to this category.

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:59, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

• I would prefer spelling out the two meanings of Knap Hill. E.g. in the lead replace " At the top of the hill is a causewayed enclosure" with "Knap Hill is also the name of a causewayed enclosure". This should save the need to spell out when switching between different uses later on.

  Done, in a note, to avoid breaking up the flow, and because it seems a parenthetical sort of comment. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:59, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

• "The Neolithic causewayed enclosure at the top of Knap Hill" Perhaps "The causewayed enclosure called Knap Hill"

  With the note (above) I think this is now unnecessary. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:59, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

• "from seven feet deep and ten feet wide at the west end of the section, to eight feet deep and only eighteen inches wide at the east end" This is not quite right. She says ten feet and eighteen inches wide at the bottom.

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:23, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

• "The discovery of a second enclosure, to the northeast of the original target of their excavation, complicated the Cunningtons' work.[19] They labelled the new enclosure the "Plateau Enclosure" to distinguish it from the "Old Camp"" I do not think you need to have this in the middle of the discussion of the old enclosure. It would be easier for the reader if you moved it to the next paragraph.

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:29, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

• You seem to imply that the Cunningtons were show that the causewayed ditch did not go around the whole enclosure, but it would be helpful to spell this out.

  Currently the article says "They also made cuttings along the southern edge of the hilltop to determine if a ditch existed there which was no longer visible on the surface, and found two short ditch sections at the eastern corner"; is that not enough? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:37, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

• "A 6th-century Saxon iron sword" I assume Saxon was the term she used, but I think Anglo-Saxon would be clearer in modern usage.

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:23, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

• "It was apparent that the building had been erected after the plateau enclosure had been built, but Cunnington found no other evidence that would help determine its date." Cunnington says 17C or earlier, but it could not have been earlier if it contained 17C pottery. Maybe she wrote earlier in error for later?

  I would hesitate to second-guess a source on something like this. For example, suppose she meant that the building could have been earlier but was occupied in the 17th century? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:39, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

• More to follow. See also replies to your replies above. Dudley Miles (talk) 11:28, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Dudley, I'll get to the rest of your comments probably tonight (I have to get to work now) but I have a question. I asked my brother-in-law, who's an archaeologist (though not expert on this period) to review the article, and he commented that it was hard to identify which causeway or ditch was meant by e.g. "second ditch (counting clockwise from the left)". I've expanded the captions, so the Cunnington's map caption now makes it clear that the dotted lines represent the causeways. Is this enough to make it easy for the reader to tell what is meant? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:29, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

• I agree that it is sometimes difficult to be certain which area you are referring to, and I do not see an easy solution unless you add your own labels to the Cunningham map, but one solution is to delete the specifications which may be unclear. They will not be important for most readers, and anyone who wants more detailed information can check the source.

  Good idea; done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:23, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

• It has only just occurred to me that - unless I have missed them - you do not give overall dimensions of the causeswayed enclosure and other features. I think this is important. They could go in the infobox as well.

  I don't think I have a source for this, and I'd rather not put ruler to paper to come up with my own estimate. There's a scale on the 1912 map, and Connah gives a one-acre square for comparison on the 1965 map; does that help? I could add to the caption that the square is about 70 foot to a side. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:50, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

• "The Cunningtons cleared a 54 foot long stretch" I think it would be better to say "excavated", as "cleared" would now be taken to just mean removal of surface rubbish.

  Done.

• "he potsherds may not indicate that the barrow is of Neolithic date since the sherds would have been present on the site at the time the barrow was constructed." I think "would have been present" is too definite. I would say "may have been present".

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:23, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

• "In addition to the Windmill Hill ware, fragments from seven or eight pots of Beaker ware were found. Connah also found some Romano-British pottery in his cuttings, including four Samian sherds, one of which could be dated to the late 1st century AD. Some later medieval pottery fragments could not be accurately dated." This needs clarification as it implies that Knap Hill was not Neolithic at all, but medieval.

  I'm not sure I see what the problem is here, but would it help to rephrase the last sentence as "Some pottery fragments could not be accurately dated beyond identifying them as medieval"? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:51, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

• My point is that you seem to say that the fill generally contained later pottery, which would not be the case with a ditch which had silted up in the Neolithic and remained undisturbed ever since. Presumably the later pottery is in one area where an intrusive hole had been dug, probably during the 17C occupation, but this should be clarified. Dudley Miles (talk) 08:30, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

  I made it "Some later medieval pottery fragments, found in the upper layers of the cuttings, could not be accurately dated" to clarify that the medieval pottery wasn't from the same level as the older finds. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:48, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

• "the ditch had silted up by between 3525 and 3220 BC". "by between" again.

  Now "silted up at some time between"; is that better? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:33, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

• It would be helpful to have a summary section at the end of the article. Dudley Miles (talk) 15:21, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

  Not sure what you're looking for here -- I think of the "Site" section as the summary of the findings of the investigations. What would you put in a summary that's not in the Site section? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:01, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

• How about moving the last paragraph of the site section to a summary section at the end and expanding with more comments by archaeologists - if available? Dudley Miles (talk) 08:30, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

  That paragraph was certainly intended as a summary, but I felt it made more sense appended to the site description, since it's a discussion of the site as a site, rather than of any individual details. I don't really have any other discussions of it specifically, though I'll have another look through Google Scholar and see what else there is. So I'm not sure yet that a separate section is useful. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:57, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

  Another look through Google Scholar convinced me there's nothing else specifically about this site. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:47, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Dudley Miles: I've replied to everything above, in some cases with questions. Thanks -- these comments were extremely helpful and have really improved the article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:01, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

• The Pastscape page on the site at [3] gives the area and clarifies that the segmented ditch was probably but not certainly incomplete. It also gives a more exact date for the site, although that appears to be their interpretation of the Gathering Time findings. Dudley Miles (talk) 08:30, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

  Yes, that looks like it's taken from Gathering Time. I see it has the area, so I added that; I'll follow up on their footnotes over the weekend and may switch that to a book source -- looks like it might be from The Creation of Monuments, which I have. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:56, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

  Their citation is to Creation of Monuments, but I don't see it in any of the pages they cite, so I'll leave it cited to the web page. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:53, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Dudley, I think I've dealt with everything now. Do you have any other comments? I'm going to take this to FAC but don't want to nominate it if you still have comments. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:41, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

I will take another look. One point is that unless I have missed it you have not covered the Pastscape statement that the segmented ditch was probably but not certainly never continuous. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:48, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

I think I skipped it because I felt that description would have had to depend on the excavation reports, but you're right that as a summary statement it should be pointed out that there is not absolute proof the enclosure is deficient along the southern edge. I've added it "but no ditch or bank has yet been found along the southern edge of the hilltop" in the "Site" description; does that cover it? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:17, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

I understood them to be saying that it is believed that there was no southern ditch, but it is not certain because it could have eroded away due to the steep slope in the area, but that may be SYNTH (or my wrong deduction). Dudley Miles (talk) 11:29, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

I think that would be straying into SYNTH. I don’t recall any of the sources speculating along those lines. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:11, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Further comments

• I do not agree that the information that Knap Hill refers to the hill and the enclosure should be in a footnote. In my opinion it is too important for understanding the article, but we may have to agree to disagree on this.

  I don't have a source that says this, which is probably why I'm nervous about putting it in the body of the article -- it's obvious if you read the sources, but it would be hard to cite. I've taken it out of the note and put it in parentheses at that point in the article; does that work? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:51, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

• I think it may be confusing to describe the hill as a promontory. OED defines it as "A point of high land which juts out into the sea or another expanse of water". Merriam-Webster has an alternative definition "a prominent mass of land overlooking or projecting into a lowland". On either definition it is land which projects from, but is not higher than, a ridge over lowland or water. However, lower down you say that Knap Hill (in its meaning as an enclosure) is on a prominent hill. You also refer to hills to the east and west, with a narrow neck of land to one of them. I would not describe the central hill as a promontory, even if the neck of land and Golden Ball Hill is at the same height as Knap Hill, which is not clear.

  I think "promontory" is from one of the sources, but since I mainly used it to avoid saying "Knap Hill is a hill on..." I've just rephrased it to "Knap Hill lies on...". Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:53, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

• "The hilltop also contains the remains of a Romano-British settlement, along with some evidence of occupation in the 17th century. An Anglo-Saxon sword was found in the smaller enclosure" It is not clear that the settlement and the smaller enclosure are the same. Perhaps "The hilltop also contains the remains of a Romano-British settlement on an adjoining smaller area called the plateau enclosure".

  Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:37, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

• " They were constructed in a short time, which implies significant organization since the land may have had to be cleared which would have required substantial labour." Why "may have"? Would not digging the ditches have always required substantial labour?

  Clarified. Not sure why I hedged on this; the source is pretty definite. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:41, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

• "upland-oriented enclosure" Is there an article which could be linked to to explain this term?

  Not that I'm aware of -- the rest of the sentence (after the colon) is intended as an inline explanation. Do you think more is needed? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:59, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

• I cannot see where you have added the area. Should it not be in the site section?

  It's in the infobox, but I've now added it to the site section too. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:37, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

• "complicated the Cunningtons' work.[20] They labelled the new enclosure the "Plateau Enclosure" to distinguish it from the "Old Camp".[20][29] It was clear to Cunnington" Here and elswhere you switch between "the Cunningtons" and "Cunnington" without explaining who or why. Another example is "Cunnington found pottery sherds in the long bank that she dated to Roman times". Is it known that she found and dated the pottery alone, not with here husband?

  The problem is that the excavation was done by both of them, but the papers are by her. My intention was to have anything referring to the dig or finds be attributed to both of them, and any conclusions or discussion to be attributed to just Maud Cunnington. I've just gone through again to make this consistent. I'm not sure what more could be done about this -- the conclusions really can't be attributed to Benjamin, and the dig was definitely by both of them. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:37, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

• "mixing the relics" Relics is an odd term.

  I was trying to find a term that included the pipes and any other evidence, but I switched it to "sherds" since that makes it clear what's going on. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:37, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

• You mention that the medieval pot was found in the upper levels, but what about the Bronze Age Beaker ware and the Romano-British pottery? Were they in the ditches of the causewayed enclosure and if so does that indicate later occupation?

  Connah gives detailed stratigraphic charts and tables, and as a result I think he skips some descriptive text, expecting the reader to just review the charts and tables. I don't really want to say something like "Connah didn't think the Beaker ware was in conflict with the Neolithic date because the stratigraphy was consistent with his interpretation". The paragraph on Beaker ware (which was actually written by Isobel Smith; it seems to have been common to have other contribute short paragraphs under their own names in a longer paper) simply says "their stratified positions are shown in the table". I was hoping that the reader would assume this was the case; do you think I have to call this out somehow? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:47, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

• Sorry to come up with these, but you will know that you notice different things on a second reading. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:47, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

  Absolutely; happens to me all the time. Thanks again; will look through and respond probably later today. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:33, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Dudley: I've responded to all your points above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:00, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Final comment

• I think the position regarding the Beaker, Romano-British and medieval pottery is clarified in the final paragraph of Connah 1965 on page 22. They are all in upper levels, Beaker from transient visits, Romano-British relating to plateau enclosure occupation, medieval from occupation in the vicinity. Fowler on p. 14 says that the medieval fragments may all have come from one vessel, which I think is worth stating. An archaeologist would conclude that it was probably someone passing through who dropped a vessel, although it would be SYNTH to spell it out. BTW I think refs 57 and 58 could be combined. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:05, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

  Added a little and combined footnotes as suggested. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:26, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks again for a very thorough and helpful review. I'm going to go ahead and nominate at FAC, but if course if you see more issues please let me know. Thanks. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:26, 13 April 2020 (UTC)