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Latest comment: 4 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion
The first sentence of the article says that the dish is known as "kiwi dip" or "onion dip" - shouldn't the article be named one of these names? And the other name could be a redirect here? "Kiwi onion dip" doesn't seem to be a name that's used for this dish at all. I've always known it as "onion dip".
MurielMary (talk) 09:25, 28 April 2020 (UTC)Reply
It definitely shouldnt be named 'onion dip'. Kiwi onion dip is a type of onion dip, but the onion dip eaten in every other country isn't kiwi onion dip. As for "kiwi dip" vs "kiwi onion dip", kiwi onion dip appears to give more clarity, sounds a bit formal, and also it is the term used in the majority of sources. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 11:32, 9 May 2020 (UTC)Reply
I didn’t grow up with it so can’t claim a lifetime of use, but it’s known to me as onion dip. With regards to your three arguments, Apples&Manzanas (clarity, formal, common use), only the last one is of relevance to Wikipedia. If “clarity” cannot be achieved with an article name, we use disambiguation. Formality is of no relevance. What matters is WP:COMMONNAME. I agree that the current article name is not the best. If we can’t achieve consensus through discussion, we need to initiate a move request. Schwede66 07:20, 10 May 2020 (UTC)Reply
Apples&Manzanas' Reply:
If it is to be called "onion dip" then this article has no purpose and should just redirect into French onion dip with its content merged. Saying "to me it's known as onion dip", well yeah, because it's a type of onion dip. But that's kind of like saying that a hamburger from a local restaurant is simply known as a hamburger to me, if someone is going to write an article about "Fred's Restaurant's Hamburger" they can't just call the article "Hamburger", because it's discussing a specific type of Hamburger. Hummus dip is always known as hummus dip to me, but if someone is going to write an article about a special variety of hummus only found in Palestine, they can't just call the article "hummus", regardless of whether locals call it that.
As it stands, Onion dip is already a redirect to French onion dip. You can't only consider what is the common name to you, but you also need to consider what is the common name to the rest of the world.
Calling this article "onion dip" immediately begs for disambiguation and misleads any reader from outside of New Zealand, and potentially misleads readers from inside New Zealand as well. For a couple of reasons: (A) it makes it sound as though NZ invented onion dip or something like that (which it didn't), (B) it makes it sound like kiwi onion dip and onion dip are synonymous (which they aren't), (C) it also ignores the fact that not all onion dips eaten in New Zealand are Kiwi onion dips.
As for you saying my argument about clarity has no relevance to wikipedia, this is false. WP:Article titles#Deciding on an article title says "recognizability" (aka clarity) and "precision" (aka clarity) are explicitly two of the relevant factors when choosing an article title.
As for you saying that formality has no relevance, WP:Writing better articles#Tone says "articles and other encyclopedic content should be written in a formal tone."
In any case, the majority of citations in the article use the exact term "kiwi onion dip", so i can't see the problem with the article's title. Seems weird you'd want to initiate a move request when the major sources giving Kiwi onion dip notability are using the exact term "kiwi onion dip". One source uses the term "NZ Onion Dip", which effectively means the same thing as "Kiwi onion dip".
Update: here are more sources using the term "kiwi onion dip", which aren't included in the article: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13. So basically, even ignoring the arguments about clarity and so on, almost every source seems to call it Kiwi onion dip anyway...And then the ones included in the article already: 14, 15, 16. I really struggle to see the case for initiating a move discussion by any stretch of the imagination. Apples&Manzanas (talk) 11:24, 10 May 2020 (UTC)Reply
